perceptions of abuse

*this is not another thread about abusive BDSM relationships, i promise*

i had to sit through a workshop today on abusive relationships for one of my classes. part of the workshop was about confronting someone who you percieve may be in an abusive relationship. that got me thinking.

several times i have been confronted by friends about being in an abusive relationship. these wernt just random people off the street, but close friends i felt comfortable enough with to share the basics of my relationship with them. i dont tell many people, and when i do i keep the details to myself for several reasons, but the basics i will share with people i have become very close with and trust, or people im living with. every once in a while i get the unexpected reaction of "you must be in an abusive relationship" and then i have to try to explain that perception away as best i can.

this happened most notible with a friend whose mother works for planned parenthood, thus he has been steeped in relationship abuse knowledge for a long time. everything i did to try to change his mind was met with "thats what someone who was being abused would say".

the most tramatic time this happened was this past summer with my old therapist. years of built up trust were destrpyed by her reaction (if you really want to know about it, there is an old thread about it, but im not going to drag it up here).

so the question is this:
for those of you who have trusted people enough to tell them, or are out about your BDSM completly, what do you say when you are confronted with accusations of abuse?
"fuck off" works well for someone who you never want to see again, but what about for your friends?
do you have a line that you use in that situation?
if you have ever found yourself in a similiar situation, is there any way that you have found that works well to convince close friends or family that you are not an abuser/being abused?

I believe this might be my first official "song lyrics" post. My only excuse defense is that the lyrics really do apply to the question at hand.

"Ain't Nobody's Business if I Do"

There ain't nothing I can do, or nothing I can say,
Some folks will criticize me.
So I'm gonna do just what I want to anyway,
And don't care if you all despise me.

If I should take a notion
To jump into the ocean,
It ain't nobody's business if I do.

If I go to church on Sunday
And I shimmy down on Monday,
It ain't nobody's business if I do.

And if my friend ain't got no money
And I say, "All right, take all of mine honey,"
It ain't nobody's business if I do.

If I lend her my last nickel
And it leaves me in a pickle,
It ain't nobody's business if I do.

I would rather my gal would hit me
Than to haul right up and quit me.
It ain't nobody's business if I do.

I know that she won't call no copper
If she gets beat up by her poppa.
It ain't nobody's business if I do, Lord no.
Well, it ain't nobody's business if I do.

by Porter Grainger and Everett Robbins

I think in situations like this (and not limited to BDSM, but also religion, politics etc.), you will always find people who have set ideas about certain things they think they know but are not interested in listening to it from someone elses perspective or reality...to try and convince them otherwise is usually fruitless. For one thing, mostly they see your efforts to get them to see it your way as further proof you are not entirely comfortable with what you are professing to believe and are just trying to get their approval to make you feel better in your misery/misguidance.

For me, if I think there is a sliver of hope I will present a basic outline and leave the rest to them. If they ask firther questions which are not from a standpoint of being confrontational or aggressive, I will perhaps explain further...if not and they continue to insist they are right I will either let it go, or point out it is my right to make choices which are right for me, just as it is for them to make their choices, and that we respect each others right to do so. It doesn't always stop them but I am past an age when I need their approval and so can remove myself from it emotionally a lot easier. I have had a few times in my life when I have had occasion to learn this the hard way, so now it is a lot easier, and often when people see you are not reliant on them for their approval or support, they will think twice about what you have said and sometimes begin to see you are stable enough to know what you are talking about.

Catalina

Is this based on details that you share, or marks/bruises? If it's the former, I'd try being very careful about what you share with others. If it's the latter, frankly, I'd say, look, I like it a little rough, and then give them a big smile.

based on details i share. and i am already very cuatious with who i share what with. this thread really refers to the people that have earned your trust yet reacted in an unexpected way, not people who overhear parts of a conversation.

for those of you who have trusted people enough to tell them, or are out about your BDSM completly, what do you say when you are confronted with accusations of abuse?
"fuck off" works well for someone who you never want to see again, but what about for your friends?
do you have a line that you use in that situation?
if you have ever found yourself in a similiar situation, is there any way that you have found that works well to convince close friends or family that you are not an abuser/being abused?

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Good question, mis.

i have two close friends that are feminist/lesbian/vanilla. We talk pretty openly about our lives, and the first time i mentioned "liking it rough," i was met with the same accusations of allowing abuse etc. Added in that we were also discussing being submissive, and i got a lecture about how women like me are putting "us" back in the "dark ages" of sexuality. What i tried to explain is the concept of informed consent and that is my choice to submit to a particular person. Nothing else is going on that makes me "submit" out of fear, force, etc...

i understand their concern when i tell them things though. i went through a horribly abusive relationship with my ex-girlfriend and i think that will always be in the back of their mind. They have a strange way of showing it at times, but i know they only question because they care.

Mostly for us, we just don't bother telling anyone, unless they ask (as in they have picked up on something and obviously know enough to pick up those cues), AND we trust them as well as feel close enough to verify their suspicions....but even then, we don't go into any details as it is not necessary. I look at it as any other intimate relationship....people know you are in a relationship with someone you class as significant, they know or assume you have sex, but that doesn't mean you then have to tell them all the details, what positions you prefer, personal anatomical details, how often etc., so why feel compelled to share the intimacy of being D/s as opposed to mainstream? Even though it is the fabric of our relationship, the fact we are in love and together is all anyone needs to know...sharing with them has no relative or positive outcome even if they are accepting of our choice.

Catalina

HottieMama said:

Good question, mis.

i have two close friends that are feminist/lesbian/vanilla. We talk pretty openly about our lives, and the first time i mentioned "liking it rough," i was met with the same accusations of allowing abuse etc. Added in that we were also discussing being submissive, and i got a lecture about how women like me are putting "us" back in the "dark ages" of sexuality. What i tried to explain is the concept of informed consent and that is my choice to submit to a particular person. Nothing else is going on that makes me "submit" out of fear, force, etc...

i understand their concern when i tell them things though. i went through a horribly abusive relationship with my ex-girlfriend and i think that will always be in the back of their mind. They have a strange way of showing it at times, but i know they only question because they care.

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There is that point of view amongst some feminists. All you can do is say that you are making an informed, consensual choice.

Coming from a somewhat different perspective (i get the 'you must have been abused when you were a kid to be fucked up enough to enjoy inflicting pain on people' or the 'why do you hate men?'), i think acknowledging that your friends are making those comments out of concern for you, and thanking them for caring about you is a good start. Then, I usually go into 'dirty smile' territory, suggesting how hawt and wet-inducing what i do is, which tend to 1) make them a little uneasy about poking deeper into my private life and 2) make them realize that i'm quite happy about being a perv.

intothewoods said:

There is that point of view amongst some feminists. All you can do is say that you are making an informed, consensual choice.

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All feminists aren't that way, though. I'm about as rabid as you can get, but, to me, feminism has always meant that everyone should be able to do what they want (within the law, of course) without reproach from others, male or female.

I have found, though, that people seem to respond better to the S&M side of things than they do the D/s side. God knows why. My closest friends understand the things I need, but, admittedly, I have some pretty abnormal friends.

The best advice I have is to focus more on the "I like rough sex" aspect than the "I like to submit (or dominate)" aspect. For some reason, masochism is seen as more acceptable than submission. If all else fails, lay on the sarcasm and say, "Yes, I'm being abused. It's horrible and awful, and you can look at me and tell I'm going to die any day now," and let it go at that.

It sucks that you think you can trust people sometimes, and they act like asshats.

Out of our close friends.. only a few know that we're polyamorous. But we told two of them in the beginning so that when/if they saw me spending time alone with another one of our friends, they wouldnt think I was cheating on Malin and vice versa. We wanted to head that right off. Right after the first time Master visited, our friend guessed right away who my visitor had been and the fact she "liked it rough" helped with her being understanding.

Now, my other friend, knows about Master but doesnt know he's my Master. It was hard enough for her to understand that Malin and I had opened our relationship to other lovers without throwing in that aspect. I dont think she thinks people who are into BDSM are into being abused.. but it does make me think.

No one else close to us would understand the choices we've made at all, so we dont tell them.

Barring one very unfortunate exception, I have had perfectly fine experiences sharing parts of what we do. In most cases, my friends are open-minded types, so they don't mind. I'm dominant socially as well as sexually, so no one is surprised when I discuss anything like that.

Begin me helps. I'm a little on the big and scary side. It's like a very good gay friend of mine said, "It's really easy to come out of the closet when you're 6'5" and weight 350lbs. Everyone says 'Oh, really? That's great...' and nobody gives you any problems".

I would personally think that it is societal bias. The Dom is seen as something of a brute, monster, villain, whatever, while the sub is seen as the victim. So they talk to the subs about abuse while they simply shy away from the Doms in fear/disgust.

In short, no one has had the balls to tell me that what I do is somehow abusive or wrong. *shrug*

off the top of my head i can only think of EG who is completly out about his lifestyle, but is there anybody else who doesnt choose to keep it hidden? how do you react to cries of abuse, if you get any? id imagine your more likely to since you dont pick and choose who knows what about the type of relationship it is.

calling EG, come in EG

I think I'm fairly open about things, but I don't look for a reason to discuss it. I don't turn the spines of my "Jeux Des Dames Cruelles" or "Queer Looks" or Doris Kloster coffee table books inward, but I also don't necessarily have 'em on the coffee table.

And that is a perfect metaphor for how I am about my non-mainstreamness come to think of it.

As for being out/not I don't think many other people on the board have had their sexuality called to the carpet by the innocuous question...

so, what do you do?

I remember losing track of who among my friends knew I freelanced and who knew what I freelanced as, so I just talked shop in general terms.

BiBunny said:

All feminists aren't that way, though. I'm about as rabid as you can get, but, to me, feminism has always meant that everyone should be able to do what they want (within the law, of course) without reproach from others, male or female.

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Oh yeah, baby, I'm with you!

I have found, though, that people seem to respond better to the S&M side of things than they do the D/s side. God knows why. My closest friends understand the things I need, but, admittedly, I have some pretty abnormal friends.

The best advice I have is to focus more on the "I like rough sex" aspect than the "I like to submit (or dominate)" aspect. For some reason, masochism is seen as more acceptable than submission. If all else fails, lay on the sarcasm and say, "Yes, I'm being abused. It's horrible and awful, and you can look at me and tell I'm going to die any day now," and let it go at that.

It sucks that you think you can trust people sometimes, and they act like asshats.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that kind of prompted my suggestion, because I know it can sound cool and tough to say, I like it rough. The implication is, I can take it, I'm a tough girl, etc. And it's not all that outside the bounds of the mainstream.

On the other hand, you let who tell you what? Submission sounds like you've lost your mind - to the average Jo-anne, anyway.

CutieMouse said:

MIS, you've often spoken of your career choice of being a teacher, and wanting to keep your private life private, in order to protect your career... it seems odd to me that you want to share relationship details of any sort, knowing that BDSM is often viewed as being abusive. wouldn't talking about your relationship in terms of D/s (even to friends) increase the odds of the information "getting out" and impacting your future career?

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yes, i do want to become a teacher and am in school right now to do so. and yes, the more people that know increase the chance of it "getting out", almost by definition. i am carefull who i tell anything to, and nobody knows full details. its not something i casually disclose, and when information is diclosed it is only bits and pieces, not the whole story. the vast majority of people simply know that i have a boyfriend. my friends know he goes to another school. my close friends know how long we've been together, when im going to visit him next, what he got me for my birthday, etc. only a small small portion of them know anything out of the usual, like i like things rougher. an even smaller still portion knows about the power dynamic. these include my kinky and open roomate,and a close friend who is a sub herself.

the friend whose mother worked at planned parenthood didnt know anything about the D/s. rather he picked up on the fact that i e-mailed A every night without fail and called to say goodnight without fail. he said i was being emotionally controlled and was in a relationship that was emotionally restrictive and abusive. (he was dating my roomate at the time and was often in the room)


i was hoping this thread would be more of a discussion on what to do or say in a situation in which you are accused of abuse. i cant be the only one who has had this experience with a close friend/family member/doctor can i?

intothewoods said:

Oh yeah, baby, I'm with you!



Yeah, that kind of prompted my suggestion, because I know it can sound cool and tough to say, I like it rough. The implication is, I can take it, I'm a tough girl, etc. And it's not all that outside the bounds of the mainstream.

On the other hand, you let who tell you what? Submission sounds like you've lost your mind - to the average Jo-anne, anyway.

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That's because we don't value it as a trait in this culture, outside of gender even. But yeah framing things playfully is a way to make them a little more palatable to people who aren't completely and hopelessly Mayberry or something.

myinnerslut said:

i was hoping this thread would be more of a discussion on what to do or say in a situation in which you are accused of abuse. i cant be the only one who has had this experience with a close friend/family member/doctor can i?

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I think maybe begging to differ, thanking them for the concern, and gently reminding them that you are the most knowledgeable person about your own life, might be ok.

Also, in my experience working with victims of abuse, women who are in abusive relationship will tend to get defensive and shut down in a sort of aggressive way when the subject of abuse is brought up, often because they don't feel safe to discuss it (for good reasons generally) or have feelings of guilt about their relationship.

So, from a pervert kinkster working with victims of abuse, my advice would be to try to avoid getting defensive about it when the topic of abuse comes up. Laugh it away, show surprise that anybody could even think that your partner is anything else than wonderful to you, show how happy you are in your relationship, and just play it cool generally. Your own confidence about the happiness and non-abusive character of your relationship is going to say more than any defense you could come up with.

I keep it to myself. Noone knows everything (or close to everything) for the simple fact that noone would ever understand it un;ess they posessed the same level of passion for it as I did.

Your answer to that case worker should have been, "And that's the type of answer I'd expect from someone who's never been in this kind of relationship."

Why do vanilla people always try to "fix" us as if there's something wrong? I think psychology and psychiatry were two of the worst inventions known to humanity.

I pretty much keep it to myself. About the only ones I share with are people that I *know* share the same lifestyle as I do. Nobody else needs to know.