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30·Aug·2007 · "Thrown Clay" · champagne1982

Lauren Hynde

Lauren Hynde

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Thrown Clay

It was enough that her hands
warm the clay and smooth
its surface even as she moulds
folds and creases in a spiral
down around the barber-pole
hardness of the cylinder.
She loved to come into her studio
and fabricate something human -
like God, out of clay: She made him.

It takes shape, round and masculine,
a simulacrum of Her Adam with feet
of clay, waiting for her lips
to descend and breathe life
into this, Her Art. She accepts
her divinity as her fingers
sweep along the rigid symbology.

Her new religion that allowed
this manifestation of the need
that consumed her, clasped
tightly in her hands in offering
to her mother goddess, Isis.
Phallus and fertility and ritual
sublimated through Her art
in a garage-studio out back,
behind the kitchen of her reality.​


This is a challenge response written for a different web site. There are word choices that may seem a bit awkward but let me know what doesn't fit, that's why I'm workshopping it here.
 
Hi Champ- :)

I remember that challenge and the word "simulcrum" was one of the three, right?

I have loved this poem from the beginning, how you put yourself into a position of feeling rather divine.

I'm going to spend some time with it, read it aloud and see if I have anything substantial to off before I post anything else.

Good choice!

j
 
I love this Carrie – you know my love for Art in poetry – and you write such great erotica. I would change very little, just a few thoughts.]

Thrown Clay

It was enough that her hands – I find the switch from past tense to the present a bit jarring.
warm the clay and smooth
its surface even as she moulds
folds and creases in a spiral
down around the barber-pole
hardness of the cylinder.
She loved to come into her studio – to instead of into, and why revert to past tense?
and fabricate something human -
like God, out of clay: She made him. – Maybe change “like God” to “God-like”

It takes shape, round and masculine, - I would change this to “taking shape,…..”
a simulacrum of Her Adam with feet
of clay, waiting for her lips
to descend and breathe life
into this, Her Art. She accepts
her divinity as her fingers
sweep along the rigid symbology.

Her new religion that allowed – again the change in tense.
this manifestation of the need
that consumed her, clasped
tightly in her hands in offering
to her mother goddess, Isis.
Phallus and fertility and ritual
sublimated through Her art
in a garage-studio out back,
behind the kitchen of her reality.

There is probably a perfectly good reason for the inconsitent tenses that I'm too dense to catch. I like the switch from cerebral ( her thoughts of her creation) and the mundane (her studio in the garage.) I also enjoy your choice of words.
 
Thrown Clay

It was enough that her hands
warm the clay and smooth
its surface even as she moulds
folds and creases in a spiral
down around the barber-pole
hardness of the cylinder.
She loved to come into her studio
and fabricate something human -
like God, out of clay: She made him.

It takes shape, round and masculine,
a simulacrum of Her Adam with feet
of clay, waiting for her lips
to descend and breathe life
into this, Her Art. She accepts
her divinity as her fingers
sweep along the rigid symbology.

Her new religion that allowed
this manifestation of the need
that consumed her, clasped
tightly in her hands in offering
to her mother goddess, Isis.
Phallus and fertility and ritual
sublimated through Her art
in a garage-studio out back,
behind the kitchen of her reality.​

V2.0 Thrown Clay

It's enough that her hands
warm the clay and smooth
the surface even as she moulds
folds and creases in a spiral
down around the barber-pole
hardness of the cylinder.
She loves this work,
to fabricate something human -
Godlike, out of clay: She makes him.

It takes shape, round and masculine,
a simulacrum of Her Adam with feet
of clay, waiting for her lips
to descend and breathe life
into this, Her Art. She accepts
her divinity as her fingers
sweep along the rigid symbology.

Her new religion that allows
this manifestation of the need
that consumes her, clasped
tightly in her hands in offering
to her mother goddess, Isis.
Phallus and fertility and ritual
sublimating through Her art
in a garage-studio out back,
behind the kitchen of her reality.​
 
It was enough that her hands
warm the clay and smooth
its surface even as she moulds
folds and creases in a spiral
down around the barber-pole
hardness of the cylinder.
She loved to come into her studio
and fabricate something human -
like God, out of clay: She made him.

It takes shape, round and masculine,
a simulacrum of Her Adam with feet
of clay, waiting for her lips
to descend and breathe life
into this, Her Art. She accepts
her divinity as her fingers
sweep along the rigid symbology.

Her new religion that allowed
this manifestation of the need
that consumed her, clasped
tightly in her hands in offering
to her mother goddess, Isis.
Phallus and fertility and ritual
sublimated through Her art
in a garage-studio out back,
behind the kitchen of her reality.[/INDENT]

V2.0 Thrown Clay

It's enough that her hands
warm the clay and smooth
the surface even as she moulds
folds and creases in a spiral
down around the barber-pole
hardness of the cylinder.
She loves this work,
to fabricate something human -
Godlike, out of clay: She makes him.

I'd delete Godlike; I think it's implied throughout the poem and leaving it in creates confusion: are you trying to make something like man or like God? in God's image? "to fabricate something human/out of clay: She makes him" is clearer to me. The artist is Godlike, not the art she creates

It takes shape, round and masculine,
a simulacrum of Her Adam with feet
of clay, waiting for her lips
to descend and breathe life
into this, Her Art. She accepts
her divinity as her fingers
sweep along the rigid symbology.

What is the "it" that begins to take shape? It's a "him" no? Maybe "He takes shape." And I'm not liking this image of lips descending--they seem disembodied. Maybe "waiting for her mouth/to touch, breathe life"

Her new religion that allows
this manifestation of the need
that consumes her, clasped
tightly in her hands in offering
to her mother goddess, Isis.
Phallus and fertility and ritual
sublimating through Her art
in a garage-studio out back,
behind the kitchen of her reality.

I'd like to see something more concrete in the first three lines. What is her new religion? The creation of this sculpture? And "that allows the manifestation of the need/that consumes her" is a lot and too abstract--how can you clasp a need? I'm not quite sure how you'd say it and still be delicate--and this is a delicately worded poem--but it needs to be more literal. Finally, I'm not sure about the last line. Why the "kitchen of her reality"?

You've resolved the tense issue nicely. It's a good poem, Champ, but I'd try to get more clarity into those few spots.

:rose:​
 
v2.1 Thrown Clay

It's enough that her hands
warm the clay and smooth
the surface even as she moulds
folds and creases in a spiral
down around the barber-pole
hardness of the cylinder.
She loves this work,
to fabricate something
out of clay, as if divine:
She makes him.

He takes shape, round and masculine,
a simulacrum of Her Adam with feet
of clay, waiting for Her to descend
and breathe life into this,
Her Art. She accepts
this divinity as her fingers
sweep along his rigid symbology.

Her new religion allows
this manifestation of the need
that, clasped tightly in her hands,
consumes her as she holds
this symbol out, in offering,
to her mother goddess. Phallus
and fertility and ritual,
sublimating through Her art
in a garage-studio out back,
behind the kitchen of her reality.
___________________

Thanks so much for your time and ideas everyone.

Angeline, I took a couple of your thoughts and tried to include the details that did leave the narrative a little stretched thin. As to "the kitchen of her reality" I was visualizing a woman who creates ceramic fetish art as a hobby. She escapes to the studio and pours all of her want and power out there rather than inside the home where she holds court in the kitchen.

I could have made it the bedroom but I shudder to think of what could be read into that. I like kitchen, it's a safely sexist idea rather than anything carrying sexual hungers or misandry. Kitchen is more a metaphor for "life" than bedroom would be, unless I wanted to imply that she was sleeping her life away.

Tess, Your input was exactly what I needed to enable my focus on the coherency of tense and ideas. As you see, I didn't have a good excuse for the shifts so I tried to fix them. I hope the rewrite has taken care of the problems you were so good to point out to me.

manipulatrix, You've hit on my ideas really well and I can't begin to tell you how glad I was to see that someone got the whole picture right off. Thanks for your critique. It's great to have you here.

ghost_girl, :) I am so happy that you are reading me no matter where I post my poems. You are the quiet back-up that my confidence needs sometimes, I only hope I am returning the favour now and then.

To anyone else who's been reading and lending unwritten critique and/or enjoyment, thanks for looking, but if you see anything I could improve on to make my poem better for you, please, reply and let me know. Even a small word change or edit is a valuable thought to me and I promise to consider it carefully before I accept or disregard your suggestions.
 
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First of all I like this poem, one of the best that I have read that are written by you. Others have commented on the tense shifts and some wordsmithing and I see that you have responded well ( I tend to like the use of " like God" rather than "Godlike").

I question your adherence to one of the challenge words (I only know of one of them) used in this poem: simulacrum

First it jarred my senses when I read it in your piece. I wondered why you used such a $5 in your poem...it seemed out of place. However you caused me to consult the internet for a definition of this word (too lazy to reach for a dictionary).

Source: WordNet (r) 1.7

simulacrum
n 1: an insubstantial or vague semblance
2: a representation of a person (especially in the form of
sculpture); "the coin bears an effigy of Lincoln"; "the
emperor's tomb had his image carved in stone" [syn: effigy,
image]


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

Simulacrum \Sim`u*la"crum\, n.; pl. Simulacra. [L. See
Simulate.]
A likeness; a semblance; a mock appearance; a sham; -- now
usually in a derogatory sense.

Beneath it nothing but a great simulacrum. --Thackeray.
Click to expand...

Now I may be a little dense with respect to a woman's view of man. But I got the distinct impression that -simulacrum aside - the woman in this piece was proud of creation. The created man had all the attributes that its creator wanted. Perhaps this is one reason I was attracted to the writing, its positive feeling.

This feeling does not seem to jibe with the definitions above to me.
 
naamplao said:
First of all I like this poem, one of the best that I have read that are written by you. Others have commented on the tense shifts and some wordsmithing and I see that you have responded well ( I tend to like the use of " like God" rather than "Godlike").

I question your adherence to one of the challenge words (I only know of one of them) used in this poem: simulacrum

First it jarred my senses when I read it in your piece. I wondered why you used such a $5 in your poem...it seemed out of place. However you caused me to consult the internet for a definition of this word (too lazy to reach for a dictionary).
Source: WordNet (r) 1.7

simulacrum
n 1: an insubstantial or vague semblance
2: a representation of a person (especially in the form of
sculpture); "the coin bears an effigy of Lincoln"; "the
emperor's tomb had his image carved in stone" [syn: effigy,
image]


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

Simulacrum \Sim`u*la"crum\, n.; pl. Simulacra. [L. See
Simulate.]
A likeness; a semblance; a mock appearance; a sham; -- now
usually in a derogatory sense.

Beneath it nothing but a great simulacrum. --Thackeray.
Click to expand...
Now I may be a little dense with respect to a woman's view of man. But I got the distinct impression that -simulacrum aside - the woman in this piece was proud of creation. The created man had all the attributes that its creator wanted. Perhaps this is one reason I was attracted to the writing, its positive feeling.

This feeling does not seem to jibe with the definitions above to me.
Click to expand...
I see what you mean as to the snobbery of the word, simulacrum. Fabricate and sublimate were the 2 other (of course with the verb/noun shifts as required to fit) challenge words. Now, I took the simulacrum definition #2 in your example, where she represents a symbol of man in clay sculpture. The sham part of it fits with the phallus being the only emphasis in her art. I hope that explains my thinking in keeping with the word choice. Besides, it does stick out and makes the reader think and I do like the feel of the word in my mouth.

Part of the challenge which I didn't include here on this forum was the title, Janus Hearts. Janus, according to Wikipedia has a bit to do with new beginnings (thus, new religion), two-facedness (housewife/artist) and gatekeeper/war - which aspect I never really delved far into in this poem. It was a very cerebral challenge, and I certainly enjoy writing those, so much so that I do have a second Janus Hearts poem that I wrote in response:
Janus Hearts

This key unlocks the gate
to a mystery; a fabrication
of faith, even though I know
immortality is just a tale
that eases us into death.

My soul will pass into a new
dimension when my heart
ceases in its efforts to deny
that more than darkness
waits beyond this door.

Oh let me end this stubborn
fight and learn to sublimate
my doubt into prayerful pleas
to a master I fear may be
no more than illusion --

a painting of angel's wings
on the ceiling, a simulacrum
that calms the medieval crone
as her eye believes what only
her heart can truly see.​
Thanks for your thoughts here.
 
Last edited:
champagne1982 said:
Part of the challenge which I didn't include here on this forum was the title, Janus Hearts. Janus, according to Wikipedia has a bit to do with new beginnings (thus, new religion), two-facedness (housewife/artist) and gatekeeper/war - which aspect I never really delved far into in this poem. It was a very cerebral challenge, and I certainly enjoy writing those, so much so that I do have a second Janus Hearts poem that I wrote in response:
Janus Hearts
​
Click to expand...

Your title caught my eye. I sell many African janus-faced figures. Anyway this is lovely poem but pales in comparison to Thrown Clay. I just read your last version, then the original. The version you posted on 9-3 just blew me away. It is excellent, Carrie.​
 
WickedEve said:
Your title caught my eye. I sell many African janus-faced figures. Anyway this is lovely poem but pales in comparison to Thrown Clay. I just read your last version, then the original. The version you posted on 9-3 just blew me away. It is excellent, Carrie.
Click to expand...
Ms 2D. - Thank you for your thoughts on both poems. You thrill me with your commentary, I am pleased you like the latest version of Thrown Clay. It will likely be the one that gets out there in submission form.
 
champagne1982 said:
Ms 2D. - Thank you for your thoughts on both poems. You thrill me with your commentary, I am pleased you like the latest version of Thrown Clay. It will likely be the one that gets out there in submission form.
Click to expand...
Hopefully you're being facetious, because it wasn't much of a commentary. lol But I was being genuine. I know any good e-zine will quickly grab your poem.
 
WickedEve said:
Hopefully you're being facetious, because it wasn't much of a commentary. lol But I was being genuine. I know any good e-zine will quickly grab your poem.
Click to expand...
Never facetious, maybe a bit tongue-in-cheek.. (perhaps I have a naughty poem idea fomenting ;) in my head -- ferment, foment... goodness! Either way I sound primed for some naughtiness.) I was being genuine in my appreciation though. It's lovely to get a WE compliment (don't ya know?).
 
The thrill of the Chase

I have no interest in spectator sport whatsoever. I don't read about it in the papers and unless it is something that has balletic allusions like figure skating at the olympics, I never watch it on TV. One of the things I was looking forward to leaving behind when I left South Africa was the mob mentality associated with the sport mania of white South Africans. (Under Apartheid, 3 million whites could generally be relied on to field a better rugby team than the 60 million Brits or the 65 million French.

Was I in for a huge shock when I hit Hockey Night in Canada. As if the hockey scene wasn't bad enough, I soon discovered it was merely emblematic of the insanity surrounding sport right across the continent and even the other continent to the South of us.

Watching the development of this poem on this thread was as thrilling for me as I imagine the fox hunt is for the people who enjoy that sort of thing. The final version of the poem is the fox, the earlier versions are shabby decoys. Everyone who commented are the hounds racing about making a terrible din in order to flush the fox from it's hiding and champagne1982 is the hunter who flies from her horse to victoriously clutch the fox to her breast just before he disappears into his hole. OK, so the analogy is not quite accurate, but the thrill that I felt when I read that last version was very similar to the thrill of the fans after a touchdown.

What elicits the keenest pleasure is the sense of the particular genius of this poet's mind revealed by the the subtle differences between the advice and what she does with it. I'm not being in the least bit facetious when I say that the poetry discussion circle content is the stuff of Superbowls for me. (I warned you that I was eccentric, nu?):D
 
lorencino said:
... What elicits the keenest pleasure is the sense of the particular genius of this poet's mind revealed by the the subtle differences between the advice and what she does with it. I'm not being in the least bit facetious when I say that the poetry discussion circle content is the stuff of Superbowls for me. (I warned you that I was eccentric, nu?):D
Click to expand...
Hi lorencino. I love the Circle. It is truly freeing when you place a poem here and let it grow into a stronger piece.

Sometimes, the writer can do a live workshop, but many times, the advice and opinions can clog up the filter, then the poem needs to wait while the plumber/poet runs a snake through the pipes, freeing the drain to rinse away the garbage.
 
champagne1982 said:
I see what you mean as to the snobbery of the word, simulacrum. Fabricate and sublimate were the 2 other (of course with the verb/noun shifts as required to fit) challenge words. Now, I took the simulacrum definition #2 in your example, where she represents a symbol of man in clay sculpture. The sham part of it fits with the phallus being the only emphasis in her art. I hope that explains my thinking in keeping with the word choice. Besides, it does stick out and makes the reader think and I do like the feel of the word in my mouth.
Click to expand...
aweful
gritty

ROFL

God-like doesn't bother me. Looks like you made a gollum.
Shalom!
 
champagne1982 said:
LOL. At least I let Galatea stay sleeping.
Click to expand...
Glad to see you back, and took the comment on the comment in the spirit. The humour in the comment too often seems to be missing in your poetry (an observation). As for your poem, I like the idea, per se, the inversation of creation. But as a man I may not be the target audience, something for a woman to mold probably has caused more friction (no that kind, yeah the other kind) in man-woman relationships, i.e.
"He's not the man I married"
Well you tried to change him for X years
type thing.
 
twelveoone said:
Glad to see you back, and took the comment on the comment in the spirit. The humour in the comment too often seems to be missing in your poetry (an observation). As for your poem, I like the idea, per se, the inversation of creation. But as a man I may not be the target audience, something for a woman to mold probably has caused more friction (no that kind, yeah the other kind) in man-woman relationships, i.e.
"He's not the man I married"
Well you tried to change him for X years
type thing.
Click to expand...
I never thought of that. It's a really good path to explore if I were to add something to the poem, though. Maybe, subconciously I was planting the dissatisfied seeds in the box beside the back door.

Now you've given me something else to chew on... (don't be scared, it's likely just gum.. ) I should spend more time laid up and reading in here. It's good for the muse.
 
champagne1982 said:
I never thought of that. It's a really good path to explore if I were to add something to the poem, though. Maybe, subconciously I was planting the dissatisfied seeds in the box beside the back door.

Now you've given me something else to chew on... (don't be scared, it's likely just gum.. ) I should spend more time laid up and reading in here. It's good for the muse.
Click to expand...

Heal well, and always remember muse is 4/5's of Amuse. :rose:
 
I'm not sure if you are done with it, but I noticed something that I don't think anyone else mentioned:
It's enough that her hands
warm the clay and smooth
the surface even as she moulds
folds and creases in a spiral
down around the barber-pole
hardness of the cylinder.
She loves this work,
to fabricate something
out of clay, as if divine:
She makes him.

He takes shape, round and masculine,
a simulacrum of Her Adam with feet
of clay, waiting for Her to descend
and breathe life into this,
Her Art. She accepts
this divinity as her fingers
sweep along his rigid symbology.

Her new religion allows
this manifestation of the need
that, clasped tightly in her hands,
consumes her as she holds
this symbol out, in offering,
to her mother goddess. Phallus
and fertility and ritual,
sublimating through Her art
in a garage-studio out back,
behind the kitchen of her reality.

The pronouns--to cap or not to cap--is confusing me. It might just be me, but I'm trying to figure out if you keep pulling her from creator to worshipper or if she should be one or the other. Same with the creation. You have him capped as if he is a god (I think it should not be capitalized to define an idol, Greek or Roman god as opposed to Jesus--again, just my two cents) then is there an evolution from a hunk of clay to god status? I'm thinking that the god should be consistently capped. If you decide to cap her, then "she" would not be in a lower place. One thing you may want to consider is having "her" capped until you start capping "him" and then making "her" lower-cased.

I hope I am making sense. Back to the 'god' thing. I think that it should be lower-cased because the actions are "pagan" if you know what I mean. It's physical; she's worshipping the clay and the creation within. I cap "God" when it's referring to...well, no need to go into that, but I use it sparingly and when it applies to that which I believe to be God. Okay, I'm going to take myself out of that tangent.

In these lines:
and breathe life into this,
Her Art. She accepts
this divinity as her fingers

you have "this" too close to each other, so perhaps change one or the other. You also have "this" and "that" within three lines (2-5) within three lines with "this" repeated. Some would say "no big deal," so you may not want to change it, but it was something I noticed.

this symbol out, in offering,--I'd remove "out" simply because there are three prepositions within these two lines, and "out" is the most expendable.

You have "barber-pole hardness" which seems redundant--I don't remember seeing a pole not be hard. No biggie there, just acknowledging. It seemed off to me, but I'm not sure why, and I think that is the reason.

Good stuff? Oh the rest of it is beautiful. You have an awesome way with words. I'm a fan. You know that. I hope I made sense, and I hope I helped.
 
Gina! You're a cruel mistress. You're going to make me work aren't ya?

Ok. I do have the pronoun caps and shifts intentionally, to differentiate between the Creator goddess and the artist and also to blur that line between them. Adam is uppercase since this is a proper noun. Art is uppercased because it seems more significant, somehow, than just passing it off as another word.

The redundancies you've noted are likely present due to my ear adding imagined rhythm to the text. I do that and many times the edit will sort that stuff out but you'll never see the final product. Thanks for pointing them out, AG. I'll keep the notes on top for when I edit.

I appreciate the compliment. Thanks for taking a truckload of time to critique this one for me.
 
Hi, Carrie,
I know I'm coming really late to this party, but your geometry thing got me off my fat ass, and I came across this gem. I love v.2, a significant improvement over v.1 or v.1.a or whatever, but I just had to add my two sense. Only a couple of things jumped out at me. The are:

v2.1 Thrown Clay

It's enough that her hands
warm the clay and smooth
the surface even as she moulds
folds and creases in a spiral
down around the barber-pole
hardness of the cylinder.
She loves this work,
to fabricate something The infinitive "to fabricate" bothers me. "Fabricating" rolls better off my tongue when I read it aloud.
out of clay, as if divine:
She makes him.

He takes shape, round and masculine,
a simulacrum of Her Adam with feet
of clay, waiting for Her to descend
and breathe life into this,
Her Art. She accepts
this divinity as her fingers
sweep along his rigid symbology.

Her new religion allows
this manifestation of the need I agree with Gina about "this" and "this" in the same sentence. It jumps out at me, too.
that, clasped tightly in her hands,
consumes her as she holds
this symbol out, in offering,
to her mother goddess. Phallus I would linebreak after goddess. I like word alliterations in groups of 3.
and fertility and ritual, Not sure why you hung "Phallus" out there on an island.
sublimating through Her art
in a garage-studio out back,
behind the kitchen of her reality.


Just my humble thoughts, and trying to look back lovingly.
 
I wanted to participate and I decided this would be a safe choice of poems to offer critique upon, having just been bumped—I'm deathly afraid I'll otherwise choose a poem by someone I am unfamiliar with only to find that they have since passed away and be scarred for life.

If my comments be not sententious, at least they are short. Or, if they be sententious, at least they are short. Depending on which century you live in.

'barber-pole hardness': It was mentioned above that this is redundant, but I actually find the repetition of the idea to work well and I think that reducing it to either "barber-pole of the cylinder" or (the horror!) "hardness of the cylinder" makes the image less impactful.

'to fabricate something': Depending on how I read through the poem, I sometimes find this bothersome. If I read pausing slightly at the line break, it's awkward, but if I read smoothly through the line following the thought, I have no objections to it. I suppose you can make of that whatever you will.

'simulacrum of Her Adam': Yes, simulacrum is a bit unusual a word, but I am rather fond of the word and more importantly I think it fits the concept well and actually works here: the faint rhyme of simulacrum and Adam, without being sing-songy, smooths the line out.

'the mother goddess. Phallus': I can conceive of this in two separate ways, but I am not sure exactly what your intentions are, so I will offer both. As it is, there is a rude juxtaposition and transition of thought—if you are aiming for an abrupt frame shift, this works perfectly. Because or in spite of that, I find the concepts bleed into each other, so that the divinity theme carries over, even when we are no longer talking specifically about the divine (in other words, that it elevates the creation, if I am making any sense whatsoever), which gives itself to shades of a not so mythologically unfamiliar male consort figure. If you prefer a smooth movement from one idea to the next and find what I just said completely out there, I would say the linebreak would be best after the period with the next line as "Phallus, fertiliy, and ritual".

'kitchen of her reality': Having read your explanation of the idea, I get this and it works, but without having read it, I'm not sure how well I would follow the line of thought. Which isn't, necessarily, to say that it is problematic or unclear, because, knowing what it refers to, it does seem obvious.

Just a few hopefully worthwhile thoughts on this hopefully safe choice (you had best not have died while I was writing this!)
 
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