What's the difference?

I've noticed there's been a lot of talk on here lately about abuse, so I thought I'd throw this out there.

What's the difference in healthy pain and unhealthy pain? From a mental stand point.

Most of you know that I reciently ended a bad situation. What I haven't talked about is the week after that I went into a major sub frenzy and pain craving. I wanted, needed, pain and had thoughts of doing some self inflicted stuff. But my thoughts didn't vier towards my usual nipple clamps and self spankings that they used to, I wanted something more. I wanted knife play, I wanted to feel the blade scratch deep into my skin. I wanted to watch as my blood dripped onto the floor. I craved it, I obsessed over it.

I didn't tell any one about these cravings, not here, not my mom, not my friends, not even Jounar. Every time one popped up I started to ask myself why I was having a craving, why I wanted it so badly. It wasn't for the pain factor, I was feeling empty, lost, alone, hurt, confused, like I would never feel subspace again, like the world lost meaning, and a vast number of other emotions that are to be expected after this type of thing.

I felt that because I wasn't seeking the pain, but seeking pain to replace an emotion that I was feeling that this wasn't a good time for me to have it, which is one of the reasons I didn't tell Jounar, because even if I was recieving pain "from" him it would still be just to cover some other emotions that I really needed to deal with. I worried that if I gave in, and if I did the cutting that I wanted, then it wouldn't stop. I would keep cutting every time something bothered me and that wouldn't be healthy.

So what's the difference between me inflicting pain on myself because I can't deal with reality in that moment, or some one else inflicting pain on me because I want to let go and get away from the world?

I don't mean for this to be an analis of me. I mean this as an open discussion, I just used my example to get the ball rolling.

I personally don't know that there is a difference IF a sub is using someone else to inflict pain on themselves so that they aren't the one doing it. To ME it would be the same thing if the mental state is the same, still unhealthy pain.

However, if the sub is in a healthy mental state when someone else is inflicting pain on them and the session is just for release, then this is healthy pain. In my opinion anyway.

In other words it all depends on the mental state of the sub at the time of the pain session, not who is inflicting the pain for it to be considered healthy or unhealthy pain. Of course as I stated this is my personal opinion on the matter, other's mileage may vary vastly.

Good question. Wish I had an answer that was deep and wise, but I've kinda wondered that myself. So mostly I'm just *bumping* this thread, so see if anyone else has an answer.

A short piece that I wrote when I got herpes...

untitled

i leak pain out the edges
it slashes inside
and out – others,
feeling it, cut (me)
away for relief

i leak pain out my edges
it falls from the tightness
of eyes open tight
it etches rivulets
on well-worn cheeks

i leak pain out all edges
entrances and exits
it smells of sulfur
and burns like acid
from piece to piece

i leak pain where
once was hope
i leak dark where
once was light
i leak deep dank night

Copyright, smnestor, 04/2006

I felt like cutting myself to relieve the pain. And the pain was definitely related to a deep sense of loss. Like you, I chose not to inflict pain on myself.

Would it have been abuse? No. I don't think so. However, in my case NOT cutting led me to find other ways to deal with the pain - I reached out, found an online support group, founded another for queer women. And I wrote - in fact, I started a book. Could it have been healthy? I am not sure I can answer that.

Questions I've asked myself about various behaviors about which I've had questions... Could it become compulsive? Am/would I be using it to avoid events/emotions/patterns that are better looked at now? Is the avoidance temporary or ongoing? (I believe that sometimes temporary avoidance is useful - and sometimes that period can be fairly long.) How will I feel after? Will it increase or decrease my self-esteem?

It was in part the herpes that led to my asking a friend who'd been trained to perform a bdsm cleansing for me (that and D's temporary break-up with me - there were also some deep childhood events that provided the underpinning for everything else that I was feeling). The cleansing left me with bruises that lasted over a month, but it was also accompanied by very deep self-examination and psychological "re-framing."

Even though the cleansing was done to relieve pain, I know that it was healthy. It was the one thing that allowed me to begin functioning again when I couldn't get adequate therapeautic help through Kaiser. It wasn't play, but something else. Perhaps what made this so positive was the fact that rather than allowing me to "escape" very difficult feelings, thoughts, experiences, the process forced me to examine them.

When I experience pain as a bottom, it is very healthy for me. It releaves stress. It helps me feel grounded in my body, it helps me to release, it helps me connect to who I am and to the person who is Topping me. It increases my self-esteem.

I don't know if this is what you're asking, but hope that it is making some sense. I think that the question is an excellent one.

Neon

When I was a teen I bit myself to relieve stress and anger. I always figured it was bad, but I've wondered how it's that different than having K take a belt to my ass. I still feel a lot better afterward.

I could go into a long jargon loaded dissertation here but simple is better. The difference is how one perceives the pain as bad or good...as desired or dreaded. Is it sought after or thrust upon us? Gracie you bit because you felt you "had" to in order to feel better. When K takes the belt to your ass it is because you want him to whether it be subconscious or right out up front...you want it.

That's all.

graceanne said:

When I was a teen I bit myself to relieve stress and anger. I always figured it was bad, but I've wondered how it's that different than having K take a belt to my ass. I still feel a lot better afterward.

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Thank you neon, that was very beautiful.

Like has been said, I came to the conclution that if I was avoiding something and if I felt like it was wrong or bad to inflict pain or have pain inflicted on me then it was, and I shouldn't do it. I do use pain to destress, as I have heard many other subbies here say that they do. But destressing isn't the same as avoiding emotions, I don't think anyway. I also know that I have an adictive nature, which is one reason I don't drink a lot, and I never drink when I'm craving it really hard. If I have an inkling that something will become compulsive if I give in this one time, then I don't give in.

the captians wench said:

Thank you neon, that was very beautiful.

Like has been said, I came to the conclution that if I was avoiding something and if I felt like it was wrong or bad to inflict pain or have pain inflicted on me then it was, and I shouldn't do it. I do use pain to destress, as I have heard many other subbies here say that they do. But destressing isn't the same as avoiding emotions, I don't think anyway. I also know that I have an adictive nature, which is one reason I don't drink a lot, and I never drink when I'm craving it really hard. If I have an inkling that something will become compulsive if I give in this one time, then I don't give in.

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That's exactly how I feel.

Neon this poem is Beautiful

neonflux said:

A short piece that I wrote when I got herpes...

untitled

i leak pain out the edges
it slashes inside
and out – others,
feeling it, cut (me)
away for relief

i leak pain out my edges
it falls from the tightness
of eyes open tight
it etches rivulets
on well-worn cheeks

i leak pain out all edges
entrances and exits
it smells of sulfur
and burns like acid
from piece to piece

i leak pain where
once was hope
i leak dark where
once was light
i leak deep dank night

Copyright, smnestor, 04/2006


Neon

Click to expand...

the captians wench said:

Thank you neon, that was very beautiful.

Like has been said, I came to the conclution that if I was avoiding something and if I felt like it was wrong or bad to inflict pain or have pain inflicted on me then it was, and I shouldn't do it. I do use pain to destress, as I have heard many other subbies here say that they do. But destressing isn't the same as avoiding emotions, I don't think anyway. I also know that I have an adictive nature, which is one reason I don't drink a lot, and I never drink when I'm craving it really hard. If I have an inkling that something will become compulsive if I give in this one time, then I don't give in.

Click to expand...

I think that the distinction makes a great deal of sense. (I am also careful about when/how I drink because of my Irish heritage.) And I agree about the difference between stress release and avoiding emotion. Sometimes the "release" can provide a means for experiencing and then letting go of something that is minor. Deep loss is something entirely different, at least for me. Neon

NALA CAYENNE said:

Neon this poem is Beautiful

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Thank you, Nala!

Pain can be grounding, and bring you into a sharp contrast of what you feel that is real, and what you feel that is unreal. Thoughts are unreal a lot of the time.

When pain is used in that sense, as a way to focus, as a way to bring you back to reality, and it's in your control, and it's what you want, or with someone who knows what you need or want even better than you do, I believe it's beneficial.

There's a difference between hurt and harm.

I think when you're using the pain not to ground yourself, but to escape, and not escape in a way that benefits your life, but to escape in a way that makes you neglect your life, that's harm.

i have a history of eating disorders. becuase of this, i am not allowed to do anything self-harm ish. im not allowed to leave marks. not allowed to pierce of cut my skin. at times this can be very frustrating, as i want more then i am allowed to give myself. i sturggle with the idea of my masochism sometimes. i dont think this made any sense, just a jumble of thoughts. sorry, my brain is off.

myinnerslut said:

i have a history of eating disorders. becuase of this, i am not allowed to do anything self-harm ish. im not allowed to leave marks. not allowed to pierce of cut my skin. at times this can be very frustrating, as i want more then i am allowed to give myself. i sturggle with the idea of my masochism sometimes. i dont think this made any sense, just a jumble of thoughts. sorry, my brain is off.

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It makes sense. It's better to have a good reason to not do it, though. Helps with the balance and purpose.

i have studied the psychological theories behind the reasons for the need to "cut" while studying psychology here at college. And while I’m no expert by any means, in my own mind cutting and masochism really aren’t all that different. The most common reason someone cuts is to trigger a physical feeling to act as a representation for an extreme emotion that they refuse to acknowledge or allow them selves to feel. By causing an extreme physical sensation you are forcing your body to allow a physical and mental connection to take place which often allows the difficult feeling to be experienced and dealt with thus leaving a person feeling better emotionally but leaving them physically hurting. Now while the emotion that is being repressed is often a negative one, this is not always the case. It is usually just one your mind refuses to believe. In MHO I think masochism is often just another form of this. It is the desire to feel something that is very clear and very intense. It is pure. When you are hurt and are in pain your body undergoes many changes. It releases endorphins and your mind clarifies while your senses heighten. This paired with sexual stimulation its no wonder why so many love the combination of the focusing pain with the overwhelming stimulating pleasure. To me the difference really lies in the emotion you are trying to allow to manifest. If you are using it as a stimulant to add in your pleasure I don’t think its abuse at all. But if your sole desire is to just allow your mind to let pass some thoughts and feelings it has been blocking, than it is far more harmful to your psyche to injure yourself just for a temporary fix, vs. get in touch with yourself and allow yourself to deal with it with out the use of pain.

I don't know about a physical feeling like the emotional feeling. I always felt it was a way to get how hurt and angry I was inside OUTSIDE. Instead of walking around pretending everything was ok - anger and resentment were NOT allowed in my home - there was something to show that things were not ok. I wasn't just bleeding inside (yes I bit hard enough to draw blood a few times), but on the outside.

There are ways of experiencing pain without causing yourself harm; holding ice tight in your hands for as long as possible, for example. I think that wanting to harm yourself is different from simply wanting pain. Self harm can become addictive though because nothing else gives such an intense physical sensation.

I find things like spanking myself with a wooden spoon, holding ice and nipple/clit clamps can be as therapeutic as a damn good cry - something I often find quite difficult.

Bottom line is though, if you know that the root cause of all this is unresolved then pain is just transference and unconstructive in the long term. If it helps you get to a place where you can start to deal with the existential stuff then all well and good.

VelvetDarkness said:

There are ways of experiencing pain without causing yourself harm; holding ice tight in your hands for as long as possible, for example. I think that wanting to harm yourself is different from simply wanting pain. Self harm can become addictive though because nothing else gives such an intense physical sensation.

I find things like spanking myself with a wooden spoon, holding ice and nipple/clit clamps can be as therapeutic as a damn good cry - something I often find quite difficult.

Bottom line is though, if you know that the root cause of all this is unresolved then pain is just transference and unconstructive in the long term. If it helps you get to a place where you can start to deal with the existential stuff then all well and good.

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I have a hard time crying too. I have often called on some one to beat me to tears litterally because I need to let that emotion out, but just couldn't. Once the tears started coming out, it feels so cleansing and I can deal with what ever it was that I felt I couldn't.

Now that is different from the feelings that I was feeling at the time I mentioned in the first post. When I seek some one to cause me tears, it's so that I can face that emotion. At the point when I thought about cutting, it was so I could excape from that emotion, replace it with another one.

the captians wench said:

I have a hard time crying too. I have often called on some one to beat me to tears litterally because I need to let that emotion out, but just couldn't. Once the tears started coming out, it feels so cleansing and I can deal with what ever it was that I felt I couldn't.

Now that is different from the feelings that I was feeling at the time I mentioned in the first post. When I seek some one to cause me tears, it's so that I can face that emotion. At the point when I thought about cutting, it was so I could excape from that emotion, replace it with another one.

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but what is healthier to your psyche? to run away from your emotions, to force them to come out? or to just face them head on and do some soul searching? Often times while facing the problem head on is extremely difficult, it is a solution and not a quick fix that only lasts until it builds back up again. From a very wise book (Tuesdays with Morrie) why do you run from emotion? Why do we even have emotions if not to experience them? Rather let the emotion come, experience it, for it is a message from your body. Once you’ve experienced it set it aside and let it not bother you any more….

trojan_man_co said:

but what is healthier to your psyche? to run away from your emotions, to force them to come out? or to just face them head on and do some soul searching? Often times while facing the problem head on is extremely difficult, it is a solution and not a quick fix that only lasts until it builds back up again. From a very wise book (Tuesdays with Morrie) why do you run from emotion? Why do we even have emotions if not to experience them? Rather let the emotion come, experience it, for it is a message from your body. Once you’ve experienced it set it aside and let it not bother you any more….

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I know exactly why I can't just feel what I need to feel, why I need to be pushed. Because that's how I was taught to be as a child, and even as a young adult.

We were always taught to "suck it up" or "just let it go" we never delt with anything. So if I was upset, I took a deep breath and "let it go". I never could understand, at least not until later in life, why these things would come back and hurt me later. "That happened two weeks ago, why am I upset about it now".

As a teenager, I remember my mom looking at me and telling me "if you can't be happy at least pretend to be for me". And so that began the constant smile faze that I've just started working out of the past two years. She didn't mean it the way she said it, she was talking about one of those "fake it till you make it" deals, but I took it so much further than what she intended. There was a lot going on at that time, my step father was getting sicker every day (prostate cancer) and he refused to be hospitalized, throw two teenagers on top of that and poor mom had a lot to deal with too.

When it came to his final days, I had to step up and be an adult. I surpressed everything I felt because mom was not capible of making decitions. Not to mention his side of the family was being very disrespectful and I was the one that had to explain to them that he didn't want them there in the first place. I made sure mom ate, and slept, and so many other things an 18 year old just shouldn't have to go thru. And the whole time I was "strong". I repressed everything until he took his last breath. Then I crashed and for 2 weeks I was not functional.

I know this wasn't a healthy way to deal with things, but it was how I was trained to do, and if I had handled it any other way, his family would have stolen half our stuff because "it means so much more to me than you".

I am better at undertanding and letting my emotions out more, but there are just some times that I need a push. And I feel it's better to have that push when I need it, than to let it keep being bottled up until I rip the head off of a customer.

Viva la difference

That's all.

*bump*

I'm kind of into where contemporary therapy tries to be at its best with these things - if it's a problem for me, if it's seriously interfering with me meeting my goals or my self-image or my life in some way, then it's a problem. Chances are I feel bad about doing it for really strong internal reasons, not just because of my cultural hang ups or because I might disappoint someone else - I'm truly *not right* with it - that's a good red flag.

If it doesn't meet those criteria, I don't think it's a problem. Bad pain/unhealthy pain is something you feel that much conflict over all the time, it's the inability to get hurt/hurt self and go "ah, that's better, now on with my life." That, to me, is just some catharsis. Yeah it may not look OK to those who don't get it, but that's their problem.

If I always walk away from it feeling a lot worse than I went in, then it sort of says "problem" to me.

Does this make any sense?