Levels of emotional involvement in a scene

I have a question about the levels of emotional involvement in a scene.

Let me present a few scenarios:


1. D tells S, "I'm going to whip you later tonight, it's going to hurt but I know you can take it. Let me know how you're doing." Painful whipping ensues, with lots of checking and communication.

2. D tells S, "Welcome home, take of your clothes and give me your wrists." D ties up S and begins whipping, keeping watch of how she's doing.

3. D tells S, "Why isn't the closet organized yet? I'm under a lot of stress at work and I can't even get a simple request completed without having to remind you incessantly?" Whipping ensues. Both know that the closet being organized is not the biggest deal, but the mutual act is convincing and lends some credibility to the scene.

4. D tells S, "I'm quite seriously unhappy with X. That is not something I consider acceptable from my S and I insist you accept a punishment for it." S complies apologetically and whipping ensues.

I'm not sure exactly what you would call the spectrum I'm trying to draw, but I'm attempting to describe various scenes within a relationship that appear similar but have very different levels of emotional involvement.

Personally, I like and have participated in scenes at each level, but I do feel differently about each one of them. The cutting scene that resulted in the avatar I'm now using was definitely of the first category. I felt the act itself was intense enough and I didn't want to add any extra variables.

The second scene is probably what I use most often, when the act in question is something we've done before and I feel comfortable with.

The third scene is often used to add some new life to a well weathered act of kink, and works well for me.

The fourth scene is one that I've only done on a handful of instances. It tends to be extremely satisfying for both me and my bottom, but often leaves me questioning how healthy our activities are and wondering if I'm flirting with abuse.

Comments?

Most of my scenes tend to be in the number two level. I'm in a hurry right now, so I'll add more later.

It justs depends on the couple, as you know.

Abuse isn't abuse until someone in the couple expresses the wish to stop (seriously) and the other person keeps on going.

I would say most of my scening right now takes the form of #1, just because I'm only getting to know a couple of new play partners, but when I know someone, I do a lot of 2 and a fair amount of 3 (recently Topped ~D and the whole scene was based on #3 - lots of fun). Not being a "lifestyle" person, can't say I've ever done #4. Am curious as to why you're concerned that it's unhealthy? Especially if its satisfying and within the boundaries set out for the relationship? Neon

neonflux said:

I would say most of my scening right now takes the form of #1, just because I'm only getting to know a couple of new play partners, but when I know someone, I do a lot of 2 and a fair amount of 3 (recently Topped ~D and the whole scene was based on #3 - lots of fun). Not being a "lifestyle" person, can't say I've ever done #4. Am curious as to why you're concerned that it's unhealthy? Especially if its satisfying and within the boundaries set out for the relationship? Neon

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I've started threads on this before, but I hold the belief that most of us with D/s fantasies tend to carry some of the same basic motivational forces as those in abusive relationships.

I've been in a D/s relationship that slipped into abusive territory before and I don't think it's a simple issue. I never want to give up on D/s, but I want always to be proud of what I do and feel that even the kinkiest acts go towards the betterment of my relationship.

My current sub and I are both pretty intense people, when it comes to S&M. Our relationship goes far beyond the vanilla, but I think some self restraint is a good thing.

Marquis said:

Our relationship goes far beyond the vanilla, but I think some self restraint is a good thing.

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Why so? Not a challenge, just a question. For me I think of abuse in terms of being negatively abusive belonging in the camp where there is absolutely no consent for it to go to the realms it has, and where the pyl certainly did not and does not want what is happening to go on under any circumstances. I say any circumstances because there have been times we have been places I really didn't want to go, even resented on some level for a time afterward, but through it all it was and is what I really want and what feeds my soul like nothing else can, and perhaps I can be free to feel that now without the negative undertones because I am with someone who for the first time I have no doubts about in terms of how he feels about me, and what he wants for us both. To me that is good, and relies on us not placing restrictions on behaviour that does not hurt anyone else. It is a fine line to walk though I agree, and one I do not think many want to experience but I think you put your finger on it when you said you are both intense people....those seem to be the type who are attracted to and can survive such a relationship IME.

Catalina

Marquis said:

I've started threads on this before, but I hold the belief that most of us with D/s fantasies tend to carry some of the same basic motivational forces as those in abusive relationships.

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This is an interesting premise. Do you feel that those motivations are more likely to show themselves in D/s or SM or both? I guess I'm asking because my own proclivities lean more towards the SM end of the equation, although D/s is certainly an element of any scene. And how do you see those playing out for a PYL vs. pyl?

Marquis said:

I've been in a D/s relationship that slipped into abusive territory before and I don't think it's a simple issue. I never want to give up on D/s, but I want always to be proud of what I do and feel that even the kinkiest acts go towards the betterment of my relationship.

My current sub and I are both pretty intense people, when it comes to S&M. Our relationship goes far beyond the vanilla, but I think some self restraint is a good thing.

Click to expand...

I don't know - it seems that "vanilla" relationships are as prone to being abusive as kinky ones - I was in a physically abusive relationship (with a woman) for a very short time and it was quit "vanilla" outside of the abuse.

The restraint - I am trying to think this through. It seems that we often assert within the BDSM world that the concept of consent is so ingrained in our "ethos" that we'd be less likely to slip into abuse. While I certainly think that there is something to this, just because BDSM requires that twe talk more clearly about sex than most people do, I am not so sure of that always being the case.

In another thread today, I mentioned that I know there is a side of me that can be very psychologically cruel but that I am hesitant to let out, in part because I know that I'm not skilled enough yet, but also because I'm not sure I'd always be able to tell when I had gone too far (a bottom's physical limits seem so much easier to gage). Or is that a part of the skill?

Is this making any sense?

~ Neon

P.S., I saw a Domme once, someone who is very skilled and whom I greatly respect, do something that she thought was geared to embarrass but that ended up being very degrading to the sub in question (not her property but someone she knew well and whom she'd been given permission to play with). It resolved itself - some responsibility certainly fell on the sub in this case - but it really made me think about this issue and my own limits when Topping.

Marquis said:

I've started threads on this before, but I hold the belief that most of us with D/s fantasies tend to carry some of the same basic motivational forces as those in abusive relationships.

I've been in a D/s relationship that slipped into abusive territory before and I don't think it's a simple issue. I never want to give up on D/s, but I want always to be proud of what I do and feel that even the kinkiest acts go towards the betterment of my relationship.

My current sub and I are both pretty intense people, when it comes to S&M. Our relationship goes far beyond the vanilla, but I think some self restraint is a good thing.

Click to expand...

I'm glad you started this thread. My perpective is that of someone who is new to the scene, and trying to sort out what kind of relationship is right for me in the future.

I agree that if a relationship is consensual, it's not abuse. But does that mean it's healthy? Are both parties truly happy? I don't know the answer yet. And maybe I never will. And this isn't to say that if someone else's relationship is unhealthy in my mind that I should have any say about it. I'm just saying that just because it's consensual doesn't mean it's healthy.

I don't do punitive stuff. It just bothers me on some level and I can't get around it. Punitive is not getting my attention, my presence, the opportunity to be around me. So all my scenes fall into the first two categories in some form. Or a variant that's a bit further on the edge - D starts in on s and continues until she feels "done" reactions of s completely notwithstanding outside of trauma, obviously to be avoided. "How he's doing" of little import.

...........

I've only experienced number 4 once. And though I would never ever purposely disobey or piss him off to that extent just for the sake of recieving that kind of punishment, I do have to say the emotions both of us were experiencing were awesome. There is something about bending over willingly and receiving a real beating for punishment not for a sexual thrill, or just his whim that totally brings out the complete feelings of submission, surrender and ownership in me. I didn't feel it was even close to abuse. Probably because it wasn't the most painful spanking/beating/flogging etc that I had ever received.

Mostly for us it is number 2 with occasionally number 3. Those are more playful and to be honest I have to work a little to get in the proper state of mind sometimes.

Originally posted by Marquis The fourth scene is one that I've only done on a handful of instances. It tends to be extremely satisfying for both me and my bottom, but often leaves me questioning how healthy our activities are and wondering if I'm flirting with abuse.

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I still struggle with numbers 1, 2, 3, & 4. Partly because of social conditioning, partly due to an abusive vanilla relationship (mentally abusive rather than sexually/physically abusive). So yeah, I often consider that wanting the things I do are reverting to allowing myself to be abused.

However, in reality I would like to be secure enough in a relationship to cope with any of the given situations.

Originally posted by Catalina I say any circumstances because there have been times we have been places I really didn't want to go, even resented on some level for a time afterward, but through it all it was and is what I really want and what feeds my soul like nothing else can, and perhaps I can be free to feel that now without the negative undertones

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This really struck a chord with me as I want and need to be pushed.

catalina_francisco said:

Why so?

Not a challenge, just a question. For me I think of abuse in terms of being negatively abusive belonging in the camp where there is absolutely no consent for it to go to the realms it has, and where the pyl certainly did not and does not want what is happening to go on under any circumstances.

I say any circumstances because there have been times we have been places I really didn't want to go, even resented on some level for a time afterward, but through it all it was and is what I really want and what feeds my soul like nothing else can, and perhaps I can be free to feel that now without the negative undertones because I am with someone who for the first time I have no doubts about in terms of how he feels about me, and what he wants for us both.

To me that is good, and relies on us not placing restrictions on behaviour that does not hurt anyone else. It is a fine line to walk though I agree, and one I do not think many want to experience but I think you put your finger on it when you said you are both intense people....those seem to be the type who are attracted to and can survive such a relationship IME.

Catalina

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Our ideas on abuse are similar, and I agree that it's a tough balance at times.

I guess a lot of it stems from self-confidence and caution on both of our parts. Although we enjoy the idea of being in situations that aren't immediately gratifying but long term beneficial, we have yet to build the confidence in each other it would take to actually do that.

This is one area in which I will concede that age probably has a lot to do with it.

At the end of the day, I very much want to be in the kind of TPE relationship I see you and others on the board are experiencing/have experienced. I just don't think either of us are entirely ready for that right now and we want to build towards that slowly.

neonflux said:

This is an interesting premise. Do you feel that those motivations are more likely to show themselves in D/s or SM or both? I guess I'm asking because my own proclivities lean more towards the SM end of the equation, although D/s is certainly an element of any scene. And how do you see those playing out for a PYL vs. pyl?

Click to expand...

I started a thread some time ago about The Normans, a married couple who would later set the legal standard as an example of battered wife syndrome. The Mrs. Norman eventually killed Mr. Norman in his sleep and used self defense as a justification.

I'm not sure how to answer this question other than to direct you to my comments in that thread.

neonflux said:

I don't know - it seems that "vanilla" relationships are as prone to being abusive as kinky ones - I was in a physically abusive relationship (with a woman) for a very short time and it was quit "vanilla" outside of the abuse.

The restraint - I am trying to think this through. It seems that we often assert within the BDSM world that the concept of consent is so ingrained in our "ethos" that we'd be less likely to slip into abuse. While I certainly think that there is something to this, just because BDSM requires that twe talk more clearly about sex than most people do, I am not so sure of that always being the case.

In another thread today, I mentioned that I know there is a side of me that can be very psychologically cruel but that I am hesitant to let out, in part because I know that I'm not skilled enough yet, but also because I'm not sure I'd always be able to tell when I had gone too far (a bottom's physical limits seem so much easier to gage). Or is that a part of the skill?

Is this making any sense?

~ Neon

P.S., I saw a Domme once, someone who is very skilled and whom I greatly respect, do something that she thought was geared to embarrass but that ended up being very degrading to the sub in question (not her property but someone she knew well and whom she'd been given permission to play with). It resolved itself - some responsibility certainly fell on the sub in this case - but it really made me think about this issue and my own limits when Topping.

Click to expand...

I'm inclined to believe that those who take an active interest in BDSM are offering themself a chance not to slip into an abusive relationship. The BDSM community offers us some great parameters and a general push towards healthy expression of D/s and S&M, which I think has been pivotal for a lot of people, like myself , in both allowing me to take things further, but also more responsibly then I might've without the knowledge the BDSM community offers me.

intothewoods said:

I'm glad you started this thread. My perpective is that of someone who is new to the scene, and trying to sort out what kind of relationship is right for me in the future.

I agree that if a relationship is consensual, it's not abuse. But does that mean it's healthy? Are both parties truly happy? I don't know the answer yet. And maybe I never will. And this isn't to say that if someone else's relationship is unhealthy in my mind that I should have any say about it. I'm just saying that just because it's consensual doesn't mean it's healthy.

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I agree.

I think the idea that BDSM can serve as a coping mechanism is valid, but I do believe there are limits for what it can do for an individual. There are people with a hole inside them that no amount of pain or control can ever fill, and trying to do so probably isn't always helpful to that person's sanity or self-esteem.

Netzach said:

I don't do punitive stuff. It just bothers me on some level and I can't get around it. Punitive is not getting my attention, my presence, the opportunity to be around me. So all my scenes fall into the first two categories in some form. Or a variant that's a bit further on the edge - D starts in on s and continues until she feels "done" reactions of s completely notwithstanding outside of trauma, obviously to be avoided. "How he's doing" of little import.

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I definitely relate to your discomfort around punitive stuff.

However, I'd be lying if I said that I didn't find it quite hot.

Let me give you some direct examples. When my first sub cheated on me during our long distance relationship, I offered her the chance to continue our relationship contingent on some very strict guidelines, all of which she agreed to happily at the time.

However, she neglected to follow the guidelines, I neglected to follow through on my threats to cut her off and our situation quickly got out of control with abusive language, etc.

I really regret letting things get that way. There was nothing said or done that wasn't codified ina contract or other agreement, but afterwards she felt abused and I felt like an abuser, and not in a hot way.

Bad situation, not trying to repeat it.

I can think of one particular time with my current sub that reached level 4. She did something I had asked her not to do and I was pissed. She was sorry she had done it, or rather more likely sorry she had upset me.

I tied her up and paddled her ass. It was not an erotic paddling in the traditional sense, there was no warm-up, no cadence, etc. The energy transfer was pure "take that, bitch".

Afterwards, we were cool. Beyond cool. I felt like she got what she deserved and she was happy for the opportunity to take it for me. I considered going the route of taking my attention away from her, but honestly, that seems like overkill to me sometimes.

It did leave us with some questions about how convenient this was, and whether or not we'd get too reliant on this sort of thing to settle disputes in the future, however.

It was scary in a lot of ways, but it also felt really good. It felt real. I don't know how else to describe it.

Quint said:

Thank you. That variant was what I was having trouble finding words for.

1 and 2 most common. 4, can't remember the last time but I know it's happened. Not really the mindplace we find ourselves anymore. I can see how you'd worry that it blurs the line into abuse sometimes; I was almost always left with the same question. But that can just as easily happen in Netz's rendition of 1-2. After a solid unlubed assfucking I still wonder what the hell I'm doing.

3 is still a good one, especially if I have flirted/shown off for/fucked someone else. I know he's not genuinely upset or I wouldn't have done it to begin with, but there is definitely a strong sense of re-marking his territory, which always hurts.

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I can definitely understand the re-marking territory thing.

I think a lot of it may come down to accepting your partner's insecurities, which I have to question the long-term productivity of. At the same time, it's hard to argue with what works.

Perfect_Trust said:

However, in reality I would like to be secure enough in a relationship to cope with any of the given situations.

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Me too.

Perfect_trust, I understand what you're saying and can relate. I just wanted to give you this feedback. What helps me get over this social conditioning, which is a good choice of words, btw, is remembering that I am consciously CHOOSING to submit. I'm asking for this, and declaring my decision, as a sane and mature adult, to trust this person and to give him/her my will.
Abuse to me, now, is when someone takes that ball and runs with it, then leaves me high and dry. That hurts more than any beating out there. Well, of course, I've only had a couple, (beatings) so maybe I'm speaking too soon. Anyhow... hang in there, the security in a relationship will come.
hugs!

Perfect_Trust said:

I still struggle with numbers 1, 2, 3, & 4. Partly because of social conditioning, partly due to an abusive vanilla relationship (mentally abusive rather than sexually/physically abusive). So yeah, I often consider that wanting the things I do are reverting to allowing myself to be abused.

However, in reality I would like to be secure enough in a relationship to cope with any of the given situations.



This really struck a chord with me as I want and need to be pushed.

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Marquis said:

Me too.

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Wow Marquis, that cutting is pretty intense! What was it done with?
I remember as a teen, carving my bfs initials into different parts of my body to show him how much I loved him. Who woulda thunk it would relate to this world of BDSM??!! I wish someone had introduced me then.. It sucks to be a grown woman and just figuring it out!

wenchhh said:

Wow Marquis, that cutting is pretty intense! What was it done with?
I remember as a teen, carving my bfs initials into different parts of my body to show him how much I loved him. Who woulda thunk it would relate to this world of BDSM??!! I wish someone had introduced me then.. It sucks to be a grown woman and just figuring it out!

Click to expand...

Straight razor.

Marquis said:

I definitely relate to your discomfort around punitive stuff.

However, I'd be lying if I said that I didn't find it quite hot.

Let me give you some direct examples. When my first sub cheated on me during our long distance relationship, I offered her the chance to continue our relationship contingent on some very strict guidelines, all of which she agreed to happily at the time.

However, she neglected to follow the guidelines, I neglected to follow through on my threats to cut her off and our situation quickly got out of control with abusive language, etc.

I really regret letting things get that way. There was nothing said or done that wasn't codified ina contract or other agreement, but afterwards she felt abused and I felt like an abuser, and not in a hot way.

Bad situation, not trying to repeat it.

I can think of one particular time with my current sub that reached level 4. She did something I had asked her not to do and I was pissed. She was sorry she had done it, or rather more likely sorry she had upset me.

I tied her up and paddled her ass. It was not an erotic paddling in the traditional sense, there was no warm-up, no cadence, etc. The energy transfer was pure "take that, bitch".

Afterwards, we were cool. Beyond cool. I felt like she got what she deserved and she was happy for the opportunity to take it for me. I considered going the route of taking my attention away from her, but honestly, that seems like overkill to me sometimes.

It did leave us with some questions about how convenient this was, and whether or not we'd get too reliant on this sort of thing to settle disputes in the future, however.

It was scary in a lot of ways, but it also felt really good. It felt real. I don't know how else to describe it.

Click to expand...

This makes total sense to me in the abstract. I never find it hot however - but I do like "existential" punishements. I had a play partner who was a very wealthy trust fund girl - she loved the idea of me punishing her for being a freaking spoiled brat and I could get into that. Not for what you've done but for who you are - kinda messed up. I am also perpetually punishing men for being men, while I am not a female supremacist or anything like that. I just always find "you have done X and now you shall suffer Y" false for me, or infantilizing in a not-hot way or just a cold shower. I really groove to the notion that that person has no idea why I'm punishing them and doesn't feel he/she has a right to know or can possibly understand my higher motives as it is, so just suffers it.

Marquis said:

This is one area in which I will concede that age probably has a lot to do with it.

At the end of the day, I very much want to be in the kind of TPE relationship I see you and others on the board are experiencing/have experienced. I just don't think either of us are entirely ready for that right now and we want to build towards that slowly.

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I think you have a point, though it is often seen as being uppity when I or others in the older age bracket mention it. I think to clarify, it is not a matter of age so much in the sense we are more mature, better, etc., but for me personally I know it is about having lived a life which had many tough spots and which I proved to myself and others that I could survive against all odds while also having the time to explore who I was and what I needed without pressure from anyone else. It was my own decision and the strength I have drawn from life experience and knowledge of myself has made it possible for me to submit on these terms without fearing the outcomes as much as I would if I felt I had not had a choice, or I could not survive in my own right. I think part of it also comes down to my philosophy about life, and the patterns I am now seeing emerging which do seem to support the idea that the universe or whatever deity you believe in really does work in mysterious ways to balance out the picture in time, bring cycles around to meet each other in a positive way....it sort of lends a calmness and surity I couldn't have had even 10-15 years ago. And yes, it is something which did need to be built on and is still in that building process and probably always will be on some level. Is hard to explain in words, especially at this late hour after racing around for days.

Catalina

I would say that all 4 levels are fine. In the right amount of balance to those involved. Too much of number 4, and my finger is on the eject button. Too much of number 1, and i think im being asked to control things? Lots of number 3 makes me smile a lot, and sing all day long lol.

With regard to number 4 questioning if its abuse? Nah.
If a person is wired to get thrilled by being degraded. And meets a partner who gets a reciprocal arousal by degrading. That's not abuse, that's a match made in haven surely?

Whereas i would find it totally permissable to use 4 in the context of a loving and consentually negotiated relationship. I would find it hard to play at that level with someone new. I simply wouldnt know enough of the person, how they'd cope with that, respond to that long term etc, to soothe my conscious.

So its like a balance then. You need all of them, but very much depending on your agreed relationship.
ITs a bit like smiling, i like to see a smile on my loved ones faces, smiling non stop, and they begin to look a bit 'special' .

catalina_francisco said:

I think you have a point, though it is often seen as being uppity when I or others in the older age bracket mention it. I think to clarify, it is not a matter of age so much in the sense we are more mature, better, etc., but for me personally I know it is about having lived a life which had many tough spots and which I proved to myself and others that I could survive against all odds while also having the time to explore who I was and what I needed without pressure from anyone else. It was my own decision and the strength I have drawn from life experience and knowledge of myself has made it possible for me to submit on these terms without fearing the outcomes as much as I would if I felt I had not had a choice, or I could not survive in my own right. I think part of it also comes down to my philosophy about life, and the patterns I am now seeing emerging which do seem to support the idea that the universe or whatever deity you believe in really does work in mysterious ways to balance out the picture in time, bring cycles around to meet each other in a positive way....it sort of lends a calmness and surity I couldn't have had even 10-15 years ago. And yes, it is something which did need to be built on and is still in that building process and probably always will be on some level. Is hard to explain in words, especially at this late hour after racing around for days.

Catalina

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For what it's worth, Cat, my gut tells me this is 1000% right. I just don't think it would be healthy for someone in their 20s to be in a 24/7 M/s relationship. Hey, maybe I'm wrong. But that's what my instinct says.