BDSM and self harm

Before I start to ramble on I will admit... Yes, you know straight away that I am going to mention Secretary in this thread.. lol

I guess I am starting this as I am curious to hear what experiences/opinions other people have on this matter. After watching the film, I started to think about the connection and wondered if this was actually true for anyone else. Whether BDSM has or can become an alternative to self harm, or is it just a myth that has stemmed from the film. I also started thinking as to whether people who do self harm are more open/interested in some of the practices/ideas that may be influenced by BDSM - namely the pain, punishment and psychological side of things. My initial thought is that this could be true. You can probably compare the intensity and the release from self harm to the sensations and feelings of being spanked or whipped in some way. But on the flip side, I did once know a girl who did self harm, but when it came to sex (i brought it up after talking to her about the film) I discovered that she is still very vanilla and anything such as crops or spanking didn't interest her one bit.

It would just be interesting to hear what other people have to say and if the comparison is closer or further apart than we initially thought.

I can only speak for myself.

I have never self-harmed, so for me personally, there is no link between BDSM and harming myself.

That may contribute to why I have found it a struggle to understand how pyl's can hurt themselves when told to by their PYL's. It has taken many posts by seri and captains wench to get me to understand it is possible to do that.

I am interested to hear what other peoples views are.
I don't discount that there may be a correlation for some people, and that BDSM may be an outlet or refuge if it is something they have struggled with.

Its an interesting idea for a thread naxalite

The idea that masochists/submissives (in particular) are the result of abuse, broken homes, have a tendency to be cutters, etc has been floating around since *long* the before The Secretary. It wasn't until DSMIV that the psych community didn't see it as a mental illness, in and of itself.

To a degree, everyone is a product of their environment; however, I don't believe that necessarily predicates someone to be kinky/masochistic/into bondage/etc.

CutieMouse said:

The idea that masochists/submissives (in particular) are the result of abuse, broken homes, have a tendency to be cutters, etc has been floating around since *long* the before The Secretary. It wasn't until DSMIV that the psych community didn't see it as a mental illness, in and of itself.

To a degree, everyone is a product of their environment; however, I don't believe that necessarily predicates someone to be kinky/masochistic/into bondage/etc.

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You have it explained it in a much better way than I could CM. You are right, the idea has been floating around. What I should of said is that the film brought it home somewhat for me and made me think about it alot more. Thank you for the input..

shy slave said:

I can only speak for myself.

I have never self-harmed, so for me personally, there is no link between BDSM and harming myself.

That may contribute to why I have found it a struggle to understand how pyl's can hurt themselves when told to by their PYL's. It has taken many posts by seri and captains wench to get me to understand it is possible to do that.

I am interested to hear what other peoples views are.
I don't discount that there may be a correlation for some people, and that BDSM may be an outlet or refuge if it is something they have struggled with.

Its an interesting idea for a thread naxalite

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Thank you, glad you agree... Will be good to hear what others have to say..

I did the same thing (think about it more) after I first saw that movie. the stranger thing, was that I watched it with my ex (when we were still married), and it disturbed him greatly, because he got stuck on "OMG that's you!" (Which I strongly disagreed with then, and now.)

It's easy to sit down and wonder what makes us react the way we do, until we drive ourselves crazy. Yes I had a rather rotten childhood- although my parents stopped spanking by age 7, yes I've had to do therapy, no I've never self-harmed... there are probably roots of that history in my reactions/needs/responses/triggers, but I've also known people who had storybook perfect childhoods, who are on the absolute furthest edge of edge play just because they love it, so the personally-messed-up-kink-o-meter stuff doesn't really make much sense to me. LOL

CutieMouse said:

I did the same thing (think about it more) after I first saw that movie. the stranger thing, was that I watched it with my ex (when we were still married), and it disturbed him greatly, because he got stuck on "OMG that's you!" (Which I strongly disagreed with then, and now.)

It's easy to sit down and wonder what makes us react the way we do, until we drive ourselves crazy. Yes I had a rather rotten childhood- although my parents stopped spanking by age 7, yes I've had to do therapy, no I've never self-harmed... there are probably roots of that history in my reactions/needs/responses/triggers, but I've also known people who had storybook perfect childhoods, who are on the absolute furthest edge of edge play just because they love it, so the personally-messed-up-kink-o-meter stuff doesn't really make much sense to me. LOL

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Yeah.. maybe it is just a coincidence for some people. It would be interesting if someone does eventually work out the reasons behind people's choices to do things like this. But until then, I guess we will continue to ponder.

Ok, I know some subs that self harm, but I also know people who aren't subs that self harm. I don't think it's directly related to being a sub. I know some subs that a bdsm relationship helps them not self harm, and yet others where it doesn't do an ounce of good.

As a teenager I was a self harmer - I quit when I got married and was in a relationship where I was allowed to defend myself and be angry. S&M had nothing to do with it, since I didn't acknowledge I'm a bit of a pain slut for another 8 years after that.

Hmmm, ya know... when I first watched this movie, it did occur to me, that there must be a correlation. That was before I myself was beaten into that space of comfort and pleasure...
I used to work at a childrens psych hospital, so spent a lot of time working with kids, mostly teen girls, who cut and self mutilated. They all said the same thing, that it was a release. That it didn't really hurt, but allowed them to outwardly show signs of pain that they were feeling emotionally. I suspect that there really isn't a correlation between that borderline behavior, and the masochism that some of us feel.
In Secretary, she definately makes a shift, from self mutilation to total devotion and obedience to her boss. What a powerful movie. I've discussed it with several people, and it's fun to watch their reactions... the ones who "get it" and the ones who don't.
Just my 2 cents.

I bit myself to the point of breaking skin. I had a friend who was a cutter. I bit, and she cut, so what we felt on the inside would be on the outside, where everyone could see.

awww, graceanne... thanks for sharing. (hugs)

naxalite0906 said:

Before I start to ramble on I will admit... Yes, you know straight away that I am going to mention Secretary in this thread.. lol

I guess I am starting this as I am curious to hear what experiences/opinions other people have on this matter. After watching the film, I started to think about the connection and wondered if this was actually true for anyone else. Whether BDSM has or can become an alternative to self harm, or is it just a myth that has stemmed from the film. I also started thinking as to whether people who do self harm are more open/interested in some of the practices/ideas that may be influenced by BDSM - namely the pain, punishment and psychological side of things. My initial thought is that this could be true. You can probably compare the intensity and the release from self harm to the sensations and feelings of being spanked or whipped in some way. But on the flip side, I did once know a girl who did self harm, but when it came to sex (i brought it up after talking to her about the film) I discovered that she is still very vanilla and anything such as crops or spanking didn't interest her one bit.

It would just be interesting to hear what other people have to say and if the comparison is closer or further apart than we initially thought.

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I will go out on a limb and comment on this. This is not a generalization or a theory; this is taken from personal experience so I will keep it simple and choose my words carefully.

Self-harm, as I understand it, is a vent. It can be a distortion of comfort at times. Manifestations of it can be both fixating and equally dissociative. I know it can also become habitual in as much as the need to vent dissipates but a 'learned' behaviour may continue in spite of cessation of triggers.

I can see degrees of familiarity with masochism however I really think that's an over-simplistic take. Most self-harm type behaviours won't release endorphins like responses at a physiological level.

Do I see a continuum between self-harm and BDSM activities? My short answer is no. Coincidence of both existing in the one individual may pass as interpretation of such. We are all very complex creatures. Nothing is ever going to be as cut and dried (unintentional phrase kept because it amuses me) as a movie portrayal . The mindset of 24/7 BDSM is not insular from the world and its influences. There are likely all manner of things in the world that are more likely to cause a flame of self-harm than even the subtlest expressions within BDSM as I know it.

I believe self-harm is a gage of stress. As such, I see it as a separate thing to self-identification as a submissive. I've never considered the self-recognition of submission and varying degrees of masochism past that in the same way. They merely co-exist and this in itself leads to influence in either direction. I don't believe they are intrinsically melded, symbiotic or interchangeable.

I've never self harmed in a cutting sort of way. I've dearly wanted to. It's a great fantasy of mine.

Fury

@}-}rebecca---- said:

Most self-harm type behaviours won't release endorphins like responses at a physiological level.

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I dunno about this. I used to cut (over what ended up being one of those young teen romances..yeah, talk about emo) and from what I recall of the sensations, it's the same ones I get when I'm getting flogged or whatnot. Just sort of a floaty, buzzy sensation. But I think that's pure physiology....certainly the happy-buzz I get from being flogged is not the unhappy, hate-myself buzz I got from cutting.

Cheshire D said:

I dunno about this. I used to cut (over what ended up being one of those young teen romances..yeah, talk about emo) and from what I recall of the sensations, it's the same ones I get when I'm getting flogged or whatnot. Just sort of a floaty, buzzy sensation. But I think that's pure physiology....certainly the happy-buzz I get from being flogged is not the unhappy, hate-myself buzz I got from cutting.

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These few words have really helped me understand the difference between the two types of pain and the reasoning behind both them

Thank you

As with most things BDSM-related, this is only my experience, and ymmv.

I was a cutter for over 6 years, it gradually started getting better over the past few years and although I have the urges sometimes, I haven't cut in... well, at least 10 months that I can remember.

Although I think that, for some people, cutting and BDSM may be related/interchangable/connected somehow, that isn't the case for me at all. Anything and everything that I do as a submissive is based on wanting to be dominated, wanting to have no control, etc.

Completely the opposite, cutting/burning/scratching were my ways of being IN control of a life that I felt was spinning out of control at the time. When my grandparents died, my parents split up, my dad was diagnosed with kidney failure and cancer, etc, I felt like my life was shattering all around me and I couldn't do anything about it. Hurting myself was a temporary relief from it all, because although the sensations were not pleasant, they were ones that I could control.

Sometimes I get way too babbly when it comes to my mental problems, so I'm going to stop now. lol


Heather

I actually have an interesting view on this because I never did self harm before I started into bdsm. Now there are time when I just feel the need to cry and no one is around so I beat myself, some one has to *giggles*.

Having read the posts made on this thread since yesterday , I think it might assist general understanding to differentiate between the different types of 'self harm'.

1. Self harm external to BDSM practise
2. Self harm as instructed in terms of consensual BDSM
3. Self harm as attention seeking
4. Self harm to enhance stimulus in erotic pursuits blending to masochism
5. Self harm in itself as a fetish pursuit

and maybe Miss Wench will do us the honor of defining her own

I initially alluded to type 1 which to me appeared to be the kind that was represented in the Movie introduced by Naxalite0906.

@}-}rebecca---- said:

Having read the posts made on this thread since yesterday , I think it might assist general understanding to differentiate between the different types of 'self harm'.

1. Self harm external to BDSM practise
2. Self harm as instructed in terms of consensual BDSM
3. Self harm as attention seeking
4. Self harm to enhance stimulus in erotic pursuits blending to masochism
5. Self harm in itself as a fetish pursuit

and maybe Miss Wench will do us the honor of defining her own

I initially alluded to type 1 which to me appeared to be the kind that was represented in the Movie introduced by Naxalite0906.

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I just have a hard time crying for emotional reasons lately. I'm not sure why, I just have a hard time crying period. And some times, I'm just so frusterated, or stressed that I feel all I want to do is cry, but I just can't do it. So, if there is no one around to bring me extream pain to force tears, often times I'll turn to it myself. I just "need" to feel the pain that's in me in an exturnal mannor. That was which I was refurring to in this instance.

As many here know, I also practice self harm as instructed by jounar. And up until this last beating by my playmate, I had held my own bruse record. *giggles* But then when I did do that, I paraided around my friends and shown off the marks created by myself per his instruction because I love attention, so I guess those two blended. Then again, I love showing off any marks given me as I'm a huge attention whore so I love that attention in general.

I don't know, there's just some times when the world seems so much and I just have to feel, put meaning to what I'm feeling, and if no one is around to help me with that, I have no qualms about doing it myself.

the captians wench said:

I just have a hard time crying for emotional reasons lately. I'm not sure why, I just have a hard time crying period. And some times, I'm just so frusterated, or stressed that I feel all I want to do is cry, but I just can't do it. So, if there is no one around to bring me extream pain to force tears, often times I'll turn to it myself. I just "need" to feel the pain that's in me in an exturnal mannor. That was which I was refurring to in this instance.

As many here know, I also practice self harm as instructed by jounar. And up until this last beating by my playmate, I had held my own bruse record. *giggles* But then when I did do that, I paraided around my friends and shown off the marks created by myself per his instruction because I love attention, so I guess those two blended. Then again, I love showing off any marks given me as I'm a huge attention whore so I love that attention in general.

I don't know, there's just some times when the world seems so much and I just have to feel, put meaning to what I'm feeling, and if no one is around to help me with that, I have no qualms about doing it myself.

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Well even though I am not the OP I wish to say thanks for the post Miss Wench. Take it from me , I am 'wired' too tears . I also have amazing resiliance of recovery . I'll cover for you in that department for now. Your expressions of self harm are very different to mine as you have described them. Not better or worse just different.

Mine go waaaaaaaaay back and I am very careful to conceal them . Right down to make up when they fringe areas that are more likely to be noticed . It's something I have practised on and off for near 30 years in varying degrees. Until now only the most intimate of people that know me have been aware. There is no issues of self disgust/hate with them, certainly not erotic in any form and they don't supplicate any lack being able to express myself emotionally. Marie19's post resonated the closest to my experiences though in whole I'll stick by my wordy initial post above, the behaviour for me moves into areas of abstract .

I have explored and recognise the value for me in definition 4 . It's not the same realm however. Valid yet unrelated. Thanks again for sharing your perspectives Miss Wenchy.

marieR19 said:

Completely the opposite, cutting/burning/scratching were my ways of being IN control of a life that I felt was spinning out of control at the time. When my grandparents died, my parents split up, my dad was diagnosed with kidney failure and cancer, etc, I felt like my life was shattering all around me and I couldn't do anything about it. Hurting myself was a temporary relief from it all, because although the sensations were not pleasant, they were ones that I could control.

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Heather , this part I understand in my own way. I keep shifting this behaviour from the term 'emotional' because under similar stress , I was as emotional as was permissible for the circumstances. Any emotion/reaction that didn't 'serve' others had to go into storage . I think this is were issues of as I put it 'venting' and as you insight-fully understand also 'control'. Most of mine happening on auto pilot which is why at times I describe them as dissociative. Simply is a limit to how much one human can survive when they are aware crash and burn is not an option , moderated self harm almost seems a sane choice under the circumstances. What's that damn Nietzsche quote "That which does not kill us makes us stronger. "

@}-}rebecca---- said:

Having read the posts made on this thread since yesterday , I think it might assist general understanding to differentiate between the different types of 'self harm'.

1. Self harm external to BDSM practise
2. Self harm as instructed in terms of consensual BDSM
3. Self harm as attention seeking
4. Self harm to enhance stimulus in erotic pursuits blending to masochism
5. Self harm in itself as a fetish pursuit

and maybe Miss Wench will do us the honor of defining her own

I initially alluded to type 1 which to me appeared to be the kind that was represented in the Movie introduced by Naxalite0906.

Click to expand...

Interesting. I hadn't even considered that there might be all these categories! I'm aware there are subs who have always self harmed. As for myself, I never did. I initially only desired pain in the context of power play. The idea of someone ordering me to crop myself is exciting. Cropping myself for it's own sake? It wouldn't occur to me.

Well, self-harm... I no longer do it and unlearning this behavior was part of a 3 year therapy.

I didn't cut but I scratched, with a key or whatever was handy. Didn't do it cause I hated myself but because I tend to overthink a lot of stuff. It was a way to shut down everything around me by concentrating on the pain and so I was able to go on with my life. My arms looked like I had a fight with a bunch of alleycats.

At least it gave me a little bit of control in the chaos of what I thought my life was at that time.

Well, the interesting thing is, I always was interested in pain and how you can perceive it as something good or bad. I stopped ripping my skin apart with ragged objects but the genuine interest in pain and how you can use it is still there... and today it's not only pain but cold, heat and all the other funny things you are able to feel, only in a more healthy fashion.

Ok, I wouldn't say that my history of self-harm is directly connected with my interest in BDSM. The self-harming was a technique I used... today I know a lot of other techniques and the interest is still there because I want to feel a lot of things I don't get otherwise.

I think, the Secretary is a wonderfull movie and when I first watched it I was able to understand the protagonist really well.

I've heard people complain about the fact that he tells her that she should stop hurting herself and she just stops. For me it was one of the most interesting moments of the movie and for some cases of self-harm out there is not so far from the truth.

There is an exchange...

I have watched this movie with a lot of people since I bought it and it is somehow amusing how puzzled some people are afterwards (and in between).

As wenchhh said before "it's fun to watch their reactions... the ones who "get it" and the ones who don't."

Part of the definition of self-harm/self-injurious behavior in much of the research that's out there is that it isn't done for sexual reasons. I think there is a definite difference between the pain/pleasure combination of BDSM and the straight-up pain for its own sake of self-injury.

I started self-harming when I was seventeen. I cut, I scratched, I burned, I punched things till my knuckles turned black and blue. There was a time when I needed to do it every day, sometimes more than once. It isn't about attention, because nobody knew, and it isn't sexual at all.

It has been, for me, a coping mechanism that became an addiction. It is about controlling my thoughts and emotions, or about feeling something when I've dissociated, or (like Heather and Rebecca) dealing with the events of my life when everything falls apart. Pain is simple, it is clearly nothing but pain, and it is centering because it isn't avoidable once you've started. Unfortunately, my means of regaining control ended up controlling me.

Like Rebecca, I'm very conscious about the evidence. I don't think my scars will ever go away. I have refused to go swimming for years. I don't want people to know - it was never about getting a reaction and I don't want to deal with their response.

My SO knows. He asked me to stop, but I already had. I knew it would come down to a choice between him and a blade (I'd made that choice before), and I knew he was actually worth stopping for. I'd have laughed if it was an order, and probably would've left him.

Having stopped doesn't mean that I don't want to do it any more. Every time I feel out of control or numb, I know there's a quick fix. But right now I choose not to.

Pain and BDSM, on the other hand? It's just an endorphin rush that feeds into the pleasure I'm already experiencing. I am starting to enjoy inflicting it, too.

Sorry to ramble on so long. This is something I've thought a lot about, and something I plan to do research on professionally someday. Thanks naxalite0906 for the interesting topic of conversation!

I'm not sure if its connected but i have an interest in BDSM and i also used to self harm. The only connection i can see is that self harm is often a way of asserting ones control over their own life, perhaps this is similar to the themes of control in BDSM

Interesting post tzigane.

One part that jumped out for me was your comment about scars and how you would not go swimming for years.

When shopping with Dolf we came out of a shop and she commented about the shop assistant having self harm scars.
I had not even noticed them, yet dolf said they were up her arms.

Like the movie Secretary, people either 'see' it or they don't.

Perhaps less people than we imagine notice things about us