Abuse: is there such a thing in the 'lifestyle'?

maybe my idea of abuse is different than others, but i'm shocked at how many people say it's ok for their Dom to 'abuse' them because they have a TPE. i was abused for 10 years in a 'nilla relationship and i'm talking being punched in the face, things thrown at my head, one night beaten so bad that i could not see straight, all out of anger. is it really ok for your Dom to do these things simply because "He's Master"? lashing out in anger and becoming down right violent and beating you so badly you cannot see straight is ok? simply because "He's Master"? i guess i just don't understand that this concept at all....obviously i understand that different things work for different people and what works for me may not work for you, but wow, abuse is abuse is abuse....i would think...

a few also said that in their relationship there would be no such thing as abuse, is this true for almost everyone? do we as pyl's have the right to stand up for ourselves when we feel we've been 'abused'? or should we sit back and take it because they know what's best for us, and after all we did give up 'power' to them. i'm just curious about other peoples ideas on this and i'm not trying to start a fight, just a discussion, honest, i just want to see what everyone has to say on this issue......

IMO, there is a fine line between That It Is Which We Do (or however that dammed phrase goes) and abuse.

For Myself I see being a Dominant being in control of Myself first and foremost. To Me, if I were to get out of control and lash out in blind anger then it would no longer be Dominance, because in that moment I would not be in control of Myself. Yes, she has given Me consent to do with her as I please, but that is given with an underlying trust that even as I am inflicting pain and or discipline on her, that I will not harm her. I believe that if I were to lash out in rage without being in control I would be in violation of the vows I made when I placed that collar around her neck.

TPE is an acronym that gets thrown around a lot, and it means Total Power EXCHANGE. It is the submissive that gives us the power over them by offering their submission.

I think that part of the issue is also that there are many differing views of abuse. When I hear that term I think of the Lifetime Move Network stereotype overweight unshaven guy in boxers and and an A-Shirt that knocks back his 15th beer, before going upstairs to punch his wife in the eye to compensate for his own weaknesses.

We are all humans, and there are times when emotions can get the better of us, but I do think that as a general rule those of us in the lifestyle do our best to keep things in control.

To make a long post short, (OK I know that you are thinking its way too many keystrokes too late for that) I do think that things in this lifestyle can get out of hand if anger flows enough to override control and things go too far and injuries happen.

MasterPhoenix said:

IMO, there is a fine line between That It Is Which We Do (or however that dammed phrase goes) and abuse.

For Myself I see being a Dominant being in control of Myself first and foremost. To Me, if I were to get out of control and lash out in blind anger then it would no longer be Dominance, because in that moment I would not be in control of Myself. Yes, she has given Me consent to do with her as I please, but that is given with an underlying trust that even as I am inflicting pain and or discipline on her, that I will not harm her. I believe that if I were to lash out in rage without being in control I would be in violation of the vows I made when I placed that collar around her neck.

TPE is an acronym that gets thrown around a lot, and it means Total Power EXCHANGE. It is the submissive that gives us the power over them by offering their submission.

I think that part of the issue is also that there are many differing views of abuse. When I hear that term I think of the Lifetime Move Network stereotype overweight unshaven guy in boxers and and an A-Shirt that knocks back his 15th beer, before going upstairs to punch his wife in the eye to compensate for his own weaknesses.

We are all humans, and there are times when emotions can get the better of us, but I do think that as a general rule those of us in the lifestyle do our best to keep things in control.

To make a long post short, (OK I know that you are thinking its way too many keystrokes too late for that) I do think that things in this lifestyle can get out of hand if anger flows enough to override control and things go too far and injuries happen.

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hey, You just described my ex husband! have You met Him?? LOL just kidding and honestly i guess i shouldn't be making jokes hehe..but i couldn't help it. as far as what You said, i obviously, agree with You completely and thank You for answering and You're right, i guess others may not see abuse the same way i do. i lived in an abusive relationship where every single day i was either emotionally, or physically abused. i was told daily atleast 10 times a day that i was worthless and no one but Him would ever love me or put up with me. i was hit, punched, spit on, had things thrown at me atleast once a month because he was angry with me over something (usually something really stupid) for me, if Master were to 'abuse' me i would lose all trust and for sure ALL respect for Him and furthermore could not submit to Him any longer, as i refuse to live in fear and walk on egg shells not knowing what will set Him off, ever again. been there done that, am a better person for having gone through it, but refuse to put myself in that situation again.

Edited to add: i do understand that in the heat of the moment emotions get heated, anger erupts and sometimes hurtful words are exchanged this is not what i'm talking about for the most part though i do think when things get heated it's time to walk away and come back when you can deal with things like adults. i do realize that sometimes anger overtakes our control and we do things we wouldn't normally do. i see a big difference between being punished like i was when He was here (with the crop) and being punished by Him being so pissed off that He hauls off and punches me in the face, sorry, in my opinion Dom or not..He has no RIGHT to do that to me.....

lil_slave_rose said:

I do understand that in the heat of the moment emotions get heated, anger erupts and sometimes hurtful words are exchanged this is not what i'm talking about for the most part though i do think when things get heated it's time to walk away and come back when you can deal with things like adults. i do realize that sometimes anger overtakes our control and we do things we wouldn't normally do. i see a big difference between being punished like i was when He was here (with the crop) and being punished by Him being so pissed off that He hauls off and punches me in the face, sorry, in my opinion Dom or not..He has no RIGHT to do that to me.....

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First I want to say that I am sorry that you had to suffer and be abused as you were. I think everyone has the right to consent to what they feel is right or wrong and its clear that you didn't consent to being punched into the face or to the other things that happened. So yes, it was abuse.

Perhaps later I will offer more to this conversation, but for now I will just offer this as something to consider or think about.

you said, "it's time to walk away "

For some that is not an option. Sometimes even if the PLY wants to walk away, doing so can be more abusive in someways to some.

I am not saying that it is ever ok to haul off and punch a woman in the face, I am just saying that I know plenty of woman who would rather that than for him to walk away from them in anger. I am sure if given the choice they would prefer nether, but it is something to consider in light of your own thoughts.

RJMasters said:

First I want to say that I am sorry that you had to suffer and be abused as you were. I think everyone has the right to consent to what they feel is right or wrong and its clear that you didn't consent to being punched into the face or to the other things that happened. So yes, it was abuse.

Perhaps later I will offer more to this conversation, but for now I will just offer this as something to consider or think about.

you said, "it's time to walk away "

For some that is not an option. Sometimes even if the PLY wants to walk away, doing so can be more abusive in someways to some.

I am not saying that it is ever ok to haul off and punch a woman in the face, I am just saying that I know plenty of woman who would rather that than for him to walk away from them in anger. I am sure if given the choice they would prefer nether, but it is something to consider in light of your own thoughts.

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*nods* and i agree, i am one of those submissives of which you are talking about. i do not like to be left alone, i do not like to be 'walked away from' when He is angry, and alot of that is the reason i did get abused, because i wouldn't 'allow' Him to walk away when he tried,but that in turn did not give him the right to handle it the way that he did, nor did it mean that i deserved it because i wanted to 'talk it out' instead of being walked away from. i guess what it comes down to in the end is self control, and to me, a Dom who is in control of Himself would not act out like that in anger, no matter what the pyl had done. as i said i do not like to be left alone, i have abandonment issues, BUT if Master were to say 'i'm really pissed off right now, and i need to walk away from you and regain my thoughts, or i'm afraid i will harm you' maybe not in those exact words, even if it was 'to the corner NOW, and do not move until i come back' i would grateful that He chose that instead choosing to act out in anger and harm me. does that make sense? it shows that He has self control. no, i probably wouldn't like having to stand in the corner or the fact that He left me alone, BUT i would hate the alternative even more so,and the alternative would more than likely damage our relationship beyond repair, and again this may come from my past..i dont' know..i'm not sayin my thoughts are right by no means, i just would like to see other's opinions on this is all ...thanks RJ for answering, you did give me food for thought

lil_slave_rose said:

maybe my idea of abuse is different than others, but i'm shocked at how many people say it's ok for their Dom to 'abuse' them because they have a TPE. i was abused for 10 years in a 'nilla relationship and i'm talking being punched in the face, things thrown at my head, one night beaten so bad that i could not see straight, all out of anger. is it really ok for your Dom to do these things simply because "He's Master"? lashing out in anger and becoming down right violent and beating you so badly you cannot see straight is ok? simply because "He's Master"? i guess i just don't understand that this concept at all....obviously i understand that different things work for different people and what works for me may not work for you, but wow, abuse is abuse is abuse....i would think...

a few also said that in their relationship there would be no such thing as abuse, is this true for almost everyone? do we as pyl's have the right to stand up for ourselves when we feel we've been 'abused'? or should we sit back and take it because they know what's best for us, and after all we did give up 'power' to them. i'm just curious about other peoples ideas on this and i'm not trying to start a fight, just a discussion, honest, i just want to see what everyone has to say on this issue......

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I'm sorry for your experience, but what I think will help you to understand better is that you are thinking of your experience of abuse where it was not consensual, it was not wanted, and so was abuse and trying to fit it into a consensual TPE relationship where physical violence (or psychological, emotional etc) is accepted and part of what works for those in the relationship. My definition of abuse is something which occurs non-consensually, and is meant to not only seriously harm, but comes from a place where love does not reside. OTOH, for me TPE has to come from a consensual position, and either at the hands or commands of the one who I share a loving relationship with....I would not have agreed to TPE with someone I was casually playing with or not going to commit to a long term relationship with, it just wouldn't work that way for me.


In the context we share, yes he is free to do anything he wishes and though he is not one to actually get off on punching anyone, he has used a flogger on my face (not to erotically trail across it), has beaten me to where blood becomes a part of the play (actually he now loves this), and has physically used me to the point where I was either hysterical or throwing up profusely. Was it abuse? If I had not agreed to a TPE relationship I would say yes, but truth is I wanted a relationship where I could experience extremes with someone I shared love with, and I was not looking for another version of the safe vanilla relationships I have had in the past, or the ones where I was in total control of what happened and how, when, why...and yes, I have been in abusive relationships and got out, as well as had others around me experience the same and worse and look to me for help, so it is not because I am misguided and don't know when I am being abused or that I have a choice.

This is my choice and as perverse and sick as it may seem to some, I love it. It is that simple. But it is also a reminder of why I always caution people against jumping into such an agreement, just as F cautioned and forced me to take extra time thinking before making the step....once taken, it is not usually something you can reverse or switch off until you feel up to it again, and it is not a game to play to liven your life up a bit or impress others because as you know, most are not impressed and it is not always as fun as games are meant to be.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/134/376824463_35ca304946_t.jpg Catalina

catalina_francisco said:

I'm sorry for your experience, but what I think will help you to understand better is that you are thinking of your experience of abuse where it was not consensual, it was not wanted, and so was abuse and trying to fit it into a consensual TPE relationship where physical violence (or psychological, emotional etc) is accepted and part of what works for those in the relationship. My definition of abuse is something which occurs non-consensually, and is meant to not only seriously harm, but comes from a place where love does not reside. OTOH, for me TPE has to come from a consensual position, and either at the hands or commands of the one who I share a loving relationship with....I would not have agreed to TPE with someone I was casually playing with or not going to commit to a long term relationship with, it just wouldn't work that way for me.


In the context we share, yes he is free to do anything he wishes and though he is not one to actually get off on punching anyone, he has used a flogger on my face (not to erotically trail across it), has beaten me to where blood becomes a part of the play (actually he now loves this), and has physically used me to the point where I was either hysterical or throwing up profusely. Was it abuse? If I had not agreed to a TPE relationship I would say yes, but truth is I wanted a relationship where I could experience extremes with someone I shared love with, and I was not looking for another version of the safe vanilla relationships I have had in the past, or the ones where I was in total control of what happened and how, when, why...and yes, I have been in abusive relationships and got out, as well as had others around me experience the same and worse and look to me for help, so it is not because I am misguided and don't know when I am being abused or that I have a choice.

This is my choice and as perverse and sick as it may seem to some, I love it. It is that simple. But it is also a reminder of why I always caution people against jumping into such an agreement, just as F cautioned and forced me to take extra time thinking before making the step....once taken, it is not usually something you can reverse or switch off until you feel up to it again, and it is not a game to play to liven your life up a bit or impress others because as you know, most are not impressed and it is not always as fun as games are meant to be.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/134/376824463_35ca304946_t.jpg Catalina

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i guess what i don't understand is where you said 'is it abuse? if i had not agreed to a TPE then i would say yes' why does this change what abuse is?? Master just pointed out to me that we are not seeing it the same because you are talking about 'extreme play' as in..using the flogger on your face in an attempt to take it to the extreme..where i am more talking about, say, smacking me across the face with a flogger/crop/whatever, because He is angry....Master smacks me across the face with His hand during scenes quite often, but if we were in an argument, He would not.....that is more the abuse i'm talking about..not extreme play..there is a difference *smiles* hope this made sense and maybe will help clear up our views?

lil_slave_rose said:

i guess what i don't understand is where you said 'is it abuse? if i had not agreed to a TPE then i would say yes' why does this change what abuse is??

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What changes it is informed consent. Even if he acted in anger, that is something I would accept, but not something he is likely to do except if pushed to extreme curcumstances.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/152/377634441_339a641b0c_t.jpg Catalina

A good dom knows the difference. Yes the dom is in controle, but he is also acting for his sub. When pain is solely for pleasure a good dom can tell when he's gone too far. He should also be able to know when he's gotten his point across in a punishment. In my oppinion, going far enough to cause serious physical injury is a lack of controle on the dom's part. A dom's purpose is to punish, not injur. There is a difference.

PleasurePuppy said:

A good dom knows the difference. Yes the dom is in controle, but he is also acting for his sub. When pain is solely for pleasure a good dom can tell when he's gone too far. He should also be able to know when he's gotten his point across in a punishment. In my oppinion, going far enough to cause serious physical injury is a lack of controle on the dom's part. A dom's purpose is to punish, not injur. There is a difference.

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You are only talking about a Dom/me here, not a sadist. Sadists have needs which go beyond the sometimes carefully planned, executed to the book, within limits, often restricted aspects of being solely dominant...as do some masochists. Part of the beauty lies in being able to go beyond what is more often acceptable to what reaches into the depths of SM with a passion and insatiability that demands feeding. And not all pain has to have anything to do with punishment, often it is more to do with reward and pleasure.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/186/376675788_f2e2be5814_t.jpg Catalina

i just woke up so if this is rambly i apologize:

as members of a BDSM community, we hear the word abuse get thrown around a lot, both from those in and outside of our way of thinking. becuase of this, some people just seem to avoid the issue, or worse ignore the issue. there are things that i would consider abuse.

the first is in a situation where there is no consent. consent is what seperates a PYL with a whip and a willing pyl at his feet, and a drunkan husband who beats his wife or children. without consent, let me go one step foward and say "informed consent", the PYL with the whip would be practising another form of abuse. Included in my catagory of consenst is observing and respecting limits. if a pyl has a limit, then they have onnly consented to participate up to that point, and no farther. (For those of you who do not have limits, you consented to be in that situation, so this applies to you as well, though in a slightly different manor.

the second situation is when serious or permanant physical harm is done. as catalina already pointed out, diffrent people have diffrent extremes, and within these extremes, the points that they consent to push thier bodies to. even so, there is a point where consent doesnt matter. the defense "she consented to let me chop of her arm" is never going to fly in court, nor anywhere else. when permanant physical harm is being cuased, it has crossed the line of safe sane and consensual. permanant, or lasting, physical harm is no longer in the realm of BDSM, but in the realm of abuse.

myinnerslut said:

as members of a BDSM community, we hear the word abuse get thrown around a lot, both from those in and outside of our way of thinking. becuase of this, some people just seem to avoid the issue, or worse ignore the issue. there are things that i would consider abuse.

the first is in a situation where there is no consent. consent is what seperates a PYL with a whip and a willing pyl at his feet, and a drunkan husband who beats his wife or children. without consent, let me go one step foward and say "informed consent", the PYL with the whip would be practising another form of abuse. Included in my catagory of consenst is observing and respecting limits. if a pyl has a limit, then they have onnly consented to participate up to that point, and no farther. (For those of you who do not have limits, you consented to be in that situation, so this applies to you as well, though in a slightly different manor.

the second situation is when serious or permanant physical harm is done. as catalina already pointed out, diffrent people have diffrent extremes, and within these extremes, the points that they consent to push thier bodies to. even so, there is a point where consent doesnt matter. the defense "she consented to let me chop of her arm" is never going to fly in court, nor anywhere else. when permanant physical harm is being cuased, it has crossed the line of safe sane and consensual. permanant, or lasting, physical harm is no longer in the realm of BDSM, but in the realm of abuse.

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Yes, but it is about TPE situations which IMO don't have limits assigned by the pyl...that is part of what you give up. I think the chopping off an arm is another case of dragging out the extremes, though there may be other comparable incidents, but even so, using a legal defense as reason why it isn't acceptable doesn't work for me as much of what we do, with consent, does not have legal support if taken inside a courtroom or brought to the attention of police. I was in a situation once where he said he was going to cut a nipple off, after mentioning several times in past weeks how fascinated he was with the idea, bringing it up a few times throughout that day, and actually taking the steps right up to the moment of cutting which gave every indication he was going to do it...did I sit there like a robot? Nope, I'm not that good so I was a little stressed, but I did accept he was going to do it and waited...thankfully he didn't and was only playing with my head.

I also think though it is a popular concept that permanent harm should not happen and if it does it is abuse, that it is not acknowledging that the unexpected can and does happen, and therefore may not be a good playground for anyone unwilling to accept that is a possibility. For instance, when trying something new, maybe cutting for example, there are risks involved which for some people, no amount of preparation and careful planning and adhering to all the safety rules pertaining to that activity will prevent permanent damage ranging from mild to severe. Cutting will usually leave a permanent mark...that to me does not make it abuse, I expect a mark..so out goes the theory permanent marks or injury are abusive.....cutting can also for some, unexpectedly result in infections which can be mild or severe.

These things cannot always be predicted, but I don't believe it is fair after the fact to label it abusive. I think responsibility should be taken by those who enter the lifestyle and want to enjoy all it can offer, not just look to the Dominant to control that risk and take responsibility for anything that may be unexpected. I also think if someone gives consent to permanent marking or something which may result in a permanent injury, it is not up to others to label it abusive because they are not personally into the same thing.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/134/376824463_35ca304946_t.jpg Catalina

When I talk to groups about intimate partner violence (IPV - still called domestic violence in most settings) and BDSM questions come up I refer to this sort of list. It can be a hard question to consider, but as far as I am concerned it is the sub/bottom that is the one that knows when the line is crossed. I understand that some of the items listed here may not be agreed to by all here. It is more about the total frame of mind then each and every line.

The key difference between S&M and Abuse, is "consent".
* Consent = Is an agreed approval of what is done and/or proposed by another.
* Abuse = to use so as to injure or damage.

S&M
* Is based on the safe, sane, consensual theory
* S&M is a controlled environment
* S&M has safe words to stop the scene
* In a S&M scene the dominant looks out for the well being of the submissive
* S&M can be an erotic sexual encounter
* In S&M both partners are enjoying themselves
* in S&M the dominant respects limits
* In S&M there is mutual respect
* In S&M the relationship is fulfilling
* In S&M both parties feel they contribute towards the relationships
* In S&M one can ask their partner to "play"
* In S&M relationship there is trust
* In S&M a submissive voluntarily serves the dominant
* S&M is about building trust
* S&M builds self esteem
* S&M builds the spirit of a submissive


Abuse
* Abuse is not negotiated
* Abuse is an out of control environment
* Abuse does not have safe words
* An abuser does not give a damn about the victim
* Abuse is always one sided
* Abuse is never negotiated.
* In abuse, no one is enjoying the results
* The abuser is into non consensual violence
* The victim has no respect towards the abuser
* In abuse the victim is harmed
* In abuse both parties are left unfulfilled
* The abuser always feel they are superior
* A person does not ask for abuse
* In an abusive relationship there is no trust
* The abuser does not care for consent
* Abuse has no trust
* Abuse destroys self esteem
* An abuser destroys the spirit of the victim



.

catalina_francisco said:

Yes, but it is about TPE situations which IMO don't have limits assigned by the pyl...that is part of what you give up. I think the chopping off an arm is another case of dragging out the extremes, though there may be other comparable incidents, but even so, using a legal defense as reason why it isn't acceptable doesn't work for me as much of what we do, with consent, does not have legal support if taken inside a courtroom or brought to the attention of police. I was in a situation once where he said he was going to cut a nipple off, after mentioning several times in past weeks how fascinated he was with the idea, bringing it up a few times throughout that day, and actually taking the steps right up to the moment of cutting which gave every indication he was going to do it...did I sit there like a robot? Nope, I'm not that good so I was a little stressed, but I did accept he was going to do it and waited...thankfully he didn't and was only playing with my head.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/134/376824463_35ca304946_t.jpg Catalina

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i understand how in your situation and in other TPE type relationships the pyl has no limits. what i was trying to say was that even in this situation, consent can still be found. you consented when you entered the relationship to be in a relationship with no limits. since the consent is present in some form, i would say this is NOT abuse. unlike a girl who gets kidnapped of the street and forced into a relationship in which she cannot say no in the situations in which she does not want to and never consented to participate in. thats abuse, as well as a host of other problems.

myinnerslut said:

i understand how in your situation and in other TPE type relationships the pyl has no limits. what i was trying to say was that even in this situation, consent can still be found. you consented when you entered the relationship to be in a relationship with no limits. since the consent is present in some form, i would say this is NOT abuse. unlike a girl who gets kidnapped of the street and forced into a relationship in which she cannot say no in the situations in which she does not want to and never consented to participate in. thats abuse, as well as a host of other problems.

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Sorry, I took it the other way....and yes, it is true, consent has been given and doesn't need to be given ever again. Here, have a cookie with me....

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/184/378277993_fecc21bd9a_t.jpg Catalina

catalina_francisco said:

Sorry, I took it the other way....and yes, it is true, consent has been given and doesn't need to be given ever again. Here, have a cookie with me....

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/184/378277993_fecc21bd9a_t.jpg Catalina

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yay!! cookie!!!

If you want further information about BDSM and abuse check out the National Leather Association's Domentic Violence Project at

/NLA-I Domestic Violence Project

I have come to realize abuse is in the eye of the beholder. Sometimes I read things here and I think it is abusive. But as Catalina has pointed out numerous times, she gave Francisco complete control and therefore abuse really can't exist. (not picking on you Cat, I am simply using you as an example since you are engaged in this discussion) I can't apply my life experiences and preferences to her relationship and try to make it fit my terms, no more than she can do the same to mine. Catalina is obviously very happy and head over heels in love..so even though it is hard for me to understand, I have to agree her relationship is not abusive.

I hesitiate to throw this wrench in the conversation but it is something I have been thinking about since this topic came up. We all know people in abusive relationships can end up being sympathetic with the abuser and even becoming an enabler. At what point does abuse end and consent begin? I am not suggesting this has happened with Cat or anyone else here, so please don't jump on me for asking! lol It's just something I have been mulling over.

callinectes said:

I hesitiate to throw this wrench in the conversation but it is something I have been thinking about since this topic came up. We all know people in abusive relationships can end up being sympathetic with the abuser and even becoming an enabler. At what point does abuse end and consent begin? I am not suggesting this has happened with Cat or anyone else here, so please don't jump on me for asking! lol It's just something I have been mulling over.

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For me, if the abuse came first, there is no consent, at least not of free will. Many women in abused relationships will defend their SO and claim they don't have aproblem, for a variey of reasonss most of which revolve around self esteem, shame, guilt, confusion, fear, and just being too tired to fight back anymore.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/186/378310258_018aedd560_t.jpg Catalina

catalina_francisco said:

For me, if the abuse came first, there is no consent, at least not of free will.

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Excellent point. I hadn't thought of it quite that way but the distinction is obvious.

When I think of abuse, I think of it in terms of anger and of the results to the spirit or soul of the abused. I was in an abusive marriage, not physical abuse but verbal and emotional abuse. I got to the point where I was defending him to my family and friends, and my spirit was completely broken. I believed at one point that it was my fault, I deserved it, this was all I deserved, etc. I think that, for me, is the biggest difference beyond consent, with abuse. I know from experience that victims can 'consent' to abuse through conditioning, so consent at that level doesn't excuse the abuse. From the abuser's position, I see the actions as coming from anger, insecurity, weakness. The real difference for me between abuse and what has been discussed about TPE and the actions within that type of relationship is that yes, the consent is there from the beginning and that the Dom is not acting out of weakness or insecurity, although he may sometimes act out of anger. We all do that, we're all human. The abuser doesn't respect the victim, he uses the victim to make himself bigger and better, to get out those insecurities and weaknesses - just like someone who comes home and kicks the dog everyday because his boss treated him badly. The victim comes to fear the abuser, not respect him. I don't want to submit to my Dominant out of fear, but out of trust and respect and yes, even love.

Sin asked Rose in another thread what her definition of a doormat is in terms of D/s. I'm not Rose and this isn't that thread, but I know what I believe 'doormat' means in the context being discussed. To me a doormat is someone who has no thoughts or feelings of his/her own. It is the kind of person who consents to anything because she doesn't necessarily believe she is worth anything. I don't see the doormat sub/slave as someone who submits out of strength and trust and respect, but someone who submits out of insecurity and weakness and maybe even fear. I don't know if that is what Rose was getting at or not, but it is my definition of 'doormat' in this context.

I'm not sure I said that all very well. Abuse is a topic that is a difficult one for me because of my personal experience with it. I healed from it by helping others in similar situations. But I know it's a touchy issue here, for good reason, and that everyone sees abuse a bit differently. For me, it's very simple. If what is occuring breaks me down rather than boosts me up, disrespects me rather than respect me, then it's abuse. Plain and simple.

Then again, as an abuse counsellor with abused women and children, what I have learned more than anything is that abuse is not a result of anger, mental illness, drugs/drink, but they are excuses used by those who abuse. Why can I say they are not the reason? Because simply put, most DV abusers may get angry often and with many people, but it is the very rare one who takes the next step to physical violence otherwise they would already be in prison for assault against their boss, friends, the local shopkeeper etc., which in a way would be great because they would not be at home dishing it out to their partner....reality is, they control it in situations with other people who in the eyes of the law have more power to have them held accountable by law....unfortunately, it is still a fact that most abused women do not win their cases in court (if they even get it as far as court) and either continue to be abused or end up a statistic as a murder victim. So no, I do not see abuse is caused by anger and loss of control...abuse is a choice which is made consciously and with care so to minimise risk to the abuser.

Catalina

very interesting topic...and one i've always wished to see discussed calmly, intelligently, and without flame-throwing. hopefully this will be a good start...

i define abuse as the intent (and then the following through on that intent) to cause serious harm to another, through physical, emotional, or psychological battery. notice consent doesn't figure in anywhere there...that's because for me, it's irrelevant to the definition/concept of abuse.

i am one of those who says that my Master has every right to abuse me, because of the parameters of our relationship. i don't care for the term TPE (as it does not completely apply to a situation such as ours...no "power" was exchanged), so i will just keep it simple and say M/s. i am his slave, his property, and he may do what he wills with me, without exception. there was no list of guidelines he had to follow, no obligations he had to meet, or else the relationship would be null and void. such an exchange to me negates any M/s. this was not a business contract, it was an understanding and acceptance of ownership.

so in my lifestyle anyway, abuse does have a place. it is just another of those harsh realities of life, and something that i accepted was a likely possibility, along with everything else, when i became slave.

this type of situation certainly wouldn't work for all, wouldn't work for most to be honest, but for some of us it just suits who we are and what we believe in to the very core of our souls.

catalina_francisco said:

Then again, as an abuse counsellor with abused women and children, what I have learned more than anything is that abuse is not a result of anger, mental illness, drugs/drink, but they are excuses used by those who abuse. Why can I say they are not the reason? Because simply put, most DV abusers may get angry often and with many people, but it is the very rare one who takes the next step to physical violence otherwise they would already be in prison for assault against their boss, friends, the local shopkeeper etc., which in a way would be great because they would not be at home dishing it out to their partner....reality is, they control it in situations with other people who in the eyes of the law have more power to have them held accountable by law....unfortunately, it is still a fact that most abused women do not win their cases in court (if they even get it as far as court) and either continue to be abused or end up a statistic as a murder victim. So no, I do not see abuse is caused by anger and loss of control...abuse is a choice which is made consciously and with care so to minimise risk to the abuser.

Catalina

Click to expand...

I agree fully with that statement, Cat. Which is why I pulled anger out as I talked about Dominants. But many people don't realize that much of abuse stems from a sense of entitlement and a skewed vision of what the person/relationship/world should be. Abuse is often very controlled and specific. Many abusers are fully in control as they are abusing their victims. Of course, there are those who do act out of anger and lack of control, but they are the ones who end up in jail for it. To me, the truly frightening abusers are those who are so controlled, and that was how my ex was. Very controlled and specific in his abuse.

My ex suffers from narcissistic personality disorder. He truly believes the world revolves around him. As long as he had me to abuse, he was seen by the outside world as a real charmer and great guy. Once I left, he had no where to direct all that frustration from the outside world and he started to make enemies because he started to direct that verbal abuse on those around him, particularly his subordinates at work. He typically doesn't last more than a couple of years in a job because his co-workers file complaints about his treatment of them and his bosses come to realize that he wants their jobs. But he usually leaves before they fire him. That way he can still say that he's never been fired.

I've read this carefully and I would like to chime in, if no one minds.

Total Power Exchange is an agreement between two people in the lifestyle commonly referred to as BDSM, whose founding principle is the Safe, Sane and Consensual. For my own edification, I would like to break that down, in an attempt to answer - at least for Me - the main question posed.

To have Total Power Exchange, One exchanges something with another: The “One” being the Dominant, the other being the submissive. What is being exchanged? In My opinion it is truly power; but what power? The submissive freely gives up her power to control the self. That is clearly understood, I think, by all in this discussion. But what is it exchanged for? That is where I tend to disagree with those who imply (or at least I infer from what I read) the kind of abuse you suffered was not abuse within the TPE agreement you made; pre or post abuse. The Dominant’s part of the exchange is the foundation of BDSM; the insurance that life for the submissive will be Safe and Sane (the consensual part is built into the TPE agreement).

If the Dominant is true to the values of “true” Dominants then the health and growth of mind and body of the submissive become paramount for the Dom. If, as you say, people are beaten not for the erotic pleasure of B/both, and such beating is harmful to the submissive (not just painful, because pain and non malignant bruises are common and welcomed by most practitioners of BDSM) then it is abuse; whether in the confines of BDSM, SM, or TPE agreements.

If the exchange, in TPE is not a true exchange then it is not TPE and therefore abuse, to Me is very possible.

Thanks for initiating this topic, it is a very good thought provoking one.

MnM