Love vs Pain

I'm taking everyones' advice about increasing communication with my wife. It's not easy to talk about, so I'm taking it slow. Anyway, she keeps bringing up something that I don't know how to respond to.

She can't understand why I would want to inflict pain on someone I love. I really love her and I would hate seeing her be seriously injured, but I wouldn't mind giving her a little spanking now and then. It goes the other way too. She can't understand why she would inflict pain on me if she loves me.

I know why it appeals to me, but I don't know how to put it into words. Any ideas? I don't want to hear that she's just genetically programmed to be vanilla because I'm not giving up hope.

It's a good question I think, and one that I tried to wrap my head around at one point as well. Which is hard enough, to try and get your own head around the idea. Trying to explain it to my mom when she asked this question was even harder.

When you are in pain, your body releases endorphines. And I believe the same is true when we cause pain as well. Endorphines feel good.

But that is a rather cold way to think of things I think.

For me, I love my Love so much that I'm willing to suffer thru anything he would do to me. And we practice that a lot.

I can't really speak for the other side too much, but I think that there is just something about the fact that I'm willing to do so much for him, that he wants to see just how much I will endure. And when I meet or go beyond those expectations, that just gives him that butterflys in the tummy grand slam in the nineth lovey type feeling....but I'm just guessing there.

those are my thoughts anyway.

First you need to sort out if you truly do want to feel pain and cause it or do you really want sensation. Spanking doesn't have to be painful or perceived that way in my experience. It can be incredibly sensual.

OTOH, yes, pain does release those wonderful highs. At times, in my case, guilt, depression and other negative things are gone for a while after a good session.

For a new partner, I'd say you wanted to spice things up a bit with things you BOTH want to do. A BDSM checklist may be helpful.

Your wife may never be into spankings or BDSM (or she may eventually discover an interest,) but maybe you can find something to explore that would interest her while somewhat sating your need to try new things?

I can tell you I believe pushing a spouse where they do not want to go rarely works well in any category of life.

Fury

There is a wonderful book out there:

When Someone You Love Is Kinky by Dossie Easton & Catherine A. Liszt, available from Greenery Press

Another good one is Screw The Roses, Send Me the Thorns by Phillip Miller and Molly Devon from Mystic Rose Books

Both of these books are very well written in a style that is accessible and easy for the "less than hard core kinky" to understand. They may help you articulate your feelings about giving and recieving "pain" even within a loving relationship.

Personally, there is a totally disconnect between my "love" and my "sadism". Asking me "How can you want to inflict pain on someone you love?" makes about as much sense to me as "How can enjoy hamburger if you drive a Ford?"

Hellooooooooo, I'm a SADIST. I ENJOY inflicting pain on people. What's love got to do with it? Nothing at all. I enjoy eating a good juicy hamburger too. What's driving a Ford have to do with enjoying a hamburger? Nothing. They are two completely seperate areas of my personality.

See what I mean?

It may not ever be possible to explain to her in a way that she will understand. I'm WIRED this way. It simply is who and what I am, and no amount of "analyzing" may ever explain "why". But those books may give you some good discussion starting points.

Hope that helps!
- Geoff

Evil_Geoff said:

There is a wonderful book out there:

When Someone You Love Is Kinky by Dossie Easton & Catherine A. Liszt, available from Greenery Press

Another good one is Screw The Roses, Send Me the Thorns by Phillip Miller and Molly Devon from Mystic Rose Books

Both of these books are very well written in a style that is accessible and easy for the "less than hard core kinky" to understand. They may help you articulate your feelings about giving and recieving "pain" even within a loving relationship.

Personally, there is a totally disconnect between my "love" and my "sadism". Asking me "How can you want to inflict pain on someone you love?" makes about as much sense to me as "How can enjoy hamburger if you drive a Ford?"

Hellooooooooo, I'm a SADIST. I ENJOY inflicting pain on people. What's love got to do with it? Nothing at all. I enjoy eating a good juicy hamburger too. What's driving a Ford have to do with enjoying a hamburger? Nothing. They are two completely seperate areas of my personality.

See what I mean?

It may not ever be possible to explain to her in a way that she will understand. I'm WIRED this way. It simply is who and what I am, and no amount of "analyzing" may ever explain "why". But those books may give you some good discussion starting points.

Hope that helps!
- Geoff

Click to expand...

Fresh spinach salad Geoff. No greasy hamburgers for you... anymore. ;-D

On a side note: I love your post. It makes perfect sense to me.

Your wife is thinking in a mainstream mindset, which is understandable, and that has taught her you don't hurt those you love. What you have to find a way to convey in a way she can relate to is you enjoy giving pain, presumably to someone who enjoys receiving it, and so giving pain to the one you love can be just another way of expressing that love. It is what works for us. F is a huge sadist and can give pain with a smile on his dial to anyone who enjoys receiving it, but he has said giving pain to me in our relationship where love exists on a deep level has far surpassed the feelings he ever had in giving pain to casual play partners and other submissives he had relationships with.

For us it is a way of expressing our love for each other....sort of like buying roses or stroking your partner's hair in a vanilla relationship if those are things which speak love to them and bring them pleasure....you do it because you need to, and because your partner also enjoys it. He also says he cannot enjoy it if the person he gives it to does not want or enjoy it, and if he doesn't particularly like someone, once again it doesn't work well for him. I also have a sadistic streak in me which can enjoy giving pain, but for me it is on a different plane to how F feels it, though there are commonalities. I can imagine giving it in a love relationship, but like F, they would have to be into receiving pain for me to feel that joy.

Catalina

mabye shes just not a masochist. mabye she just doesnt like pain. and therefore cant understand why you would like to give it to her. it would always be easier for a sadist to have a partner who is willing and/or eager to take the pain (masochist). if your wife isnt, then just dont bring pain into the mix right now.

i am more into painplay then Sir is, and we still use it (no queation there) but we also use much more sensation-y things, or bondage, or being in the right mindset. there is a balance for everyone, it just may be difficult to find.

It appeals to me because my partner likes it. My husband doesn't really like pain, but he does like the feelings he gets from it and the closeness it brings. His reasons are inconsequential to me; as long as he wants it, I'll give it. It feels good to me to give him something that he wants, and there's also something delicious about doing something that's normally unacceptable/forbidden when it's not a consensual, mutual context.

I, OTOH, don't like more than a relatively light spanking, labia or nipple pinching. I have a low threshold/tolerance for pain, and don't get anything positive out of more than a bit. While I do try just about everything that I give others, it has to be scaled down to my tolerance. I love kink, but I'm not a masochist, and I don't think that will ever change.

Maybe your wife will get into kink, and maybe she won't. Maybe she's like me in that she likes little to no pain, and perhaps she wouldn't mind giving it if you really want it. I wouldn't start with anything painful with a new partner who didn't want it, I'd present all of the other possibilities, and see what they might be interested in.

My husband didn't want more than to be tied up and told what to do during sex until the first of the year, yet now we've discovered he's a masochist and we're moving toward TPE. If that didn't happen, however, I would have simply explored with others with his support. People can find things in themselves, but it can't be forced anymore than other aspects of sexuality or orientation (if you're straight, how would you like your wife to insist you try sex with other guys because she "just refuses to accept you're not bi," for instance? If you're not gay/straight/bi, you're just not, right?). So, find and foster the things you both enjoy, but don't bank on changes - let them be a nice surprise if they happen to occur.

I had the same problem with my ex, whom I loved very much.


"but why do you want to hurt me????"


I never had an easily swallowable answer for that. The truth was that I wanted to hurt her because that's what made my bone hard. I wanted to humiliate, crush and debase her. It's not easy to admit this shit.

I think we made some progress tonight.. we were really getting into it so I started biting her neck.. lightly at first, but then I kept doing it harder and harder trying to figure out where her limit was.. she moaned a bit but she never did tell me to stop..

later I asked her if it bothered her and she said she was just a little concerned that it might leave embarassing marks.. so apparently her tolerance for pain goes up in the heat of the moment because I know she wouldn't let me bite her like that any other time..

Another good one is Screw The Roses, Send Me the Thorns by Phillip Miller and Molly Devon

Click to expand...

I actually have this book ordered as a Valentine's Day present. Hopefully she'll read it.

thanks for all the replies everyone! I'm so glad I found this website!

Evil_Geoff said:

There is a wonderful book out there:

When Someone You Love Is Kinky by Dossie Easton & Catherine A. Liszt, available from Greenery Press

Another good one is Screw The Roses, Send Me the Thorns by Phillip Miller and Molly Devon from Mystic Rose Books

Both of these books are very well written in a style that is accessible and easy for the "less than hard core kinky" to understand. They may help you articulate your feelings about giving and recieving "pain" even within a loving relationship.

Personally, there is a totally disconnect between my "love" and my "sadism". Asking me "How can you want to inflict pain on someone you love?" makes about as much sense to me as "How can enjoy hamburger if you drive a Ford?"

Hellooooooooo, I'm a SADIST. I ENJOY inflicting pain on people. What's love got to do with it? Nothing at all. I enjoy eating a good juicy hamburger too. What's driving a Ford have to do with enjoying a hamburger? Nothing. They are two completely seperate areas of my personality.

See what I mean?

It may not ever be possible to explain to her in a way that she will understand. I'm WIRED this way. It simply is who and what I am, and no amount of "analyzing" may ever explain "why". But those books may give you some good discussion starting points.

Hope that helps!
- Geoff

Click to expand...

Yeah, but...

why is it that much better when you can inflict pain on someone you love?

I guess you could insert "fuck" in lieu of "inflict pain on" in this regard. It's not mandatory, but it definitely lends depth and dimension to it.

Maybe it's the degree to which I think I'm an empath but also a pussy. I can lose myself in the intensity which pain delivers to people who love it.

Byakuya said:

I think we made some progress tonight.. we were really getting into it so I started biting her neck.. lightly at first, but then I kept doing it harder and harder trying to figure out where her limit was.. she moaned a bit but she never did tell me to stop..

later I asked her if it bothered her and she said she was just a little concerned that it might leave embarassing marks.. so apparently her tolerance for pain goes up in the heat of the moment because I know she wouldn't let me bite her like that any other time..



I actually have this book ordered as a Valentine's Day present. Hopefully she'll read it.

thanks for all the replies everyone! I'm so glad I found this website!

Click to expand...

I've found that tolerance thing going waaaaay up during sensual moments works for me too but I already have a high pain tolerance or so I'm told.

Fury

FurryFury said:

I've found that tolerance thing going waaaaay up during sensual moments works for me too but I already have a high pain tolerance or so I'm told.

Fury

Click to expand...

This is an interesting physiological thing. I don't think I've ever met a person for whom it wasn't the case at all, myself included. It's only when the pain gets really obvious or really distracting OR when I find myself not liking where it's putting me psychologically that I even notice it if I'm in the middle of sex.

Pain which ramps up in a predictable pattern is especially good - anything startling may pull someone into a more self-conscious situation.

Netzach said:

Pain which ramps up in a predictable pattern is especially good - anything startling may pull someone into a more self-conscious situation.

Click to expand...

that's a very good point! I'm sure that if I bit down hard the first time instead of gradually biting her harder and harder, she would've been pissed off instead of aroused.

myinnerslut said:

"good girls" are bad girls who haven’t been caught

Click to expand...

I really like your sig by the way! it gives me hope!

yes in ded you are right!

Sorry, spamming not permitted here..if you wish to advertise, contact the site woners and I am sure they will offer you an opportunity to place an ad on the site.

Catalina

Byakuya said:

I really like your sig by the way! it gives me hope!

Click to expand...

thank you.

i have this saying on a shirt. someone once came up to me and and asked "so are you a good girl or a bad girl". since i didnt know this guy, am very much taken, think bad come-ons are funny rather then insulting or disguisting, and didnt want to give anything about myself away, i simply responded "depends how you define cuaght", and walked away.

but i digress...

Byakuya said:

that's a very good point! I'm sure that if I bit down hard the first time instead of gradually biting her harder and harder, she would've been pissed off instead of aroused.

Click to expand...

Bulleye, I have been hit before with no warmup from a guy I have come to respect. He only hit me maybe 15 times total with 2 floggers. The result was I couldn't lay on that side of my shoulder the next day it was still way to tender.

Byakuya said:

I know why it appeals to me, but I don't know how to put it into words. Any ideas?

Click to expand...

Tell her the simple truth. Which is:

rosco rathbone said:

The truth was that I wanted to hurt her because that's what made my bone hard.

Click to expand...

She will at least understand the concept, and the fact that what turns us on sexually is sometimes impossible to justify, rationalize, or explain.

But be sure to follow that up with another truth. Which is:

People who are turned on by delivering pain are not all the same. This is an *extremely* important point to make early on, because if she starts googling BDSM she's gonna find some wild shit popping up on her screen.

Then follow it up with another truth. Which is:

Nearly everyone is already incorporating at least a little bit of pain into their sex. A slap, tight grip, firm twist, hard thrust - people do this all the time, and it adds variety and sometimes intensity to the experience. All you're really suggesting is that you start from the very beginning, and experiment step by step to see what more you can do.

Netzach said:

This is an interesting physiological thing. I don't think I've ever met a person for whom it wasn't the case at all, myself included. It's only when the pain gets really obvious or really distracting OR when I find myself not liking where it's putting me psychologically that I even notice it if I'm in the middle of sex.

Pain which ramps up in a predictable pattern is especially good - anything startling may pull someone into a more self-conscious situation.

Click to expand...

I would have once said that pain with out a sensual context was not something I would ever savor. Over time that has changed a bit for me.

Fury

My short answer is that it turns us on!

And when you inflict pain on someone or have it inflicted on you, it's like an act of passion... perverse to some, but passionate to others, I guess. I like it on both ends, but I'm the submissive one most of the time, so I usually get the receiving end.

It's not an "I hate you so I'm going to punch you in the face" type pain, if that helps.

Unless I give this hours of thought, I don't think I can come up with a better answer. If she liked the biting, perhaps you can communicate to her that some people like similar feelings, but more intense. And you can always bite in places that other people won't see...

Netzach said:

Yeah, but...

why is it that much better when you can inflict pain on someone you love?

Click to expand...

It is *infinitely* better for me with someone I love because both my Dominant self and my sadistic self are getting off at the very same time.

My inner Dominant is the one responsible for the process of bringing her to the point where she'll accept the pain. My sadist is the one engaging in the act itself.

I use love, intimacy, & devotion to get her there. But for me, it's a mutual love and a genuine love. Real intimacy on both sides, which develops as part of both the process and the result.

That's what love has to do with it.

Netzach said:

I guess you could insert "fuck" in lieu of "inflict pain on" in this regard. It's not mandatory, but it definitely lends depth and dimension to it.

Click to expand...

This is a good analogy.

If a random attractive woman showed up at my door and said, "Hey, wanna have sex," theoretically I could fuck her and it would be enjoyable. But there would be no real sense of conquest or victory in such an encounter.

To *really* get my Dominant rocks off, I need to feel a certain victory in the process, conquest in the achievement, and sense of power in the control.

Playing without the process just isn't even close to the same thing.

JMohegan said:

... To *really* get my Dominant rocks off, I need to feel a certain victory in the process, conquest in the achievement, and sense of power in the control.

Playing without the process just isn't even close to the same thing.

Click to expand...

In other words, for you, if you go out and chase her down, seduce her and score, it's better than if she comes to you directly and says, "You're hot, do me."

For me, either way strokes my ego! But I'm a lazy bastard, I like it when the fish jump in my boat. Bump all that worm and hook and string and pole crap... *LOL*

JMohegan said:

It is *infinitely* better for me with someone I love because both my Dominant self and my sadistic self are getting off at the very same time.

My inner Dominant is the one responsible for the process of bringing her to the point where she'll accept the pain. My sadist is the one engaging in the act itself.

I use love, intimacy, & devotion to get her there. But for me, it's a mutual love and a genuine love. Real intimacy on both sides, which develops as part of both the process and the result.

That's what love has to do with it.

This is a good analogy.

If a random attractive woman showed up at my door and said, "Hey, wanna have sex," theoretically I could fuck her and it would be enjoyable. But there would be no real sense of conquest or victory in such an encounter.

To *really* get my Dominant rocks off, I need to feel a certain victory in the process, conquest in the achievement, and sense of power in the control.

Playing without the process just isn't even close to the same thing.

Click to expand...

Hm. I guess almost all of the people I enjoy best are already into pain. They don't get into pain per se to make me happy, perhaps they push towards the amount or the kind I like because they like me and for no other reason, and that is a lot of what makes it interesting.

But I don't find that enjoyment of pain purely as a submissive response does it for me. I prefer painsluts of a certain level to other people as sexual partners.

I *don't* get off when I'm doling out a spanking to someone who hates every minute and can't take as hard of one as I could myself, and fundamentally simply accepts it because it's what I want. I know that's anathema to the whole concept of mixing your Domination with your sadism, but really it doesn't do it for me to the degree that someone who loves every second does.

My idea of ideal is a random hot woman showing up at my door saying "please fuck me. You have no idea how bad I've wanted you." Thereby giving me the leverage to be hard to get.

words from a newbie to BDSM...

Byakuya said:

I think we made some progress tonight.. we were really getting into it so I started biting her neck.. lightly at first, but then I kept doing it harder and harder trying to figure out where her limit was.. she moaned a bit but she never did tell me to stop..
I actually have this book ordered as a Valentine's Day present. Hopefully she'll read it.

Click to expand...

OMG I am SOOOO There !!! I LOVE to be "chewed on" around the neck/collarbones/ shoulder area... I turn to a puddle of mush that will do just about anything... I could care less about marks/bruising, because when I have been asked in the past about them I simply reply:
"We had a hellova weekend!!", grin & walk away... (is your wife a scorpio??)
I had quite a struggle with the lifestyle as I lost a B/F of 3 years to a very good slave because I wouldn't cater to a TPE relationship... I eventually came to understand more & more & have joined a local group, go to "munches", chat on the board, get together at "play parties" to absorb & learn. I personally CANNOT handle any degree of spanking nor a flogger/whip/cane due to the physical abuse in my childhood. I do very much enjoy pinwheels at this point in time. I am claustrophic so rope bondage is done with EXTREME caution with me. I am very curious about knife play & wax play next
I did find the book "screw the roses, send the thorns" VERY helpful !!!
I am not "owned" by anyone, I am not a sub or a slave... I am a selective Bottom... Some may think I "top from the bottom" as I choose whom I play with & how we play. Right now my group of BDSM friends are more than happy to explain things to me, let me touch toys, watch others play & be curious. They let me explore at my own pace with only very SLIGHT prompts/hints, if they think I have stalled...
My advice would be maybe something else that isn't about the pain... maybe blindfolds, clamps, cuffs, sensation instead of pain...

But that is just my point of view