Why aren't male subs taken more seriously?

One thing I seem to have noticed from browsing various online sites is that male subs don't seem to be taken very seriously. A male sub could put up an ad looking for an online Mistress, and get no responses, even if he seems to be totally sincere, whereas a female looking for an online Dom gets tons of responses instantly.

I'm just wondering why this is? I've read that there's more male subs than female subs, yet from browsing personal ads, there seem to be far more female subs searching than there are male. Is it because male subs are looked at as just guys looking to get their rocks off, or do you think it might even have something to do with the traditional male role, how men are stereotypically supposed to be the "strong ones," the providers, etc, and a male who is submissive is subconsciously scorned for being less of a "man" somehow?

Even when you look at ads for fetish events, they often let single women in for free, but single men have to pay, or there's an increased rate, etc. I just am wondering why the difference? What makes a submissive nature more credible in one gender and not the other?

As a male new to the BDSM world and curious about submission, and genuinely interested in learning more about it and about myself and where I fit into things (am I a sub, or am I more of a bottom, etc), I have to say it's really disinheartening. I see how the guys who place ads looking for someone to talk to or help them explore things get zero responses, while the girls get a zillion replies, and it's rather depressing.

I was just wondering what everyones' take on this is.

Thanks.

Cause lifes not fair, and being a male sub isn't PC.

I think, and I'm not sure why, that one of the reasons I have a hard time taking a male sub seriously is that they're always portrayed in books and movies and other media as being wimps and sissies. Know what I mean? I can't think of an exact example.

I personally am not attracted to submissives. Well, on a physical level I might be But I want Dominant men in my life, so that's what I tend to look for. I take the submissive men on literotica very seriously. They're just like everyone else! That is, faceless posters posting away on a BBS I like to read

I wouldn't respond to a personal ad from one, because that's not what I'm looking for.

I don't believe it's just fetish events that charge more for men. Regular vanilla bars do the same. I think it might have to do with the fact that there are more women than men(?) and so we get to be more picky?

You're right. It's probably some of society's role of men and women, but I think that's nature's role as well... Not that there's anything wrong with going against nature, but I think fewer will switch roles like that. Not because they don't want to, but because it's just not built in them.

This should evolve into a great Thread nytemist. In the Interim for your own satisfaction you may wish to read from here there are many diverse opinions shared.

Best of Luck , I may contribute to your thread later just too obligated time wise just at the moment

(ie busy not apathetic)

As a somewhat submissive male myself, i find this also apparent. Not only on Lit.

I have not had as many relationships as many men would boast, but then again, i'm not featuring a picture of my penis on my avatar. But in real life it is the same thing, men who are submissive are mocked by other men, and from women (it happens to me daily). But this isn't just submissive in the context of romance, but in every day life.

I am a very submissive person, therefore the people around me tend to be dominant, i believe all things in life, inevitably, and sometimes even when they are unaware, sway to a balance. Thusly a dominant person surrounds themselves with people who are submissive, and vise versa, this is easy for both because it causes little conflict.

But i believe you are right, a man is looked at to be the headstone for the family, and able to take charge at all times. I am submissive, that does not mean i will not provide for my family, do the things mostly all men do, I just do it in different ways. And for that, I am at the expense of many jokes and mockery.

In my personal conclusion i believe this is not based on a stereotype for dominant men, but on a stereotype of SUBMISSIVE men and the worlds lack of knowledge about them and the relationships they have.

-nameless

You're looking for a female Domme? Join the very long line.

Bottom line is that we're a rarity. Now, to be fair *good* male subs are worth their weight in gold, but -- there's a lot of you guys and there are a few of us. I can afford to be extremely EXTREMELY picky. If I invested time in every guy who was probably worth the investment and would like me to, I would never have a moment to myself again.

You don't like having to pay more as a single male at events? Events would probably consist of nothing BUT single males without incentive for women to go.

You don't like taking flak for having a less popular sexual orientation? Join the club, eventually you realize that most people you want to talk to anyhow not only respect male subs, but find fault with people who don't. When someone's an asshole in a way they are doing you a favor.

You're not a pussy, right? So buck up and know you're not a pussy. People say stupid stuff all the day long. Put energy into the opinions of those you respect and those who respect you.

haa, I may be submissive but I don't get picked on because of it because I don't let myself get picked on.... And we're not taken seriously because witty male subs like that cool cat Aeroil are rare, I mean Aeroil is awesome.

Seriously, there's a ton of troll male subs, and most 'masculine' guys are insecure and male subs threaten to pierce their superhero visage, which adds up to us being frowned upon.

Netzach said:

Now, to be fair *good* male subs are worth their weight in gold

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You're making fun of me for being skinny aren't you? AREN'T YOU!

Netzach said:

You're looking for a female Domme? Join the very long line.

Bottom line is that we're a rarity. Now, to be fair *good* male subs are worth their weight in gold, but -- there's a lot of you guys and there are a few of us. I can afford to be extremely EXTREMELY picky. If I invested time in every guy who was probably worth the investment and would like me to, I would never have a moment to myself again.

You don't like having to pay more as a single male at events? Events would probably consist of nothing BUT single males without incentive for women to go.

You don't like taking flak for having a less popular sexual orientation? Join the club, eventually you realize that most people you want to talk to anyhow not only respect male subs, but find fault with people who don't. When someone's an asshole in a way they are doing you a favor.

You're not a pussy, right? So buck up and know you're not a pussy. People say stupid stuff all the day long. Put energy into the opinions of those you respect and those who respect you.

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Great post Netzach.

Catalina

Aeroil said:

haa, I may be submissive but I don't get picked on because of it because I don't let myself get picked on.... And we're not taken seriously because witty male subs like that cool cat Aeroil are rare, I mean Aeroil is awesome.

Seriously, there's a ton of troll male subs, and most 'masculine' guys are insecure and male subs threaten to pierce their superhero visage, which addsup to us being frowned upon.


You're making fun of me for being skinny aren't you? AREN'T YOU!

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LOL, so true, you are special. We don't have a problem responding to male subs and continuing the connection if we find they are serious. Unfortunately we have come across our fair share of wolves in sheep's clothing (basically looking for free sex) and many who talk big but when it comes to the crunch are really not willing to do much at all. Then there is the one I was talking to who made every conversation a challenge which got too much for me so I took a break...he seems to still be waiting, so perhaps we can get back into it without the crap. I must say though, in our experience, overall we find male subs more often genuine than game playing, and willing to extend themselves with enthusiasm while the female subs are more often quite the opposite and come with a huge list of wants and demanding attention on their terms and of the worshipping kind, certainly not them servicing or submitting.

I do think there are huge misconceptions out there about submissives, especially males, and yes, most heterosexual men are not as open as F is to including male subs in play and our life...he is another rarity. For us though, we do not continue with subs wanting online only contact simply because it doesn't meet our needs, we want one on one contact. Hope you have more luck in the future nytemist.

Catalina

Netzach said:

You're looking for a female Domme? Join the very long line.

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Well, that's the thing. I feel like my entire gender is being judged by the actions of a few. "You're looking for a Domme? Yeah, you and everyone else. Step aside." When the fact is that not every male is alike, including every submissive male, just as every female is not alike. Personally, I'd like to think that I'm not like anyone else on the planet, bdsm or not, because aren't we all different as humans? Should we all be stereotyped by our gender or sexual leanings?

I realize your post was positive and encouraging instead of the opposite, don't get me wrong. But speaking for myself, I don't even know that I'm looking for a female Domme yet, because I'm so new to everything that I'm trying to figure out exactly what it is I'm looking for. Yes, I'm a straight male, and yes, I'm very interested in becoming submissive to a female, but beyond that, I don't know yet. I can't say "I'm looking for this or that," because I'm trying to learn more in order to figure out exactly what it is that I'm looking for. I won't know until I start learning more, but it's the negative stereotype toward male subs that I sense everywhere that makes me feel like it's almost hopeless. Honestly it's pretty intimidating for a "newbie."

What should a guy do to prove he's not like "everyone else?" What does a male sub have to do in order to be taken seriously in the bdsm scene? It's just weird feeling like you're starting out with automatic strikes against you. That's just the perception I get the more I look into things, and I guess I'm just trying to figure out why that is. It's just awkward knowing that if I were to place an ad saying "New male sub looking for dominant female to talk to and learn from," that I'd get no responses, but if I made one saying "Dom male seeks fem sub," that I'd probably get a half dozen within the hour.

It just seems to me that an alternative lifestyle should automatically be less gender-biased, yet there seems to be as much prejudice in the bdsm scene as anywhere else, and I'm genuinely curious as to why that is.

I'd like to preface this with: I take the submissive men here seriously- I have never gotten the impression that I should not take them seriously on a serious topic. The posters here I have read are intelligent, literate and cool people. And wonderfully funny too on non-serious topics.


It is long standing social dogma that men have to be the providers, must always be strong. That to be weak or feel emotion makes them less of a man and therefore worthy of contempt. I use the word ‘dogma’ because it is a near religious belief that men must be strong and women week. Not everyone holds to those opinions but so many do, even within the BDSM world.

Is it right? No.
One’s submission is not defined by one’s gender.
Nor is one’s dominance defined by one’s gender.
Its personality, that flare of self, the soul of the person if you will that defines ones submission or dominance.

I believe submissive men are taken less seriously on the net for a myriad number of reasons. A big one being, at least on other sites, that there are soo many whiny, needy, “dominant me please” beggar boys out there that it drives others nuts. Its irritating to be pestered by a anyone who refuses to type like an adult or read a simple profile. Yes there are women who use the same methods to gain the attention of a dominant but, far as I’ve seen, far more men resort to those tactics. Its those needy tactics that get submissive men in general labeled as ‘sissies’ and ‘wusses.’

If a large number of men act a certain way, even if they’re just a small sampling of the whole, if they’re getting more press or time in the public eye, they’ll create a stereotype. So has the wussy, not to be taken seriously submissive male stereotype been created.


I'm tired, so reserve the right to re-write this if its nonsensable.

I think nytemist you will find part of the answer to your question lies in men are more likely to respond to an ad from a female sub than a female Domme to one by a male sub because a lot of those male Doms are looking for easy sex under the guise of BDSM while female Dommes are as Netzach says, more picky and less occupied by getting a free fuck...it is partly due to the nature of the beast so to speak. Of course it also is about ratios and supply and demand. Personally, we have responded to many subs looking to gain experience and explore their tastes in a safe environment. Those who have made it through to the play stage have been happy to have the opportunity and with the outcomes.

Catalina

Good posts Catalina and Vixandra. I can totally understand both your points.

Its actually much easier for me to get to know gay/bi male Doms than it is for me to get to know Dommes very well...
This could be a combination of the fact that I never really initiate any flirting or chatting with anybody, the fact that I'm more shy around girls than boys, and quite possibly, a chance that there may be fewer Dommes about than gay/bi Doms....

hmm hmm, I must think on this, 4 AM and no sleep makes Aeroil.... something-leepy...

Inexperience doesn't necessarily give you a pass on not knowing what you want. How do *you* view submission? Do you make time to study the Lifestyle? Read? Ask questions on boards with knowledgeable people? Are there areas of your Life you can improve, to make you stand out/be of greater service/whatever?

There are a lot of things one needs a partner to discover about onself, but I honestly believe that if one is serious, a lot of learning/discovery/growth can occur without a partner; in the end, someone who has invested in themselves is far more desireable than someone who hasn't.

I'm not quite sure I get what you are talking about. Personally I 'know' the male subs that hang around here. I take them seriously or not depending on their way to write/answer/behave around other poster.

I don't know about real life, outside of BDSM kind of discrimination. Generally I believe dominant persons (as a characteristic, not as an orientation inside of BDSM) no matter the gender are regarded more highly as they tend to be in charge of things (like work). I understand that being submissive (again not the orientation inside of BDSM) is possibly not the best characteristic to move up, to have a carreer. On the other hand I believe that it's possible for everybody to find a place for themselves in the world. No one has to be regarded highly by everyone around them, and no one is.

Regarding the personal ads, don't believe that dominant men are taken more seriously. I know that with some of the PMs I get from allegedly dominant men, I can't take them seriously in the least.
On the whole I believe women possibly get more messages, answers to ads than men do. I don't know why, but I do know that many of the dominant men around here complain from time to time about not getting any answers, or submissive women not answering their messages etc. Sounds pretty much like what you describe that is happening for you with dominant women.
Most people that are serious in pursuing BDSM in their life in some form don't mind receiving messages by newbies asking questions. At least most here don't mind sharing their knowlegde. If someone just says something like 'I don't know anything, teach me', probably no one will bother with an answer. I'm not saying you did this, I just wanted to give a general example.

nytemist said:

It just seems to me that an alternative lifestyle should automatically be less gender-biased, yet there seems to be as much prejudice in the bdsm scene as anywhere else, and I'm genuinely curious as to why that is.

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I don't see what you described as having occured to you inside the lifestyle as gender-bias. It seems to me that numbers are against you.
Possibly there's another thing. And I'm just assuming here. But from what I read around here and around other places, from the personal ads I look at, it seems to me that in general dominant men are more likely to look for or at least don't mind a newbie submissive to train her than dominant women are. Possibly it has something to do with what Netzach said, that there are so many male submissives that it's possible to find one that matches them without bothering to help someone find out who they are. And to take all that work and trouble when you don't have to, for a person you've never seen in your whole life is asking a bit much.

If you look for making anything happening in real life, of finding out what you want, it might also help you to attend local meetings (munches or play-parties) and there learn from a wide variety of people.

nytemist said:

What should a guy do to prove he's not like "everyone else?" What does a male sub have to do in order to be taken seriously in the bdsm scene?

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From being involved in both R/L and on-line BDSM communities for many years, going through the same thing EVERY new unattached male sub goes throught, my answer is to keep hanging around, be involved, be willing to take your time, show that you are SAFE to be around, that you have something to offer, and find your groove. At some point we all have gotten past that "poor poor me" look at play parties and started to fun to be around. Be real, connect with people as people first. Stay involved.

IMHO the "market place" of people looking to connect it has alwase been a bunch of males trying to connect with fewer women. The clubs charge men because they are willing to pay, they comp women so there is something to draw the men. It is pure business. Consider a het party that has one room with 20 naked men and one with 3 naked women, which room will draw the customers?

15% of the men in the world have done very real damage to women. Those jerks look and talk like the rest of us. "Once bitten by a snake, always afraid of a garden hose"

The other 85% of us must make up for the sins of others. It sucks, but that's the way it is. And part of the price we all pay to become players - no one just looked at internet BDSM pron, read one book, purchased some leather stuff and just walked in to "god damn we were looking for you" we all, all 6 genders, have had to pass the "I want in test".

Stay with it, it is worth it. It is.

LOL, don't under estimate the rewards in accepting to help a newer male sub to explore their fantasies. It can be a learning curve for all involved as well as nice to be able to give them the opportunity and share in watching their growth. For me, I also find I like to help them recognise signs to avoid some of the more risky pitfalls they might encounter in going out into the big wide world and meeting some who might be less than safe. They also can be a lot less picky in what they want to try and less jaded when new and full of curiosity and excitement about the journey they are stepping out on.

Catalina

Life isn't fair.

Simple truth.

It boils down to social conditioning, social Darwinism and the phenomenon isn't limited to male subs, as others have posted. Males have the tougher row to hoe in some regards. As one comedian said, "to get a date, men have to be James Bond. Women have to do their hair." I'm not saying it's easy for women, either. You've got this sea of assholes, all vying for your attention. Imagine feeling like a Porterhouse Steak being dangled in front of a bunck of starving pit bulls. You may really be looking for a cute Shetland Sheepdog, but such a critter won't go near the feeding frenzy of the bigger stronger nastier dogs. And finally, you're just fed up with it, and anyone you don't know personally gets shut down fast and hard.

Which brings me back to the hard time males have. We've got to be persistent to get around all that drama, yet if we're persistent, how do we avoid being another starving pit bull (asshole)? Certain things help, like being literate, and not assuming any kind of familiarity (sexual or otherwise), but that still puts you at one guppy in the sea. Here on Lit, check out the Asshat Awards thread for some good samples of what some folks deal with. On Bondage.com, about once every other week, someone's bitching about males, at one end or the other of the spectrum. They even have a cute term for it over there: Horny Net Geek, or HNG for short.

So you've got a lot of competition for an extremely limited commodity, and a lot of that competition casts you in an unfavorable light before you've even begun. In short, you're shafted before you start, and you've gotta dig yourself out of a hole everyone else has dug.

Them's the facts, and they're not likely to change. Bitching never got anything done. Sure, it sucks, but it is what it is.

CutieMouse said:

Inexperience doesn't necessarily give you a pass on not knowing what you want. How do *you* view submission? Do you make time to study the Lifestyle? Read? Ask questions on boards with knowledgeable people? Are there areas of your Life you can improve, to make you stand out/be of greater service/whatever?

There are a lot of things one needs a partner to discover about onself, but I honestly believe that if one is serious, a lot of learning/discovery/growth can occur without a partner; in the end, someone who has invested in themselves is far more desireable than someone who hasn't.

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I completely agree, and I've been reading as much as I can and trying to do exactly as you suggest. What I meant by that is just that without having actually experienced things beyond reading about them, it'd be hard for me to say with 100% certainty what works for me and what doesn't. Something that I read about that might sound really exciting, I may turn out not to like much, and something that I wouldn't have thought would be of interest might turn out to be something I find I'm really into. That's all I meant by that. I just wouldn't want to act right from the start like I knew everything that I was into, only to find otherwise, and end up having wasted someone's time by being like "Yeah, I know I said that, but I guess I'm not that into that after all, sorry" or something.

chris9 said:

On the whole I believe women possibly get more messages, answers to ads than men do. I don't know why, but I do know that many of the dominant men around here complain from time to time about not getting any answers, or submissive women not answering their messages etc. Sounds pretty much like what you describe that is happening for you with dominant women.

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I just want to clear up that I wasn't talking from personal experience...I haven't placed an ad, and I haven't personally been thought less of by any dominant women, at least that I know of! And I've found everyone here, dom or sub alike, really helpful when it comes to sincere newbie questions.

I was just speaking from what I seem to see when I browse the ads. It seems like no guys get any responses, and I've read a couple ads from guys who sounded extremely sincere and not just like "net pervs" or something, and still no replies. While sub women seem to get a ton of responses, and dom men looking for sub women seem to. So it just seemed to me like there was a total bias against sub men, and other websites I browsed, including a couple with advice for sub men on how to meet a Domme, seemed to echo the same sentiment, that as a sub male, the cards are definitely stacked against you.

So all I was wondering is why that is, why submission can't just be viewed as gender-neutral, why one gender seems to be taken more seriously in their submission than the other. I really do think it may have a lot to do with the traditional gender roles of men being traditionally "dominant" and women being tradtionally "submissive." That submission in a woman is almost looked at as natural, while it isn't in a man.

But by the same token, one would think in that case, if going by traditional gender roles, that dominance in a woman would be viewed as abnormal too, yet that's not the case, so it's an interesting area. Perhaps it's because submission in general is subconsiously thought of as "weaker" than dominance, and especially in a man?

I only mentioned the personals ads because that's where I really noticed the difference. I haven't placed one myself, because after seeing the lack of response that pretty much every other sub or sub-curious male got, there didn't seem to be much of a point in it. I'd probably have just ended up feeling really self-conscious. And then the more I looked into things, the more it seemed like sub males had a much bigger challenge in terms of being taken seriously in the scene. So really I just wanted to know why that was.

If they ain't gonna respect you, make a circus out of yourself!

Interesting Posts

Novice & curious somewhat submissive & find the previous posts interesting & educational, Thanks for the enlightment for this newbie curious mwm, Ill keep reading & se what happens!

male subs generally lack 'drawing power' because saying,
"I want to be looked after by you, and to fuck you" just doesn't have the same import and impact when said by a man, as opposed to a woman.

nytemist said:

I completely agree, and I've been reading as much as I can and trying to do exactly as you suggest. What I meant by that is just that without having actually experienced things beyond reading about them, it'd be hard for me to say with 100% certainty what works for me and what doesn't. Something that I read about that might sound really exciting, I may turn out not to like much, and something that I wouldn't have thought would be of interest might turn out to be something I find I'm really into. That's all I meant by that. I just wouldn't want to act right from the start like I knew everything that I was into, only to find otherwise, and end up having wasted someone's time by being like "Yeah, I know I said that, but I guess I'm not that into that after all, sorry" or something.

Click to expand...

This is where communication comes into the picture when you do finally get with someone and start the negotiating. Being inexperienced isn't a bad thing as far as actually doing all the things there are to do in kink. I mean, my goodness, even after 4 years of being owned I'm still learning new things that I didn't know I'd enjoy when Master and I started all this. It's all part of the journey. Don't sweat it so much. Just be yourself.

nytemist said:

One thing I seem to have noticed from browsing various online sites is that male subs don't seem to be taken very seriously. A male sub could put up an ad looking for an online Mistress, and get no responses, even if he seems to be totally sincere, whereas a female looking for an online Dom gets tons of responses instantly.

I'm just wondering why this is? I've read that there's more male subs than female subs, yet from browsing personal ads, there seem to be far more female subs searching than there are male. Is it because male subs are looked at as just guys looking to get their rocks off, or do you think it might even have something to do with the traditional male role, how men are stereotypically supposed to be the "strong ones," the providers, etc, and a male who is submissive is subconsciously scorned for being less of a "man" somehow?

Even when you look at ads for fetish events, they often let single women in for free, but single men have to pay, or there's an increased rate, etc. I just am wondering why the difference? What makes a submissive nature more credible in one gender and not the other?

As a male new to the BDSM world and curious about submission, and genuinely interested in learning more about it and about myself and where I fit into things (am I a sub, or am I more of a bottom, etc), I have to say it's really disinheartening. I see how the guys who place ads looking for someone to talk to or help them explore things get zero responses, while the girls get a zillion replies, and it's rather depressing.

I was just wondering what everyones' take on this is.

Thanks.

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I cannot speak about online, because I do not care about online. However I can assure you that Female Dominants take male submissives very seriously indeed. The perceptions of others are not all that accurate. I have yet to meet a submissive male who was a wimp and/or a sissy. Reality and fantasy ( in reqards to male submission) hardly ever meets. Especially here.

It used to bother me, but now, I am having way too much fun with the men who submit to me to care what others may think.

Eb [Reality is way better than fantasy.]