A case study in power, control and abuse

Marquis

Jack Dawkins
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Jul 9, 2002
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When studying Criminal Law, first year legal students read cases of historical importance to illustrate the legal defenses to criminal actions. A staple of the Crim Law curriculum is State v. Norman, a controversial case that deals with the nuances of the “self defense” justification. I’ll offer a very brief synopsis here, but I really recommend reading the case facts for yourself.

Mrs. Norman was abused by her husband for many, many years. The case goes into exquisite detail on the kind of abuse he dished out. One day, Mrs. Norman shot her husband in the back of the head three times while he was sleeping. Mrs. Norman’s lawyers insisted this action was justified based on self defense. I’ll skip the exact details of what legally constitutes “imperfect/perfect self defense” because I think you probably have a good instinctual understanding of what it means to act in self defense.

At the trial level, the defense of “self defense” (or rather the appropriate jury instruction) was barred. Norman appealed this decision and the appellate court allowed the self defense defense. Finally, the Supreme Court of North Carolina once again barred the defense.

The facts of the case below are taken from the Court of Appeals, 89 N.C. App. 384, 366 S.E. 2d 586 (1988).

I’ve omitted the legal analysis, but if you want to see how the court eventually reasoned the case, you can read the Supreme Court decision here .

I’m posting this for several reasons:

1. In a very dark way, I find some of the details of this case to be humorous and even a little erotic.
2. I am fascinated with the impulses and personalities that draw people to, or keep them in, relationships with high power differentials. I think there are some undeniable patterns that emerge, and I’d like to discuss those.
3. I think the question of whether Mrs. Norman’s actions were legally and/or morally justifiable is an interesting one.

So without further ado, the case. My comments in brackets [like this].

At trial the State presented the testimony of a deputy sheriff of the Rutherford County Sheriff's Department who testified that on 12 June 1985, at approximately 7:30 p.m., he was dispatched to the Norman residence. There, in one of the bedrooms, he found decedent, John Thomas "J.T." Norman (herein decedent or Norman) dead, lying on his left side on a bed. The State presented an autopsy report, stipulated to by both parties, concluding that Norman had died from two gunshot wounds to the head. The deputy sheriff also testified that later that evening, after being advised of her rights, defendant told the officer that decedent, her husband, had been beating her all day, that she went to her mother's house nearby and got a .25 automatic pistol, that she returned to her house and loaded the gun, and that she shot her husband. The officer noted at the time that there were burns and bruises on defendant's body.

Defendant's evidence, presented through several different witnesses, disclosed a long history of verbal and physical abuse leveled by decedent against defendant. Defendant and Norman had been married twenty-five years at the time of Norman's death. Norman was an alcoholic. He had begun to drink and to beat defendant five years after they were married. The couple had five children, four of whom are still living. When defendant was pregnant with her youngest child, Norman beat her and kicked her down a flight of steps, causing the baby to be born prematurely the next day.

Norman, himself, had worked one day a few months prior to his death; but aside from that one day, witnesses could not remember his ever working. Over the years and up to the time of his death, Norman forced defendant to prostitute herself every day in order to support him. If she begged him not to make her go, he slapped her. Norman required defendant to make a minimum of one hundred dollars per day; if she failed to make this minimum, he would beat her.

Norman commonly called defendant "Dogs," "Bitches," and "Whores," and referred to her as a dog. Norman beat defendant "most every day," especially when he was drunk and when other people were around, to "show off." [who can resist the allure of public displays of dominance?] He would beat defendant with whatever was handy -- his fist, a fly swatter [I actually own an oversized fly swatter that I sometimes beat my sub with], a baseball bat [got one of these two, except it’s much smaller than a normal bat], his shoe, or a bottle; he put out cigarettes on defendant's skin [we’ve all seen this thread before]; he threw food and drink in her face and refused to let her eat for days at a time; and he threw glasses, ashtrays, and beer bottles at her and once smashed a glass in her face. Defendant exhibited to the jury scars on her face from these incidents. Norman would often make defendant bark like a dog, and if she refused, he would beat her. He often forced defendant to sleep on the concrete floor of their home and on several occasions forced her to eat dog or cat food out of the dog or cat bowl.

Norman often stated both to defendant and to others that he would kill defendant. He also threatened to cut her heart out.

Witnesses for the defense also testified to the events in the thirty-six hours prior to Norman's death. On or about the morning of 10 June 1985, Norman forced defendant to go to a truck stop or rest stop on Interstate 85 in order to prostitute to make some money. Defendant's daughter and defendant's daughter's boyfriend accompanied defendant. Some time later that day, Norman went to the truck stop, apparently drunk, and began hitting defendant in the face with his fist and slamming the car door into her. He also threw hot coffee on defendant. On the way home, Norman's car was stopped by police, and he was arrested for driving under the influence.

When Norman was released from jail the next morning, on 11 June 1985, he was extremely angry and beat defendant. Defendant's mother said defendant acted nervous and scared. Defendant testified that during the entire day, when she was near him, her husband slapped her, and when she was away from him, he threw glasses, ashtrays, and beer bottles at her. Norman asked defendant to make him a sandwich; when defendant brought it to him, he threw it on the floor and told her to make him another. Defendant made him a second sandwich and brought it to him; Norman again threw it on the floor, telling her to put something on her hands because he did not want her to touch the bread. Defendant made a third sandwich using a paper towel to handle the bread. Norman took the third sandwich and smeared it in defendant's face.

On the evening of 11 June 1985, at about 8:00 or 8:30 p.m., a domestic quarrel was reported at the Norman residence. The officer responding to the call testified that defendant was bruised and crying and that she stated her husband had been beating her all day and she could not take it any longer. The officer advised defendant to take out a warrant on her husband, but defendant responded that if she did so, he would kill her. A short time later, the officer was again dispatched to the Norman residence. There he learned that defendant had taken an overdose of "nerve pills," and that Norman was interfering with emergency personnel who were trying to treat defendant. Norman was drunk and was making statements such as, "'If you want to die, you deserve to die. I'll give you more pills,'" and "'Let the bitch die . . . . She ain't nothing but a dog. She don't deserve to live.'" Norman also threatened to kill defendant, defendant's mother, and defendant's grandmother. The law enforcement officer reached for his flashlight or blackjack and chased Norman into the house. Defendant was taken to Rutherford Hospital.

The therapist on call at the hospital that night stated that defendant was angry and depressed and that she felt her situation was hopeless. On the advice of the therapist, defendant did not return home that night, but spent the night at her grandmother's house.
The next day, 12 June 1985, the day of Norman's death, Norman was angrier and more violent with defendant than usual. According to witnesses, Norman beat defendant all day long. Sometime during the day, Lemuel Splawn, Norman's best friend, called Norman and asked Norman to drive with him to Spartanburg, where Splawn worked, to pick up Splawn's paycheck. Norman arrived at Splawn's house some time later. Defendant was driving. During the ride to Spartanburg, Norman slapped defendant for following a truck too closely and poured a beer on her head. Norman kicked defendant in the side of the head while she was driving and told her he would "'cut her breast off and shove it up her rear end.'"
Later that day, one of the Normans' daughters, Loretta, reported to defendant's mother that her father was beating her mother again. Defendant's mother called the sheriff's department, but no help arrived at that time. Witnesses stated that back at the Norman residence, Norman threatened to cut defendant's throat, threatened to kill her, and threatened to cut off her breast. Norman also smashed a doughnut on defendant's face and put out a cigarette on her chest.

In the late afternoon, Norman wanted to take a nap. He lay down on the larger of the two beds in the bedroom. Defendant started to lie down on the smaller bed, but Norman said, "'No bitch . . . Dogs don't sleep on beds, they sleep in [sic] the floor.'" Soon after, one of the Normans' daughters, Phyllis, came into the room and asked if defendant could look after her baby. Norman assented. When the baby began to cry, defendant took the child to her mother's house, fearful that the baby would disturb Norman. At her mother's house, defendant found a gun. She took it back to her home and shot Norman.

Defendant testified that things at home were so bad she could no longer stand it. She explained that she could not leave Norman because he would kill her. She stated that she had left him before on several occasions and that each time he found her, took her home, and beat her. She said that she was afraid to take out a warrant on her husband because he had said that if she ever had him locked up, he would kill her when he got out. She stated she did not have him committed because he told her he would see the authorities coming for him and before they got to him he would cut defendant's throat. Defendant also testified that when he threatened to kill her, she believed he would kill her if he had the chance.

The defense presented the testimony of two expert witnesses in the field of forensic psychology, Dr. William Tyson and Dr. Robert Rollins. Based on an examination of defendant and an investigation of the matter, Dr. Tyson concluded that defendant "fits and exceeds the profile, of an abused or battered spouse." Dr. Tyson explained that in defendant's case the situation had progressed beyond mere "'Wife battering or family violence'" and had become "torture, degradation and reduction to an animal level of existence, where all behavior was marked purely by survival . . . ." Dr. Tyson stated that defendant could not leave her husband because she had gotten to the point where she had no belief whatsoever in herself and believed in the total invulnerability of her husband. He stated, "Mrs. Norman didn't leave because she believed, fully believed that escape was totally impossible. . . . She fully believed that [Norman] was invulnerable to the law and to all social agencies that were available; that nobody could withstand his power. As a result, there was no such thing as escape." Dr. Tyson stated that the incidences of Norman forcing defendant to perform prostitution and to eat pet food from pet dishes were parts of the dehumanization process. Dr. Tyson analogized the process to practices in prisoner-of-war camps in the Second World War and the Korean War.

When asked if it appeared to defendant reasonably necessary to kill her husband, Dr. Tyson responded, "I think Judy Norman felt that she had no choice, both in the protection of herself and her family, but to engage, exhibit deadly force against Mr. Norman, and that in so doing, she was sacrificing herself, both for herself and for her family."

Dr. Rollins was defendant's attending physician at Dorothea Dix Hospital where she was sent for a psychiatric evaluation after her arrest. Based on an examination of defendant, laboratory studies, psychological tests, interviews, and background investigation, Dr. Rollins testified that defendant suffered from "abused spouse syndrome." Dr. Rollins defined the syndrome in the following way:
The "abused spouse syndrome" refers to situations where one spouse has achieved almost complete control and submission of the other by both psychological and physical domination [TPE, anyone?]. It's, to start with, it's usually seen in the females who do not have a strong sense of their own adequacy who do not have a lot of personal or occupational resources; it's usually associated with physical abuse over a long period of time, and the particular characteristics that interest us are that the abused spouse comes to believe that the other person is in complete control; that they themselves are worthless and they cannot get away; that there's no rescue from the other person.

When asked, in his opinion, whether it appeared reasonably necessary that defendant take the life of J. T. Norman, Dr. Rollins responded, "In my opinion, that course of action did appear necessary to Mrs. Norman." However, Dr. Rollins stated that he found no evidence of any psychotic disorder and that defendant was capable of proceeding to trial.
 
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graceanne said:
Why didn't she plead temporary insanity?

Good question.

Without going into the details of what constitues an insanity, or "diminished capacity" defense, I'm going to guess that her lawyers felt she had a better shot with self defense. Could've been because of the evidence presented, or perhaps because self defense offers a more complete defense.
 
In the UK you can plead 'diminished responsibility' which means a total inability to comprehend the wider situation and/or future ramifications of an action. It's not an insanity but is used quite a lot in cases where a battered spouse has hit back in an apparently premeditated way.

Does the US have an equivalent?
 
An interesting excerpt from the same case:

Psychologists and sociologists report that battered spouse syndrome usually has three phases -- the tension-building phase, the violent phase, and the quiet or loving phase. See L. Walker, The Battered Woman Syndrome, at 95-104 (1984).

Doesn't this sound a lot like the warm-up, climax and aftercare phases most of us go through when we scene?
 
Marquis said:
Good question.

Without going into the details of what constitues an insanity, or "diminished capacity" defense, I'm going to guess that her lawyers felt she had a better shot with self defense. Could've been because of the evidence presented, or perhaps because self defense offers a more complete defense.

If I were her, I'd have gotten the gun, then gone in and told him I was leaving him. When he came for me I'd have shot him then. Then it would have been self defense.
 
Marquis said:
An interesting excerpt from the same case:

Psychologists and sociologists report that battered spouse syndrome usually has three phases -- the tension-building phase, the violent phase, and the quiet or loving phase. See L. Walker, The Battered Woman Syndrome, at 95-104 (1984).

Doesn't this sound a lot like the warm-up, climax and aftercare phases most of us go through when we scene?

No, because apart from the consent issue, these stages of a domestic violence behaviour pattern usually take place over weeks or months, most usually weeks. The 3rd phase which is popularly referred to as the honeymoon phase is what causes confusion in most abused partners because it plays into their emotions and how they want to believe the partner is deep down, holding onto the dream and fantasy of love. It often encourages them to feel guilty for what has happened and for any complaints they may have because here he is being so nice to them, buying flowers, helping around the house, buying gifts for them being extra loving and thoughtful...in the mind it doesn't make sense and so often it is easier to believe this is the real person, not the abuser they have been living with.

Then it goes into making excuses for the abuser like he works too hard, he was abused as a child, he is mentally ill, he has an addiction, he feels jealous and/or insecure, she shouldn't have been late with his dinner, she should try harder to not upset him, and the list goes on. People often make the mistake of putting the abuser down to their partner which often makes it so much worse as then they feel it their duty to defend them, often lying and covering up the truth, feeling embarrassed for what others see, thus they are not then in a place where it is easy to help them or get them to help themselves.

Catalina :rose:
 
Marquis said:
2. I am fascinated with the impulses and personalities that draw people to, or keep them in, relationships with high power differentials. I think there are some undeniable patterns that emerge, and I’d like to discuss those.
Marquis said:
An interesting excerpt from the same case:

Psychologists and sociologists report that battered spouse syndrome usually has three phases -- the tension-building phase, the violent phase, and the quiet or loving phase. See L. Walker, The Battered Woman Syndrome, at 95-104 (1984).

Doesn't this sound a lot like the warm-up, climax and aftercare phases most of us go through when we scene?
On the surface, the wording of the "phases" might be interpreted to apply to some of my experiences, but the substance definitely does not.

This case describes levels of violence and degradation that do not arouse me, even in fantasy. In addition, the complete absence of affection and respect for the spouse renders this type of control utterly foreign to the dominance I practice.

Nevertheless, cases like this one used to spark cosmic battles between my superego and my inner sadist. Because the bare fact is that I physically hurt women, make them cry and scream, and enjoy myself immensely in doing so. My superego has wielded this fact like a sword, and for a long time the consequences for me were disasterous.

Further complicating the matter is the undeniable fact that many women who are clearly in abusive situations stick around. And this forced me to face the possibility that my partners (who have all had submissive streaks much longer than their masochistic ones) were sticking around for what might be the wrong reasons too.

'Cosmic battle' really does describe the crap that used to go on in my head, and I was not a happy human being.

One day, I read a quote from a famous boyscout leader, who said: "Boys want to know three things. Who is in charge, what are the rules, and will they be enforced." And this gave me the idea for how to resolve the turmoil in my mind.

I began to think of my Dominant self as separate from my superego and my sadist, and I put my Dominant self in charge of the other two. He makes the rules and enforces them, holding both the superego and sadist in check and thereby bringing balance and peace to my inner world. His control has not always been perfect, but over the years he learned how to do a damn good job.

What is interesting to me about your case, Marquis, is that many of the rules that my inner Dom has applied for decades are explicitly referenced by the facts in your summary. To wit -

1) Alcohol and pain play are an unacceptable combination.

2) Same thing with anger or intense frustration.

3) My partner is free to leave the room, the building, or indeed the relationship at any time.

4) Exaggerated threats are not fair play.

5) No public displays of dominance.

6) The safeword is inviolable.

These rules exist for the purpose of maintaining my own personal equanimity. I understand that they are not applied by all who practice legitimate and consensual BDSM, nor should they be. I'm just acknowledging that, yes, even an extreme case like this one used to tweak my conscience.... but there is a way to deal with this confusion that works for me.
 
the whole crux of a matter like this, to me, is consent

with consent, this could be an erotic arrangement.

without it, it's heinous abuse and if i were on the jury i'd do everything i can to make sure she walks.
 
I see that in many of the threads you begin a reoccurring theme that stems from a deep-rooted philosophical belief and approach toward domination. This belief that is held, is also influenced by your sadistic nature. The subject matter may change, but essentially the underlying message is basically the same.

The questions you raise concerning this case are no different than the same ones you raise in the pimp thread. The similarities and associations you suggest come from a view of a specific type of dominance. Sure this abuser may have been dominant, but he was a dominant asshole and deserved to be shot. There is no gray area here, none at all.

The type of dominance that is rooted purely from brute force or a contest of strength is no difference that two fighters in a ring trying as hard as they can to beat the other guy down. This is not the same type of dominance a Dom or Domme uses inside a consenting D/s relationship. You can’t even say the submission, which is obtained by this type of brute force dominance, is consenting D/s type of submission. If their choice is taken away from them by fear of being beaten, then that type of submission does not come from consent.

Consent that is derived by duress is not truly consent. If you were thrown in jail with bubba, and bubba took a liking to you and said he was gonna fuck your ass…you might put up a fight but bubba beats you down and “enjoys” doing it. Then he fucks you in the ass Marquis. Next day same thing happens and the next after that. Shall we then say what is transpiring between you and bubba similar to what goes on between a Domme/Dom and their submissive? Because that is what you are purposing by association. After about a month you learn that it doesn’t matter if you fight back or not you still get fucked in the ass, so you learn and tell bubba to just get it over with. Shall we conclude then that to avoid a beating you are now giving your consent?

Dude you got to take a serious look at this root belief and make some kind of sense or peace with it. Seriously, let it go, it’s holding you back. Otherwise you are going to keep running into the same philosophical brick wall over and over again.

The quote made in this post here sums it up nicely.
https://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=7303702&postcount=25
 
JMohegan said:
On the surface, the wording of the "phases" might be interpreted to apply to some of my experiences, but the substance definitely does not.

This case describes levels of violence and degradation that do not arouse me, even in fantasy. In addition, the complete absence of affection and respect for the spouse renders this type of control utterly foreign to the dominance I practice.

Nevertheless, cases like this one used to spark cosmic battles between my superego and my inner sadist. Because the bare fact is that I physically hurt women, make them cry and scream, and enjoy myself immensely in doing so. My superego has wielded this fact like a sword, and for a long time the consequences for me were disasterous.

Further complicating the matter is the undeniable fact that many women who are clearly in abusive situations stick around. And this forced me to face the possibility that my partners (who have all had submissive streaks much longer than their masochistic ones) were sticking around for what might be the wrong reasons too.

'Cosmic battle' really does describe the crap that used to go on in my head, and I was not a happy human being.

One day, I read a quote from a famous boyscout leader, who said: "Boys want to know three things. Who is in charge, what are the rules, and will they be enforced." And this gave me the idea for how to resolve the turmoil in my mind.

I began to think of my Dominant self as separate from my superego and my sadist, and I put my Dominant self in charge of the other two. He makes the rules and enforces them, holding both the superego and sadist in check and thereby bringing balance and peace to my inner world. His control has not always been perfect, but over the years he learned how to do a damn good job.

What is interesting to me about your case, Marquis, is that many of the rules that my inner Dom has applied for decades are explicitly referenced by the facts in your summary. To wit -

1) Alcohol and pain play are an unacceptable combination.

2) Same thing with anger or intense frustration.

3) My partner is free to leave the room, the building, or indeed the relationship at any time.

4) Exaggerated threats are not fair play.

5) No public displays of dominance.

6) The safeword is inviolable.

These rules exist for the purpose of maintaining my own personal equanimity. I understand that they are not applied by all who practice legitimate and consensual BDSM, nor should they be. I'm just acknowledging that, yes, even an extreme case like this one used to tweak my conscience.... but there is a way to deal with this confusion that works for me.

Well put JM!
 
I'm going to respond to everyone individually, but before I do so, there's a point that needs to be made.

I could've predicted this, and probably should've included something about this in the original post, but what you all are focusing on is the differences between this situation and a healthy D/s relationship. These differences are not exactly subtle. This relationship breaks every letter of the SSC code that all ethical Dominants, including myself, adhere to.

What I find most interesting, however, are the similarities between this relationship and the realities of D/s that many of us live out. Unlike the differences, the similarities are far more subtle, and far more worthy of provocative intellectual discussion.

It seems that no matter how many times or in how many ways I explain this perspective, I am constantly required to defend myself. I don't mind, I kind of ask for it I suppose. I can't expect everyone who isn't familiar with me to give me the benefit of the doubt, but I am sometimes surprised that people who have read my thoughts on gender equality, SSC, self-esteem and mental health don't cut me more slack.

I'm reminded of a great movie I saw for the first time a few months ago, The Believer. This film is based on the true story of a Jewish white supremacist who kills himself when a New York reporter reveals his background. In the movie, they have flashbacks where they show the brilliant protagonist as a child in Hebrew school. While every other student is merely writing down whatever the instructor says, he is asking many questions and demanding coherent answers for some of the religion's greatest mysteries. The teacher isn't able to provide those answers, and the young boy becomes so devastated that he grows a strong hatred for his own people.

They say that hate and love are but a hair's breadth apart, for passion fuels them both.

There are times where I'm tempted to take a Machiavellian approach to Domination. There are times when I do. Not with those that I care about, but with my more casual encounters. Fear of Karmic retribution and the law keeps me more in line than any argument I've ever heard against the "might makes right" doctrine.

Somewhere out there, there is a line. A line that when crossed takes you away from what we call "healthy" or "consensual" D/s and "abuse". I don't think those labels are entirely accurate, but to further the discussion I will accept this polarization as a rebuttable presumption. Even so, the line that seperates these two opposites is neither thick, nor straight, nor static.

So where is it, exactly?

One way to play it safe is to stay waaaay on our side of the line, leaving plenty of room for error. But I'm not satisfied with that. I'm not satisfied with accepting the canned moral code thrust upon me by others. I want to understand, and there's no way I can do that without asking the questions that nag me inside.

Here's a thread that I posted four years ago, one of my first.

A lot has changed since then. 4 years is a long time for a young man like me. I have new questions now, that are harder to answer. But still, I ask.


With my formal appeal out of the way, I want to also add that if maybe we weren't such tight asses all the time, you know, that would be cool too. If you can laugh at South Park, you should be able to crack a joke about State v. Norman.
 
graceanne said:
If I were her, I'd have gotten the gun, then gone in and told him I was leaving him. When he came for me I'd have shot him then. Then it would have been self defense.

This seems like an easy enough plan to execute, it makes me wonder why she didn't think of this. I suppose his influence over her was so great that he would've been too intimidating to shoot in any other state than asleep.

That's actually the primary logic of the "Battered Woman's Syndrome" defense; that a woman placed in continuous harm shouldn't have to wait until she is at the brunt of the danger before retaliating. Bad word choice ( ;) ), defending herself.
 
Everyone's edge or line is different and it seems to be that some are certain that their line is the only one.
I for one like to teeter on the edge, occasionally letting my foot land on the other side, so I do understand how similar both can be.
 
catalina_francisco said:
No, because apart from the consent issue, these stages of a domestic violence behaviour pattern usually take place over weeks or months, most usually weeks.

Scenes can take weeks and abusive phases can take days. I don't think the time element is a crucial difference here.

catalina_francisco said:
The 3rd phase which is popularly referred to as the honeymoon phase is what causes confusion in most abused partners because it plays into their emotions and how they want to believe the partner is deep down, holding onto the dream and fantasy of love. It often encourages them to feel guilty for what has happened and for any complaints they may have because here he is being so nice to them, buying flowers, helping around the house, buying gifts for them being extra loving and thoughtful...in the mind it doesn't make sense and so often it is easier to believe this is the real person, not the abuser they have been living with.

So let's say Francisco bites off your nipple as you've indicated elsewhere that you fear he may do. I assume he employs aftercare, and I assume some serious aftercare would be needed after such an incident. What makes you think his loving side is more genuine than his sadistic side?

In all actuality, I would venture to guess that both of these sides are genuine Francisco.

catalina_francisco said:
Then it goes into making excuses for the abuser like he works too hard, he was abused as a child, he is mentally ill, he has an addiction, he feels jealous and/or insecure, she shouldn't have been late with his dinner, she should try harder to not upset him, and the list goes on. People often make the mistake of putting the abuser down to their partner which often makes it so much worse as then they feel it their duty to defend them, often lying and covering up the truth, feeling embarrassed for what others see, thus they are not then in a place where it is easy to help them or get them to help themselves.

A few months ago, a friend of my submissive found a picture on my myspace profile of her kneeling before me, bound. Here's the picture, in case you're curious. He was extremely upset about it, and even threatened to tell her parents. She explained to him calmy that this was something we enjoyed together, and he backed off.

Conversely, I've had to set straight friends who've implied that my woman was somehow lesser because she chose to be so submissive to me. I think defending our lovers is something very familiar to most practitioners of BDSM.
 
Kajira Callista said:
Everyone's edge or line is different and it seems to be that some are certain that their line is the only one.
I for one like to teeter on the edge, occasionally letting my foot land on the other side, so I do understand how similar both can be.

Let the record state, on Thursday, August 10th, 2006, at 9:15pm EST, Marquis said to Kajira Callista:

I FUCKING LOVE YOU!!! :heart: :heart: :heart:
 
Marquis said:
<snip>
Somewhere out there, there is a line. A line that when crossed takes you away from what we call "healthy" or "consensual" D/s and "abuse". I don't think those labels are entirely accurate, but to further the discussion I will accept this polarization as a rebuttable presumption. Even so, the line that seperates these two opposites is neither thick, nor straight, nor static.

<snip>
I'll address this part first.

For several of us here, the line is unimaginably thick, perfectly straight and absolutely static. Informed, uncoerced preconsent is the lynchpin. The alpha, and the omega. Whatever similarities can be seen in other behaviors, doesn't make them right, explainable, or excusable without informed, uncoerced preconsent.

I may be showing my nerdy background and my age, but it's a light side/dark side of The Force kind of thing. One is good and right, responsible behavior, the other is a twisted, mocking reflection that only deserves notice in order to stamp it out wherever it's found. So yes, I see the similarities, in a dark, twisted, funhouse mirror sort of way. I just don't believe they need to be dragged out and trotted around. Mainstream acceptance is tough enough, without crap like this popping up.

And, please, don't bring up the Jamelske case next, to try and get the same point across; that was practically in my own backyard, and it's exactly the kind of thing "the public" thinks of when they think of "S&M". SSC and RACK, as prominent as they are within the community, online and realtime, are practically unknown in the 'nilla world.

Just mentioning things that might be behind the reaction you consistently get with these threads.
 
JMohegan said:
This case describes levels of violence and degradation that do not arouse me, even in fantasy.

We certainly differ here. There are plenty Lit stories worse than this, so I know I'm not alone.

JMohegan said:
In addition, the complete absence of affection and respect for the spouse renders this type of control utterly foreign to the dominance I practice.

I'm not sure there was a total lack of affection in this relationship, somehow I even doubt it. It wasn't included in the case brief, but that certainly doesn't mean it didn't exist.

I think you hit on a crucial difference with the issue of respect however. I think mutual respect is a key aspect of healthy D/s and neither of these people had respect for each other or themselves.

JMohegan said:
Nevertheless, cases like this one used to spark cosmic battles between my superego and my inner sadist. Because the bare fact is that I physically hurt women, make them cry and scream, and enjoy myself immensely in doing so. My superego has wielded this fact like a sword, and for a long time the consequences for me were disasterous.

Further complicating the matter is the undeniable fact that many women who are clearly in abusive situations stick around. And this forced me to face the possibility that my partners (who have all had submissive streaks much longer than their masochistic ones) were sticking around for what might be the wrong reasons too.

'Cosmic battle' really does describe the crap that used to go on in my head, and I was not a happy human being.

It's a tough fight, but we gotta keep at it. On the one hand is boredom and the other is disaster.

JMohegan said:
What is interesting to me about your case, Marquis, is that many of the rules that my inner Dom has applied for decades are explicitly referenced by the facts in your summary. To wit -

1) Alcohol and pain play are an unacceptable combination.

2) Same thing with anger or intense frustration.

3) My partner is free to leave the room, the building, or indeed the relationship at any time.

4) Exaggerated threats are not fair play.

5) No public displays of dominance.

6) The safeword is inviolable.

These rules exist for the purpose of maintaining my own personal equanimity. I understand that they are not applied by all who practice legitimate and consensual BDSM, nor should they be. I'm just acknowledging that, yes, even an extreme case like this one used to tweak my conscience.... but there is a way to deal with this confusion that works for me.

I like that you drew direct correlations here. I also find it interesting that an albeit controversial, but respected submissive on this site has at one point or another held that not one of those six rules are in place in her relationship.

And she wouldn't have it any other way.
 
Hester said:
the whole crux of a matter like this, to me, is consent

with consent, this could be an erotic arrangement.

without it, it's heinous abuse and if i were on the jury i'd do everything i can to make sure she walks.

SpectreT said:
I'll address this part first.

For several of us here, the line is unimaginably thick, perfectly straight and absolutely static. Informed, uncoerced preconsent is the lynchpin. The alpha, and the omega. Whatever similarities can be seen in other behaviors, doesn't make them right, explainable, or excusable without informed, uncoerced preconsent.

Same point, so I'll address them together.

I'm afraid that consent is hardly that clear of an issue. Let me play the devil's advocate for a moment (seems to be my job anyway). There are so many great cases I could post to prove this point, but I'll keep it simple.

An intoxicated person does not have the capacity to give legal consent to sex, right? Right. But if you get drunk with your girlfriend and fuck her, can she hit you with rape charges the next day? She can try, but as long as you didn't have any reason to believe she had withdrawn consent, you're in the clear. This is a crude and dirty example, but I'm more than happy to get into this shit if you're not satisfied.

In this situation, Mrs. Norman had the opportunity to bring in legal action and refused it. Whatever her reason may have been, she had the right to refuse it and she did. I'm not suggesting she consented to the abuse, but she consented, repeatedly, to remain in a situation where she could expect to be abused.

How is that so different from people who consent to play without a safeword? At some point they may very much want whatever's going on to stop, but if they've taken no affirmative action to secure their right to make it stop, do they forfeit that right?

The answer depends upon the circumstances.

SpectreT said:
I may be showing my nerdy background and my age, but it's a light side/dark side of The Force kind of thing. One is good and right, responsible behavior, the other is a twisted, mocking reflection that only deserves notice in order to stamp it out wherever it's found. So yes, I see the similarities, in a dark, twisted, funhouse mirror sort of way. I just don't believe they need to be dragged out and trotted around.

Only showing one side of a story is the surest way to create curiousity about the other. It certainly seems to have worked for me. :)

Besides, I always thought the Sith were cooler than the Jedi, but I guess that's not helping my case.

SpectreT said:
Mainstream acceptance is tough enough, without crap like this popping up.

This is 100% pussy. I don't even know where to begin on how to correct the faults in this sentence, so I'm going to leave it alone, having some faith in the obvious.

SpectreT said:
And, please, don't bring up the Jamelske case next, to try and get the same point across; that was practically in my own backyard, and it's exactly the kind of thing "the public" thinks of when they think of "S&M". SSC and RACK, as prominent as they are within the community, online and realtime, are practically unknown in the 'nilla world.

Hey, you started it!

For a number of reasons I find the Jamelske case far, far more sinister than this one. Even so, I would watch one of their taped sessions if I had access to the video. Hey, you might call me sick, but I'd bet a gazillion dollars if someone posted a link to the videos, I wouldn't be the only taker.

Oh well, the public will catch up eventually, and I don't think us taking a vow of ignorance is going to help.
 
Any relationship that ends up with bullet holes in someone's head ceases to be sexy.
 
RJMasters said:
I see that in many of the threads you begin a reoccurring theme that stems from a deep-rooted philosophical belief and approach toward domination. This belief that is held, is also influenced by your sadistic nature. The subject matter may change, but essentially the underlying message is basically the same.

The questions you raise concerning this case are no different than the same ones you raise in the pimp thread.

You're right, they're very similar. In fact, everything you've said up to this point is very astute. This thread was actually inspired by the reemergence of the pimp thread. The underlying question I'm driving it is much the same, I wasn't ignorant of that fact, or trying to be clandestine about it.

RJMasters said:
The similarities and associations you suggest come from a view of a specific type of dominance. Sure this abuser may have been dominant, but he was a dominant asshole and deserved to be shot. There is no gray area here, none at all.

I can't agree with you there. I think there is plenty of gray area and the legal community agrees with me.

RJMasters said:
The type of dominance that is rooted purely from brute force or a contest of strength is no difference that two fighters in a ring trying as hard as they can to beat the other guy down. This is not the same type of dominance a Dom or Domme uses inside a consenting D/s relationship. You can’t even say the submission, which is obtained by this type of brute force dominance, is consenting D/s type of submission. If their choice is taken away from them by fear of being beaten, then that type of submission does not come from consent.

Consent that is derived by duress is not truly consent. If you were thrown in jail with bubba, and bubba took a liking to you and said he was gonna fuck your ass…you might put up a fight but bubba beats you down and “enjoys” doing it. Then he fucks you in the ass Marquis. LOL, I sense you taking a special pleasure in writing this line. Next day same thing happens and the next after that. Shall we then say what is transpiring between you and bubba similar to what goes on between a Domme/Dom and their submissive? Because that is what you are purposing by association. After about a month you learn that it doesn’t matter if you fight back or not you still get fucked in the ass, so you learn and tell bubba to just get it over with. Shall we conclude then that to avoid a beating you are now giving your consent?

I think you don't give old man Norman enough credit. The creative and unique ways he degraded his wife were clearly a form of psychological domination. Fuck, it says that right in the case! From an expert!

As for me taking it in the ass from Bubba, I'd have to say the situations are pretty different. Mrs. Norman had a lot more options than an inmate. Oh, but she was scared right?

Don't the reasonableness of her fears and some personal courage have to come into account? A few examples:

1. I send you an email saying that if you don't rob a bank and wire me all the money, I'm going to kill you and your whole family. Don't tell the cops or the dog gets it too! You rob said bank, and get caught. Do you get off? Not a chance.

2. Back to the prison rape example. Let's say Bubba isn't actually a hulking behemoth, but a fiesty little character, more diminutive than a ballerina, but full of piss and vinegar. I, on the other hand, am a total wuss. He climbs up on a stool and tells me to suck his dick. Instead of socking him one, I'm so scared that I feel I have no choice but to do it. Then I suck his dick RJ. Am I giving consent then?

I don't know, but it certainly doesnt seem like the brute force dominance you tried to portray. Think of how these essentially congruent examples relate to the case at hand.

RJMasters said:
Dude you got to take a serious look at this root belief and make some kind of sense or peace with it.

What the fuck do you think I'm doing?

RJMasters said:
Seriously, let it go, it’s holding you back. Otherwise you are going to keep running into the same philosophical brick wall over and over again.

I hardly think it's a brick wall. In fact, I think it is what propels me forward. :)
 
I, for one, don't think the public will ever catch up, not uniformly and across the board. Red state/Blue state, sort of thing, maybe?

I do take your point about legal and prosecutable definitions of "consent". I was speaking in a less courtroom definition, and "informed and uncoerced preconsent" is about as precise a language as I can think of to use to discuss the situation I'm describing.

The line between abuse and acceptable BDSM behavior, in my mind, comes strictly from the submissive partner in the relationship knowing exactly what they're getting into, and then agreeing to get into it, with adequate physical, mental, and emotional safeguards in place for the situation agreed to.

Related comment: I honestly cannot conceive, outside of pure fantasy, of enough trust to forego a safeword entirely in a relationship. I know people do it; I just can't wrap my brain around it, is all. Blame it on my early school years; I learned quick not to trust anyone, at all, until they've proven worthy of that trust. (Takes well over a decade to get there.)

As an aside, for many years, it was legally impossible for a woman to press rape charges against her husband; the condition of them being married meant she no longer had a right to say "no" to her husband. I'm pretty sure it's still impossible to get a conviction and next to impossible to even get such a case into court here in the US. (Correct me if I'm wrong - I am by no means a legal expert.)
 
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I was a cop for 17 years, and one of the many reasons for burnout many cops (myself included) is exactly the kind of situation we find in State vs Norman. The abused _staying_ with the abuser. When time and time again intervention is offered, pushed, practically thrown at the victim.

And they do NOTHING.

Which is why many states have passed Criminal Domestic Violence laws that take the decision to press charges out of the victim's hands. Many states have _mandatory_ arrest statutes. Without going into legalese if there is visible evidence of fresh violence (ie redness, bruising, scratches, cuts, etc), somebody's behind is going to jail. Period. The officers do NOT have any discretion in the matter.

Damn skippy.

And there have been times where I've arrested both parties because they were both beat to hell and gone, and it was he said, she said about who started it. Screw it, let the judge sort it out, they get the big bucks.

What's kinda funny, if you think about it, is that not once, in 17 years, not ever, did anyone put forth "we were playing rough" or "she likes it like that" in their own defense or the defense of their partner. I heard a LOT of "she deserved it..." or "He didn't _really_ mean to hurt me..." excuses, but consent was not raised the first time.

Oh... back to State vs Norman... The jury should have voted "Not Guilty" simply because the bastard needed killin'. Jury nullification is a wonderful way for people with common sense to tell the criminal justice system to stop wasting tax-payer dollars. Where's the "Yer Honor, he just needed killin'!" defense when you need it?

YIK,
- Geoff
 
SpectreT said:
I, for one, don't think the public will ever catch up, not uniformly and across the board. Red state/Blue state, sort of thing, maybe?

I don't think it'll be quick, and I agree that it will occur in stages.... but "ever" is a real long time.

SpectreT said:
I do take your point about legal and prosecutable definitions of "consent". I was speaking in a less courtroom definition, and "informed and uncoerced preconsent" is about as precise a language as I can think of to use to discuss the situation I'm describing.

The line between abuse and acceptable BDSM behavior, in my mind, comes strictly from the submissive partner in the relationship knowing exactly what they're getting into, and then agreeing to get into it, with adequate physical, mental, and emotional safeguards in place for the situation agreed to.

I think it's almost impossible for a sub to know exactly what they're getting into unless the scene has been laid out and rehearsed to the letter. Not exactly exciting, IMHO.

There are just too many variables. I'm reminded of a situation where a sub agreed to be videotaped during a session as long as she was wearing a mask. She later freaked out when she realized the videotape contained audio, and she was easily recognizable by her voice. Is audio implied when you tell someone you'd like to videotape the session? I don't know, but there's no way to spell out EVERY possibility.

I'm not trying to offer any answers, just trying to prove that consent is a nebulous concept by its very nature.

SpectreT said:
Related comment: I honestly cannot conceive, outside of pure fantasy, of enough trust to forego a safeword entirely in a relationship. I know people do it; I just can't wrap my brain around it, is all. Blame it on my early school years; I learned quick not to trust anyone, at all, until they've proven worthy of that trust. (Takes well over a decade to get there.)

I never, ever play without a safeword (and the confidence that the bottom will actually USE the safeword) outside of my relationship. The risk is far too great. We do have a safeword in my relationship, but I've admitted in the past that I regard it as optional.

SpectreT said:
As an aside, for many years, it was legally impossible for a woman to press rape charges against her husband; the condition of them being married meant she no longer had a right to say "no" to her husband. I'm pretty sure it's still impossible to get a conviction and next to impossible to even get such a case into court here in the US. (Correct me if I'm wrong - I am by no means a legal expert.)

The common law definition of rape has an exculpatory clause for husbands of the victim, but this has since been corrected by statute in every state of the union. It's not hard to convict on spousal rape because of the law, it's hard to convict because of the evidence.
 
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