Safety, Blood, and Risk of The Unknown

At the risk of flogging the proverbial dead horse that has been raised in topics both past and recent, do those who play with others or casually put much thought into safety in terms of transmission of disease, especially those that can be fatal? We do play with others at times and I admit I do raise the ugly topic, probably due to having an insatiable curiosity as well as professional background which meant I had researched and thought about the possibilities beyond what many seem to, thus those facts and suspicions lurk in the dark corridors of the psyche. My thoughts are that as long as you play you may be open to risk, especially of the unknown, but we are aware of and accept that risk with as many safety measures as are possible without being cloaked head to toe in some inpenetrable quarantine suit. It seems from talking to a few people of late, this is not something many even want to acknowledge as a possibility, not to mention think about or take whatever steps available to create some protection.

Why this question once again surfaced higher than normal for me was the announcement on the BBC news following more warnings of a possible bird flu pandemic for humans, that similar to the early days of the discovery of HIV/AIDS, there is yet again another fatal disease, Mad Cow Disease, which has been transmitted through blood transfusions. This is the print article for those who are interested. I was advised to get a transfusion shortly before meeting Amo but opted for a slower and harder path on the advice I requested from a doctor in the hospital who said the only way he would seriously suggest transfusion to anyone was if there was absolutely no other choice available to them....based on the previous HIV history and the knowledge it could and will likely happen again with other diseases, and until there are adequate tests and research, not to mention awareness a disease exists, there are no safety guarantees for blood transfusions and there will be victims.

So while there has been no mention at this point of sexual transmission with this new threat, there also is no test to know if someone has it, a long incubation period (10 years) similar to the early days of HIV, a possibility some will be carriers while others will contract the disease, no clear knowledge on all methods of how transmission occurs, and transmission clearly through blood and blood products so even with play that does not include sex but maybe blood or tissue left on toys or surroundings, what are the measures some others take? Does it concern you enough to take precautions? Does anyone think about risks of further unknown at this point diseases they may come into contact with through play? Are there forms of play you are not willing to participate in with others based on health risks of disease transmission alone? LOL, I'm not paranoid but it does fascinate me as do most things biological.

Catalina

I've switched to organic beef, for what that's worth. I continue to clean my toys with alcohol/bleach. I use gloves, dams, condoms obsessively.

Because I am on meds that suppress my immune system lots of kinds of play are out that I used to enjoy with safety precautions with others, now I will ONLY do them with my partner if at all. No more temp peircing, enemas, assplay, GS with ingestion is out because I have meds in my pee. It's kind of a bummer, as I really enjoy the hell out of temp peircing and enema play, actually.

It's not really an issue with me and K. I'm fixed, and he's been checked since we got together. And since he's the only person I've ever slept with (and I dont' just mean technically - I mean really) the only way I could get anything is from him. Or blood transfusions, but that's a risk I have to take. I'd die without them.

But I do know that if I was single, or we were poly, or whatever that I'd be extreemly anal (excuse the pun) about protection, for the same reason Netzach is. I take a ton of auto immune suppressants, and I get sick if you look at me funny. (STOP LOOKING AT ME AEROIL!)

Nice to know I am not the only one who thinks an ounce of prevention is better than all that tension or worse afterward. One of the most puzzling things I have found is why people who believe in condoms for fellatio do not think it important to use dams or a cut condom for cunnilingus. It is like a fantasy that it is worth taking precautions against if one way, but if cunnilingus is involved it is just an impediment that is unnecessary and silly to consider. I am just so not getting this at all!!

Catalina

catalina_francisco said:

Nice to know I am not the only one who thinks an ounce of prevention is better than all that tension or worse afterward. One of the most puzzling things I have found is why people who believe in condoms for fellatio do not think it important to use dams or a cut condom for cunnilingus. It is like a fantasy that it is worth taking precautions against if one way, but if cunnilingus is involved it is just an impediment that is unnecessary and silly to consider. I am just so not getting this at all!!

Catalina

Click to expand...

Well, I can kinda understand it, because female to female transmission of HIV is so much lower in incidence than it is among males to females and males to males. It's basically a stats-based approach to risk taking...

Netzach said:

Well, I can kinda understand it, because female to female transmission of HIV is so much lower in incidence than it is among males to females and males to males. It's basically a stats-based approach to risk taking...

Click to expand...

That is true, but then there are also other STD's such as herpes which are raging and transmittable through that means. Granted it is not deadly but it would be unpleasant, and does make someone then more open to cantracting other STD's such as HIV. Overall though, as you say, it becomes a matter of weighing up stats and probability and what risks you are prepared to take and live with....I just continue to be astounded there are so many who are not even remotely aware of risk factors.

Catalina

I thought it was important to mention that condoms do not guarantee safety. Condoms, even when used correctly can not protect against HPV (genital warts) and Hepatitis B.
HPV is the only known virus to cause a cancer, that would be cervical cancer. "Women who first become sexually active at an early age (before age 16) are at higher than average risk of developing cervical cancer. In addition, women who have had multiple sexual partners (...side note, my doctor says multiple sex partners means more than 3) are also at higher risk for cervical cancer. This is because these women are at higher risk of contracting the human papillomavirus (HPV), which cannot be prevented by using condoms or other birth control methods. Certain strains of HPV increase cervical cancer risk" cut and pasted from http://imaginis.com/womenshealth/news/news2.26.01.asp
The good news is that there is a vaccine for HPV in the experimental stages. It's important to remember that about 500,000 women worldwide (15,000 in USA) will learn they have cervical cancer and 250,000 worldwide (4,100 in USA) will die from cervical cancer every year. It's tied with colorectal cancer for the second most common type of cancer in women. So, the risks are very, very real, and there are little to no "warning signs". (stats taken from http://www.cancer.gov/clinicaltrials/results/cervical-cancer-vaccine1102 )

Also, please note there is a vaccine for Hepatitis B that is readily and widely available.

Be healthy! Get your pap test every year and a Hepatitis B vaccine

Because of my job I keep my Hep B vaccine up-to-date.

I get cold sores so at those times I don't give oral

It frustrating, they usually occur at the same time as my period if I am stressed and last for weeks.

I have tried so many things to stop them or get rid of them including prescription meds but nothing is that effective.

Like Net I wash my toys with alcohol, I see it as part of the process of play.

I have used condoms in the past but we don't use them now.

We have taken it on trust that we are both in good health sexually.

I know its a trust issue and there are risks involved with this decision, but we did discuss it at length and make the decision together.

Good health is a bonus, we all have issues to a greater or lesser degree at times but realising there are risks and being able to choose to take precuations at those times when the risks increase is one way to ensure good health.

shy slave said:

Because of my job I keep my Hep B vaccine up-to-date.

I get cold sores so at those times I don't give oral

It frustrating, they usually occur at the same time as my period if I am stressed and last for weeks.

I have tried so many things to stop them or get rid of them including prescription meds but nothing is that effective.

Click to expand...

I also get cold sores (and canker sores) if you look at me funny. Then one year I had a cold sore and something like 7 canker sores. I went to my grandma's and she was serving Green Tea. The Green Tea numbed my sores, and the next day all but one was gone. And the day after that the cold sore was nearly better.

I've experimented more with it since then. My cold sores and canker sores happen less often when I'm drinking green tea. Next time I get a cold sore I'm gonna soak a tea bag in water, and hold it on the cold sore and see what happens.

Cold Sore...sorry to hi-jack the thread

Try Tea Tree Oil. I used the last time and the sore was gone in seven days!

You bring up Mad Cow disease (BSE) and I did some looking into it several times over the years. I was particularly interested because it can be passed through food, in addition to blood and other body fluids. It turns out that there are several similar diseases, Kuru in humans is analogous to BSE in cows, and several others. What I found interesting was that the infectious agent is not a bacteria, or a virus, but a protein called a prion:
from: http://www-micro.msb.le.ac.uk/3035/prions.html
"It seems that a protein alone is the infectious agent. The infectious agent has been called a prion. A prion has been defined as "small proteinaceous infectious particles which resist inactivation by procedures that modify nucleic acids". The discovery that proteins alone can transmit an infectious disease has come as a considerable surprise to the scientific community."

"Ingested prions may be absorbed across the gut wall at Peyers patches. These are a part of the MALT, or mucosal associated lymphoid tissue. It is thought that the MALT presents microorganisms to the immune system in a contained and ideal fashion, facilitating a protective immune response. Prions could be taken up in the same way. Lymphoid cells then phagocytose the particle and travel to other lymphoid sites such as nodes, the spleen and tonsils. The prion can replicate at these sites. Many of these sites are innervated and eventually the prion gains access to a nerve and then propagates back up the axon to the spinal cord and eventually the brain. "

Another issue is that normal sterilization methods do not "kill" prions:
from: http://www.rense.com/general3/cjjdent.htm
"(Note - We have been warning of this for the last couple years. It is IMPOSSIBLE to kill prions with all routine, standard dental/medical sterilization procedures. Period. Every invasive dental intrument used on the teeth and gums CAN carry prions into the mouth and bloodstream of the patient. The same is true of scalpals and all invasive, reusable medical devices which undergo 'sterilization.' It is high time scientists like these begin to speak out on this issue. How many people have already been infected through contaminated reusable instruments? Remember, CJD/Mad Cow can have a 10 year incubabtion period. Most never know they are infected as there is no simple CJD test available.) "

I believe we're going to have a BIG problem in 10 years.

The issue I see is that humans who eat infected beef and then donate blood will pass it on to others, who then continue the transmission. And also through medical procedures. It's somewhat worse that STDs since there's no way of testing food and no way to take precautions.

Brings new meaning to we are what we eat.

I'm also trying to eat only organic beef.

Catalina your title with the phrase "Risk of the Unknown" is highly applicable since new viruses are found all the time. Several here have mentioned hepatitis B, there is a form that has only been around for a decade or two hepatitis C. Here's a quote:
from: http://www.epidemic.org/
"It is suspected that there are, at present, more than 5 million people in the United States that are infected with Hepatitis C, and perhaps as many as 200 million around the world. This makes it one of the greatest public health threats faced in this century, and perhaps one of the greatest threats to be faced in the next century. Without rapid intervention to contain the spread of the disease, the death rate from hepatitis C will surpass that from AIDS by the turn of the century and will only get worse. "

catalina_francisco said:

At the risk of flogging the proverbial dead horse that has been raised in topics both past and recent, do those who play with others or casually put much thought into safety in terms of transmission of disease, especially those that can be fatal? We do play with others at times and I admit I do raise the ugly topic, probably due to having an insatiable curiosity as well as professional background which meant I had researched and thought about the possibilities beyond what many seem to, thus those facts and suspicions lurk in the dark corridors of the psyche. My thoughts are that as long as you play you may be open to risk, especially of the unknown, but we are aware of and accept that risk with as many safety measures as are possible without being cloaked head to toe in some inpenetrable quarantine suit. It seems from talking to a few people of late, this is not something many even want to acknowledge as a possibility, not to mention think about or take whatever steps available to create some protection.

Why this question once again surfaced higher than normal for me was the announcement on the BBC news following more warnings of a possible bird flu pandemic for humans, that similar to the early days of the discovery of HIV/AIDS, there is yet again another fatal disease, Mad Cow Disease, which has been transmitted through blood transfusions. This is the print article for those who are interested. I was advised to get a transfusion shortly before meeting Amo but opted for a slower and harder path on the advice I requested from a doctor in the hospital who said the only way he would seriously suggest transfusion to anyone was if there was absolutely no other choice available to them....based on the previous HIV history and the knowledge it could and will likely happen again with other diseases, and until there are adequate tests and research, not to mention awareness a disease exists, there are no safety guarantees for blood transfusions and there will be victims.

So while there has been no mention at this point of sexual transmission with this new threat, there also is no test to know if someone has it, a long incubation period (10 years) similar to the early days of HIV, a possibility some will be carriers while others will contract the disease, no clear knowledge on all methods of how transmission occurs, and transmission clearly through blood and blood products so even with play that does not include sex but maybe blood or tissue left on toys or surroundings, what are the measures some others take? Does it concern you enough to take precautions? Does anyone think about risks of further unknown at this point diseases they may come into contact with through play? Are there forms of play you are not willing to participate in with others based on health risks of disease transmission alone? LOL, I'm not paranoid but it does fascinate me as do most things biological.

Catalina

Click to expand...

As Gallant Man has pointed out about Prions, part of the reason it is so difficult to sterilize/sanitize is because how they "reproduce" is not really understood well yet. It is something very different from virus particles and bacteria.

It is also notable that one of the "symptoms" of these diseases amyloid protein deposits are also found in Alzheimer's in addition to the illnesses listed in the article that GM linked to.

Catalina, for myself - I'm hoping to be a bit like Graceanne - the first one is the only one. Let's hope I choose correctly. If I decide to "test the water" before I get to that decision, I will be playing safely as much as I can, but...

I am allergic to Latex (can we say my eyelids will blow up into balloons and I will itch all over and have large welts - I will not be very happy or feeling very sexy at that point). I plan on using the female condom because it is made from non latex material.

I'm not familiar with what material dental dams are made of... are there any brands that are non-latex?

Private_Label said:

As Gallant Man has pointed out about Prions, part of the reason it is so difficult to sterilize/sanitize is because how they "reproduce" is not really understood well yet. It is something very different from virus particles and bacteria.

It is also notable that one of the "symptoms" of these diseases amyloid protein deposits are also found in Alzheimer's in addition to the illnesses listed in the article that GM linked to.

Catalina, for myself - I'm hoping to be a bit like Graceanne - the first one is the only one. Let's hope I choose correctly. If I decide to "test the water" before I get to that decision, I will be playing safely as much as I can, but...

I am allergic to Latex (can we say my eyelids will blow up into balloons and I will itch all over and have large welts - I will not be very happy or feeling very sexy at that point). I plan on using the female condom because it is made from non latex material.

I'm not familiar with what material dental dams are made of... are there any brands that are non-latex?

Click to expand...

Dams are latex, however, apparently NON microwavable saran can be safely used in the same fashion.

catalina_francisco said:

That is true, but then there are also other STD's such as herpes which are raging and transmittable through that means. Granted it is not deadly but it would be unpleasant, and does make someone then more open to cantracting other STD's such as HIV. Overall though, as you say, it becomes a matter of weighing up stats and probability and what risks you are prepared to take and live with....I just continue to be astounded there are so many who are not even remotely aware of risk factors.

Catalina

Click to expand...

I recently told all my friends/aquaintences through my lj and other various forms about being sick. Mostly because of the fact that i do want to speak up and promote awareness...
I got genital herpes because someone else gave me oral sex and they werne't even SHOWING symptoms. I was kinda pressured into doing sexual activities with him too, so i'm doubly bitter.
BUT ANYWAY!
condoms + damns + gloves + barriers of any sort = YAY
BUT
condoms = not totally protective.
If there's contagions fluid on skin surrounding the penis OR surrounding the entrance to the vagina, a condom dosne't cover your entire groin...
A person is contagious before (no symptoms yet), during, and after an outbreak. they also have random days where between outbreaks they are contagious as well yet showing no symptoms.
Things like HPV can hide also. My friend was in a monogamious relationship, first man she ever slept with, yadda yadda yadda... Suddenly she notices something funny in his genital area, she's not sure what the hell is going on. He's been tested and he came up clean... wewll, NOPE it was Warts... it was just inactive so that the basic STD tests couldn't uncover it. My friend now has the kind of HPV that can cause cancerious cells on the cervex/uterus, so she has to get her uterus freezdried every so often and stripped...

also, alcohol won't kill hep c. I know that from my piercing friends. If you don't have acess to matacide, bleach and boiling water work. But if you have silicone toys... well... trouble arises i'm sure... anyway, it sounds silly but it's super easy, if your'e sharing toys, put a condom on them! Cleanup is so much easier and sometimes you'll actually need less lubrication because it's either on the condom already or the texture of the condom is more condusive to slippery then the texture of the toy.

ammre said:

condoms + damns + gloves + barriers of any sort = YAY
BUT
condoms = not totally protective.

Click to expand...

Yes, you are absolutely correct. Here are the statistics:
=============================================
Over a one-year period, with perfect use -- always using a condom and putting it on before skin-to-skin contact -- condoms reduce the risk of becoming pregnant to 3% and reduce the chance of contracting HIV to less than 1%. For most other STDs, experts say evidence suggests condoms reduce the risk of infection, but effectiveness varies by disease and more research is needed. According to a 2004 World Health Organization bulletin and a 2001 NIH report, individual studies have demonstrated that condom use reduces the risk of infection for:

* Gonorrhea by 39% to 62% in women and 49% to 75% in men;
* Chlamydia by 26% to 90% in women and 33% in men;
* Genital herpes by 30% to 92% in women and less in men, though no numbers were given;
* Trichomoniasis by 30% in women and significantly less in men, though no numbers were given;
* Syphilis by 40% to 60% in both sexes;
* Pelvic inflammatory disease by 55%; and
* Genital ulcers by 18% to 23% in both sexes.

There is no evidence that condoms prevent transmission of human papillomavirus, which is the leading cause of cervical cancer (AP/Yahoo! News, 6/29).
=====================================================
http://www.kaisernetwork.org/daily_reports/rep_index.cfm?hint=2&DR_ID=31091

ammre said:

I recently told all my friends/aquaintences through my lj and other various forms about being sick. Mostly because of the fact that i do want to speak up and promote awareness...
I got genital herpes because someone else gave me oral sex and they werne't even SHOWING symptoms. I was kinda pressured into doing sexual activities with him too, so i'm doubly bitter.
BUT ANYWAY!
condoms + damns + gloves + barriers of any sort = YAY
BUT
condoms = not totally protective.
If there's contagions fluid on skin surrounding the penis OR surrounding the entrance to the vagina, a condom dosne't cover your entire groin...
A person is contagious before (no symptoms yet), during, and after an outbreak. they also have random days where between outbreaks they are contagious as well yet showing no symptoms.
Things like HPV can hide also. My friend was in a monogamious relationship, first man she ever slept with, yadda yadda yadda... Suddenly she notices something funny in his genital area, she's not sure what the hell is going on. He's been tested and he came up clean... wewll, NOPE it was Warts... it was just inactive so that the basic STD tests couldn't uncover it. My friend now has the kind of HPV that can cause cancerious cells on the cervex/uterus, so she has to get her uterus freezdried every so often and stripped...

also, alcohol won't kill hep c. I know that from my piercing friends. If you don't have acess to matacide, bleach and boiling water work. But if you have silicone toys... well... trouble arises i'm sure... anyway, it sounds silly but it's super easy, if your'e sharing toys, put a condom on them! Cleanup is so much easier and sometimes you'll actually need less lubrication because it's either on the condom already or the texture of the condom is more condusive to slippery then the texture of the toy.

Click to expand...

Sorry to hear that you have had to go through this ammre....I mentioned the method of transmission through which you contracted it here once before, and the fact there is no visible outbreak present at the time, and basically was not well received....lol, part of the reason I introduced this thread in the manner I did. I had seen pics of a woman on a health site who had the exact same experience as you.....and this is why I just don't get why people who believe protection is a reality when giving a guy head seem to discount it when it is the reverse situation and as some have told me, think it is just plain stupid to expect someone to use protection when licking pussy. It seems as in many things with the human race, as a whole most do not want to face reality preferring to bury their heads in the sand....denial is cold comfort after the fact. I hope you get better as I know many who say they now appear to be in remission. I have also read the amino acid L-Lysine which is available over the counter is a very effective treatment which has kept many people in remission as long as they continue the dosage.

Catalina

Private_Label said:

As Gallant Man has pointed out about Prions, part of the reason it is so difficult to sterilize/sanitize is because how they "reproduce" is not really understood well yet. It is something very different from virus particles and bacteria.

It is also notable that one of the "symptoms" of these diseases amyloid protein deposits are also found in Alzheimer's in addition to the illnesses listed in the article that GM linked to.

Catalina, for myself - I'm hoping to be a bit like Graceanne - the first one is the only one. Let's hope I choose correctly. If I decide to "test the water" before I get to that decision, I will be playing safely as much as I can, but...

I am allergic to Latex (can we say my eyelids will blow up into balloons and I will itch all over and have large welts - I will not be very happy or feeling very sexy at that point). I plan on using the female condom because it is made from non latex material.

I'm not familiar with what material dental dams are made of... are there any brands that are non-latex?

Click to expand...

Unfortunately only having one partner is not a bulllet proof method....there have been several people documented who contracted HIV through their first sexual experience, both heterosexual and gay. There was this thread here some time back about alternatives for people with latex allergies. There was a lot of good information and if you got a polyurethane condom, it could I imagine be sliced open the same as a latex one to be used as a surrogate dental dam.

Catalina

ammre said:

also, alcohol won't kill hep c. I know that from my piercing friends. If you don't have acess to matacide, bleach and boiling water work. But if you have silicone toys... well... trouble arises i'm sure... anyway, it sounds silly but it's super easy, if your'e sharing toys, put a condom on them! Cleanup is so much easier and sometimes you'll actually need less lubrication because it's either on the condom already or the texture of the condom is more condusive to slippery then the texture of the toy.

Click to expand...

I like condoms on toys too, however, silicone holds up fine in boiling water for up to 2 minutes! another reason to invest in it. I boil the things between uses.

catalina_francisco said:

Unfortunately only having one partner is not a bulllet proof method....there have been several people documented who contracted HIV through their first sexual experience, both heterosexual and gay. There was this thread here some time back about alternatives for people with latex allergies. There was a lot of good information and if you got a polyurethane condom, it could I imagine be sliced open the same as a latex one to be used as a surrogate dental dam.

Catalina

Click to expand...

That's why K's been tested. Just cause he's my only doesn't mean he doesn't have something to pass on.

graceanne said:

I also get cold sores (and canker sores) if you look at me funny. Then one year I had a cold sore and something like 7 canker sores. I went to my grandma's and she was serving Green Tea. The Green Tea numbed my sores, and the next day all but one was gone. And the day after that the cold sore was nearly better.

I've experimented more with it since then. My cold sores and canker sores happen less often when I'm drinking green tea. Next time I get a cold sore I'm gonna soak a tea bag in water, and hold it on the cold sore and see what happens.

Click to expand...

Green tea boosts the immune system and, according to some, is antiviral, which is why it would help with cold sores. I hadn't thought of actually applying the tea bag to the sore but that's a good idea.

Another thing that has worked really well for me is taking Lysine and Vitamin E supplements when I start to get that icky tingle that means a cold sore is coming or when I know I'm in a situation (like a period of high stress) that might trigger an outbreak. It seems to be working because I get them only rarely now.

shy slave said:

I get cold sores so at those times I don't give oral

It frustrating, they usually occur at the same time as my period if I am stressed and last for weeks.

Click to expand...

Stress and periods are the 2 most common periods for cold sores and genital herpes to flare up. I have read theories on why and it seems most think it is tied to nerve stimulation and lowering of the immune system around these times. The L-Lysine is an amino acid which helps in tissue rejuvenation so is thought that is why it has proven so effective for many. When you have your period is also when a woman is most open to contracting STD's, and/or passing them on as well.

Catalina

~Aquarius~ said:

Green tea boosts the immune system and, according to some, is antiviral, which is why it would help with cold sores. I hadn't thought of actually applying the tea bag to the sore but that's a good idea.

Another thing that has worked really well for me is taking Lysine and Vitamin E supplements when I start to get that icky tingle that means a cold sore is coming or when I know I'm in a situation (like a period of high stress) that might trigger an outbreak. It seems to be working because I get them only rarely now.

Click to expand...

It's also an antioxidant. And when I drank it with all those canker sores it numbed them. I was holding mouthfuls in my mouth for like a minute, then swallowing and getting another gulp. I figure that if it did that much for me, right on the canker sore that it'd do the same thing for a cold sore. I guess I wn't know till I try, though.

Miss Diva said:

Try Tea Tree Oil. I used the last time and the sore was gone in seven days!

Click to expand...

Thanks Miss Diva

I have tried tea tree in the past but maybe I wasn't vigalent enough about putting it on.

Gracie Next time i will try green tea and your tea bag idea.

However if you get one before me and try the tea bag thing please let me know if it works and I will do the same for you.....deal??

Any other health safety tips and awareness anyone wants to share?

Catalina

Hpv

According to my doctor, 80% of women have HPV. Most of the time, your body fights it off by itself (it is a virus, after all). Early detection of it is important because if things start going bad, they can just remove the abnormal cells (caused by HPV) before it develops into something serious. The vaccine they are trialing sounds really good