Is it abuse or just BDSM?

In the BDSM community, we have true believers and devoted followers and we have those who would like to be (wannabes) and we have those who are just using BDSM as a front as a way to get an easy lay (posers).

So, I found this in the paper a couple of days ago and something struck a nerve. It talks about a basic problem in some relationships, but it can also be misunderstood as a Dom/sub relationship to someone who doesn't know any better.

Jealousy and possessiveness in the extreme are usually partners to abuse. But, they can also seem fine, in mild doses, To some, it's difficult to know the difference, unless you've experienced abuse. So, some of the following warning signs might seem to resemble a dominant partner while they might ring true as an abusive partner, to those who've been there.

Watch These Warning Signs For Abuse
Use this self-assessment to help evaluate if a relationship is healthy or abusive.

A rrelationship is abusive if a partner:

1) Gets extremely jealous or possessive.

2) Accuses you of flirting or cheating.

3) Constantly checks up on you or makes you check in.

4) Tells you how to dress.

5) Tries to control what you do or who you see.

6) Tries to keep you from seeing or talking to your family.

7) Has big mood swings, being angry and loud one minute and sweet and apologetic the next.

8) Makes you feel nervous or like you're walking on eggshells.

9) Puts you down and makes you feel as if you can't do anything right or that nobody else would want to be with you.

10) Threatens to hurt you, your family or friends.

11) Threatens to commit suicide or hurt himself or herself because of you.

12) Threatens to hurt your pets or destroy your things.

13) Yells, grabs, pushes, shoves, shakes, punches, slaps, holds you down, throws things or hurts you in any way.

14) Breaks or throws things, when you argue.

15) Pressures or forces you to have sex or go further than you want to.

Reading these warning signs, you might have seen some that are part of your BDSM relationship and see nothing unhealthy about it. I'd say, in most situations, there is nothing wrong. But, to an outsider or vanilla person, most BDSM relationships are seen to have some abusive traits. That's the problem. And, I'm sure this list wasn't created by someone involved in BDSM.

So, because we are a little different than the vanilla crowd, it might be good to hear from some who have experienced an abusive partner, and can help us understand the differences in these 15 signs, relating to the BDSM lifestyle.

4,5,8,13,15

1,2,3,4,5,7,8,11,13,15

DVS said:

In the BDSM community, we have true believers and devoted followers and we have those who would like to be (wannabes) and we have those who are just using BDSM as a front as a way to get an easy lay (posers).

So, I found this in the paper a couple of days ago and something struck a nerve. It talks about a basic problem in some relationships, but it can also be misunderstood as a Dom/sub relationship to someone who doesn't know any better.

Jealousy and possessiveness in the extreme are usually partners to abuse. But, they can also seem fine, in mild doses, To some, it's difficult to know the difference, unless you've experienced abuse. So, some of the following warning signs might seem to resemble a dominant partner while they might ring true as an abusive partner, to those who've been there.

Watch These Warning Signs For Abuse
Use this self-assessment to help evaluate if a relationship is healthy or abusive.

A rrelationship is abusive if a partner:

1) Gets extremely jealous or possessive.

2) Accuses you of flirting or cheating.

3) Constantly checks up on you or makes you check in.

4) Tells you how to dress.

5) Tries to control what you do or who you see.

6) Tries to keep you from seeing or talking to your family.

7) Has big mood swings, being angry and loud one minute and sweet and apologetic the next.

8) Makes you feel nervous or like you're walking on eggshells.

9) Puts you down and makes you feel as if you can't do anything right or that nobody else would want to be with you.

10) Threatens to hurt you, your family or friends.

11) Threatens to commit suicide or hurt himself or herself because of you.

12) Threatens to hurt your pets or destroy your things.

13) Yells, grabs, pushes, shoves, shakes, punches, slaps, holds you down, throws things or hurts you in any way.

14) Breaks or throws things, when you argue.

15) Pressures or forces you to have sex or go further than you want to.

Reading these warning signs, you might have seen some that are part of your BDSM relationship and see nothing unhealthy about it. I'd say, in most situations, there is nothing wrong. But, to an outsider or vanilla person, most BDSM relationships are seen to have some abusive traits. That's the problem. And, I'm sure this list wasn't created by someone involved in BDSM.

So, because we are a little different than the vanilla crowd, it might be good to hear from some who have experienced an abusive partner, and can help us understand the differences in these 15 signs, relating to the BDSM lifestyle.

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I think that #2 is abusive, if their's no reason for your partner to think you've been flirting or cheating.

I think #6 is. Now if you choose to cut of contact from your family, that's another thing.

I think #7 is. But I also think that it's one of those that isn't that abusive. Some people are moody, and others are bi polar. That doesn't make them bad people, just a little confusing.

Number 8 and 9 are. If someone loves you they will try to build you up, not tear you down.

10, 11 and 12. That's just emotional blackmail.

13 is one of those it depends things. If they are out of control then it's abuse. If they're in control it's hot.

DVS said:

So, because we are a little different than the vanilla crowd, it might be good to hear from some who have experienced an abusive partner, and can help us understand the differences in these 15 signs, relating to the BDSM lifestyle.

Click to expand...

In an abusive relationship, many of those signs exist and is usually a lot more evident IMO. In a BDSM relationship, only a handful of those "signs" really apply, and *MOST* people are bright enough to be cautious about how they display it. Not to say that abusive relationships are easy to recognize.

It is a matter of being subjective or objective in your assessment. The list presented are the classic red flags of an abusive relationship.....and are often not seen until the abused is thoroughly broken down to a point where it is difficult or impossible to climb back out of the vortex of abuse. That being said, any one or all of the behaviours on the list can be part of a BDSM relationship as well, but not necessarily abusive, though sometimes they are.....BDSM is not immune to abuse unfortunately.

The difference is very simple when you cut away all the 'what if's' and deal with the facts....BDSM is based on consent and if these things have been accepted and consented to in an informed manner, even longed for, it is no longer abuse. Of course then you can say but what if the person didn't realise what they agreed to, or found they couldn't handle it.....that is when communication comes in, and also a good dose of knowing what you are contemplating first as opposed to a fantasy image is always handy. If the person on the receiving end feels abused, there is definately a need for discussion and checking as to why they feel that way and if things need changing or perhaps just reassurance (especially for those newer to the experience), or the relationship should end.

Abuse does often come down to how particular behaviour affects another, not simply whether it is considered abusive by the possible abuser or others on the outside looking in. If the behaviour experienced makes the one on the receiving end feel bad in a bad way, have negative thoughts as an outcome of the behaviour, feel totally opressed and unable to endure, or want to take their own life to escape, the relationship is abusive whether that was the intention or not. Interestingly, there are many professionals who work in the abuse field who are into BDSM on various levels, but can separate the two and recognise abuse from consensual behaviour without getting confused into believing the boundaries cross or both states are the same...they are not.

Catalina

DVS said:

In the BDSM community, we have true believers and devoted followers and we have those who would like to be (wannabes) and we have those who are just using BDSM as a front as a way to get an easy lay (posers).

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HI, Catalina-francisco defined the key issues differentiating abuse from what appears to be abuse very well. It's a matter of the subject's response to an action or behaviour. The action has to be responsible and loving and the subject has to enjoy it on some level. The line starts to blur when the "unintentional abuser" is not perceptive enough to see the negative effect he/she has on the victim. I guess the issue starts to really blur dealing with very sensitive individuals, who respond negatively to many things. This is an interesting and complicated topic.

In my naivete, I was just curious how exactly someone uses BDSM to get an easy lay. Really, not that I want to. But I guess if that's so true, my eyes should be opened wider.

mysteryinc said:

In my naivete, I was just curious how exactly someone uses BDSM to get an easy lay. Really, not that I want to. But I guess if that's so true, my eyes should be opened wider.

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Thanks for the compliment LOL, there are a certain element of men in particular (though women at times are also guilty of it) who either think being submissive means you will sleep with anyone who orders you to, or pretend to be Dominant to get a submissive to have sex with them....and many inexperienced submissives who fall into the trap of believing these men are genuine in their assumed dominant role, and that a submissive does have to deliver so to speak to prove her desire to submit. Cruising the personal sites opens your eyes to this very quickly if you begin to communicate with some of them, or even just follow their profile over time. I should add that it also is often reversed as in men posing as subs in order to get laid....we have come across a few of those. One in particular who changed his profile over a 4 week period from submissive/slave to switch to Dominant to vanilla then back to switch....and who we met with just to make sure (before the first change) and it became evident in 5 minutes he had no idea about anything BDSM.

Catalina

I scanned the list, very quickly.

I'd say the item by item dissection isn't the issue so much as "are these things happening and making you miserable, scared for your wellbeing, or threatened?"

If you can honestly say, no, I like having my clothes chosen for me, then mazel t'ov.

Netzach said:

I scanned the list, very quickly.

I'd say the item by item dissection isn't the issue so much as "are these things happening and making you miserable, scared for your wellbeing, or threatened?"

If you can honestly say, no, I like having my clothes chosen for me, then mazel t'ov.

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Very true. There are a bunch of other things that aren't on this list that could be considered abusive if they're making you miserable.

Being too calm and withdrawn all the time for example. I could never be with someone who couldn't let themselves go a bit and be their true unfiltered self at times, I'd always feel like I was talking to their representative. In extreme situations, I think an extra cool and icy demeanor can be extremely abusive.

I would say from personal experience that BDSM and abuse are totally different. Abusers do not care what happens to their victim and most of all it is not consensual! Even when my Master forces himself on me I know I can stop it at any time, but with abuse there is no stoping it no matter how much you beg, there is no safe word! That is the biggest difference, while the activity may seem unconsensual there is always consent! Just my $0.02.

Marquis said:

Very true. There are a bunch of other things that aren't on this list that could be considered abusive if they're making you miserable.

Being too calm and withdrawn all the time for example. I could never be with someone who couldn't let themselves go a bit and be their true unfiltered self at times, I'd always feel like I was talking to their representative. In extreme situations, I think an extra cool and icy demeanor can be extremely abusive.

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True enough. My sister is divorcing her husband cause he would give her the silent treatment for sometimes weeks at an end. He wouldn't even tell her why he was mad. She finally got sick of playing the "What's wrong?" game and left him.

graceanne said:

True enough. My sister is divorcing her husband cause he would give her the silent treatment for sometimes weeks at an end. He wouldn't even tell her why he was mad. She finally got sick of playing the "What's wrong?" game and left him.

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I had a girlfriend who used to do this to me. That felt incredibly abusive to me.

I my last relationship I experienced 11 of those 15 things, god I feel so stupid about it. I should have known better.

graceanne said:

True enough. My sister is divorcing her husband cause he would give her the silent treatment for sometimes weeks at an end. He wouldn't even tell her why he was mad. She finally got sick of playing the "What's wrong?" game and left him.

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Good for her! I wasn't allowed to tell my ex to "shut up" or be quiet, he wouldn't talk for days until I figured out the "secret" word or phrase. Sometimes I didn't want to find the phrase. Sometimes it'd be something like "I want to fuck your dog" this guy was a grade "a" asshole.
Note: I never guessed that phrase. He told his best buddy who told me while he was stoned (gotta love stoner friends, they never kept secrets from me )

Sometimes I worry that I might be abusing. I am still having difficulties accepting my kinks. I talk with subbie about it trying to make sure what I'm doing is ok. Thank you DVS for posting that list. I think #4, the first part of number 5, and 13 aren't necessarily abusive if applied to the SSC idea of the BDSM community. They can be if taken too far or outside of SSC.

Here are some other links related to defining the difference between abuse and BDSM - D/s - SM....some are better than others.....the first 2 are excellent IMHO.

BDSM or abuse
BDSM or abuse
Difference between BDSM and abuse
BDSM vs Abuse

Catalina

tealsphynx said:

I my last relationship I experienced 11 of those 15 things, god I feel so stupid about it. I should have known better.

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You did know better, you did! You are no longer in that relationship. There are some people (men as well as women) who are not emotionally strong enough to leave for various reasons. That you had the strength to say "I will not accept this from you" and walk away from the relationship shows that you have an inner strength. It isn't about how we end up in the situation but how we deal with it that defines "stupid."

Private_Label said:

You did know better, you did! You are no longer in that relationship. There are some people (men as well as women) who are not emotionally strong enough to leave for various reasons. That you had the strength to say "I will not accept this from you" and walk away from the relationship shows that you have an inner strength. It isn't about how we end up in the situation but how we deal with it that defines "stupid."

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I was in it for 3 years! It was bad. But that was then.

tealsphynx said:

I was in it for 3 years! It was bad. But that was then.

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Well you are not the only one trust me and you are in such a better place now.

*hugs*

The cold thing is killer abusive to me at least.

I never left, 10 years for me and he left when I got to strong for him to flip my switches anymore. Left the worst way he could but still at least he did leave because I wouldn't have. I can be a real stubborn fool.

*shakes head.*

I'm in a better place now too, better and better every day in fact.

Fury

Wow, 10 years. Yeah, I can be a stubborn fool too. I think my big thing was that I've always been a real help to my friends and once I've helped them they leave me. He needed alot of help and it took me a while to discover that it was more help than I could give. Another thing that would happen alot is that we would argue and then I would yell I'd "had enough, I'm out of this relationship" and then after I'd leave and calm down I'd wonder if it's what I wanted. That and I've always believed that making decisions like that when anger clouds your vision isn't always good. But at the same time there was alot of anger in that relaitonship. It took for him to move to another state for me to realize I was better without him. It was total bliss when he left. No more fights, no more telling him I'd come over when class was out and then telling him class would be out 2 hours after it really was just so I could commute and go home for a shower and some lunch, no more defending myself to him that I wasn't sleeping with any of his friends. It was total freedom to me when he left. To make it easier on the part of me that loved the good part of him we stayed friends for a while. We'd talk on the phone and email. He'd ask for help with his new girlfriend. Then when I was about 8 months pregnant I was driving home from an appointment and part of me couldn't stop remembering the bad and I emailed him telling him about the abuse and that he'd better hope to god he doesn't get caught doing the same thing to other girls, cause he'd just get worse and worse until he was physically abusive. Last I heard was rumor his g/f was pregnant. I hope to god it changes his outlook on life, or that poor child should go to a foster home.

tealsphynx said:

Wow, 10 years...

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Yes 10 and it would have been forever if he hadn't left. I am loyal and stubborn to the point of stupidity! I will cut off my nose to spite my face. Remember he left because he couldn't mind fuck me into desperation and suicidal thoughts anymore. Awww now ain't that a damn shame.

*hugs* To you over your ordeal! In my opinion, being happy and alive is the best revenge.

Fury

Catalina, I loved those sites, and this sums it up perfectly!

If an activity leaves the submissive feeling, dirty, fearful, scared, or in any way shape or form negatively effected then the event was abuse.

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I can personally say I have never been afraid of E, I trust Him with my life. He has never given me reason to doubt that He is always in control with me and if I say stop He stops right away. That to me is the basic difference between BDSM and abuse, the abiltiy to stop whatever is going on in an instant! If that is not there then it is abuse plain and simple!

I stayed with my husband for 23 years. He was emotionally abusive not physical, though he could be cruel to animals (and he is a farmer )

He did nos 1, 8, 9, 11, 13 and 15 on that list. I used to wish that he'd be killed in an accident and things would be taken out of my hands. I could literally feel my heart sink when he came home from work. We would never argue, but he'd give me the silent treatment, sometimes for days. He threatened to kill himself after I left (we were on the phone, and our daughter, 14 at the time, could hear every word).

Living with Master now I'm still finding my emotional feet, but there is much laughter and love in my life now whereas before all I can really remember is depression and unhappiness. It's been three years and the sense of freedom is still amazing to me

Bandit58 said:

I stayed with my husband for 23 years. He was emotionally abusive not physical, though he could be cruel to animals (and he is a farmer )

He did nos 1, 8, 9, 11, 13 and 15 on that list. I used to wish that he'd be killed in an accident and things would be taken out of my hands. I could literally feel my heart sink when he came home from work. We would never argue, but he'd give me the silent treatment, sometimes for days. He threatened to kill himself after I left (we were on the phone, and our daughter, 14 at the time, could hear every word).

Living with Master now I'm still finding my emotional feet, but there is much laughter and love in my life now whereas before all I can really remember is depression and unhappiness. It's been three years and the sense of freedom is still amazing to me

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I know how you feel Bandit.

I literally thought I would die if he left, if we weren't together. When he did leave, with me newly pregnant, because he wanted me to get pregnant, I thought very seriously about killing him while I cried for two hours. Lord I had some great ideas for that.

Then I suddenly felt like a great weight had been lifted from me. I felt relieved and I still am!

Remember that episode, (if you are old enough) of Dallas, that Bobby who had been dead was suddenly in Pamela's shower and it was all just a dream?

I sometimes dream he is back in my shower and life. That is a fucking nightmare! I have to get rid of him and back to my wonderful husband now.

Dreams can so suck. LOL.

Fury

I 'm not sure if this is the right way to respond to this but I wanted to respond in someway so if its ok i'll just break it down rule by rule as to how it applies to me.




1) Gets extremely jealous or possessive.

My Master and I use to both be very jelous people, but we found the more we got to know each other and learned to trust the other the easier it was to let go of all of our jelousy and now live a poly relationship, and I never see any jelous or possessive behaviors in any of.

2) Accuses you of flirting or cheating.
Both My Master and I have both in some way or another cheated on the other in the past, it took a long time to get over the hurt this caused us both. It took counseling, lots of time together, long talks and learning to be open and honest in al we do to over come the cheating and to be able to not accuse the other of cheating, but aventually we made it and are still together and have created a new life for ourselves.

3) Constantly checks up on you or makes you check in.
I was molested as a child many here already know this about me, I was then raped in 1996 after the his happened I was very clingy, I tried to kill myself and found being alone a very frighten thing, My Master thought a way for me to learn to deal with this was to have me check in daily with him, I calle dhim everyday at a certain time, if I was out I called to check in, if my plans changed and I was going somewhere other than where he thought I was going I was to call and let him know, at first i thought it was a bad thing having to check in with him, but it made me feel safe, like I was never alone and at the time it was what i needed that safe feeling, feeling as if I wasn't alone I needed that, he knew it, so it worked for us, I don't check in with him anymore, but I know if I need him all i have to do is pick up the phone and call if only to hear his voice.

4) Tells you how to dress.
My Master always approves what I wear, he lets me choose it if I want or he isn't here to do so but he always approves it if he doesn't like it I don't wear it. But this is a rule we discussed openly before we included it in our daily lives, it was something we both wanted.

5) Tries to control what you do or who you see.
This rule I guess I can see in both lights as abbussive and as part of BDSM, 1. I have a mind I k now who I like and what I like to do, I wouldn't want anyone to tell me I couldn't be friends with who I wanted or go where I wanted, but I can see him not approving of certain places or people if he thought it might cause me harm in anyway or if he thought it might not be a safe situation.MY Master likes it when I make descions on my own, but sometimes I like him to make all the descions for me so I guess thats the rub on this one, it would depend on if you wanted him/her to make all the descions for you at a given time, and if he wanted to.

6) Tries to keep you from seeing or talking to your family.
This one I agree is totally abbussive, you need family you both do, blood is thicker than water, and you didn't get to choose your family members so even if you don't really like them alot you still love them and no one should keep you from them unless you choose not to see them yourself. and I got some I'd choose not to see I think we all do., he has some i'd choos enot to see as well, but I wouldn't keep him from them nor does he force me to see them I just say no thats ok you go ahead I'll see ya when ya get back, and he's ok with it. and I feel the same when he does want to see my family, we just don't stop each other from seeing our own families if that makes since.

7) Has big mood swings, being angry and loud one minute and sweet and apologetic the next.
I'm bipolar, so is my 13 year old so this is like the norm around here, one minute I may feel sweet and inocent and all loving and the next scream and rant and throw things and cry and cuss and any number of other things and my 13 year old is the same wya, and then 5 minutes later be all loving and innocent again, we have both been to theropy sessions and she now takes mediine for it, I have learn to control it with other methods, and leatrn to regonize signs before it gets out of hand. and everyone else in the house has learn to deal with it in there own ways , we just make sure that no matter what happens no ones feelings get hurt and no one ever goes to bed mad at anyone else. it takes time , lots of love and care to learn to deal with this disease but it is possiable.

8) Makes you feel nervous or like you're walking on eggshells.
This I agree is abuse and have no other comment on it.

9) Puts you down and makes you feel as if you can't do anything right or that nobody else would want to be with you.
People who put others down in anyway are very dangerous, it causes low self esteem and many other mental disorders, and many of them lead to suicide or homicide in my opinion. My Master and I both always try to do something daily to help improve the self esteem of those in our lives, whether its a nice word of parise a thank you for something no matter how small, or just a hug, kindness and kind words go along way and generally get you more in the long run.

10) Threatens to hurt you, your family or friends.
Threats wonder if I am guilty of this one myself, I threaten my girls all the time, do your chores or you're grounded, do your homework or you'll get a spanking, they know I'm all hot air and look at me like I'm crazy but I do scream threats like that at them from time to time, I just never carry it through and they know it. But seriously I think threaten to hurt you or your family is abuse, the man who molested me used this to control me when he molested me, he always told me if I ever told he owuld kill my dad and then do the same thing to my sisters that he was doing to me. I believed him it worked. So yes I believe threats are abuse. and something I am learning to rethink in the theropy sessions that I attend learning to deal with all that happened to me.

11) Threatens to commit suicide or hurt himself or herself because of you.
suicide is not joking matter and if anyone ever threated suicide to me or because of me I think first thing I would do was talk to the person make him or her believe what i had to till I could call for help and call and have him or her commited, if a loved on tells the mental health center a person as every intention of harming him or herself they will check it out and can hold a person 7 days if they think a person is considering suicide.

12) Threatens to hurt your pets or destroy your things.
Yes I agree this is abuse, and a cry for help again. I'd call the police they would know how to help you and the person doing the threatening.

13) Yells, grabs, pushes, shoves, shakes, punches, slaps, holds you down, throws things or hurts you in any way.
Yells, I yell back, just me, the calmer you are when you talk to me the more apt I am to listen so yelling just gets yelling, grabs hmmmmmmmm this I could go for I think I like it when he grabs me and puts me where he wants me, I like it when he pulls my hair, picks me up and just moves me or puts me where he wants me but thats just me, pushes on the other hand i'd most likely hit him or push him back, or tell him off, shoves I feel the same as i do about pushing, shoving me would start a fight, punches, or slaps, those are fight starters as well and the police would be called because one of us would get hurt, holds me down that I like , I like to wrestle with him, I like when he holds me down and tells me what he is gonna do or what he wants me to its kin dof foreplay in away to me I guess,throws things I'm more apt to be the one to throw things when I lose it but never at anyone , and I haven't in a long time, but I admit I loose it sometimes, I am bipolar and it affects what I do sometimes and throwing things is just part of it sometimes.If he hurt me in anyway I know that the first vhance I got I would walk away and never look back,.

14) Breaks or throws things, when you argue.
My grandparents fought like this it was something to see, they would ague and we would duck behind a chair or door or whatever else we could we never ran though cause we wanted to watch the fireworks, I saw him throw a bowl of beans up a wall once it stayed there for months cause he dared anyone to clean it up, I saw her strat breaking dishes once , he walked over and started breaking them too, then he said if we keep this up we will have nothing to eat off they both laughed over it, they loved they hated, they fought, they threw things all the time but never hit each other and when it was over they kissed and made up and loved some more, they both are gone now I love them both dearly. Master and I use to fight the same way, he agued I broke things, we both cleaned it up and made up, we out grew that stage in our life and haven't fought for any reason in over 7 years, just a matter of learning what worked for us. We have been together since 1988.

15) Pressures or forces you to have sex or go further than you want to.
don't think he could pressure me into it if he wanted to , and I beg him to take it sometimes because I think being molested and then raped years later, made the idea od being forced a part of my phycy (however ya spell that) we have safe words and rules that I set, Yellow or wait means slow down I need to relax or need more time or something needs to change, red or no means stop now, no questions asked just stop. But I am of the mind set that No means No no matter waht if someone says no stop or its rape and rap eis rape. I do believ rape play is ok as long as rules are set before hand and both people are consenting adults.





I guess this is just my 2 cents worth.