B T K

Bind, Torture, Kill. Maybe you've heard about him, and maybe you haven't. The BTK killer has recently confessed to killing 10 of his victims over the last three decades. The first in 1974 and the last in 1991. All victims were women, except for a complete family as his first targets. In that family, a nine year old boy and an eleven year old girl.

If you saw him on your local TV or maybe national TV, he was in court explaining his murders in vivid detail. This guy, Dennis Rader was the star of his show. He showed no remorse and no sympathy. A sociopath, he doesn't have the mental capacity for it. He was said to be concerned with his own image, and not others. He looked as if he was a doctor or some specialist describing how a serial killer would act, explaining he had a trolling stage and a stalking stage before the killing stage. One psychologist said "He thinks of himself as the gentle serial killer."

Back in the early years of his killing spree, he got upset because police hadn't given him a name. He wanted notoriety, and without a name, he couldn't have all he wanted. So, he gave himself the name BTK, because that's how he killed. He said he would bind his victims, torture them and then kill them.

So, why am I telling you all this, and why on a sex forum? Rader said he killed for "sexual fantasy". He told many of his victims he had a sexual problem and would have to tie them up have sex with them. But, he never had sex with them. Once his victim was tied up, he strangled them. I'll forego some of the other details.

To look at this man, you wouldn't see him as a killer. But then, what does a killer look like? Sure, there are some that are just bad people, but those are the ones who usually get caught within days of killing one person.

It's the truly sick ones who think about how they are going to do it, and carry it out to a pattern and don't get caught. Those are the ones that are difficult to pick out in a crowd. Rader was the leader of his Christian church board. He had a family. He had neighbors. No one suspected a thing.

He finally started giving clues to his identity because police weren't having any luck. He wanted to get caught. It was part of his plan. He wanted to be noticed. "He's very interested in his legacy, the books and movies that will follow,” said a psychologist.

I'm interested to know if this will some how affect our BDSM community in some way. Will it cause potential subs more stress, when meeting that new Dom for the first time? Will it cause the vanilla world to look at us with more distrust than they have in the past? Even though this guy didn't have any BDSM thoughts, he used them in his MO. We all know how the vanilla world tends to tag those they don't understand with such things. It's just how it always happens.

I'm reminded of John Robinson, another local serial killer. He used a personal ad in the BDSM sections of newspapers and web sites to find his victims. He acted like a Dom and even played the part until he had all necessary things in place so he could kill his victims. Yes, they were all women. He stuffed their bodies into 55 gallon barrels. He was so good at it, he wasn't found out for over twenty years. You may remember him as the barrel murderer.

These two cases seem even more offensive to me because they use the BDSM lifestyle to fool or lure their victims. They themselves were not into it for sex at all. It was just a means to the end for them. But, I know some in the vanilla society will always connect them to the darker side of BDSM, just because it's an unknown for them, and easier to understand when they attach it to something.

Just because you are all here, this affects you, in at least a small way. I consider the BDSM lifestyle to be slowly coming out of the closet into the mainstream, for whatever reasons. I think that's a good thing. But, we tend to take one step forward and then two steps back. Getting the BDSM mindset connected with a serial murderer isn't going to help, I wouldn't think.

So, I'm just looking for opinions or comments from anyone here. What do you think about this? Will it affect the BDSM lifestyle? Will it somehow make it more difficult for a sub and a Dom to connect, because of what's been said about these guys and their methods for killing? Do you want to go up to these guys and beat their heads in, for tainting our world? Any other comments?

When school is in session, I live about about 20 minutes away from where all that went down. I was living there when he was caught and the community went crazy. He's a sick bastard, but I didn't realize it had anything to do with sex. I was watching the news the other day and his attorneys said that they didn't know he was going to confess the way he did. Interesting.

In this particular case it has not come out that the guy was at all into BDSM as we are (at least, I haven't heard), a member of any fetish community, or doing any consensual BDSM play at all -- not one bit.

He was more into *church* than bdsm. You better believe if he was Wiccan or kinky or way into PORN and had gigs and gigs of stuff on his HD, all the blame would be put there -- oh yeah, his weird religion twisted him, or his addiction to porn pushed him over the edge.

Akasha

I think that subs are easier to victimize. If I were a serial killer, I definately would be looking for subs with no common sense. "Come on baby, we'll go home and I'll tie you up. It'll be a blast."

It's why their's the whole safety thing everyone preaches. Safety calls, and all that.

AAkasha said:

In this particular case it has not come out that the guy was at all into BDSM as we are (at least, I haven't heard), a member of any fetish community, or doing any consensual BDSM play at all -- not one bit.

He was more into *church* than bdsm. You better believe if he was Wiccan or kinky or way into PORN and had gigs and gigs of stuff on his HD, all the blame would be put there -- oh yeah, his weird religion twisted him, or his addiction to porn pushed him over the edge.

Akasha

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No, he was not a member of any community, as far as I've heard. But, in his confession in court he said "sexual fantasy" was the reason he killed. And he told his victims he had a sexual problem and had to tie them up to have sex with them. But, I think that was only a way to get them tied up, and nothing more. He has never said he actually had sex with any of his victims.

But, the name he chose for himself... BTK. Bind, torture and kill. There are quite a few people who frequent this forum and others that will often participate in the first two letters of his name...bind and torture. I think we more often call it torment, but to an outsider I'm sure it's seen as torture. Now, will this same outsider see it as an easy potential possiblity for some of us to go that next step and kill?

That's kind of what I'm talking about, here. Rader only mentioned the sexual fantasy in his recent court date. He also detailed how he used the sexual problem as a way to tie his victims up. Vanilla people consider BDSM as sick. They see BTK as sick. There is a sexual reference in his confession and in his MO. All of these loose ends put together by someone who knows nothing about the BDSM lifestyle or SS&C, etc., and you have a connection.

I'm not saying he actually used BDSM in his personal life. Neither did John Robinson. But, both used it, or eluded to a sexual need in their manner of process.

I would never, ever in a million years let anyone tie me up if I didn't know them well enough. And the only way I'd ever know someone well enough is if I've met his friends, we have other mutual friends, and I've met his family.

But yea, subs are totally at risk because sometimes, not always, they willingly step right into the trap. Then again, think of all the serial killers who didn't use BDSM to lure their victims.

Liana26 said:

I would never, ever in a million years let anyone tie me up if I didn't know them well enough. And the only way I'd ever know someone well enough is if I've met his friends, we have other mutual friends, and I've met his family.

But yea, subs are totally at risk because sometimes, not always, they willingly step right into the trap. Then again, think of all the serial killers who didn't use BDSM to lure their victims.

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I think he had a gun, too. Would that help you decide?

And it doesn't help or hurt the BDSM community when there is a serial killer who doesn't use BDSM. But, I think it does hurt us when someone does.

DVS said:

I think he had a gun, too. Would that help you decide?

And it doesn't help or hurt the BDSM community when there is a serial killer who doesn't use BDSM. But, I think it does hurt us when someone does.

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Was that meant to be reproachful or am I just being paranoid?

That's... disturbing.

Liana26 said:

Was that meant to be reproachful or am I just being paranoid?

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It's sad, but I think you need to be paranoid. Yes, what you say is a good method to meeting a prospective BDSM mate. But, this guy wasn't giving his victims a choice in the matter.

I'm not trying to scare you, personally. And, like you said, some subs will fall into a trap, because they don't think ahead. But, if someone targets you for his victim, and he's done his homework, he knows enough about you to succeed. He breaks into your house when you are most vulnerable.

Scary? Sure it is. That's why it's so creepy when we hear how these guys think. They seem like normal people on the outside, but something on the inside is driving them ... something that's not even remotely in our expectations of events. Their mind isn't working the same as ours is.

How do we guard against these guys? Maybe we don't or can't. Ted Bundy was a very evil man, but he was quite pretty and also social. The ladies he killed were drawn to him because he looked nice and he could schmooze them. But, then he killed them.

I don't have the answers. I wonder if anybody does. These guys are out there, and we are their playing field. What characteristics they look for is known only to them. And, I don't think anything we do to try to make sure we don't meet up with such a person is going to help us.

If you read what this guy saw in someone, it was kind of random, yet there was something he saw that caught his eye and chose. I don't think you can guard against such a person. Maybe what we need to do is do our best to understand what caused this person to turn out like they did.

Why and how did he become such a monster? Was it his childhood? Was it something in his mental structure that went the wrong way? This guy was living and working in society and had been all his life. But, during the last 30 years of that life, he was also killing people to fill some sexual fantasy he had. That's got to make you feel less secure in life.

An article I read about this guy mentioned something that we as a society may never understand when dealing with a sociopathic mind. A psychologist who had been studying BTK though the years said "The very biggest question is why did he pick that first family? It's hard to believe he wakes up one morning and says 'Gee, I think I want to start killing people.' "

EDITED to correct Jeffery for Ted.

You know this thread totally ties into the whole SSN thread. Don't give people you don't know your address. Don't give them your last name, don't give them your social security number or drivers license number.

Also, remember what you mother taught you when you were a kid. Don't get in cars with strangers. Don't take candy (or drinks!) from strangers. For that matter, don't do any of the above with someone you've only known a while either. Don't take strangers home with you. Use your common sense, if something isn't adding up, then take some more time gettng to know the person. And if that bugs them, then they're not worth your time.

Don't go out without a trusted friend or two. And if you do, don't drink. And if you go with friends, make a pact that your friends won't let you leave with a stranger. The biggest worry is STD's, but what if that stranger is a killer, who waits till women (or men) get drunk, then seduces them into going home with them?

Yes, if someone is really really determined, they'll get you, caues the police won't do anything until they've actually harmed you. But their are ways you can make it less likely. If you do all those things most weirdo's will decide you're not worth their effort, especially since their's lots and lots of trusting fools out there that are easier to get.

My answer to the question, if BDSM will be seen differently by society, condemned for the killings of one who used parts of it as a sort of covering for his deeds:
YES

It's the same with all crimes/criminals that sociopaths commit.
In Germany there was a case a couple of weeks back where they found out that a man working at a kindergarten abused the children. Now all male kindergarten teachers have to live with the prejudice of abusing the children. Same thing with priests after it was found out that some are abusive.
Another case, two years or something back, a man killed another one to eat him, mainly to eat his penis. Here it was the big exception, this never happens... a friend from India got warned by his grandma (who still lives in India) to be very careful in Germany, as they still eat people.

What I'm saying is that looking at any group from the outside, seeing the BAD examples, even the *unreal* (as in not really belonging to the group), those that go into the media, make up their opinion society/people have of the whole group.

chris9 said:

My answer to the question, if BDSM will be seen differently by society, condemned for the killings of one who used parts of it as a sort of covering for his deeds:
YES

It's the same with all crimes/criminals that sociopaths commit.
In Germany there was a case a couple of weeks back where they found out that a man working at a kindergarten abused the children. Now all male kindergarten teachers have to live with the prejudice of abusing the children. Same thing with priests after it was found out that some are abusive.
Another case, two years or something back, a man killed another one to eat him, mainly to eat his penis. Here it was the big exception, this never happens... a friend from India got warned by his grandma (who still lives in India) to be very careful in Germany, as they still eat people.

What I'm saying is that looking at any group from the outside, seeing the BAD examples, even the *unreal* (as in not really belonging to the group), those that go into the media, make up their opinion society/people have of the whole group.

Click to expand...

I don't think I've ever seen a heavily targeted media/political campaign specifically against BDSM as a subculture directly related to sadomasochistic crime or sex crimes. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. And, it is a bit surprising -- it seems a slam dunk if the media wanted to go that route. I don't think I've seen a sensationalized news clip, for example, after the BTK story was told, adding on "Now, what exactly *is* sadomasochistic sex, and who's doing it?" -- cut to scenes of extreme, poorly selected BDSM genre material and a few well-selected interview clips that make the participants come off as unstable.

However, I've seen pro domination criminalized as "prostitution" and the BDSM community portrayed as "fringe" or "weird" and of course portrayals of kink in mainstream TV and film tend to show it in a non-positive light.

Now, with the increasing policing of morality (take 2257 for example), I wouldn't be surprised if BDSM became an easy target (as soon as gay marriage is "dealt with"). How easy would it be to portary kinky people as "sick" and "violent" and directly link consensual bdsm to sex crime, and to offend middle america by showing the most hardcore kinks as an example of "what people in the BDSM community do" -- while leaving out lighter forms of play, functional relationships, and the high percentage of people that engage in some sort of erotic power exchange in their bedroom.

They could make pro femdoms illegal, drive the fetish community underground and reclassify bdsm as "assault." Of course, this is all a huge longshot and likely would never happen, but sometimes you have to wonder.

Akasha

chris9 said:

My answer to the question, if BDSM will be seen differently by society, condemned for the killings of one who used parts of it as a sort of covering for his deeds:
YES

It's the same with all crimes/criminals that sociopaths commit.
In Germany there was a case a couple of weeks back where they found out that a man working at a kindergarten abused the children. Now all male kindergarten teachers have to live with the prejudice of abusing the children. Same thing with priests after it was found out that some are abusive.
Another case, two years or something back, a man killed another one to eat him, mainly to eat his penis. Here it was the big exception, this never happens... a friend from India got warned by his grandma (who still lives in India) to be very careful in Germany, as they still eat people.

What I'm saying is that looking at any group from the outside, seeing the BAD examples, even the *unreal* (as in not really belonging to the group), those that go into the media, make up their opinion society/people have of the whole group.

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Exactly my point. It doesn't have to be a crime where BDSM was part of the killer's sexual needs. It only has to be used as a means to get to his victims. Then, for ever after, that is seen as part of the BDSM scene, and that killer is surely not the only one, but just one that got caught.

As you meantion, the same holds true for every situation like this. Male teachers are all watched if one happens to rape one of his female students. All priests all seen as molesters because of a few who do. Even boy scout leaders are seen as molesters because of just one leader who molested one of his scouts.

Any outsider who knows nothing about the situation will always make up his or her mind about something, making a decision without all of the facts. And, from that point on, that will be the norm for the rest of the world, whispers will abound and accusations will be tossed around, and none of what's said will be true, except all will think it is.

It's just human nature for this to be so. We gossip, and we talk. The evil in the world is out there, and because we only see it in short little flashes, like this BTK killer, we wonder just how many like him are out there, and so every strange man we meet from that point on has another hurdle to get past before we feel safe with him.

Some of this is good, I'm sure, because we all need to be safe from the killers and molesters out there. but, there will be a point in time when it will be too much, and how will we stop it, after it's been going on for so long? We probably won't be able to.

I have a few comments that I'd like to throw in here..

Most of the vanilla people I know do not consider all BDSM sick. I truly think that most people are more openminded than they are given credit for as long as they know it's consentual, and that some folks in the BDSM community continue to think that vanillas find them sick because it makes them feel special in some way. Blanket statements such as this should not be made lightly.

I know for sure that everyone I know thinks that serial killers are sick.

To worry about one serial killer causing a shift in the opinion of the world towards one lifestyle is pretty paranoid IMO. Serial killers always have something that they look for in their victims. Sometimes it's all made up in their own minds, but it is often such things as race, religion, sexuality, personality, physical attractiveness (which is subjective to each individual of course) and even time and place. Most if not all people must know this by now, and also must realize that if we worried about all of the traits that human predators look for we'd never leave our wombs..

Jeffery Dahmer was gay, and all of his victims were male not female, and gay as well. Did that make the gay communities uneasy and expectatious of criticism and backlash? I'm sure it did, and it definately happened, and for what I can tell, they survived.. As a female, did knowing I was safe from his particular radar make me feel superior? Well, maybe for some it did, but I myself felt sorry for the ones who had to fear for their lives simply because of who they were. I believe that most people feel that way because we are human beings.

Sorry, I am rambling.... The point of my post is that you are going to find monsters under the bed of any lifestyle. It doesn't matter who or what you are, you just have to be careful. If this monsters' story causes some light to shine on the BDSM community then it will make everyone careful for a while, and most likely bring in some characters that are going to be trouble for those they intereact with. Since there is nothing we can do about the things that happened we need to use things like this to become better educated and informed. You need to stay safe no matter where or what you are.

Take care,
Syb.

I live in Kansas, I'm very familiar w/who BTK is. I've also taken a Serial Killer class (last semester, in fact) in which we discussed BTK at length. I think he very much craves attention and celebrity, whatever way he can get it.

I think that people use the BDSM lifestyle to lure people in because (and I don't mean to offend anyone) it's a very easy way to subdue your victim. The killer does not have to fight the victim in order to tie them up and gag them and make them vulnerable to murder, the victim offers themselves to be bound. It's actually not surprising at all. I think the best and safest way to avoid this type of situation is to not become involved in a BDSM relationship with someone that you hardly know and/or trust.

For example, the Kansas City killer, the Internet Slavemaster, lured his victims over the internet for BDSM sex. Maybe this is an inapropriate environment to point this out, but it doesn't strike me as a safe thing to do to meet up with someone that you met over the internet and engage in an activity in which he will have you bound. *shrugs* But, hey, that's just me.

I'm not at all blaming the victims, I'm just saying that I don't find it at all surprising that sexual predators and murderers would find BDSM to be helpful in luring their victims and subduing them without resistance. There are dangerous people out there!! It doesn't say something negative about BDSM . . . BDSM is a good thing in the context of a highly trusting relationship between responsible people. What people have to realize is that some people in this world are not trustworthy, some are not responsible, and some are violent and murderous, and that the ones that are violent and murderous look and act just like everyone else.

That's where the problem lies.

DVS said:

How do we guard against these guys? Maybe we don't or can't. Jeffery Dalmer was a very evil man, but he was quite pretty and also social. The ladies he killed were drawn to him because he looked nice and he could schmooze them. But, then he killed them.

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Jeff Dahmer didn't kill ladies, I don't think. I believe he killed and dined on gay men. And I don't think he was a looker and a charmer. You might be thinking of Ted Bundy.

I've not seen any connections between BDSM and BTK in the press, only here. If the mainstream press is not connecting the community with BTK, I don't think we need to do ourselves the favor, you know?

The guy is a sociopathic homicidal piece of scum who does not need to continue to live. Put him out of his misery before the movie gets made.

I think it pays to be careful, but I don't think this applies necessarily more to lifestyle femsubs than anyone else dating. A perfectly fit male can attract an Andrew Cunanan and all it takes is a lunatic with a gun, like you said. I don't think one person is more likely to find that person than another, but it pays not to do dowright idiotic things to make it easier for them.

AAkasha said:

I don't think I've ever seen a heavily targeted media/political campaign specifically against BDSM as a subculture directly related to sadomasochistic crime or sex crimes. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. And, it is a bit surprising -- it seems a slam dunk if the media wanted to go that route. I don't think I've seen a sensationalized news clip, for example, after the BTK story was told, adding on "Now, what exactly *is* sadomasochistic sex, and who's doing it?" -- cut to scenes of extreme, poorly selected BDSM genre material and a few well-selected interview clips that make the participants come off as unstable.

However, I've seen pro domination criminalized as "prostitution" and the BDSM community portrayed as "fringe" or "weird" and of course portrayals of kink in mainstream TV and film tend to show it in a non-positive light.

Now, with the increasing policing of morality (take 2257 for example), I wouldn't be surprised if BDSM became an easy target (as soon as gay marriage is "dealt with"). How easy would it be to portary kinky people as "sick" and "violent" and directly link consensual bdsm to sex crime, and to offend middle america by showing the most hardcore kinks as an example of "what people in the BDSM community do" -- while leaving out lighter forms of play, functional relationships, and the high percentage of people that engage in some sort of erotic power exchange in their bedroom.

They could make pro femdoms illegal, drive the fetish community underground and reclassify bdsm as "assault." Of course, this is all a huge longshot and likely would never happen, but sometimes you have to wonder.

Akasha

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I disagree with you in the point of the media making something out of this. I'm not seeing it as going that far. They did do that a little with the John Robinson case, but that was about four years ago. One woman who was almost a victim of his went to the police because she decided she didn't want to see him any more and he had all of her toys. He was seen as a rather fine upstanding person in the local community and this brought a different side of him to light.

But, with BTK, it's far too soon to see something come from it, because he only admitted guilt two days ago. He only gave details of his crimes in the came court hearing, and so there hasn't even been enough time for people to talk about it much. He will be sentenced in August, so it will be brought up again then. Maybe then some of the victim's relatives will be willing to come forwward and talk.

But, what I was mainly thinking about as an impact from this was how indivicuals will see the next time they have to meet a stranger. the next time a Dom wants a sub to get together for dinner, and a little social talk. The next time a munch plans some evening play party and new members are invited for the get together. How will everybody see the new male members, or the new male Dom who just moved to town?

It won't be the media who brings something like this to light, because that only happens during sweeps. I'm talking about the impact of this on the individual, the online sub looking to meet her new Dom for the first time. Will she feel the need for even more precautions than she has taken in the past? Will she require even more safe calls and for longer periods of time than before? Will it take much longer to form a trust between them, and maybe it won't happen because he feels he's put on the spot by her new found stress?

It happens every day. We see it on the news. We wonder what it must feel like to be in the victim's shoes. We only know that, if one does get away, as in the Robinson case. Now, BTK has given us an inside look with his vivid discriptions of his crime timelines. Although he didn't use BDSM in and of itself, he did use parts of it, and with success. I can't help but think submissives in this part of the country, where he killed and where Robinson killed, it's maybe not quite as easy to meet possble play partners.

DVS said:

I disagree with you in the point of the media making something out of this. I'm not seeing it as going that far. They did do that a little with the John Robinson case, but that was about four years ago. One woman who was almost a victim of his went to the police because she decided she didn't want to see him any more and he had all of her toys. He was seen as a rather fine upstanding person in the local community and this brought a different side of him to light.

But, with BTK, it's far too soon to see something come from it, because he only admitted guilt two days ago. He only gave details of his crimes in the came court hearing, and so there hasn't even been enough time for people to talk about it much. He will be sentenced in August, so it will be brought up again then. Maybe then some of the victim's relatives will be willing to come forwward and talk.

But, what I was mainly thinking about as an impact from this was how indivicuals will see the next time they have to meet a stranger. the next time a Dom wants a sub to get together for dinner, and a little social talk. The next time a munch plans some evening play party and new members are invited for the get together. How will everybody see the new male members, or the new male Dom who just moved to town?

It won't be the media who brings something like this to light, because that only happens during sweeps. I'm talking about the impact of this on the individual, the online sub looking to meet her new Dom for the first time. Will she feel the need for even more precautions than she has taken in the past? Will she require even more safe calls and for longer periods of time than before? Will it take much longer to form a trust between them, and maybe it won't happen because he feels he's put on the spot by her new found stress?

It happens every day. We see it on the news. We wonder what it must feel like to be in the victim's shoes. We only know that, if one does get away, as in the Robinson case. Now, BTK has given us an inside look with his vivid discriptions of his crime timelines. Although he didn't use BDSM in and of itself, he did use parts of it, and with success. I can't help but think submissives in this part of the country, where he killed and where Robinson killed, it's maybe not quite as easy to meet possble play partners.

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I think the chances of getting involved with a psychopath probably are just as equal in a vanilla relationship. Or, for a person to become the victim of anonymous psychopath.

You also have to consider that psychopaths in these kinds of cases often (if not always) eroticize the fact that the victim doesn't want it. To "play" with someone who has been tied up tons, done breath control millions of time, likes pain, is not "shocked" by it all -- that'd be a let down to a nut like BTK, wouldn't it? He wants someone to struggle *for real*. If he could get his "sexual jollies" satisfied through consensual BDSM or roleplaying, he'd be doing that. He wants the real thing. I'd bet most of the sadomasochistic psychopaths do.

I think they'll stick to their unsuspecting, unkinky victims. If they are going to risk getting caught and going to jail, they want to make sure their victims really react.

Akasha

AAkasha said:

I think the chances of getting involved with a psychopath probably are just as equal in a vanilla relationship. Or, for a person to become the victim of anonymous psychopath.

You also have to consider that psychopaths in these kinds of cases often (if not always) eroticize the fact that the victim doesn't want it. To "play" with someone who has been tied up tons, done breath control millions of time, likes pain, is not "shocked" by it all -- that'd be a let down to a nut like BTK, wouldn't it? He wants someone to struggle *for real*. If he could get his "sexual jollies" satisfied through consensual BDSM or roleplaying, he'd be doing that. He wants the real thing. I'd bet most of the sadomasochistic psychopaths do.

I think they'll stick to their unsuspecting, unkinky victims. If they are going to risk getting caught and going to jail, they want to make sure their victims really react.

Akasha

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So by posting my pictures on a bdsm site, I'm kinda safeguarding myself against people like BTK?

AppleBiter said:

I live in Kansas, I'm very familiar w/who BTK is. I've also taken a Serial Killer class (last semester, in fact) in which we discussed BTK at length. I think he very much craves attention and celebrity, whatever way he can get it.

I think that people use the BDSM lifestyle to lure people in because (and I don't mean to offend anyone) it's a very easy way to subdue your victim. The killer does not have to fight the victim in order to tie them up and gag them and make them vulnerable to murder, the victim offers themselves to be bound. It's actually not surprising at all. I think the best and safest way to avoid this type of situation is to not become involved in a BDSM relationship with someone that you hardly know and/or trust.

For example, the Kansas City killer, the Internet Slavemaster, lured his victims over the internet for BDSM sex. Maybe this is an inapropriate environment to point this out, but it doesn't strike me as a safe thing to do to meet up with someone that you met over the internet and engage in an activity in which he will have you bound. *shrugs* But, hey, that's just me.

I'm not at all blaming the victims, I'm just saying that I don't find it at all surprising that sexual predators and murderers would find BDSM to be helpful in luring their victims and subduing them without resistance. There are dangerous people out there!! It doesn't say something negative about BDSM . . . BDSM is a good thing in the context of a highly trusting relationship between responsible people. What people have to realize is that some people in this world are not trustworthy, some are not responsible, and some are violent and murderous, and that the ones that are violent and murderous look and act just like everyone else.

That's where the problem lies.

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Another good safeguard is to play in public. It's kind of hard for someone to commit murder in a room full of witnesses. I think that's a big part of why we started playing in groups after all, not just because some of us are exhibitionists.

AAkasha said:

I think the chances of getting involved with a psychopath probably are just as equal in a vanilla relationship. Or, for a person to become the victim of anonymous psychopath.

You also have to consider that psychopaths in these kinds of cases often (if not always) eroticize the fact that the victim doesn't want it. To "play" with someone who has been tied up tons, done breath control millions of time, likes pain, is not "shocked" by it all -- that'd be a let down to a nut like BTK, wouldn't it? He wants someone to struggle *for real*. If he could get his "sexual jollies" satisfied through consensual BDSM or roleplaying, he'd be doing that. He wants the real thing. I'd bet most of the sadomasochistic psychopaths do.

I think they'll stick to their unsuspecting, unkinky victims. If they are going to risk getting caught and going to jail, they want to make sure their victims really react.

Akasha

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Sure, I'll agree with you that the vanilla world has the same worries as the BDSM world. But, you don't have vanilla women looking for someone to tie her up for sex. Don't you think some less than energetic sociopath would find it easier to play along with the scenario (the scenario which was John Robinson's main path for vicitms, by the way), then when the woman is tied up and helpless. he breaks the news to her that he's not going to spank her, and have rough sex with her. He's going to kill her. I think she would tend to struggle just as much as any vanilla woman who doesn't want to die. And, I think he would still get his jollys.

When BTK told one of his victims he had a problem with sex and had to tie her up and have sex with her, she said, "Let's get this over with, so I can call police." When he was asked if he did in fact have sex with her, he said he didn't. He said "I told her I would, but I didn't." He strangled her with a belt, instead.

Was this victim just gullible? Or was she possibly a sub who'd been tied up tons of times and seemed to believe his story and thought no harm would come to her?

DVS said:

It happens every day. We see it on the news. We wonder what it must feel like to be in the victim's shoes. We only know that, if one does get away, as in the Robinson case. Now, BTK has given us an inside look with his vivid discriptions of his crime timelines. Although he didn't use BDSM in and of itself, he did use parts of it, and with success. I can't help but think submissives in this part of the country, where he killed and where Robinson killed, it's maybe not quite as easy to meet possble play partners.

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Yes, for a while submissives will be more careful, same for vanilla people out to meet someone they don't know. But after a while, people forget and get back to their not-so-over-the-top safety precautions. Until another serial killer appears (and does or does not target a specific group). All barriers go up again, then down after a while.
I believe most people (I know for sure I do) block out the worst dangers. They protect themselves as well as they can while still living in this world, enjoying themselves. There is no possibility to protect oneself from everything. And while people do a whole lot when there is a case like BTK, they have to forget again after a while or they would not be able to stay alive. At least that's my theory on human behaviour. It is sure true for food scandals/poisoning/desease.

AppleBiter said:

...For example, the Kansas City killer, the Internet Slavemaster, lured his victims over the internet for BDSM sex. Maybe this is an inapropriate environment to point this out, but it doesn't strike me as a safe thing to do to meet up with someone that you met over the internet and engage in an activity in which he will have you bound. *shrugs* But, hey, that's just me.

I'm not at all blaming the victims, I'm just saying that I don't find it at all surprising that sexual predators and murderers would find BDSM to be helpful in luring their victims and subduing them without resistance. There are dangerous people out there!! It doesn't say something negative about BDSM . . . BDSM is a good thing in the context of a highly trusting relationship between responsible people. What people have to realize is that some people in this world are not trustworthy, some are not responsible, and some are violent and murderous, and that the ones that are violent and murderous look and act just like everyone else.

That's where the problem lies.

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The Slavemaster is John Robinson. His MO was to lure women who were kind of down and out to move to Kansas City and be his slaves. He offered free room and board and a sexual playhouse, etc. He had them sign a contract (well officials feel he had them sign a blank piece of paper and he filled in the blanks, later) staiting they were his slave, body and soul. He would forge documents either giving him rights to their welvare checks, etc., or would forge their signatures on checks and cash them, after he had killed them.

He was also very good at sweet talking his victims. He met his last victim while he was in prison in Cameron, MO. The librarian there struck up a relationship with him while he was in prison for forgery. When he got out, they net and he eventually killed her.

Also, one victim of his was a 21 year old girl. She had a baby girl and was in need of shelter and Robinson offered that. He eventually killed the 21 year old mother and forged adoption papers that allowed his brother and his wife to adopt the baby girl. The brother and his wife evidently were found to know nothing of his murders and wanted a child. That baby is now in her mid teens and knows who the man she's called uncle really is.

There's some bad people out there. You think you can tell when you're talking to them? You think you can spot someone who's evil? I think BTK must have had the same ability to calm his vicitms, and convince them they were safe, as Robinson did. Those people are very dangerous people. Sociopaths who don't have any care at all for the lives of their victims. In BTK's case, I guess it was sexual fantasy. In Robinson's case, he aquired money from his victims checks. Sick, no mater how you look at it.

EDITED TO ADD...
To know these men actually tied women up to kill them kind of makes me feel sick to my stomach that I have something in common with them. Oh, I know we are at completely different ends of that spectrum, but it still makes me wonder about my bondage fetish, sometimes.

DVS said:

There's some bad people out there. You think you can tell when you're talking to them? You think you can spot someone who's evil?

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My point exactly. It's only common sense to take precautions, be wary, be on guard, and be skeptical.