How to defeat Bush's SS plan, soak the rich and give it to the poor.

A discussion for Democrats.

A nice, neat tidy, no name-calling and no finger-pointing thread for those who lurk and are intimidated by the evil neo-conns.

Let's face it, the guy's a clown with the business acumen of Alfred E. Newman. Hell, you may even hate the guy and everything he stands for. So, instead of getting spitting MAD, how about offering an alternative other than Nancy Reagan's "Just Say No?"

Would you like to have a system where the poor pay no FICA, are fully invested in Social Security AND, AND, AND, the government gives them a check every single month out of the pockets of the rich? One that doesn't privatize Social Security? One that keeps ALL the power firmly in Washington where it rightfully belongs as per FDR? How about a system where even the illegal immigrants who are so neccessary to our economy even pay their fair share of taxes? A system that forces even the drug dealers to participate? How about a system that prevents "evil" corporate America from cheating the IRS with the help of Republicans? A plan endorsed by Alan Greenspan? A plan fully rooted in reality, one that doesn't benefit the rich in any way, shape, or form? In fact a plan that "targets" the rich to pay more taxes than the poor?

If your answer to these questions is a resounding oh, hell YES, then you are for a consumption tax, specifically House Resolution number 25 (not to be confused with Love Potion #9). The details of the plan are just a click away at Fairtax.org.

Benefit one: The poor pay no withholding tax.
Benefit two: The poor are fully vested in Social Security and it is fully funded.
Benefit three: The poor get a check from the IRS each and every month, just for being good Americans.
Benefit four: No more fear of the IRS.
Benefit five: No more being forced to tell the government how much money you make.
Benefit six: More money for social programs.
Benefit seven: Sending less money to China because the cost of manufacturing goods in the United States goes down by over 25%.
Benefit eight: More manufacturing jobs for those too st-st-st-stoopid (but inherently "good") to do anything else.
Benefit nine: It forces Washington to spend only what it has, and if Washington feels it needs to increase taxes, it cannot use divide and conquer methods, but must convince and get "ALL" of us to go along with it.

Benefit ten: It takes the initiative away from Bush and gives you an actual idea other than "I hate Bush, conservatives, and especially CHRISTIANS," and instead replaces it with a victory that leads you to "feel" very good about yourself.

[The Shits and Giggles benefit: It also forces Canada, Mexico, and French and German tourists to pay more taxes to Uncle Sam]






So what do you think? Was haben Sie gedenken? [Meinen grossmutti would be ashamed at how bad my Pennsylvania Dutch is! ]



Can't we all just get along?

*chuckle*

Ishmael

Gosh, AJ, that's seems almost too good to be true!!

Say, what would be the tax rate under your flat tax plan?

The imbedded cost of taxation is upward of 30% (new studies are putting it at just over 22%).

Now, if I just say the tax rate will be 30%, it's kind of a scary figure, but when you reduce the cost of a "widget" by 30% and then add the new tax, you still pay less at the register (the math is easy, I did it six months ago in another thread) even with state taxes added on plus, the government saves a huge expense when it no longer needs to fund the IRS for our annual rectal exams.

Benefit eleven: (For those whom HATE government) If you buy used and keep your food purchases to a reasonable level, you pay ZERO taxes.

Now the rich, don't buy used, so they pay the taxes FOR you and then you get your check each month to cover the taxes on the neccessities of life.

SWEET!

DUDE!

No, what's it say?

SWEET!

Since this tax is only on new items, wouldn't that destroy the housing industry?

A new house that cost $200,000.00 in the pre-flat tax era overnight will now cost $260,000 in the flat tax era, using your 30% figure.

When you remove the taxes on lumber and labor, that $200,000 shrinks by 30%.

Good question. Keep them coming.

******* said:

When you remove the taxes on lumber and labor, that $200,000 shrinks by 30%.

Good question. Keep them coming.

Click to expand...

I can't tell if you're seriously advocating this or just parodying it.

Does the tax apply to services as well? Hotels, restaurants, car washes, museum entrance fees, movie tickets, gun rentals....

For the benefit eight'ers...

200K * .3 = 60K
140K * .3 = 42K

140K + 42000 = 182K

Yes. It applies to services. With more discretionary income, we will spend more on services.

It's a vicious cycle and yes, I am adding humor in the hopes of getting an actual discussion, so it does come off as a bit of a parody.

I find it is simple easier to immediately cede the point that Bush is a Chimp and then we can get along without all the bitter acrimony. It doesn't need to be true. That's a debate for an LT thread...

******* said:

Yes. It applies to services. With more discretionary income, we will spend more on services.

It's a vicious cycle and yes, I am adding humor in the hopes of getting an actual discussion, so it does come off as a bit of a parody.

I find it is simple easier to immediately cede the point that Bush is a Chimp and then we can get along without all the bitter acrimony. It doesn't need to be true. That's a debate for an LT thread...

Click to expand...

A %30 tax on services would feel like a lot. I suppose you're offsetting it by lowering overhead; would the numbers balance, or will I still feel it in my expense account every time I have to get a hotel room?

Remember, the cost of labor has gone down by the same 30% for service providers, so we will be paying less to go to the movies...

So we will see more movies, thusly paying more taxes.

It's a really vicious cycle!

Peregrinator said:

A %30 tax on services would feel like a lot. I suppose you're offsetting it by lowering overhead; would the numbers balance, or will I still feel it in my expense account every time I have to get a hotel room?

Click to expand...

Did you see the numbers I ran in response to Throb's question?

The cost of the room goes down (because of Adam Smith's invisible hand).

In short, you are already paying a 30% tax on that room.

And you have to justify it to the IRS.

How fucked up is that?

RobDownSouth said:

Since this tax is only on new items, wouldn't that destroy the housing industry?

A new house that cost $200,000.00 in the pre-flat tax era overnight will now cost $260,000 in the flat tax era, using your 30% figure.

Click to expand...

Wrong oh mathmatically challenged one.

$200,000.00 x .75 = $150,000.00 (reflects the elimination of the hidden taxes on all goods and services.)

$150,000.00 x 1.25 = $187,500.00 (The cost of the house with a 25% tax added into the sales price)

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

Ishmael

******* said:

Did you see the numbers I ran in response to Throb's question?

The cost of the room goes down (because of Adam Smith's invisible hand).

Click to expand...

That's only if Adam has breakfast with the hotel owners, right? And if they decide that cost has gone down, but they'll leave the room prices where they are and send the extra money to their families in Pakistan?

I gotta go to work. I'll look in here later; you have my interest. My dad's a bank exec--maybe forty years now--and he has supported a national sales tax.

Oh, and Bush is a chimp. But at least he's our chimp.....

Benefit 12 - An explosion of US exports. This is such a 'no brainer' that even Rob should be able to figure it out.

Ishmael

Peregrinator said:

That's only if Adam has breakfast with the hotel owners, right? And if they decide that cost has gone down, but they'll leave the room prices where they are and send the extra money to their families in Pakistan?

I gotta go to work. I'll look in here later; you have my interest. My dad's a bank exec--maybe forty years now--and he has supported a national sales tax.

Oh, and Bush is a chimp. But at least he's our chimp.....

Click to expand...

Myabe they will keep the prices high. Some people prefer the Ritz to the Motel Six, but I predict Motel Six stock will rise.

People who know money LOVE this system. People who don't are scared shitless by it because they assume the worst.

That's right Ish. Exports will go up and we'll have to BEG Vincente for more help. Maybe even provide him a fleet of buses...

Bedtime for Bonzo!

Humor me bro in this thread please.

It's too important.

I want to talk to the other side of the aisle, not at it.

Just this once, I'm begging you and you know I don't ask for favors.

I gave him "Bush is an Idiot" for Pete's sake!

Work with me here...

******* said:

That's right Ish. Exports will go up and we'll have to BEG Vincente for more help. Maybe even provide him a fleet of buses...

Bedtime for Bonzo!

Click to expand...

Maybe we should just annex the fucking place.

Mexico = 9.8%

Ishmael

lol on the Internet Quotient!

Let me point out that I showed my math!

Are we agreed that since Dean, Reid, and Pelosi will not give their constituency any new ideas that it is our duty as good citizens of the Republic to offer them some that they can use to their own benefit?

******* said:

Are we agreed that since Dean, Reid, and Pelosi will not give their constituency any new ideas that it is our duty as good citizens of the Republic to offer them some that they can use to their own benefit?

Click to expand...

You can't "give" them anything bro. They won't see the value. Make them PAY.

Ishmael

I'm sure they feel that they've paid the price in full measure anytime they read anything this retard posts...

******* said:

When you remove the taxes on lumber and labor, that $200,000 shrinks by 30%.

Good question. Keep them coming.

Click to expand...

I foresee the cost NOT going down, but the builder pocketing the newfound profit margin.

I would....

And what about the tax savings for mortgage interest deductions on income tax? That would vanish, and a lot of people would panic...