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Here is a question that feminists would hate

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NCShin

Really Experienced
Joined
Nov 21, 2003
Posts
290
Are all women naturally submissive?

I'm not trying to suggest that every woman wants to be tied up and/or spanked.

But in recent discussions with some friends we found that we all agreed that most women that we've dated liked things that are often associated with D/s.

In another example, I have a female friend, who is vanilla. In talking, BDSM came up and she said that she'd love to "top" her husband. In further discussion, her idea of "topping" would be to tie him up, spread eagle on a bed.

At first this sounded fairly reasonable. But as she went on and talked about some things she'd like to do, all of them TO ME sounded like, <long pause as I try to find the word> umm...non dommish things to do.

So, I guess my question comes down to, does the natural instinct of being a caregiver (as apposed to a man's instinct to be a provider) force a natural instinct to be submissive?
 
Re: feminists

" So, I guess my question comes down to, does the natural instinct of being a caregiver (as apposed to a man's instinct to be a provider) force a natural instinct to be submissive? "


I think that caregivers, be it male or female tend to be more nurturing .. but that can be far different from being submissive.

Also, there are caregivers for different reasons .. children, sick family, as a profession , etc . I have know many Dominant people who were wonderful caregivers .. and I surely wouldn't want to try to swat them with my spatula :eek: !

It seems there are more femal submissives , although now that there is this venue , I have seen a lot of male submissives.

You raised a good point , and got me thinking .. nice post !
 
They aren't all submissive---but, until recently, many who were felt shamed by the cultural conditions into pretending otherwise. Now the pendulum appears to be swinging the other way.
 
rosco rathbone said:
They aren't all submissive---but, until recently, many who were felt shamed by the cultural conditions into pretending otherwise. Now the pendulum appears to be swinging the other way.
Click to expand...

shamed into pretending that they WEREN'T submissive? or shamed into pretneding they were?
 
NCShin said:
shamed into pretending that they WEREN'T submissive? or shamed into pretneding they were?
Click to expand...

Im born into a family of very dominant strong ppl. I feel ive always been submissive...more quiet and shy then the others in my family...pretty much just different. I've been made fun of by my syblings for being wishy washy...too soft...too nice...oh and the famous too dependable. Society frowns on a woman who just wants to be who she was born to be. It is taken as a sign of weakness rather then the natural order of things. Women get taken advantage of because of this, emotionally and physically. My opinion is that most women learn at an early age how to disguise their submissive nature, and are very afraid to reveal that side of themselves. I know i dont often show that part of me fully. I can only be completely submissive around someone who accepts it, understands it and wont hurt it.
 
NCShin said:
Are all women naturally submissive?

I'm not trying to suggest that every woman wants to be tied up and/or spanked.

But in recent discussions with some friends we found that we all agreed that most women that we've dated liked things that are often associated with D/s.

In another example, I have a female friend, who is vanilla. In talking, BDSM came up and she said that she'd love to "top" her husband. In further discussion, her idea of "topping" would be to tie him up, spread eagle on a bed.

At first this sounded fairly reasonable. But as she went on and talked about some things she'd like to do, all of them TO ME sounded like, <long pause as I try to find the word> umm...non dommish things to do.

So, I guess my question comes down to, does the natural instinct of being a caregiver (as apposed to a man's instinct to be a provider) force a natural instinct to be submissive?
Click to expand...


Woman are 'taught' to be submissive, an effect of nurture. By nature the feminine is feminine. Can man, in his attempt, really ever 'tame' nature? He efforts and slaves to do so via constructs of history, science, art . . . but nature, my friend, exemplified, simplisitcally here, by the very nature of her cyclical nature . . . While Masoch worshiped the feminine, even de Sade respected the feminine force . . . an intellectual discussion too long for a post.

Alernately, men are 'taught' to be the law . . . There is no natural instinct in women to be a caregiver. It is learned. Just as I have never met a man who would not lay down his life for his children.

Anhow, enough for now.

CH
 
Submission is biblical. Even older than the internet. Things shifted too far with the women's movement and like RR says they seem to be moving the other way as far as acceptance goes.


Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and He is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
 
WriterDom said:
Submission is biblical. Even older than the internet. Things shifted too far with the women's movement and like RR says they seem to be moving the other way as far as acceptance goes.


Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and He is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
Click to expand...

Hm. Laughing at all good mythologies ;)

Thank God Eve had the balls to take the apple! Adam certainly didn't. ;)
 
CharleyH said:
Hm. Laughing at all good mythologies ;)

Thank God Eve had the balls to take the apple! Adam certainly didn't. ;)
Click to expand...

LOL, ain't that the truth. And I would like to know on whose definition the women's movement has supposedly gone too far when women in many developed countries and professions do not get the same pay as their male counterparts for the same hours, responsibilites, skills, and duties? Interesting statement given women have been mentioned even here recently of being the ones held responsible for the welfare of their children, while men are not seen to have to share the load 50/50....but many still expect their visitation rights respected even if they do not pay child support, and are more than willing to step in to prevent the women and children moving to a new life even without their bothering to visit them regularly.

Or like my grandchild's father, use visitation to line his own pocket with government payments paid to reward him for visiting her, not pay any child support (though he has asked my daughter to say he does so he can be financially rewarded some more), and father a new child to a new mother each year for the past 3 years. Yep, your right WD, women just do have it too damn good and should realise how lucky they are. Of course it would not be anything to do with you being bilogically male now would it? Wonder if men had to accept the same deal if it would then be considered too much of a good thing. I suspect not.

As for women being naturally submissive...mmmm, my experience has been women are much more likely to get off their butts and do something (women's movement for one), while men often look left and right and ask someone else to do it for them. And if we are talking lifestyle submission, strange thing is most Dommes are far more agressive and firm handed than the male counterpart from what I have seen and heard.

Catalina :rose:
 
without getting too far off topic...

Catalina...

there are quite a few reasons why women are paid less than men. Just to name a few...

1) they don't demand more. When I was first hired by a major company I was offered a salery. I countered and got seven thousand more per year. While there, I interviewed for other jobs. I told them I had been offered another job but would much rather stay where I was. Another raise on top of my regular yearly one. The few women I worked with started at less money because they didn't ask.

2) They choose to leave the workplace to raise children. So, when they come back, they have less experience than thier male counterparts, thus get less money for the same job.

Anyway, this is pretty off topic...

I am looking for a more biological opinion on if women are natrually more submissive though.

Is there something biological that makes women more often submissive?
 
CharleyH said:
Hm. Laughing at all good mythologies ;)

Thank God Eve had the balls to take the apple! Adam certainly didn't. ;)
Click to expand...

Now I KNOW the WD aint gonna take this kind of nose thumbing lyin down.

come on now hoss, hit her with a dose of abraham, issaac, methuselah jacob noah and all the rest. the real old testament mojo.

man those patriarchs had it made. how far we have fallen since those mighty bible days, eh fellows? and we call ourselves "men".

they're all hoors, hoors & harlots and shameless jezebails.


all kidding aside, i believe it has been proven that the bible represents a fairly accurate portrayal of society amongst the herding peoples of the early mideast cultures and hence not "mythology" as long as one leaves out G-d, miracles and so on---what they call the supernatural now a days. In those days, a man would have many wives and he would rule with a rod of iron, if i am not mistaken.
 
rosco rathbone said:
Now I KNOW the WD aint gonna take this kind of nose thumbing lyin down.

come on now hoss, hit her with a dose of abraham, issaac, methuselah jacob noah and all the rest. the real old testament mojo.

man those patriarchs had it made. how far we have fallen since those mighty bible days, eh fellows? and we call ourselves "men".

they're all hoors, hoors & harlots and shameless jezebails.


all kidding aside, i believe it has been proven that the bible represents a fairly accurate portrayal of society amongst the herding peoples of the early mideast cultures and hence not "mythology" as long as one leaves out G-d, miracles and so on---what they call the supernatural now a days. In those days, a man would have many wives and he would rule with a rod of iron, if i am not mistaken.
Click to expand...

Hm, laying down is not exactly where I would want him. Oh, please, pettiness. Hit me with whatever you think I can take it, it doesn't bother me, I know myself too well, and laugh. An answer, defensive, to my question is MY pleasure. Laughing.

And the bible is only - a fraction of the real fact - hence made up, mythology, and interpreted by the powers that were and never will be, and never have been in the first place. ;) Why the feminist movement, because male dominance can't exist in nature. The bible is patriarchy at it's sloppiest.
 
I think, if anything, there is something biological in women that makes us capable of shouldering more than our share of responsibility, in order to make things run more smoothly.

A lot of those women getting paid less make life very easy for the man who is their boss, getting paid a lot more to dump all his work on her. Been there, done that.. quit and stuck the bastard with all his own mess.

And nowadays, I think it is rather unusual as a whole for a woman to take much more than a two month maternity leave.. most are actually only six weeks.. and then the child goes to daycare and mom goes back to work. I am lucky in that I get to stay home with my daughter.. but my mother didn't stay home with my brother and I.. and I don't have any friends whose mothers stayed home with them. (I'm 27, nearly 28 for a time reference on that. ;) )

I don't feel that it's my desire to submit because I'm a woman. I think it's my desire to submit because it feels good to me. Were I a man, I'd probably feel the same way.

Either way.. it's a hard thing to simply guess at.
 
My gut instinct would be to prejudge the question, and respond with a knee-jerk reaction of "NO!".
Sometimes you just have to go with your instincts.

A couple of observations, more pertaining to how men and women tend to be socialized differently:
  • women are far more likely to avoid conflict by seeming to agree.
  • men are far more likely to assert their opinions as factual and valid, even when it is clear that they have absolutely no basis for thinking they could possibly answer the question.
    [/list=a]
 
i believe there was a time when nearly all Males were Dominant by nature, and when nearly all females were submissive by nature. society encouraged this because it was for the most part a reality. there was a time when humans needed to be specialized...had to be especially skilled at a particular thing, or particular kind of thing, as opposed to being able to do a multitude of things fairly well. there had to be a group that excelled at clothes making, at cooking, at nurturing. there likewise had to be a group that excelled at hunting, at leading. as humans evolved more intellectually, such rigid, uncrossable lines between Male and female were no longer needed in order for us to thrive. so then you have more naturally Dominant women, and then more naturally submissive men. but imo i do not think we have yet reached a point where the majority of women are not submissive by nature (likewise with the majority of Men being Dominant by nature). i just think that today there are far more exceptions to the rule.

but to be completely honest, in real life i have yet to encounter a female i could really call a Dominant. those i have met face to face who call themselves Dommes, were without exception women who had some sort of issue with men in general, and used their "dominance" almost as a sort of payback...sort of a "look who has the whip now" kinda thing, and not as something that just seemed to pour from them naturally. of course it's always possible, even perhaps likely, that i have just had bad luck in meeting actual female Dominants, as that is not a group my Master seeks out for us to interact with. likewise, i have never encountered a man i could consider submissive. i have even sexually served male submissives (who were owned by Dommes) before, and always, when left alone with me, they were aggressive and demanding, like most men i encounter in or out of the lifestyle. again, could just be bad luck.
 
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CharleyH said:
Hm, laying down is not exactly where I would want him. Oh, please, pettiness. Hit me with whatever you think I can take it, it doesn't bother me, I know myself too well, and laugh. An answer, defensive, to my question is MY pleasure. Laughing.

And the bible is only - a fraction of the real fact - hence made up, mythology, and interpreted by the powers that were and never will be, and never have been in the first place. ;) Why the feminist movement, because male dominance can't exist in nature. The bible is patriarchy at it's sloppiest.
Click to expand...

now WD if you let this go without administerin a horsewhippin i will have to let my deaconship lapse and go forth in search of strong drink
 
NCShin said:
Are all women naturally submissive?

So, I guess my question comes down to, does the natural instinct of being a caregiver (as apposed to a man's instinct to be a provider) force a natural instinct to be submissive?
Click to expand...

For me, I am not naturally submissive. Most of my close friends (male and female) are not naturally submissive. I was raised by a strong woman, in a house where everyone was expected to pull their own weight and then some. Does not leave one with the ability to be *submissive* or at least not *very* submissive.

I do believe that women are raised to be the care providers, the nurturing ones, the one's who soothe cranky hubbies and crying children. So women have a tendency to do what is easiest for all involved..which is not a natural instinct..only a learned behaviour.

I am sure there are others who can explain what I mean, better than I can, but for me it boils down to one thing...submission is a way to get what I want. In the end, it does not REALLY make me that submissive, does it?

later

pet

:rose:

PS good thread idea, BTW
 
NCShin said:
Are all women naturally submissive?

No, NCShin, all women are not naturally submissive, to men, or otherwise. Even all heterosexual, vanilla women aren't. Glad I could clear that up!

I'm not trying to suggest that every woman wants to be tied up and/or spanked.

Kudos for that one lack of assumptive suggestion.

But in recent discussions with some friends we found that we all agreed that most women that we've dated liked things that are often associated with D/s.

In another example, I have a female friend, who is vanilla. In talking, BDSM came up and she said that she'd love to "top" her husband. In further discussion, her idea of "topping" would be to tie him up, spread eagle on a bed.

At first this sounded fairly reasonable. But as she went on and talked about some things she'd like to do, all of them TO ME sounded like, <long pause as I try to find the word> umm...non dommish things to do.

What kinds of things would this vanilla woman like to do that make her undomly? I mean aside from being vanilla and all. If it's fucking or sucking, I think that's pretty high up there on most Dominant men's list, so would it just be that she did it without a cock of her own?

So, I guess my question comes down to, does the natural instinct of being a caregiver (as apposed to a man's instinct to be a provider) force a natural instinct to be submissive?

No, NCShin, it doesn't. All natural instincts cannot be broken down and separated by gender. Role and gender are not static. Get out much? ;)
Click to expand...

Have any theories on Dommes and submissive men? Lesbians? Gay men? (Check your BDSM history.) Feminists, both male and female? How about race?

Is this a serious question or are you trying to pull the girls braids like rosco?
 
Yikes! Nature/nurture. I should run very far away...

I have been thinking a lot lately about being a caregiver and being submissive, and if the two are really at all related. In fact I nearly started a thread on it but couldn't get my thoughts together. But I'll post anyway. ;)

I have seen the words caregiver or caretaker used to describe both Dom/me and sub alike. I have come to the conclusion that they are just two sides of the same coin. As a Dom/me the caretaker is in charge of seeing that needs get met in whatever way is their best judgement, much like a mother or father. A caregiver is more service oriented as a sub is and learns to serve in whatever way pleases the recipient best. I think someone who has the strong, natural ability to care for another (not meaning to have affection for another) might function well in either role, the variable being how much control over a situation they need or are comfortable with.

As to the bilogical disposition of women, I do indeed believe that we ARE predisposed to be caretakers/givers for our children. We lactate and produce hormones when we are in the act of mothering. However, mothering doesn't make us naturally submissive, just as being a strong woman wouldn't prevent it.
 
Good post, redelicious, and I agree.. with the caveat that as a mother, I can say not only does mothering not make you submissive, but it makes you protective and dominant as hell. ;) When it comes to that little bitty person, I'd face down anyone, and never have a second's doubt.

pet.. Exactly. Learned trait.. not nature. I don't think it's biology that makes more women exhibit submissive behavior.. I think it's societal norms. Nature makes us caretakers and nurturing. Society teaches us that it's unladylike to be strong and dominating.
 
Re: Re: Here is a question that feminists would hate

lark sparrow said:
Are all women naturally submissive?

No, NCShin, all women are not naturally submissive, to men, or otherwise. Even all heterosexual, vanilla women aren't. Glad I could clear that up!

See, it's bitchy responses like yours that make me, (and I doubt that i'm alone) think that domme isn't dominant, and in fact just erm, bitchy.

I'm not trying to suggest that every woman wants to be tied up and/or spanked.

Kudos for that one lack of assumptive suggestion.

yet another bitchy response. Again, replacing dominant behavior with that of an angry bitter person.

But in recent discussions with some friends we found that we all agreed that most women that we've dated liked things that are often associated with D/s.

In another example, I have a female friend, who is vanilla. In talking, BDSM came up and she said that she'd love to "top" her husband. In further discussion, her idea of "topping" would be to tie him up, spread eagle on a bed.

At first this sounded fairly reasonable. But as she went on and talked about some things she'd like to do, all of them TO ME sounded like, <long pause as I try to find the word> umm...non dommish things to do.

What kinds of things would this vanilla woman like to do that make her undomly? I mean aside from being vanilla and all. If it's fucking or sucking, I think that's pretty high up there on most Dominant men's list, so would it just be that she did it without a cock of her own?

While fucking and sucking is something I enjoy, I do not find much dominant about being on the recieving end of either. Nor do I see it as dominant for her to perform it. It sounded to me more like "subbing from the top" not that I hear that term thrown around too often.

So, I guess my question comes down to, does the natural instinct of being a caregiver (as apposed to a man's instinct to be a provider) force a natural instinct to be submissive?

No, NCShin, it doesn't. All natural instincts cannot be broken down and separated by gender. Role and gender are not static. Get out much?

I didn't suggest that ALL natural insticts could be broken down and seperated by gender. I asked if THIS one could be broken down and generalized by gender. I asked if they were NATURALLY submissive. Not if they COULD be any other way. I asked what in a biological sense they felt.

So far I think that ownedsubgal has given about the most honest answer here. (or maybe just the one I agree with most)


lark sparrow said:
Have any theories on Dommes and submissive men? Lesbians? Gay men? (Check your BDSM history.) Feminists, both male and female? How about race?

Is this a serious question or are you trying to pull the girls braids like rosco?
Click to expand...

about dommes, yes I do but i'm sure you wouldn't like any of them, start a thread. Submissive men, again, yes I do but that isn't the issue here, start your own thread. ;)
Click to expand...
 
Re: Re: Re: Here is a question that feminists would hate

NCShin said:
about dommes, yes I do but i'm sure you wouldn't like any of them, start a thread. ...

See, it's bitchy responses like yours that make me, (and I doubt that i'm alone) think that domme isn't dominant, and in fact just erm, bitchy.
Click to expand...

So, this is what you really think of Dommes? They are just bitchy women to you? Or have I somehow misunderstood your posts?
 
Ah, the "you're not really Dom(me)" discussion. Does it happen as frequently as my meager experience of internet D/s leads me to believe? :confused:
 
sunfox said:


I don't feel that it's my desire to submit because I'm a woman. I think it's my desire to submit because it feels good to me.
Click to expand...

:eek: :eek: :eek: you mean its not your desire to submit for the sole and only reason of pleasing your master, no matter if he were to ask you to cut off a finger or jump off a bridge, just to see the light in his eyes? :eek: damn sunfox, you must not really be a submissive then..tsk tsk. please exit the forum.



</sarcasm>


all kidding aside, i like this answer. i desire to submit because it feels good to me as well. also because i enjoy to please him, and becasue it is my nature, but those aint the only reasons.
 
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