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Is submission a form of control?

redelicious

redelicious

Bedroom Bottom
Joined
May 21, 2002
Posts
12,939
I had a conversation with a Dom the other day about subs who use submission as a form of control (his terminology). His experience was that subs put themselves in situations where they know their limits will be pushed, forcing themselves to overcome fears and therefore gaining control of them.

Personally I am not sure I would have worded it quite like that, but I do think he has a point. Anyone do this?
 
I find that it's not only fears that get overcome and controlled, but also oneself. I for one have to learn how to control my tongue from taunting Him and keeping my hands from purposefully getting out of the knots He puts me in. In a way, it's a sense of accomplishment when I can master my own body like that.
 
redelicious said:
I had a conversation with a Dom the other day about subs who use submission as a form of control (his terminology). His experience was that subs put themselves in situations where they know their limits will be pushed, forcing themselves to overcome fears and therefore gaining control of them.

Personally I am not sure I would have worded it quite like that, but I do think he has a point. Anyone do this?
Click to expand...


i am unsure how subs place themselves in situations to have their limits pushed when it is the Dominant who should and does control where the sub ventures in terms of limits. If the sub is positiong himself/herself to have their limits pushed, that suggests controlling the direction of the relationship and a bit of topping from the bottom no?

i may have misunderstood the question, but the concept is hard to accept. To my way of thinking, the sub does not navigate through the testing of their limits ... the Dominant does.

Let me know if i've read this wrong redelicious.

lara
 
Maybe lara, but I'd kind of be up shit creek if I didn't say to people I play with or people who serve me things like

"where do you want to go?"

If I get "wherever you want me to" and not in that evasive "this is what a slave should say" way, but really meaning it, then I have my information.

I also like to ask what people want to develop.

I think a submissive *should* have goals, that it's ok to have goals that are slightly more defined than "pleasing Daddy" or "being good." Refining yourself, being yourself, freeing yourself from whatever your thing is, balancing your reality, these are all totally valid motivators.
 
Netzach said:
Maybe lara, but I'd kind of be up shit creek if I didn't say to people I play with or people who serve me things like

"where do you want to go?"

If I get "wherever you want me to" and not in that evasive "this is what a slave should say" way, but really meaning it, then I have my information.

I also like to ask what people want to develop.

I think a submissive *should* have goals, that it's ok to have goals that are slightly more defined than "pleasing Daddy" or "being good." Refining yourself, being yourself, freeing yourself from whatever your thing is, balancing your reality, these are all totally valid motivators.
Click to expand...

That's true enough, but don't mistake my simple sentence to mean non-participation from the submissive. A Dominant very obviously has to have the input from the submissive or it is tromping all over landmines and setting them off unknowingly. Still, You, the Dominant, ultimately controls where it goes based on Your observation of the submissive and his/her reactions. That, imo, is not the same as a submissive deliberately placing themselves in a position to have their limits pushed -- somehow that seems controlling and manipulative. i also don't believe there is anything wrong with wanting to extend your (subs) limits and if the sub and Dominant agree to have that be a part of their activities, i say go for it. However, i still think the guiding hand in that situation should be the Dominant's for the most part with careful monitoring of the sub. That isn't very different than You, Netzach, asking where the sub wants to go. The decision as to whether You go there ends with You and You alone. Not much wrong with that in the D/s dynamic or in the Top/bottom scenario either.

lara
 
One way a sub can put herself in a position to have limits tested is through choice of play partners. When I was an "unattached" sub, I would occasionally play with a Dominant who I knew would push me in areas I had soft limits- like one who was really into singletails, and another who was into electric play.

Now that I am with Sir, he will still sometimes give me a "carte blanche" at play parties and then I may choose to request play, or accept and invitation to play, with a Dominant who I know will push my limits somewhat. This is really neat 'cause I can do it knowing Sir is nearby and it is truly safe.

- justina
 
s'lara said:
That's true enough, but don't mistake my simple sentence to mean non-participation from the submissive. A Dominant very obviously has to have the input from the submissive or it is tromping all over landmines and setting them off unknowingly. Still, You, the Dominant, ultimately controls where it goes based on Your observation of the submissive and his/her reactions. That, imo, is not the same as a submissive deliberately placing themselves in a position to have their limits pushed -- somehow that seems controlling and manipulative. i also don't believe there is anything wrong with wanting to extend your (subs) limits and if the sub and Dominant agree to have that be a part of their activities, i say go for it. However, i still think the guiding hand in that situation should be the Dominant's for the most part with careful monitoring of the sub. That isn't very different than You, Netzach, asking where the sub wants to go. The decision as to whether You go there ends with You and You alone. Not much wrong with that in the D/s dynamic or in the Top/bottom scenario either.

lara
Click to expand...

I am with you lara. I can also conceive of a submissive supposedly choosing to interact with someone who would push limits they chose to want pushed, but as you say the Dominant has to be willing and in control, and much of the concept of pushing limits is around the submissive being guided in a way which allows them to gain control over their fears in a safe environment with someone they trust. If the sole purpose was to overcome a huge fear/limit and by choosing that Dominant they placed the responsibility totally on the Dominant, I can see a recipe for disaster and a misplaced responsibility. Part of the journey in overcoming any limit is the submissive acknowledging it and accepting responsibility to attempt to overcome, not to put themselves in a position whereby they hope the Dominant will instigate the activity unaware of the underlying factors, or will force the submissive through it to avoid them doing any of the work needed.

Catalina :rose:
 
I posed the question because I had a little trouble with the idea of gaining control being used to describe why someone might submit. I thought perhaps it was just awkward phrasing however.

Hmm, let me see if I can gather my thoughts on this...

I do think that most of us, I at least, have areas that I want to explore and areas that I need to grow. Is this why I would submit to someone? No, that would miss the point. Would it be a positive outcome of my submission? I could only hope so.

When this Dom and I were talking he was describing how subs can gain a sense of accomplishment when overcoming some obsticle by submitting. As a result the sub might "gain control" of some fear, or whatever behavior the Dom was addressing. I think that most subs are probably aware that limits will be pushed by their Dom/mes and are at least okay if not excited about those possibilites, otherwise they wouldn't go through with it.

For me, it all comes down to why and for whom. I am all for self-improvement and striving to be better at whatever it is one does. And yes, there are lessons to be learned by submitting that would translate to being a better person outside of the relationship. The point is, would I be using the Dom as a means to an end? I think the answer is to never forget that there is someone at the other end saying "you are learning to do this because it pleases ME."
 
I think a better phrasing would be, "Can submission be a form of control?" Unlike our former president I know the meaning of is. So, when I see "Is submission a form of control" it makes me think in absolutes.

Can submission be a form of control? Sure. Is that genuine submission? Maybe and most often not likely. But, I can see scenarios where I may want to encourage Wife to put me in to push certain limits. Some of them because I know it will please her but that she's unsure how I would feel about them. That IMO is still submission. And I can aslo see myself on a rare occassion encouraging play that will pull from me a particular need. Something I need to rid of or freed from and she hasn't put her finger on it yet.

Like a patient who visits the doctor and describes symptoms and specifics of an ailment but then trusts in the doctor's diagnosis and method of treatment.

I think that is different from topping from the bottom. I wouldn't direct or make statements about the specifics of the scene but rather the overall atmoshpere or maybe objective of it.

Does that make any sense? It's a pretty gray area for me and difficult to explain. The dominant and submissive roles so cloesly play off one another that it can get confusing at times with certain specific things.
 
LH, you make alot of sense. Snooze and I have been talking about this alot lately. He expects me to openly tell him what I want, crave need, even down to toys I might enjoy playing with. But all of this is done well before the scene.

Once the scene begins, the control is all his. He decides what sensations I get and where the scene will go. I certainly won't get everything I want, but he sees it as information to use as he takes control of my desires and whether or not they are satisfied.
 
The one thing I can think of that fits this criteria might be in more TPE couples thjan scening couples where disciplines and punishments are set up
Such disciplines & punishments, by nature, are things the sub/slave finds difficult, unpleasant, unapealing/etc
In such cases where a sub might know "action A earns you punishment B' and the idea of B is something the sub/slave wants to explore but can't bring him or herself to verbalize, said sub/slave might engage in A to "earn" B, thereby pushing his/her limits

Is this making any sense?
Red, is this the sort of scenario you meant?
 
redelicious said:
His experience was that subs put themselves in situations where they know their limits will be pushed, forcing themselves to overcome fears and therefore gaining control of them.
Click to expand...

My own experience doesn't concur. The sumbissive I have spent most time with had no idea what her limits are, and until she submitted to us, would have simply said "no way" to everything we did with her.

So once she got past that initial "no way" point, she had very little concept of where her real limits lay.

I think for her, submission was very much about self discovery. So in that aspect I would concur. But not as a form of self control.
 
James G 5 said:
The one thing I can think of that fits this criteria might be in more TPE couples thjan scening couples where disciplines and punishments are set up
Such disciplines & punishments, by nature, are things the sub/slave finds difficult, unpleasant, unapealing/etc
In such cases where a sub might know "action A earns you punishment B' and the idea of B is something the sub/slave wants to explore but can't bring him or herself to verbalize, said sub/slave might engage in A to "earn" B, thereby pushing his/her limits

Is this making any sense?
Red, is this the sort of scenario you meant?
Click to expand...

That sounds more like topping from the bottom to me, actually. I think my Dom friend was talking more about the sub who enters into a D/s relationship knowing that her limits are going to be pushed. What's not clear to me is if said sub uses submission for the purpose of pushing those limits, or if they just accept that it happens as a normal part of the relationship. I think he meant the later.
 
redelicious said:
That sounds more like topping from the bottom to me, actually. I think my Dom friend was talking more about the sub who enters into a D/s relationship knowing that her limits are going to be pushed. What's not clear to me is if said sub uses submission for the purpose of pushing those limits, or if they just accept that it happens as a normal part of the relationship. I think he meant the later.
Click to expand...


So like when I enter in to a relationship with someone and she has hard limits, soft limits, and "maybes" and she knows in the course of submission to me I will push the maybes & soft limits, so she's trading her submission for the chance at the experience?
And this, therefore, makes her submission less valid since she's doing it for her own reasons and not for me?
 
James G 5 said:
So like when I enter in to a relationship with someone and she has hard limits, soft limits, and "maybes" and she knows in the course of submission to me I will push the maybes & soft limits, so she's trading her submission for the chance at the experience?
And this, therefore, makes her submission less valid since she's doing it for her own reasons and not for me?
Click to expand...

I was with you until you got to this point:

so she's trading her submission for the chance at the experience?
Click to expand...

I guess that could be the case, and if it were the answer to your second question might be yes, unless she was honest about it from the start (And in that case would that make her more of a bottom then a submissive? Are we discussing semantics now?).

Though, again, I really think that he meant a submissive who understands that conquering certain limits will occur as a result of her submission and gets a sense of accomplishment from it.
 
redelicious said:
I was with you until you got to this point:



I guess that could be the case, and if it were the answer to your second question might be yes, unless she was honest about it from the start (And in that case would that make her more of a bottom then a submissive? Are we discussing semantics now?).

Though, again, I really think that he meant a submissive who understands that conquering certain limits will occur as a result of her submission and gets a sense of accomplishment from it.
Click to expand...

uhm
OK
I think I am totally lost now LOL
Start over again
 
redelicious said:
I had a conversation with a Dom the other day about subs who use submission as a form of control (his terminology). His experience was that subs put themselves in situations where they know their limits will be pushed, forcing themselves to overcome fears and therefore gaining control of them.

Personally I am not sure I would have worded it quite like that, but I do think he has a point. Anyone do this?
Click to expand...

OK..I thought about this particular thread for a while and I must admit that what you posted sounds alot like me. True I do not consider myself submissive, I am a switch and all that the word implies.

I do know that when I enter into a relationship with a Dominant, it is almost as much about me and my limits as it is about them. Is that because I am a switch? I have no idea.

The idea of being with someone stronger than me, that can take me to different places and make me feel different things, is exciting. In some respects it becomes less about the actual *submission* and more about what *I* can take: as a masochist, as a woman, as a switch.

The urge to do it, beat it, break whatever hold a particular fear has over me is strong. Therefore, when I meet the Person who can help me with that, well I go after it (and them) with a single mindedness that is somewhat scary. And afterwards, when I have passed that hurdle...I feel as if I have regained control.

Maybe it's because I am a switch. All I know is that part of why I choose to submit to certain people is because of their ability to help me overcome my next hurdle, my next fear. In the end, it's still about control. At least, it is for me.
 
redelicious said:
I had a conversation with a Dom the other day about subs who use submission as a form of control (his terminology). His experience was that subs put themselves in situations where they know their limits will be pushed, forcing themselves to overcome fears and therefore gaining control of them.

Personally I am not sure I would have worded it quite like that, but I do think he has a point. Anyone do this?
Click to expand...

control is an illusion, but as for being more able to overcome it, i agree.

i tend to just convert fear into strength or anger or both, depending on the circumstances i am in.

-mellian
 
James G 5 said:
uhm
OK
I think I am totally lost now LOL
Start over again
Click to expand...

I think I am too.:confused:

Here is part of the first post, before things started to get all muddled:

. . . subs put themselves in situations where they know their limits will be pushed, forcing themselves to overcome fears and therefore gaining control of them.
Click to expand...

He also said that getting limits pushed can lead to a certain sense of accomplishment for the submissive.

Now, here is my interpretation - I think he is talking about something that occurs naturally as a result of submission, the growth that goes hand in hand with any kind of D/s or T/b relationship. I don't think he meant to say that this is the primary reason subs submit.
 
submissions indeed

As a man, I do take great pride in subduing a
woman in the dark and playing soft music as I
put her mind at ease. So yeah...think it is normal
to use bondage as a means of communicating.
 
redelicious said:
I think I am too.:confused:

Here is part of the first post, before things started to get all muddled:



He also said that getting limits pushed can lead to a certain sense of accomplishment for the submissive.

Now, here is my interpretation - I think he is talking about something that occurs naturally as a result of submission, the growth that goes hand in hand with any kind of D/s or T/b relationship. I don't think he meant to say that this is the primary reason subs submit.
Click to expand...

The light bulb goes on
Maybe he meant it can be a form of, or a way to create, SELF control?
 
Last edited:
Yeah, I read it as a means of self control, but then you confused me. Or rather, not so much as self control but rather of controlling self, through another person.
 
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