Nine Levels Of Submission

Hello A/all, I came across this and showed it to my Dommes's and felt it would be a nice topic to post here....


1. THE OUTRIGHT NON-SUBMISSIVE MASOCHIST or KINKY SENSUALIST.
Not into servitude, humiliation or giving up control; just pain
and/or spiced-up sensuality, on the masochist's own terms and for the
masochist's own direct pleasure (i.e. turned on solely/mainly by
one's own bodily sensations rather than by being "used" to gratify
one's partner's sadism).

2. PSEUDO-SUBMISSIVE NON-SLAVE.
Not into even playing "slave," but into other "submissive" role-
playing, e.g. schoolteacher scenes, infantilism, "forced"
transvestitism. Usually into humiliation, but NOT into servitude,
even in play. Dictates the scene to a large degree.

3. PSEUDO-SUBMISSIVE PLAY SLAVE.
Likes to play at being a slave; likes to feel subservient; may in
some cases like to feel one is being "used" to gratify partner's
sadism; may even really serve the dominant in some ways, but only on
the "slave's" own terms.

4. TRUE SUBMISSIVE NON-SLAVE.
Really gives up control (only temporarily and within agreed-upon
limits), but gets her/his main satisfaction from aspects of
submission other than serving or being used by the dominant. Usually
turned on by suspense, vulnerability, and/or giving up
responsibility. Doesn't dictate the scene except in very general
terms, but still seek mainly her/his own direct/pleasure (rather than
getting one's pleasure mainly from pleasing the dominant).

5. TRUE SUBMISSIVE PLAY SLAVE.
Really gives up control (though only temporarily; only during
brief "scenes" and within limits) and gets main satisfaction from
serving/being used by dominant-but only for FUN purposes, usually
erotic. May/may not be into pain. If so, is turned on by pain
indirectly, i.e. enjoys being the object of one's partner's sadism,
on which the submissive places very few requirements or restrictions.

6. UNCOMMITTED SHORT-TERM BUT MORE THAN PLAY SEMI-SLAVE.
Really gives up control (usually within limits); wants to serve and
be used by the dominant; wants to provide practical/non erotic as
well as fun/erotic services; but only when the "slave" is in the
mood. May even act as a full-time slave for, say, several days at a
time, but is free to quit at any time (or at the end of the agreed
upon several days). May or may not have long-term relationship with
one's Master, but, either way, the "slave" has the final say over
when she will serve.

7. PART-TIME CONSENSUAL-BUT REAL SLAVE.
Has an ongoing commitment to an owner/slave relationship and regards
oneself as the dominant's property at all times. Wants to obey and
please Dom(me) in all aspects of life-practical/non erotic and
fun/erotic. Devotes most of time to other commitments (e.g. job) but
Dom(me) has first pick of the slave's free time.

8. FULL-TIME LIVE IN CONSENSUAL SLAVE.
Within no more than a few broad limits/requirements, the slave
regards herself/himself as existing solely for the Dom(me)'s
pleasure/well being. Slave in turn expects to be regarded as a prized
possession. Not much different from the situation of the traditional
housewife, except that within the S/M world the slave's position is
more likely to be fully consensual, especially if the slave is male.
Within the S/M world, a full time "slave" arrangement is entered into
with an explicit awareness of the magnitude carefully, with more
awareness of the magnitude of power that is being given up, and hence
is usually entered into much more carefully, with more awareness of
the possible dangers, and with much clearer and more specific
agreements than usually precede the traditional marriage.

9. CONSENSUAL TOTAL SLAVE WITH NO LIMITS.
A common fantasy ideal which probably doesn't exist in real life
(except in authoritarian religious cults and other situations where
the "consent" is induced by brainwashing and/or social or economic
pressures, and hence isn't fully consensual). A few S/M purists will
insist that you aren't really a slave unless you're willing to do
absolutely anything for your Dom(me), with no limits at all. I've met
a few people who claimed to be no-limit slaves, but in all cases I
have reason to doubt the claim.

Author Diane Vera copyright 1985 and 1988

As a Dom/me, what level do you expect your submissive/slave to
achieve on this list?, and as a submissive/slave where would you
like to see yourself?



SweetDommes and myself are hoping to achieve somewhere between levels 7 & 8

We agree with your assessment of what we are wanting boy ... We would prefer 8, but it isn't necissary, and with your current job, not possible. And jobs are necessary - life happens, no matter what we would like, people get sick (like I am right now) cars need repairs (like Holly's truck), etc.

Let's give the original author, Diane Vera credit for this often reproduced and often tampered-with piece, whose merits are, in a backhanded way, acknowledged by the hundreds who reproduce it without credit. (I am not necessarily referring to you, Ghosst; I'll assume your good intent; you likely saw it at a website whose owner had 'borrowed' the piece, unacknowledged, perhaps, from another, who 'borrowed' it, etc.)

J.

Pure said:

Let's give the original author, Diane Vera credit for this often reproduced and often tampered-with piece, whose merits are, in a backhanded way, acknowledged by the hundreds who reproduce it without credit. (I am not necessarily referring to you, Ghosst; I'll assume your good intent; you likely saw it at a website whose owner had 'borrowed' the piece, unacknowledged, perhaps, from another, who 'borrowed' it, etc.)

J.

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Actually it's there ... just easy to miss ... you did, we did, but it is indeed there.

I think I am probably between a 7 and 8.

I hold down a full time job - so cannot be fully 8.

8 1/2

I think that you could actually do #8 and hold a job. For example, a sub that works to support a dominant.

Shadowsdream said:

8 1/2

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Some how I am not at all suprised.

May I politely suggest a slight alteration to your signature? It's been bouncing around my head for a couple days.

-Miss Holly

hmm...i think i'm between five and six. perhaps it's the energy of youth, but i have so much that i want to do in my life that i can't put someone else's needs ahead of mine at this point. someday, if i settle down with my own "dom quixote" (thanks Eb for the fab phrase) then i could find myself between seven and eight.

SweetDommes said:

Some how I am not at all suprised.

May I politely suggest a slight alteration to your signature? It's been bouncing around my head for a couple days.

-Miss Holly

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Of course You may.

Shadowsdream said:

Of course You may.

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Just add 2 words - "My Reality makes your Fantasy pale in comparison"

-Miss Karen & Miss Holly-

7. It's a good place for me to be. I don't want to be anywhere else, nor do I think T would want me to be either.

I would place me at about a 5 or 6 right now. Not because i am unwilling to go further...but because the other part of me makes it difficult for me to place anyone's needs before mine for exceedingly long periods of time. I would love to one day achieve 7 or 8, but i think that would require me to give up my boy/girl and that is not an option for me, now.

pet

apet4you said:

I would place me at about a 5 or 6 right now. Not because i am unwilling to go further...but because the other part of me makes it difficult for me to place anyone's needs before mine for exceedingly long periods of time. I would love to one day achieve 7 or 8, but i think that would require me to give up my boy/girl and that is not an option for me, now.

pet

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This is just us, but we have never really had a problem with a boy who wanted a pet of his own, as long as we could be sure that he remembered who he was in charge of and who was in charge of him...

To me, at least, it's kind of the ultimate of domination ... I have a Dominant as a submissive ... my own little conceit, I guess.

-Miss Karen

For me, probably 2. Although, depending on my mood, could be 1 or 3.

With the right woman/women, I could see possibly going to 4 or 5.

P. B. Walker said:

For me, probably 2. Although, depending on my mood, could be 1 or 3.

With the right woman/women, I could see possibly going to 4 or 5.

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*giggles* ... women?? is that a reference to someone *bats her eyes playfully*

-Miss Karen

SweetDommes said:

*giggles* ... women?? is that a reference to someone *bats her eyes playfully*

-Miss Karen

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Most definitely!

P. B. Walker said:

Most definitely!

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And with the right bending of definitions (i.e. what does your Woman/Women define a slave as), would you be perhaps willing to move beyond 5?

it important to mention that the higher numbers are not necessarily advances, nor in any way, better. there is not necessarily 'progress' in going to a higher number. words like 'further' or 'beyond' sometimes suggest such a thing.

think of it like a scale of violence, applied to movies;

or a scale of hot/spiciness (i.e., from peppers) for foods (the hotter dish is not necessarily better; a dish is not necessarily improved by making it hotter);

or a scale of how often a person insists on having things his/her way (assertiveness/bossiness/'controlling');

so a pair in the middle is not necessarily more evolved that a pair at the low numbers, or necessarily less evolved that those at the high numbers.

there is no 'elite' of bdsm folks who are at 9s.

J.

Pure said:

it important to mention that the higher numbers are not necessarily advances, nor in any way, better. there is not necessarily 'progress' in going to a higher number.

think of it like a scale of violence, applied to movies;

or a scale of hot/spiciness (i.e., from peppers) for foods;

or a scale of how often a person insists on having things his/her way (assertiveness/bossiness/'controlling';

so a pair in the middle is not necessarily more evolved that a pair at the low numbers, or necessarily less evolved that those at the high numbers.

there is no 'elite' of bdsm folks who are at 9s.

J.

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I can't speak for anyone else, but Holly and I had never taken it as one level was better than any other ... but we are looking for something around 8 ... so with all of the teasing that I do with PB, if he isn't willing to at least consider moving into the realms that Holly and I are looking for, teasing is all that it will ever be.

-Miss Karen

Pure said:

it important to mention that the higher numbers are not necessarily advances, nor in any way, better. there is not necessarily 'progress' in going to a higher number. words like 'further' or 'beyond' sometimes suggest such a thing.

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A very important remark, imo. I must admit I was a bit intimidated by the sliding scale, especially since the corresponding numbers count up. I guess I am a 3 or 4, or at least try to be...

Pure said:

it important to mention that the higher numbers are not necessarily advances, nor in any way, better. there is not necessarily 'progress' in going to a higher number. words like 'further' or 'beyond' sometimes suggest such a thing.

think of it like a scale of violence, applied to movies;

or a scale of hot/spiciness (i.e., from peppers) for foods (the hotter dish is not necessarily better; a dish is not necessarily improved by making it hotter);

or a scale of how often a person insists on having things his/her way (assertiveness/bossiness/'controlling');

so a pair in the middle is not necessarily more evolved that a pair at the low numbers, or necessarily less evolved that those at the high numbers.

there is no 'elite' of bdsm folks who are at 9s.J.

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This topic was not in any way posted to judge how much of better at BSDM Y/you were, nor was it meant to suggest that level 8 is better than level 4. W/we are a diverse group, and all have our own ideas on what W/we want out of a BSDM relationship, and E/everyone's ideal relationship is different, and it's this diversity that makes this lifestyle great

wolf2002 said:

A very important remark, imo. I must admit I was a bit intimidated by the sliding scale, especially since the corresponding numbers count up. I guess I am a 3 or 4, or at least try to be...

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Knowing our boy, I know that he didn't intend to intimidate anyone with it ... it is simply a scale that Ms. Vera came up with and that ghosstie found intriguing. And to my interpretation, no one who has posted so far has made any of the levels seem lesser than the others, they are simply different. We are all seeking different things, and in a way, this kind of scale would simplify things - i.e. someone who isn't interested in TPE long-term, shouldn't try to hook up with someone who only wants levels 7, 8, or 9.

-Miss Karen

SweetDommes said:

Knowing our boy, I know that he didn't intend to intimidate anyone with it ...

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Don;t worry, I love being intimidated...
Actually I agree the scale is quite useful...