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Old 08-27-2015, 09:31 AM   #1
HurtSubThrowawa
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Safe, SANE & Consensual. Ethics advice please

Hi all,

This looks like a nice community of supportive people, so I have joined to ask for some advice - particularly on Domination ethics, SSC and sub emotional bell-being.

So, the back ground:

27 years ago (age 23) I met and dated one of the 3 most amazing people I would ever meet in my life. Whilst I didn't fully realise it at the time, this woman was a bit of a dominatrix. She would constantly edge me, use CBT and breath control play on me, trained me to give her endless oral (a skill that was really useful in later relationships) restrict me and inflict other wonderful pain during sex. She was 4 years older than me and would occasionally get calls from guys whilst I was at her place (this was before the days of mobile phones or Internet). She would tell them that she was busy and would call them back some other time, then tell me they were just someone she knew. This didn't bother me as she was dating ME.

She also had a whip, cane (and some kinky clothes) in her closet, which she never used on me and said she had "for a joke". At that time I didn't know that I had an interest in BDSM, but she certainly set me up and it is something that I later explored with subsequent partners. Looking back, I was so innocent, but I now wonder if she might even have been a professional dominatrix or working girl (hence the phone calls).

After three months of dating, with amazing sex, and a very close relationship building, she quite suddenly and unexpectedly dropped me. All had been going well, and there was no reason given - except she told her friend that I was "too nice"!?! I was totally heart broken and felt a terrible sense of pain and loss which affected many of my relationships afterwards.

Fast forward to this year (I'm now 50).

I went to see a working girl who offers sexual massage with edging and hand relief (but does not offer full sex).

Just out of coincidence, this girl looks almost the same as my girlfriend from 27 years ago! She also uses many of the same techniques on my cock as that girlfriend (that no one else has since then) and as she could tell I was up for it she added some spanking, CBT and light bondage (which I could tell she really got kick out of) and her personality is even more amazing that that girlfriend! It is as clear she had the makings of a great Dominatrix.

Even ignoring the sexual side of this she is an amazing woman and again one of the 3 most amazing people I would ever meet in my life.

After our second session, I told her she would make a great Dominatrix and she told me that it was an area that excited her and asked me to tell her what I knew about BDSM. A few days later she updated her profile to show that she now offered domination services (clearly written by another of her clients, as her first language isn't English).

The third time we met we discussed BDSM and my interests. I also told her everything about my girl friend of 27 years ago, how much she looked like her, and how hurt I was when it unexpectedly ended. We didn't actually do a scene - I wasn't ready at that point because it takes me time to build up trust. But she did encourage me, and I felt ready that our next session would be a Dom Sub session.

Due to the pain of that relationship 27 years ago, It takes me time to build trust and feel safe with a woman, but as a sub I fully drop my guard & emotional defences, opening myself up. This makes me very exposed (& therefore vulnerable) but allows a much deeper Domination experience. And so, with some email exchanges I opened myself up to her ready for our next session.

Unfortunately, due to work commitments, I had to cancel and move my booking back a couple of days. I was apologetic and Her emails suggested she was OK about it. Then the day before I had to cancel again. I was even more apologetic about it but she replied "It's OK. Don't worry."

As I felt bad about the cancellations, when I went to rebook, I went to the trouble or writing a sincere apology in her native language (initially with Google Translate then several hours of understanding the grammar, context, formally levels, to perfect) in text and email.

But she didn't reply. I assumed she was just busy and sent another booking request 3 days later (in English this time). No reply. I left a voicemail the day after saying I had sent a booking request. No reply (she had previously returned calls quickly).

The shock realisation opened the wound from 27 years ago. It was like the same thing happening again, with a very similar woman and I felt that same pain and sense of loss I felt 27 years ago.

For the first two weeks I felt physical pain in my chest, lost 12lbs in weight and could barely function as a human-being. I had just discovered something really amazing in my life and then lost it.

I didn't know if I had upset her or made her angry. I also didn't get the change to apologise in person or compensate her for the cancelled bookings. It all felt left unfinished.


So, a month later, I have found out through someone else that "she don't like that someone waste her time. She not give another chance for the guys if she feel someone play with her time.

But she NOT ANGRY with you.
She just want to work. if you booking after you change your mind looks you don't now what do you want. she said she don't have time for this.
But she said you are a gentleman."


So I will send her a final email soon. Ideally I want her to let me book her again (which seems unlikely) but more importantly I feel I should point out some ethics to her (if only for the benefit of her subs) and here is where I would appreciate some comments:

On her Domination profile she states that she is a Safe, Sane & Consensual mistress. Under the Sane part of SSC I feel that a Dom has a duty to consider the emotional well-bring of her subs.

I feel that as she knew about how my relationship ending 27 years ago, it was unethical for her to just cut off all communication. I believe she should have told me at the first cancellation that I would be dropped as a client if I cancelled again. Then it wouldn't have been so unexpected and I wouldn't have been so shocked.

Am I wrong in expecting this?

A Dom has a big influence of their subs emotional well-being. Do you think they therefore have a duty to not hurt it even in their actions outside of a scene?

She is new to this, but is it acceptable for a professional Dom/Dominatrix to cut all communication with a sub because they had to cancel (twice in this case)?

If this is unethical, how should I best explain this to her? (This woman does have lots of potential as a good Dominatrix.)

I would welcome any comments (and also support as I am still hurting from this).


TLDR: Dominatrix cut off communication because I cancelled, leaving me emotionally hurt. Is this OK or unethical?
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Old 08-27-2015, 10:00 AM   #2
CutieMouse
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Quote:
On her Domination profile she states that she is a Safe, Sane & Consensual mistress. Under the Sane part of SSC I feel that a Dom has a duty to consider the emotional well-bring of her subs.

I feel that as she knew about how my relationship ending 27 years ago, it was unethical for her to just cut off all communication. I believe she should have told me at the first cancellation that I would be dropped as a client if I cancelled again. Then it wouldn't have been so unexpected and I wouldn't have been so shocked.

Am I wrong in expecting this?

A Dom has a big influence of their subs emotional well-being. Do you think they therefore have a duty to not hurt it even in their actions outside of a scene?

She is new to this, but is it acceptable for a professional Dom/Dominatrix to cut all communication with a sub because they had to cancel (twice in this case)?
It is perfectly acceptable for a professional, who makes her living by providing a service, to refuse service based upon her own professional boundaries.

She obviously has a professional boundary - she refuses to work with clients who repeatedly cancel appointments at the last minute. Women in her line of business are not exactly hurting for clients; she isn't obligated to continue providing a service for someone who can't keep appointments.

Quote:
If this is unethical, how should I best explain this to her? (This woman does have lots of potential as a good Dominatrix.)[
Was it unethical to cancel at the last minute, not once - but twice, thus impacting her income?

Quote:
I would welcome any comments (and also support as I am still hurting from this).


TLDR: Dominatrix cut off communication because I cancelled, leaving me emotionally hurt. Is this OK or unethical?
You are treating this professional relationship (payment for domination) on the same level as a personal relationship (she is required to consider your personal feelings, rather than keep things at a provider/client level). A pro is not obligated to work around your relationship baggage from 27 years ago.

She obviously no longer wants to work with you; don't act like a stalker.
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Old 08-27-2015, 10:15 AM   #3
Cicca_Jai
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I have to agree with cutie mouse below me...
If I were this lady you'd be gone in my book too...
Hell when I babysit, and a family bails on me twice I'm done. Don't bother calling me again. I will have to wash my hair that night and every night that you need me from there on out until kingdom come.

I get that you kinda had a thing for her, she looked like someone you once cared for etc., etc., etc...
But here is a little tough love. That is so NOT her problem.
You need to work on your own issues. A good professional therapist who is knowledgeable about the lifestyle and does not view it as something only seriously jacked up people engage in, and does not believe your lifestyle requires vast amounts of medication and unnecessary discussions is highly recommended.

Also, do not contact her again. Seriously, it's stalker-ish and thus creepy as hell.

Best of luck,
~C~
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Old 08-27-2015, 11:05 AM   #4
HurtSubThrowawa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CutieMouse View Post
It is perfectly acceptable for a professional, who makes her living by providing a service, to refuse service based upon her own professional boundaries.

She obviously has a professional boundary - she refuses to work with clients who repeatedly cancel appointments at the last minute. Women in her line of business are not exactly hurting for clients; she isn't obligated to continue providing a service for someone who can't keep appointments.
Yes, I understand that completely. My issue was with the way she handled it. She replied that she was OK with the cancellations, and then coldly cut off communication when I asked to rebook, leaving me not knowing what was happening. I think she should have replied that I could no longer be a client due to the cancellations. (Or even better, have warned me after the first cancellation).

Quote:
Originally Posted by CutieMouse View Post
Was it unethical to cancel at the last minute, not once - but twice, thus impacting her income?
It certainly wasn't good, but as I mentioned, I wanted to (and feel I still should) compensate her financially for the cancelled bookings, so it wouldn't have impacted her income - except if I don't contact her I can't offer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CutieMouse View Post
You are treating this professional relationship (payment for domination) on the same level as a personal relationship (she is required to consider your personal feelings, rather than keep things at a provider/client level). A pro is not obligated to work around your relationship baggage from 27 years ago.
A very good point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CutieMouse View Post
She obviously no longer wants to work with you; don't act like a stalker.
Yes, it did cross my mind that an email now five weeks after could make me look like a stalker.

Last edited by HurtSubThrowawa : 08-27-2015 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 08-27-2015, 11:25 AM   #5
HurtSubThrowawa
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Originally Posted by Cicca_Jai View Post
You need to work on your own issues.
Yes, whilst I thought I had delt with that pain 27 ago and it was all in the past, this has made me realise that I clearly hadn't delt with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cicca_Jai View Post
Also, do not contact her again. Seriously, it's stalker-ish and thus creepy as hell.

Best of luck,
~C~
I think that is what I'm coming around to.

To get back to my original question; Do you not think that a Dom or Dominatrix has a duty to not hurt a sub emotionally, even in their actions outside of a scene?

Last edited by HurtSubThrowawa : 08-27-2015 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 08-27-2015, 12:01 PM   #6
CutieMouse
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurtSubThrowawa View Post

To get back to my original question; Do you not think that a Dom or Dominatrix has a duty to not hurt a sub emotionally, even in their actions outside of a scene?

It sounds like you were triggered, and until that happened, you didn't even realize how upsetting it would be be to be dropped without any explanation. So if you didn't know ___ action was a trigger, and therefore had not communication that ___ action was a trigger, how was she supposed to A) know it was a trigger and B) anticipate your reaction?

You are coming dangerously close IMO of putting this woman (and dominant types, in general) into "mind reader" territory. Dominant are not mind readers. Shit happens... Especially when one is dealing with emotions and/or mental aspects of D/s.

If I get triggered, it is my responsibility to recognize what is occuring, communicate, then own my own shit.

Now you know what happened is a trigger. Figure out how to communicate that trigger moving forward, to minimize odds of ending up in the same position in the future.

As for her dropping you as a client without explanation - maybe she's inexperienced enough that she didn't know how to handle the situation. Maybe she's a hobbiest, and hasn't worked out her "client rules" yet. Maybe the over-the-top apologizing creeped her out. (If someone spent HOURS translating an apology into my native language, especially after only a handful of meetings, I would be seriously creeped out.)

TL;DR

Dominants are not mind readers.
You learned something about your D/s needs.
This stuff is not one-sided (you both handled things poorly).
Own your own shit.
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Old 08-27-2015, 12:18 PM   #7
Scentofawoman
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I agree with the women above me. Dominant me and women are not mind readers. Maybe more intuitive to body cues, but not actual thoughts.

We go a lot by gut instincts. You were paying her to do these services to you. So then it was a business deal. Yes I agree she might be handling it immaturely to not calling you back and telling you up front reasons.

Also your projecting your perception of what a dominant/dominatrix should be. People always look and underestimate the true depths of my sadism. That's fine with me. But if my gut is telling me I'm getting too deep into something I will back away. I not getting paid this is for pleasure.
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Old 08-29-2015, 11:37 AM   #8
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Much of the same from me.

If I cancelled last minute on my plumber twice, even if he said he was ok with it (cos, you know, people are generally polite in business), I would expect him to not bother with me again.

You've asked whether a Dom(me) should take a sub's headspace into account under the Sane part of SSC. Of course! If they are your Dom(me). If I was going to pay someone to Top me, their domination ends the second the door closes behind me. They would owe me nothing.

It sounds like you had confused your interaction with this working girl with a real D/s relationship - easy enough to do with the depth of feeling you have to build to really submit. Harder than it sounds but if you want the emotional, rather than purely sexual, side of D/s, you need to find yourself a partner, not a paid girl.

Good luck, I hope you find someone amazing!

Oh yeah, and leave the poor kid alone now
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Old 08-29-2015, 08:16 PM   #9
Bramblethorn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurtSubThrowawa View Post
To get back to my original question; Do you not think that a Dom or Dominatrix has a duty to not hurt a sub emotionally, even in their actions outside of a scene?
It's good to aim for, but it depends a lot on the nature of the relationship and on what the dom might be exposing themselves to by "not hurting the sub". A few different takes on it:

#1: From what I've heard, people who do sex work often run into "clients" who get off on the idea of some activity or other but aren't up to the reality. They call up, they make an appointment, perhaps they get their rocks off while they're making the appointment, and then they don't show. People whose business model involves giving sexual gratification for money are understandably unhappy about being given the run-around by people who are looking for gratification without paying for it.

It's possible that she's run into that kind of bullshitter in the past and taken you for another of the same. It sucks if you aren't that kind and she's misjudged you, but she's the one who gets to make that call.

I can understand this would be triggering for you, and you have my sympathy for that, but even if you'd communicated that trigger to her, I don't think that would override her right to leave. If you're paying somebody to be attentive and friendly, it's not a betrayal for them to stop being attentive and friendly when you're not paying them.

Yep, it would have been great if she'd communicated ahead of time that two cancellations = you're gone. But only hindsight is 20/20, especially for somebody who's new to BDSM.

#2: Not to put too fine a point on it, but... plenty of sex workers have been killed and/or harassed by obsessive clients who "fell in love" and assumed a relationship that the SW hadn't agreed to. She may have felt uncomfortable with your projecting a previous relationship onto her and she may have decided that this is more complication than she wants in her job.

If that's the case, she may have decided that breaking off with minimal contact was the safest option. Unfortunately, sometimes when a woman offers an explanation for her choices it just gets taken as an invitation to debate them.

#3: Doms have feelings too. If she did have an interest in the situation beyond "this will help pay my rent", if she was fond of you or if she was excited about getting into BDSM, you may have let her down more than you realise.

Domming is hard work. It requires creative thinking, empathy, processing complicated stuff about when it's OK to be cruel to somebody, etc etc. If I'd been putting in that work in anticipation of a date and then my partner cancelled on me without giving a very good reason, I'd feel slighted. If it happened again soon after, I'd be very hurt and might well give up on them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CutieMouse View Post
You are coming dangerously close IMO of putting this woman (and dominant types, in general) into "mind reader" territory. Dominant are not mind readers. Shit happens... Especially when one is dealing with emotions and/or mental aspects of D/s.
This. God, I'm an Aspie dom and I spend ages trying to figure out what other people are thinking and I STILL get it wrong all too often. Even when I get it right, it's exhausting.

I wish there was more BDSM fiction that showed people bloody talking to one another instead of "I am DomlyDom, I know your desires better than you do!"
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