Two character conversations

I think I saw another thread / post about the way to approach a 2 character conversation in one post (story) or arguably any number of conversations between different characters.

I have just written a 2 character conversation across what is planned to be 2 separate chapters in a multi part story.

It is of course the same conversation (words) in both. Of course this is written in first person POV style. What I learned is pretty neat. With characters in particular it’s not just what they say, but what they think, how they feel as the conversation unfolds.

I guess in trying to do this in one chapter would lose it’s impact - ie who is thinking what and when. The neat thing is too if your design is to illicit a particular reaction from one of the characters it let’s you explain not just the dialog but the thinking from both sides.

If, as I do with mine. You end the conversation with a very charged question, I would assume this draws your readers in more in waiting for the answer given they know not just the conversation but the thoughts and feelings of the 2 characters having it.

This is not a technique I read about but in redrafting a whole story and converting it to first from third person and thus taking a POV approach for each character I think it works.

Of course I have read a lot of very good POV character driven books. But I don’t recall I have seen this approach to handling the same dialog.

Thoughts on the technique and obvious examples I may have missed welcome.

Edit. I should point out the 2 chapters are not identical in content. For both there are activities that they are doing separately but there is 1 day when the conversation overlaps. So reading chapter 4 should come across oh this is new. But then realisation the time both characters timelines and space overlap. So we listen to the same conversation again, the original one but thoughts and feelings from her perspective.

It sets up chapter 5 as a “what next!” As chapter 2 and 4 both end with the same cliff hanger question.

https://www.literotica.com/s/rod-adventures-ch-02

https://www.literotica.com/s/rod-adventures-ch-04

Brutal One

Closest thing I've done to it is the same story from two different first-person POVs:

https://www.literotica.com/beta/s/doll-5
https://www.literotica.com/beta/s/doll-mother

I don't follow what you mean by "two character conversation." Can you provide a link to the story? I don't understand what this is.

SimonDoom said:

I don't follow what you mean by "two character conversation." Can you provide a link to the story? I don't understand what this is.

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I think the OP is saying the first chapter is POV A, the second chapter POV B, each written around the same conversation. In a story telling sense the second chapter would come across as a flashback, from the other person's perspective.

It will be interesting to see how it is received by readers. It will either be received okay, or rejected as being far too clever by half - Brutal One, we need you to report back.

For me I find knowing both characters thoughts and feelings at the same time head hopping and seriously breaks the flow. I read an lovely story third person pov but from the guy's perspective, suddenly mid scene I got excatly what the woman was thinking and feeling for four lines then the story flipped back to the guy.

I read a few more paragraphs and left it as it threw me out the story .

In both deep third person pov and first pov a great writer tells us what the other person is thinking and feeling by the narrator inturrpretting the body language. That brings a story to life. When I'm talking to someone who is pain or sad and I ask, "are you okay?" and they reply, "yes sure," I can tell they are just saying the words out of habit as they clutch their broken arm while wiping their eyes and grimacing between sobs as they speak.

If you have characters who know each other welln the ability of the pov character to read the other is improved plus it allows for conflict if they assume and read the other person wrong

SimonDoom said:

I don't follow what you mean by "two character conversation." Can you provide a link to the story? I don't understand what this is.

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I'm with Simon. You lost me somewhere.

electricblue66 said:

I think the OP is saying the first chapter is POV A, the second chapter POV B, each written around the same conversation. In a story telling sense the second chapter would come across as a flashback, from the other person's perspective.

It will be interesting to see how it is received by readers. It will either be received okay, or rejected as being far too clever by half - Brutal One, we need you to report back.

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Be pleased to if it ever gets published. But it’s chapter 2 and 4 so maybe never see the light of day sadly.

Ginlover said:

For me I find knowing both characters thoughts and feelings at the same time head hopping and seriously breaks the flow. I read an lovely story third person pov but from the guy's perspective, suddenly mid scene I got excatly what the woman was thinking and feeling for four lines then the story flipped back to the guy.

I read a few more paragraphs and left it as it threw me out the story .

In both deep third person pov and first pov a great writer tells us what the other person is thinking and feeling by the narrator inturrpretting the body language. That brings a story to life. When I'm talking to someone who is pain or sad and I ask, "are you okay?" and they reply, "yes sure," I can tell they are just saying the words out of habit as they clutch their broken arm while wiping their eyes and grimacing between sobs as they speak.

If you have characters who know each other welln the ability of the pov character to read the other is improved plus it allows for conflict if they assume and read the other person wrong

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That's the key - head hopping doesn't work if it's too quick - you have to stay in one head (or close in to one character) for a good long time, then clearly demarcate the switch to the other pov and stay with them for a while.

Done well, it's a very powerful technique. Done badly or unknowingly, it's a dead give away of an inexperienced writer - you see it a lot over in the Feedback Forum with writers who are only up to their first few pieces.

electricblue66 said:

I think the OP is saying the first chapter is POV A, the second chapter POV B, each written around the same conversation. In a story telling sense the second chapter would come across as a flashback, from the other person's perspective.

It will be interesting to see how it is received by readers. It will either be received okay, or rejected as being far too clever by half - Brutal One, we need you to report back.

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Correct EB. Will wait and see as the OP discusses trying to do in the one post would maybe lose the impact intended. And not a flash back. The same conversation at the same time but just with the ‘hidden’ elements from each character. The main idea is it allows as its POV and Male and Female characters for the reader to put themselves into that role and consider if they would think and act the same. A tall ask I know. So yes maybe most will think too clever by half.

SimonDoom said:

I don't follow what you mean by "two character conversation." Can you provide a link to the story? I don't understand what this is.

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A two character screen play:

Guy: “Hi ho”
Girl: “Um, hi” (rolling eyes)

Guy: “So, bi?” (Asking eagerly)
Girl: “ Oh no.“ (wanting out of this conversation)

Guy: “ Do me?” (Cluelessly failing to assess her body language)
Girl: “ As if!” (Out of patience)

Guy: “ We ok? (Still trying)
Girl: “ Do go.” (Frustratedly motioning for him to leave)

Guy: “By by”
Girl: “he is an ox.” (muttering to herself)

OK, I think I, maybe, understand what the OP is doing.

My thought is there's no way to give advice without seeing what the OP is doing, through a snippet of the dialogue or a link to a story. It's not the kind of thing for which meaningful advice can be given in the abstract.

I don't have as strong an opposition to "head-hopping" as some. I actually think an erotic scene can work well when the author reveals the thoughts of both characters in the scene. This isn't the way I usually do it, but it's the way I did it in what is by far my most popular story. So readers don't seem to mind, if it's done right. The key is to be clear at all times whose thoughts are being revealed.

A co-worker told me that the second 50 Shades of Grey trilogy is literally the first trilogy(give or take a little) but from Grey's POV. She said after a few chapters she realized she'd bought the same material twice.

If the chapters are spread apart with a lot of events happening in between, it mighty work. If they're close together its going to see redundant even though its seen through the eyes of a different person...but how different can it be to not have the reader feel like they've read the same thing twice?

My personal preference for this would be third person.

Trying to do this in first could work, but might bomb and I guess there's only one way to find out, right?

But my gut reaction to this is there are times when you can be clever, and then times you can out clever yourself.

I'm reminded the of the line from Fight Club...Pitt to Norton "How's that working out for you, being clever?"

Like others I'm interested in hearing what reaction you get.

lovecraft68 said:

A co-worker told me that the second 50 Shades of Grey trilogy is literally the first trilogy(give or take a little) but from Grey's POV. She said after a few chapters she realized she'd bought the same material twice.

If the chapters are spread apart with a lot of events happening in between, it mighty work. If they're close together its going to see redundant even though its seen through the eyes of a different person...but how different can it be to not have the reader feel like they've read the same thing twice?

My personal preference for this would be third person.

Trying to do this in first could work, but might bomb and I guess there's only one way to find out, right?

But my gut reaction to this is there are times when you can be clever, and then times you can out clever yourself.

I'm reminded the of the line from Fight Club...Pitt to Norton "How's that working out for you, being clever?"

Like others I'm interested in hearing what reaction you get.

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Hopefully when the story parts get out it will be clear. It’s just an idea to try and won’t I believe alienate too much. It’s not intended to of course. It could be written in one take but as you will hopefully see there intends to be the two chapters that are linked by the initial meeting and conversation. The reader gets to read what happens to both independently of the meet.

Chapter 1 already sets the expectation for this meeting and the Male characters just brief reference of what it could mean. The meeting is what takes place up to the cliff hanger question. So it’s set up. Actually having checked it’s actually chapter 4 where this conversation is repeated. Chapter 3 we find out more about our female character and what she is looking forward too. Again maybe another thread around how fully fledged your character needs to be in the initial intro. Enough so people can understand what her role is but I think it’s okay to have additional character info in subsequent chapters as long as it’s fairly soon which in this case it is.

Of course appreciate all this will be my first attempt at trying to get one of my oldest story arcs Literotica ready if that makes sense. This section in particular has been very useful just to share and see what great ideas and responses are available. In the short period of time I have been posting in this sub forum there are already some great writers responding that I can see have great talent and wit and are generous too. Those responding here are good examples. In general if I get a few good replies to posts here at least I feel I am sharing and learning. Also helping to understand what I should be considering to write and have published a half decent story series.

Brutal One

AwkwardMD said:

This?

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And this is why Awkward is sometimes wrong in her critique and advice: Her link directs to my story Our Femdom Valentine which I asked her to give input on in her thread in the Story Feedback Forum. (and I appreciate her attempt and effort!) The linked story review in question here is currently rated at 4.8 and has very positive reader comments. Awkward didn't like it — but did like the willingness to try something different.

A couple of comments;
ex.1)Fantastic Saga - very well told, loving and sexy. Loved it sweetie. I don't normally prefer to stay with mini-novellas like this one as they take time but this one I couldn't put down. Just loved it. One question from the VD contest perspective, does my 5 star rating cover it or is there another place to indicate my vote for this for the contest. You get my vote! xoxo,

ex.2) Excellent Story I generally don’t like long stories, but this one had me mesmerized. I felt I was there with them. The only comment I would make is I found your choice of switching voices to be confusing. Switching between the different characters slowed down the flow of the story. It took me a moment each time to figure out who is talking. Other than that it was an awesome story. Five stars out of five.

So, I put this up here to reinforce the fact that asking for advice and input here is not a guarantee that the advice/feedback is going to be very accurate. I'll take the 4.8 score and positive comments from the readers as being much more valid and useful. Some of the comments, like #2 above, did reflect some minor reader confusion — but for the most part, it seems the readers did get the hang of the style and enjoyed the story.

To the OP: I wrote Our Femdom Valentine as an experiment not knowing how it would be received by the readers. I would encourage you to do a couple of things; 1. Follow your own instincts and explore to your hearts content. 2. It's always good to try to find a beta-reader (proofreader) to go over your finished story prior to publication. 3. Listen to, but be wary of, other authors who claim to know the path to light and wisdom. 4. Use the comments and scoring on your published story to inform you of how well you did — and go from there to try to improve your craft. (I have since published a couple more stories honing this non-traditional style and learn something from each one.)

Example from my story Arc

Here are the 2 links from my story Arc Rod Adventures. The chapter four just got published today.

https://www.literotica.com/s/rod-adventures-ch-02

https://www.literotica.com/s/rod-adventures-ch-04

I am satisfied by the way this has worked out. One feedback has been the length of chapters but because the short intro chapter one was initially rejected I split it into smaller sections.

Also there was a comment re flashback but as I use the date and location where the events occur I think it is clear.

In this example readers have already ‘heard’ the conversation but now they get to understand how Michelle was thinking so I think having this in separate posts works. It was useful too to have the intervening short chapter 3 to not have it as an immediate follow on from chapter 2 so the reader’s focus has moved on and now they can see “oh that was what Michelle was thinking” in particular as it’s the first conversation between the 2 key characters in the entire arc.

Brutal One

electricblue66 said:

That's the key - head hopping doesn't work if it's too quick - you have to stay in one head (or close in to one character) for a good long time, then clearly demarcate the switch to the other pov and stay with them for a while.

Done well, it's a very powerful technique. Done badly or unknowingly, it's a dead give away of an inexperienced writer - you see it a lot over in the Feedback Forum with writers who are only up to their first few pieces.

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While I agree with with your point for the most part, I also think that this falls into a category of what I think of as knee-jerk reactions among author critiques. There are certain things that authors here have read over and over again that they shouldn't do, "head hopping," being one of them. I think there's a tendency to see such things as a bad thing no matter how well it's done. Repetition is another example of this. There was a thread recently that had excellent examples of the use of repetition as a powerful technique. I am positive that if those same examples were in a story on the Feedback board, the repetition would be criticized. Short sentences with unvaried structure are another example. I wouldn't want to read a whole story of them, but I think there are times when it's very effective in establishing tempo, especially when cranking up anxiety. Sentence fragments is another example of a conventional no-no that can be used purposefully and effectively.

It's clear that switching POVs doesn't work at all for some people. Gin Lover's comment makes me think she doesn't like any switching at all, and there are probably plenty of readers who feel the same way. Gin Lover will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that when readers/writers don't care for any switches in POV, it's probably because they like to settle down behind the eyes of the character from whose perspective the story is being told, almost like first-person narration, but with some of the perks that go along with third-person. That doesn't mean it can't be done effectively and enjoyably for most readers, and it doesn't mean it's "wrong." I see it as a preference that's akin to first-person/third-person preferences. There are plenty of people who won't even read a story in first-person, but there are others would read nothing but first-person narrated stories if there were enough of them to compose a steady diet.

Sometimes I see criticisms on the Feedback board about "head hopping" being confusing as to who's speaking/thinking, and I read the author's submission and find that it's perfectly clear. If it wasn't clear to the reviewer, it's because the reviewer wasn't paying very close attention. Of course, if an author reading another author's work critically isn't paying close enough attention, that's surely going to be a stumbling block for plenty of readers. It's hard to know how big of an impediment it really is, though, because reading a story while critically reviewing it is not the same as reading a story for enjoyment. I think sometimes that reviewing authors get lost in the sentences sometimes, instead of getting lost in the story - sort of losing the forest in the trees.

Many of my favorite stories use frequent, fluid switches in POV. One thing I think is not often considered on the Feedback board is that using third-person omniscient narration allows you to choose how deeply you commit to a POV. If someone is getting very deep into internal dialog, or is using direct descriptions of character's thoughts ("Sally was cold and lonely, and just wanted to go home."), I think think it can be much more jarring to switch POVs than if done other ways. Personally, I would avoid the direct descriptions of a character's thoughts in favor of having the character express them or demonstrate them, and I would usually - but not always - isolate internal dialog from external dialog. I think the result is a much lighter commitment to POV that allows effective POV transitions in ways that are less feasible with a deeper POV commitment.

I think the feedback on the story feedback board is incredibly helpful and shouldn't be ignored. The feedback itself needs to be analyzed, though. One way of looking at it is that if an author sees something as a problem, a reader will, too. On the other hand, an author reviewing critically is looking for flaws (appropriately so), and what the reviewing author sees as flaws may fall into the knee-jerk category. The "flaws" may be techniques that are used effectively and which would not bother a non-critical reader at all.

The knee-jerk reaction is because so many new authors do these things without awareness.

Repetition is something that readers will be aware of, and can be used to great effect. Just last night I was reading a passage from Dracula where Jonathan Harker is being driven to the castle: "It grew colder and colder still ... The baying of the wolves sounded nearer and nearer ..." Then also it can be used with the Rule of Three. ~ googles for examples ~ Huh. Interesting: https://publicwords.com/2015/02/12/martin-luther-king-and-the-rule-of-three/

Head hopping can be a dizzying experience for readers if done badly. Especially when there is a clearly defined POV and the author suddenly starts hopping. I generally advise section breaks, but it can be done well without.

I am not sure (unless I misunderstand) that my 2 character counts as ‘head hopping’ as it is the same conversation. I guess because I wrote it when I read it it seems to be okay. I guess it is an example of repetition but no bad thing arguably so early in the story and with a focus on a conversation that really becomes central to these two characters in particular which is seen relatively soon.

I wouldn't expect in this example that it would confuse the reader at all.

Brutal One

electricblue66 said:

That's the key - head hopping doesn't work if it's too quick - you have to stay in one head (or close in to one character) for a good long time, then clearly demarcate the switch to the other pov and stay with them for a while.

.

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My most popular story is a short head-hopping story, a mom-son story told in third person omniscient. The story consists of just a single scene, so there would be no way to switch from his head to hers in the usual way after a scene break. I wanted to convey how both characters were drawn, almost against their will, toward intimacy. The story jumps from his point of view to hers and back, constantly. I established the head hopping early on so the reader would become accustomed to it. I think it's pretty clear at all times who is thinking.

I don't think it's great art, by any means, but I think it works for this story. It might annoy some sticklers on this kind of thing but it seems to have done fine with most readers.

When writing in third person most of the time I stick with one person's point of view throughout the story or at least through a scene. Usually it's most satisfying that way because the reader identifies with the character focused on.


But I think anything CAN be done if it's done in a way that is clear to the reader.

Brutal_One said:

I am not sure (unless I misunderstand) that my 2 character counts as ‘head hopping’ as it is the same conversation. I guess because I wrote it when I read it it seems to be okay. I guess it is an example of repetition but no bad thing arguably so early in the story and with a focus on a conversation that really becomes central to these two characters in particular which is seen relatively soon.

I wouldn't expect in this example that it would confuse the reader at all.

Brutal One

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No, what it sounds like your doing is a full POV shift a he said/she said of the same event.

head hopping, at least the way I use the term, is two people in the same scene with most of the focus from one person's thoughts, but shifting over to what another character is thinking.

What I mean is say I've been writing from "Nick" pov...Nick says this while doing something, Nick has internal thoughts about what "mary" just said, but for now Nick is he head the reader is in and is reaction to Mary in that manner.

if you shift from Mary did said, and start going with Mary said, and adding 'what was Nick on about now, she wondered. You just head hopped, now you're getting some Mary POV.

Hopefully I'm explaining that right. I just write and everything goes the way it goes, I'm not like others here who can go into long details about writing styles and this and that.

What I do try to do is cut through the occasional pretentious look how smart I want to look, and try to just simplify things. Because I'm a simple sort myself(fill in insults here)

Enchantment_of_Nyx said:

I think the feedback on the story feedback board is incredibly helpful and shouldn't be ignored. The feedback itself needs to be analyzed, though. One way of looking at it is that if an author sees something as a problem, a reader will, too. On the other hand, an author reviewing critically is looking for flaws (appropriately so), and what the reviewing author sees as flaws may fall into the knee-jerk category. The "flaws" may be techniques that are used effectively and which would not bother a non-critical reader at all.

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The key word in my original comment is "unknowingly." It's so very common, and in most cases, clearly accidental or unknowing - which is why nearly every writer here points it out. It's such an easy thing to fix - or to clearly signify to the reader so the cues are all there. I think most writers bring their stories to this Forum because they want to get the best tools in their toolbox - and knowing the "rules" or "conventions" gives writers the courage to break them. And that, in my view, is when good writing lifts itself up a notch.

I'm highly tuned to it because one of my own stories triggered quite a debate between those who say changing point of view in a story is the World's Most Evil Thing, Never Do It, and those who say, don't be silly, it's perfectly legitimate and, done well, very effective. I'd used a very close omniscient third person narrator, with episodes (long and clearly signified) alternating between the two protagonists.

One of my best ever bits of feedback summed it all up:

I've always been partial to first person narration for conveying the intimate details of a character's inner life. But this story wonderfully shows how third person narration can be used to convey the inner activity of two characters, even during the intricate steps of their dance. We see the evening not as we would see it in real life---where we know our own feelings but can only guess at our partner's---but privy to both sides, able to see the uncertainty and hopefulness and playfulness and arousal on both sides as flirtation turns to courtship and courtship turns to foreplay. It's two intimate stories, really, interwoven at every scene. A tour-de-force of patient, loving, doubly imagined detail.

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lovecraft68 said:

No, what it sounds like your doing is a full POV shift a he said/she said of the same event.

head hopping, at least the way I use the term, is two people in the same scene with most of the focus from one person's thoughts, but shifting over to what another character is thinking.

What I mean is say I've been writing from "Nick" pov...Nick says this while doing something, Nick has internal thoughts about what "mary" just said, but for now Nick is he head the reader is in and is reaction to Mary in that manner.

if you shift from Mary did said, and start going with Mary said, and adding 'what was Nick on about now, she wondered. You just head hopped, now you're getting some Mary POV.

Hopefully I'm explaining that right. I just write and everything goes the way it goes, I'm not like others here who can go into long details about writing styles and this and that.

What I do try to do is cut through the occasional pretentious look how smart I want to look, and try to just simplify things. Because I'm a simple sort myself(fill in insults here)

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Ouch. I'm not trying to be pretentious. Perhaps I circle my point too much.

Enchantment_of_Nyx said:

Perhaps I circle my point too much.

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What a pretty eye that would make...

Enchantment_of_Nyx said:

Ouch. I'm not trying to be pretentious. Perhaps I circle my point too much.

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Wasn't talking about you. It was more of a generalization of the forum as a whole, more than this particular thread or posters within it.

I've said it many times here, and in every other aspect of my life.

years ago Nike created the simplest, but most powerful slogan in advertising that says it all

Just do it.

That coupled with my father's mantra of "Don't talk about it, do it" has become my method of getting better at anything

I swear its so simple that people want to complicate it.