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Old 11-14-2017, 06:44 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by rjordan View Post
Yes, that's the whole point. It doesn't mean what most readers and writers think it means. It's a precise measurement of nothing. "I liked it" on a scale of 0 to 5 to three significant digits!

The whole thing reminds me of the voting on tunes on American Bandstand in the 50's.
Kid #1: "It had a great beat and you can dance to it."
Kid #2: "I like the way my poodle skirt twirls when I dance to it."

Everyone assigns the same numbering system to entirely different parameters.

Anyway, enough of that. My interest in the subject wasn't to see it eliminated. A lot of people enjoy it, and it's easy enough to ignore or shut off.

I agree with you and Bramblethorn that deleting the Red H would help. It removes some of the built-in bias towards stories that tend to score high making them score even higher (definitely a positive feedback loop).

As Bramble points out, it would be a very easy fix. Replace the H image with an image of a single white pixel. Done.

Ha ha. Done. Right. I can hear the screaming now as the listings go black and blue...

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If you want to remove the perception that a high-score has a bias then the best thing would be to hide the ratings and the H for 30 days. No one knows what it scores until after the 30 days from published date has run so all a reader has to go on is the fact that a story is "new" or not. This is what a real life author has to face - no info for at least 30 days (sometimes 60) so it wouldn't be uncommon.

This might weed out the 1-bombs and trolling. It might not so sweep frequencies may have to be increased. Or take away anonymous voting. Authors don't need to know who voted, just the mods/Laurel/Manu to get rid of the trolls. X number of 1-bombs or ridiculously high voting frequency in a short period of time and that account is closed permanently.

Latecomers would get the benefit of all the earlier risk takers but shouldn't be allowed to vote. Views, feedback and comments yes, but no votes. Thus, after 30 days, that's the score the story has for eternity.

I actually like the H because it's like a merit based gold star. I try hard to write well and make the stories interesting. That someone recognized that kind of expenditure of effort and wrote code to give an "award" for it means something. What, exactly, it does mean I don't know, but it IS something more than "meh" or "thanks for contributing". A high rating score doesn't give that extra kick that the H does either. If you want the H you have to write something that earns it. Not so easy to do and for some it's a prize like a brass ring on a merry-go-round.

Has Laurel ever given out an E?
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Old 11-14-2017, 07:15 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by rae121452 View Post
another simple solution would be to employ the "favorites" function. get rid of the whole voting process and instead, after a story is "favorited" a certain number of times it would get the red h.
Favoriting is still be used just to mark stories for future read. It doesn't have a solid connection to stories being highlighted as special reads.
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Old 11-14-2017, 07:31 PM   #53
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Favoriting is still be used just to mark stories for future read. It doesn't have a solid connection to stories being highlighted as special reads.
And being manipulated worse than voting.
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Old 11-14-2017, 08:25 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by rae121452 View Post
another simple solution would be to employ the "favorites" function. get rid of the whole voting process and instead, after a story is "favorited" a certain number of times it would get the red h.
That's going to HEAVILY favour categories that get lots of eyeballs, like Incest, at the expense of less-read cats.
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Old 11-14-2017, 08:35 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by rjordan View Post
I agree with you and Bramblethorn that deleting the Red H would help. It removes some of the built-in bias towards stories that tend to score high making them score even higher (definitely a positive feedback loop).
Clarification - I don't have any strong feelings about deleting or keeping the 'H', I was just commenting that it'd be easy to do.

My preferred option would be to give people more options to custom-filter stories, including the ability to set whatever score thresholds they like.
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Old 11-14-2017, 09:15 PM   #56
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Removing the red H would make sense only if one could search for stories above a specific score. But Lit doesn't let you do that. Without this change getting rid of red Hs would take away too much information that readers like.
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Old 11-14-2017, 10:55 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by SimonDoom View Post
Removing the red H would make sense only if one could search for stories above a specific score. But Lit doesn't let you do that. Without this change getting rid of red Hs would take away too much information that readers like.
The point being, though, with the hard 4.5 mark, the reader isn't really getting what they think they are. They are getting what is being manipulated for them to think is there.

But this gets really tiresome. The Web site owners aren't listening. They don't care.
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Old 11-15-2017, 02:13 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by SimonDoom View Post
Removing the red H would make sense only if one could search for stories above a specific score. But Lit doesn't let you do that. Without this change getting rid of red Hs would take away too much information that readers like.
With the Advanced search, You can filter stories on being 'Editor's Choice', 'Contest Winners' and 'Hot'. As such, the 'Hot' status does have an influence on search results.

In addition, you can sort stories on (among other options) 'Vote Score' and 'Number of Comments'
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Old 11-15-2017, 07:24 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by rae121452 View Post
another simple solution would be to employ the "favorites" function. get rid of the whole voting process and instead, after a story is "favorited" a certain number of times it would get the red h.
This would not work, the reason being that some categories of stories get a lot more views, and therefore a lot more favorites, while other categories don't. The result of this process would be that some categories, like incest, which gets huge numbers of views, would have lots of mediocre stories with red Hs while other categories would have very few stories with red Hs.
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Old 11-15-2017, 07:28 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by RubenR View Post
With the Advanced search, You can filter stories on being 'Editor's Choice', 'Contest Winners' and 'Hot'. As such, the 'Hot' status does have an influence on search results.

In addition, you can sort stories on (among other options) 'Vote Score' and 'Number of Comments'
I know that. And this is precisely why you can't get rid of the red H system unless you replace it with a system where readers can search for stories by score. If you don't do this, readers can't search for stories that they think are good. This significantly impairs the ability of readers to find stories they like.

Something we as authors need to keep in mind is that the readers outnumber us by a lot and are more important to this site than we are. It makes no sense whatsoever, from the site's point of view, to make things nicer or more pleasant for us authors by removing features that enable readers to maximize their use and enjoyment of this site.
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Old 11-15-2017, 07:31 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by SimonDoom View Post
This would not work, the reason being that some categories of stories get a lot more views, and therefore a lot more favorites, while other categories don't. The result of this process would be that some categories, like incest, which gets huge numbers of views, would have lots of mediocre stories with red Hs while other categories would have very few stories with red Hs.
Proof of this happening is easy to verify. Look at the top 250 most favorite stories. Roughly 90% of them are incest. But then again, this list is being manipulated as much as the top favorite authors list.
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Old 11-15-2017, 07:34 PM   #62
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The point being, though, with the hard 4.5 mark, the reader isn't really getting what they think they are. They are getting what is being manipulated for them to think is there.

But this gets really tiresome. The Web site owners aren't listening. They don't care.

I agree with this somewhat, but I can say that as a reader I would be irked if the site deprived me of the ability to search for stories that have a red H. A red H is a highly imperfect proxy for quality, but it's much more than nothing. If you take a significant sample of 4.7 stories and a significant sample of 4.2 stories, the average quality of 4.7 stories will be higher. You may disagree with that assessment, but I can say confidently that having read stories here for 12 years or more it fits my assessment, and I would not want to be deprived of the ability to search for stories on terms that I think will yield the stories I want.

The alternative would be to get rid of the somewhat arbitrary 4.5/red H system and replace it with a system that enables readers to search for stories by whatever score parameters they choose. Ideally the site should have this function.

You've been wading through these dead-end debates a lot longer than I have, so I understand if it's tiresome. I'm still learning things here so it's still interesting to me.
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Old 11-15-2017, 07:35 PM   #63
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Proof of this happening is easy to verify. Look at the top 250 most favorite stories. Roughly 90% of them are incest. But then again, this list is being manipulated as much as the top favorite authors list.
I'm curious what "manipulation" means. I've seen that charge made before and I'm naive/ignorant enough not to understand what it implies.
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Old 11-15-2017, 07:50 PM   #64
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Something we as authors need to keep in mind is that the readers outnumber us by a lot and are more important to this site than we are. It makes no sense whatsoever, from the site's point of view, to make things nicer or more pleasant for us authors by removing features that enable readers to maximize their use and enjoyment of this site.
Not forgetting that a lot of readers here are VERY smart people. To start with they can read. LOL. Just joking with that one, but I never cease to be amazed at the backgrounds of readers that email me. I chat with a lot of them offline now and honestly, if I was here to make connections! Wow! They know there way round and they might not be too interested in the ratings and views that we are, but they know how to find the stories they like.
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Old 11-15-2017, 07:52 PM   #65
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Proof of this happening is easy to verify. Look at the top 250 most favorite stories. Roughly 90% of them are incest. But then again, this list is being manipulated as much as the top favorite authors list.
Can someone enlighten me how the gamers who are 'manipulating' the top positions mobilise the sheer number of votes needed to move the stories around, against the massive inertia of the tens of thousands of Lit readers who just merrily go about their business, voting roughly one in every hundred views on the thousands of new stories?

I know the comps (used to? maybe not so much now, who knows) bring out the writer blocks (I'll vote up your story if you vote up mine, and we'll both vote down his); but isn't that just futzing with the tiny percentage of stories that are in the comps?

In any kind of trend analysis, extremes and out-riders like the top lists and the comp entries are surely the ones to disregard, with the far greater smoothing effects of the great unwashed masses voting in their thousands, on thousands of stories, being the ones who are in fact defining what a Red H indicates.

Maybe I'm just a fan of the idea that, if enough people regularly follow a behaviour, the indicators of that behaviour mean something (even if there is no consensus what that something is).
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Old 11-15-2017, 09:39 PM   #66
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I'm curious what "manipulation" means. I've seen that charge made before and I'm naive/ignorant enough not to understand what it implies.
I've been watching several people on the favorites lists for a good number of years. One of which hasn't posted a story in going on five years but gets just enough favorites everyday to stay exactly 50 favorites above the guy below him who has posted dozens of stories. I'm talking top 10 of the favorites list. The same thing happens on this persons top favorited stories.

Funny thing is, the same number of favorites show up on the guys above and below me. Yes, i pissed this person off ten years ago. Also the same number of favorites show up on all of the up and coming Incest authors and stories.

Also he has accidentally put me on the wrong card a time or two. By doing some checking, I found that this Alt and others had dozens of friends with the same name but different numbers, some ranging upwards of 500+. All it takes is a throwaway e-mail address and some time. Writing a script to do the tedious part wouldn't be hard for that matter.

And yes, this information has been sent to the powers that be. Result? They can't see it even though they have complete access to the whole data base.

Funny what you notice if you know where to look and have a fairly good memory for numbers and trends.
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Old 11-15-2017, 09:49 PM   #67
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This would not work, the reason being that some categories of stories get a lot more views, and therefore a lot more favorites, while other categories don't. The result of this process would be that some categories, like incest, which gets huge numbers of views, would have lots of mediocre stories with red Hs while other categories would have very few stories with red Hs.
Also (should've thought of this earlier) it favours older stories, and it becomes self-perpetuating: more faves = higher ranking = more views = more faves... so new stories are unlikely to break into the top positions, no matter how good they are.

Voting and recommendation systems are hard, even if you don't have to worry about deliberate gaming.
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Old 11-15-2017, 10:17 PM   #68
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I've been watching several people on the favorites lists for a good number of years. One of which hasn't posted a story in going on five years but gets just enough favorites everyday to stay exactly 50 favorites above the guy below him who has posted dozens of stories. I'm talking top 10 of the favorites list. The same thing happens on this persons top favorited stories.
Interesting, thanks. What intrigues me is why the effort? - unless the high rankings are steering readers off-site where there are dollars involved. But if not that, what's the point?
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Old 11-15-2017, 10:20 PM   #69
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Interesting, thanks. What intrigues me is why the effort? - unless the high rankings are steering readers off-site where there are dollars involved. But if not that, what's the point?
From past history, stroking their own ego and disruption of anything and everything they can.
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Old 11-15-2017, 10:22 PM   #70
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From past history, stroking their own ego and disruption of anything and everything they can.
Some people and their lives, huh? If I cared, I'd worry for them...
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Old 11-15-2017, 10:23 PM   #71
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I've been watching several people on the favorites lists for a good number of years. One of which hasn't posted a story in going on five years but gets just enough favorites everyday to stay exactly 50 favorites above the guy below him who has posted dozens of stories. I'm talking top 10 of the favorites list. The same thing happens on this persons top favorited stories.

Funny thing is, the same number of favorites show up on the guys above and below me. Yes, i pissed this person off ten years ago. Also the same number of favorites show up on all of the up and coming Incest authors and stories.

Also he has accidentally put me on the wrong card a time or two. By doing some checking, I found that this Alt and others had dozens of friends with the same name but different numbers, some ranging upwards of 500+. All it takes is a throwaway e-mail address and some time. Writing a script to do the tedious part wouldn't be hard for that matter.

And yes, this information has been sent to the powers that be. Result? They can't see it even though they have complete access to the whole data base.

Funny what you notice if you know where to look and have a fairly good memory for numbers and trends.
What makes my mind reel is that anyone would go to such trouble to manipulate something so . . . inconsequential. It takes a special kind of pettiness to do that.
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Old 11-15-2017, 10:23 PM   #72
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Interesting, thanks. What intrigues me is why the effort? - unless the high rankings are steering readers off-site where there are dollars involved. But if not that, what's the point?
Great minds . . .
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Old 11-15-2017, 10:29 PM   #73
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Great minds . . .
Before anyone else chimes in... also fools.

Carry on!
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:38 AM   #74
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Some people and their lives, huh? If I cared, I'd worry for them...
Well we had that discussion before and yes, in one category at least it's very obvious someone has figured out how to game the ratings successfully. Quite fascinating. They really do stroke their own egos. I half suspect they write a lot of their own comments because the wording is so similar. All their scores are consistently high for what is fairly mediocre writing.

That said, I only care about it when someone games the ratings in competitions and uses it to take other authors down. Gaming your own score is just masturbating publicly, it's only yourself your fooling. In competitions, it's cheating and when you target other authors stories, it's worse than that. I think Literotica does owe it to its authors to police the competitions rather better but so far, no dice.
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:46 AM   #75
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What makes my mind reel is that anyone would go to such trouble to manipulate something so . . . inconsequential. It takes a special kind of pettiness to do that.
I don't know, considering how much time, effort, and space gets devoted on the forum to story comments and ratings and how to get more and better ones.
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