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Old 11-05-2017, 05:31 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by SamScribble View Post
My memory may be playing tricks, Blue, but I think I recall young Mr Shandy discoursing at length on sexual behaviour - although perhaps with rather more waffle than would be appreciated by a reader seeking stroke material.
The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy, Gentleman (or Tristram Shandy) by Laurence Sterne. It was first published in 1759 and what's even more scary if I have a copy somewhere that I haven't looked at in years. Along with a few others like "Pamela, or Virtue Rewarded". I have no idea what I was thinking when I picked them up....
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Old 11-05-2017, 05:57 PM   #27
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Can you give an example or two? I'm not clear exactly what narrative technique you are referring to. An example would help.

It's not something I've done, or plan to do. I like to keep POV clear and simple, and free of distractions.

One of the greatest works in American fiction, Huckleberry Finn, does this, to some degree. The opening line addresses the reader: "You don't know me . . . " It worked O.K. in that case.
You can check "The Third Ring" link in my sig. That's one way of doing it.

You might take The Autobiography of a Flea as another example. It's classic erotica. It was done as a movie in the '70's, and the movie is on some lists of "Best Classic Porn."

I think to do it right the story has to be constructed to use it. You probably can't have a good effect if the narrator starts talking to the reader out of the blue. It wouldn't be possible to post a couple paragraphs here and get the idea across.
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Old 11-05-2017, 08:46 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonDoom View Post
Can you give an example or two? I'm not clear exactly what narrative technique you are referring to. An example would help.

It's not something I've done, or plan to do. I like to keep POV clear and simple, and free of distractions.

One of the greatest works in American fiction, Huckleberry Finn, does this, to some degree. The opening line addresses the reader: "You don't know me . . . " It worked O.K. in that case.
I did in post #4.
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Old 11-05-2017, 10:05 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by SamScribble View Post
My memory may be playing tricks, Blue, but I think I recall young Mr Shandy discoursing at length on sexual behaviour - although perhaps with rather more waffle than would be appreciated by a reader seeking stroke material.
Yes, the waffle extends to the point where you forget what the hell he's on about! I just remember the scene where his father remembers the clock needs winding - clockus interruptus...
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Old 11-06-2017, 07:08 AM   #30
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I did in post #4.
I did (after an edit) in post #13.
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It's like [oggbashan] is writing for the third puffin over there by the sixth rock, when everyone else is an emperor penguin in the Antarctic, where there's tens of thousands of the bastards.

“The inimitable stories of Tong-King never have any real ending, and this one, being in his most elevated style, has even less end than most of them. But the whole narrative is permeated with the odour of joss-sticks and honourable high-mindedness, and the two characters are both of noble birth.”
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Old 11-06-2017, 08:04 AM   #31
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I think from memory that Henry Fielding did it in Tom Jones, particularly in the chapter headings. It was used to much better effect (I think) in the film by the narrator.

Kipling used it at the beginnings of his 'Just So' children's stories though his comments were addressed to his 'best beloved ' rather than the general audience. Originally the stories were written for his daughter so I suppose she was his 'best beloved' but as she was never identified any child could take that role.
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Old 11-06-2017, 08:15 AM   #32
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...

Kipling used it at the beginnings of his 'Just So' children's stories though his comments were addressed to his 'best beloved ' rather than the general audience. Originally the stories were written for his daughter so I suppose she was his 'best beloved' but as she was never identified any child could take that role.
And I parodied Kipling's Just So Stories:

https://www.literotica.com/s/just-so-elephant
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electricblue66:
It's like [oggbashan] is writing for the third puffin over there by the sixth rock, when everyone else is an emperor penguin in the Antarctic, where there's tens of thousands of the bastards.

“The inimitable stories of Tong-King never have any real ending, and this one, being in his most elevated style, has even less end than most of them. But the whole narrative is permeated with the odour of joss-sticks and honourable high-mindedness, and the two characters are both of noble birth.”
― Ernest Bramah, Wallet of Kai Lung
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Old 11-06-2017, 08:31 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by ishtat View Post
I think from memory that Henry Fielding did it in Tom Jones, particularly in the chapter headings. It was used to much better effect (I think) in the film by the narrator.

Kipling used it at the beginnings of his 'Just So' children's stories though his comments were addressed to his 'best beloved ' rather than the general audience. Originally the stories were written for his daughter so I suppose she was his 'best beloved' but as she was never identified any child could take that role.
Shakespeare does it now and again. Richard III turns to the audience and explains his plots so they know what's coming, and some plays have a chorus that tells us how it's going to end.
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Old 11-06-2017, 01:03 PM   #34
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I've never written a story in the second person, and don't know if I could. But there are plenty of instances where I've addressed the audience. Phrases like:

"You know how hard it is to get a parking space at the mall on Christmas Eve..."

"She was the sort of person who wouldn't take no for an answer, and hounded you until she got what she wanted. You've probably met the type."

And so on. I try to get the effect of the narrator using the sort of non-specific "you" the way he would in conversation. It seems to work for me.
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Old 11-06-2017, 01:54 PM   #35
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Addressing the audience isn't second person. (This notion crept in higher up the line in the discussion.) It's first person. Second person is being completely in the mind and perception of the "You," not simply using the word "you." Addressing the audience isn't even remotely similar to second person.
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Old 11-06-2017, 02:10 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by sr71plt View Post
Addressing the audience isn't second person. (This notion crept in higher up the line in the discussion.) It's first person. Second person is being completely in the mind and perception of the "You," not simply using the word "you." Addressing the audience isn't even remotely similar to second person.
I have to get my head around all these different pov's and tenses. Just a general question and don't waste your time if you have no idea but is there a good book that covers all of this. I only ever did English at High School and it never got into this sort of detail.
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Old 11-06-2017, 02:17 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChloeTzang View Post
I have to get my head around all these different pov's and tenses. Just a general question and don't waste your time if you have no idea but is there a good book that covers all of this. I only ever did English at High School and it never got into this sort of detail.
http://www.writersworkshop.co.uk/Poi...inFiction.html

http://thewritepractice.com/point-of-view-guide/

First person point of view. First person is when “I” am telling the story. The character is in the story, relating his or her experiences directly.

Second person point of view. The story is told to “you.” This POV is not common in fiction, but it’s still good to know (it is common in nonfiction).

Third person point of view, limited. The story is about “he” or “she.” This is the most common point of view in commercial fiction. The narrator is outside of the story and relating the experiences of a character.

Third person point of view, omniscient. The story is still about “he” or “she,” but the narrator has full access to the thoughts and experiences of all characters in the story.
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electricblue66:
It's like [oggbashan] is writing for the third puffin over there by the sixth rock, when everyone else is an emperor penguin in the Antarctic, where there's tens of thousands of the bastards.

“The inimitable stories of Tong-King never have any real ending, and this one, being in his most elevated style, has even less end than most of them. But the whole narrative is permeated with the odour of joss-sticks and honourable high-mindedness, and the two characters are both of noble birth.”
― Ernest Bramah, Wallet of Kai Lung
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Old 11-06-2017, 02:27 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by ChloeTzang View Post
I have to get my head around all these different pov's and tenses. Just a general question and don't waste your time if you have no idea but is there a good book that covers all of this. I only ever did English at High School and it never got into this sort of detail.
True second person POV is very unusual and comes across as strange. The best example I know is Jay McInerny's Bright Lights, Big City. The opening is "You are not the kind of guy who would be at a place like this at this time of the morning. But here you are, and you cannot say that the terrain is entirely unfamiliar." The entire novel is like that. There is no "I" narrator. The pronoun "you" is used throughout. McInerny was a young aspiring writer trying to make a splash, so he did something different.

If the novel is told by an "I" but occasionally refers to "you", it's in first person, because the narrator is the I. But in the second person there is no "I". The POV is from the "you" perspective.
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Old 11-06-2017, 02:30 PM   #39
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You can check "The Third Ring" link in my sig. That's one way of doing it.

You might take The Autobiography of a Flea as another example. It's classic erotica. It was done as a movie in the '70's, and the movie is on some lists of "Best Classic Porn."

I think to do it right the story has to be constructed to use it. You probably can't have a good effect if the narrator starts talking to the reader out of the blue. It wouldn't be possible to post a couple paragraphs here and get the idea across.
Notwise, I scanned the story because I didn't have time to read it carefully and noted a few places that the first person narrator appears, and I'm curious: why did you choose to do it that way?

Also, on the second page there's a paragraph in which I is used, and it's not clear to me if that's the narrator or the words of the song that Keren sings ("I love Tannehill . . ."). I assume the latter.
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Old 11-06-2017, 02:50 PM   #40
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Notwise, I scanned the story because I didn't have time to read it carefully and noted a few places that the first person narrator appears, and I'm curious: why did you choose to do it that way?
The storyteller introduces the story and interjects her own thoughts at times--pretty much like you would expect a storyteller to do. The purpose is to add background to the story that can't be added through normal narrative or dialogue, to pace the story, to facilitate transitions, and sometimes to explain the significance of events.

The story was inspired by an American Indian folk tale ("The Man Who Married the Moon") cited at the end of the story. The narrative style was borrowed from the rather Victorian telling of the story in its original publication.

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Also, on the second page there's a paragraph in which I is used, and it's not clear to me if that's the narrator or the words of the song that Keren sings ("I love Tannehill . . ."). I assume the latter.
You must have skimmed pretty quickly. The preceding paragraph is

Quote:
Tannehill stopped where a white lily lifted its flower, and he fell to his knees before it. Keren’s sweet voice came to him through the lily from a far-away place. He listened then sang her song—almost like a childhood rhyme—for Doctor to hear.
So it's Keren's song, repeated by Tannehill (her husband)--but of course, everything is actually related by the storyteller.
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Old 11-06-2017, 03:01 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by NotWise View Post
The storyteller introduces the story and interjects her own thoughts at times--pretty much like you would expect a storyteller to do. The purpose is to add background to the story that can't be added through normal narrative or dialogue, to pace the story, to facilitate transitions, and sometimes to explain the significance of events.

The story was inspired by an American Indian folk tale ("The Man Who Married the Moon") cited at the end of the story. The narrative style was borrowed from the rather Victorian telling of the story in its original publication.



You must have skimmed pretty quickly. The preceding paragraph is



So it's Keren's song, repeated by Tannehill (her husband)--but of course, everything is actually related by the storyteller.
What threw me was that it wasn't in quotation marks, but when I re-read it I figured that it was the words of the song.

Thanks for the explanation.
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Old 11-06-2017, 03:14 PM   #42
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What threw me was that it wasn't in quotation marks, but when I re-read it I figured that it was the words of the song.

Thanks for the explanation.
Quotation marks might have helped.
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Old 11-06-2017, 04:37 PM   #43
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Addressing the audience isn't second person. (This notion crept in higher up the line in the discussion.) It's first person. Second person is being completely in the mind and perception of the "You," not simply using the word "you." Addressing the audience isn't even remotely similar to second person.
Agreed.

I think the catch here is that the first/second/third person distinction often doesn't quite cover the issue that people are trying to articulate. If I write a story that treats "you" as a protagonist, not just the audience, that's going to be jarring for many readers regardless of whether there's also an "I" in the narrative. This particular issue comes up quite a lot in story feedback, as people learn that a style which works for sexy roleplay with a lover doesn't go down so well with an audience of strangers.

Is there any neat terminology for that "you-as-protagonist" style?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonDoom View Post
True second person POV is very unusual and comes across as strange. The best example I know is Jay McInerny's Bright Lights, Big City. The opening is "You are not the kind of guy who would be at a place like this at this time of the morning. But here you are, and you cannot say that the terrain is entirely unfamiliar." The entire novel is like that. There is no "I" narrator. The pronoun "you" is used throughout. McInerny was a young aspiring writer trying to make a splash, so he did something different.
The natural home of true second person is in interactive fiction: Choose Your Own Adventure, computer games and so forth.

Charles Stross uses it in his "Halting State"/"Rule 34" novels, apparently because he wanted to evoke that computer-game feeling. I can't say that it really improved the stories for me, but after a few pages I got used to it and stopped noticing it.
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Old 11-06-2017, 04:59 PM   #44
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Is there any neat terminology for that "you-as-protagonist" style?


Not that I know of. I'd recognize if called "pseudo-second person."
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Old 11-06-2017, 09:26 PM   #45
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It's kinda like Dukes of Hazzard with that guy tellin' you what's going and stuff cause some people don't get it but you don't want to bare ass them so I like to make them feel like they're smarter than me and stuff so by tellin' 'em things like that they can say they knew all along and don't look dumb and stuff.

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Old 11-06-2017, 09:41 PM   #46
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True second person POV is very unusual and comes across as strange. The best example I know is Jay McInerny's Bright Lights, Big City. The opening is "You are not the kind of guy who would be at a place like this at this time of the morning. But here you are, and you cannot say that the terrain is entirely unfamiliar." The entire novel is like that. There is no "I" narrator. The pronoun "you" is used throughout. McInerny was a young aspiring writer trying to make a splash, so he did something different.

If the novel is told by an "I" but occasionally refers to "you", it's in first person, because the narrator is the I. But in the second person there is no "I". The POV is from the "you" perspective.
Closest things I can think that'd be second person are the likes of instruction manuals.
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Old 11-06-2017, 11:11 PM   #47
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Closest things I can think that'd be second person are the likes of instruction manuals.
Instruction manuals should be about the farthest thing from second person as possible. Manuasl are a teaching form--from "me" to "you." If the right method/procedure was in the mind of the "you" sans the manual, no manual would be needed. Basic first person: "I'm instructing you about what I know and you don't yet."
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Old 11-07-2017, 02:32 AM   #48
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I have done it on several occasions. The success of the tactic depends entirely on where and how it is placed in the story: I don't like 'asides to the audience' in the middle of conversation or action For me, it works if I've specifically set up the story as a memoir, and have made that aspect of specifically known throughout the narrative. In one story here (Ladies Night at the Leather Bar Ch. 1), I addressed the reader in this manner:

'Dear reader, I apologize if my retelling jumps around haphazardly, but I find myself sobbing again in the remembrance. One would think that I'm just a big crybaby, but I'm really not: I only cry for happy things. Show me a little kid that drops an ice cream cone and somebody brings the smile back by giving them a new one, and I'm a goner. I think my tears today are shaded with a little sadness. I miss my Chloe so much.'

Context is everything.
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Old 11-07-2017, 04:20 AM   #49
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I do it in my LST3ks, but those are a solid 4th wall break from beginning to end.

I don't think I ever blatantly address the reader in any of my first person stories beyond turns of phrase such as "You know?" that are really more emphasis and narrator quirk than anything else.

One of my favorite stories does it pretty consistently, so I'm going to have to say that the use of it certainly doesn't turn me away.

https://www.literotica.com/s/and-soo...vil-plan-ch-01
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Old 11-07-2017, 09:22 AM   #50
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I guess I did it in my horror story Undulating Waves. There the narrator is talking to a reporter from a New York newspaper and explaining the true story of how he ended up in the madhouse. There are a few references to 'you' in the beginning but once the story gets going the narrator is just telling the story until its conclusion where he again refers to 'you'.
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