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Old 09-18-2017, 09:29 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by PlasticBlonde2017 View Post
I think it can be quite the opposite and really beautiful.
Porn, beautiful
I think you might be confusing "Interracial Porn" with "Interracial Sex" in that last sentence!
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Old 09-18-2017, 04:54 PM   #77
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There are even more weird categories - foot porn; amputee porn; toe-sucking...
Not on Lit, though. Yet.
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Old 09-18-2017, 07:51 PM   #78
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I ran across this today:
http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/3...es-super-viral

Yeah. Cotton.

I think this blew me away because cotton itself is one of the most massively useful plants ever discovered, probably bowing only to wood and consumable grains. It's nearly as workable as wool and you don't have to chase it to get it. We have uses for every part of the plant. As plants go, it deserves to be celebrated.

Sure, the US exploited labor to harvest it. No question. But it's hard to blame the plant. If we want to blame plants for things, we have a lot of options:

Wood. used to torture people. Crosses are offensive.
Most grains and fruits. Harvested by exploited and underpaid labor to this day.
Olives. A clear provocation to alcoholics.
Marijuana. The leading cause of Reefer Madness. Still offensive to many politicians, the poor dears.
Corn. Fed to livestock. I don't have to tell you what livestock is for. Vegans rightly recoil in horror.

Clearly it's wrong to display any of these substances publicly. And I promise you, this list could be extended for quite some time. As someone allergic to poison ivy and entirely unable to tell it from Hedera helix, I can't tell you how offensive I find most Christmas displays.

Since anything can have the race card played on it, the race card is fast becoming a 0 point card in most people's hands. And that is the last thing an oppressed minority needs.

But back to the original point - as long as other tribes set off a subliminal fear reaction, they will find a place in sexuality. Sometimes not a healthy place, but that's not unique to IR. I doubt it's ever going anywhere. Not while anyone gets the vapors over cotton puffs, anyway.
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Old 09-18-2017, 07:54 PM   #79
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Not on Lit, though. Yet.
Actually there are ten subcategories of toe-sucking stories. Ogg has probably written at least one of each.
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Old 09-18-2017, 08:13 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by HandsInTheDark View Post
I ran across this today:
http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/3...es-super-viral

Yeah. Cotton.

I think this blew me away because cotton itself is one of the most massively useful plants ever discovered, probably bowing only to wood and consumable grains. It's nearly as workable as wool and you don't have to chase it to get it. We have uses for every part of the plant. As plants go, it deserves to be celebrated.

Sure, the US exploited labor to harvest it. No question. But it's hard to blame the plant. If we want to blame plants for things, we have a lot of options:

Wood. used to torture people. Crosses are offensive.
Most grains and fruits. Harvested by exploited and underpaid labor to this day.
Olives. A clear provocation to alcoholics.
Marijuana. The leading cause of Reefer Madness. Still offensive to many politicians, the poor dears.
Corn. Fed to livestock. I don't have to tell you what livestock is for. Vegans rightly recoil in horror.

Clearly it's wrong to display any of these substances publicly. And I promise you, this list could be extended for quite some time. As someone allergic to poison ivy and entirely unable to tell it from Hedera helix, I can't tell you how offensive I find most Christmas displays.
You jest, but I remember back in 2003 when actual elected politicians being paid from the public purse decided to freak out about what to call fried potatoes. One of those guys is still a Federal rep, so I guess it didn't hurt his credibility too badly. (The other went to jail for non-potato-related corruption.) At least the Tucson lady's doing it on her own dime and not ours.
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Old 09-19-2017, 08:51 AM   #81
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At least the Tucson lady's doing it on her own dime and not ours.
I grant you she has the right of free speech, and if she wants to set up in a public park decrying the display of cotton puffs, she's got a right. We don't have a law against making a damn fool of yourself here, as recent politics will attest.

But there's a real (sometimes media exaggerated, but still very real) race problem in this country, and she's a symptom of it and a hindrance towards a solution. Look for the coming porn videos where some white woman gets used on a cotton bale by a bunch of angry black dudes (and, of course, loves it).

(Actually it probably existed before. It's too good a symbol to ignore. I'm not going to look; I was done with porn sites ages ago.)
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Old 09-19-2017, 09:25 AM   #82
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as long as other tribes set off a subliminal fear reaction . . . gets the vapors over cotton puffs, anyway.
Not sure what "other tribes" have to do with anything in your example? The woman making the complaint was white.

(I'm not 100% convinced that the whole thing isn't a conservative troll exercise TBH -- and I don't personally give a shit about the use of raw cotton as a decoration -- but giving her the benefit of the doubt, cotton is symbolically central to the whole question of American White supremacism and Negrophobia, the Confederacy and the core Trump base in a way other plants aren't. The Civil War, slavery, King Cotton, and Confederate battle flags and statues as symbols of modern racism are all pretty much of a piece.)
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Old 09-19-2017, 02:42 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by HandsInTheDark View Post
I ran across this today:
http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/3...es-super-viral

Yeah. Cotton.

I think this blew me away because cotton itself is one of the most massively useful plants ever discovered, probably bowing only to wood and consumable grains. It's nearly as workable as wool and you don't have to chase it to get it. We have uses for every part of the plant. As plants go, it deserves to be celebrated.

Sure, the US exploited labor to harvest it. No question. But it's hard to blame the plant. If we want to blame plants for things, we have a lot of options:

Wood. used to torture people. Crosses are offensive.
Most grains and fruits. Harvested by exploited and underpaid labor to this day.
Olives. A clear provocation to alcoholics.
Marijuana. The leading cause of Reefer Madness. Still offensive to many politicians, the poor dears.
Corn. Fed to livestock. I don't have to tell you what livestock is for. Vegans rightly recoil in horror.

Clearly it's wrong to display any of these substances publicly. And I promise you, this list could be extended for quite some time. As someone allergic to poison ivy and entirely unable to tell it from Hedera helix, I can't tell you how offensive I find most Christmas displays.

Since anything can have the race card played on it, the race card is fast becoming a 0 point card in most people's hands. And that is the last thing an oppressed minority needs.

But back to the original point - as long as other tribes set off a subliminal fear reaction, they will find a place in sexuality. Sometimes not a healthy place, but that's not unique to IR. I doubt it's ever going anywhere. Not while anyone gets the vapors over cotton puffs, anyway.
I agree with this. If you look at polls and surveys of public opinion, attitudes about race are more tolerant than ever. People are more tolerant of things like interracial marriage, living next to people of different races, people of different races being in positions of power, etc.

But phobias and pathologies about race continue, and they keep taking new forms. The extreme sensitivity about "tainted" symbols, such as this woman's reaction to cotton, is one. Another is the bizarre doctrine of cultural misappropriation, which, if taken seriously, would have us hunker down in the cultural corners we're born in and never venture beyond them.

As far as I can tell, although racial attitudes generally are improving, IR porn is going gangbusters, so I would agree it's unlikely we'll see the end of it anytime soon.
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Old 09-19-2017, 05:16 PM   #84
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I grant you she has the right of free speech, and if she wants to set up in a public park decrying the display of cotton puffs, she's got a right. We don't have a law against making a damn fool of yourself here, as recent politics will attest.

But there's a real (sometimes media exaggerated, but still very real) race problem in this country, and she's a symptom of it and a hindrance towards a solution. Look for the coming porn videos where some white woman gets used on a cotton bale by a bunch of angry black dudes (and, of course, loves it).
Is she really a significant hindrance, though? I feel like anybody who latches on that FB post as a reason to deny the reality of racism is probably somebody who was looking for any excuse at all to deny the reality of racism, and that sort of person can always find their excuse one way or another.
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Old 09-19-2017, 05:23 PM   #85
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We can write multi-racial tales with whatever level of racism we want. Racism (but not IR sex) is prominent in Sweet Voodoo. IR sex (but not racism) is thick in Double Your Fun. I've scattered racist sex scenes in some series.

My point is, we can make it as racist as we want, to gain the reactions we desire.
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Old 09-19-2017, 05:33 PM   #86
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As far as I can tell, although racial attitudes generally are improving, IR porn is going gangbusters, so I would agree it's unlikely we'll see the end of it anytime soon.
Staying away from the dreaded P word, I'd have to agree that in general racial attitudes are improving. Empirical experience- I grew up in a small town where my mom was pretty much the only Asian girl when she was young and we've compared notes and I had a much easier time of it than she did. Now I live in a small city with not to much in the way of ethnic diversity where I'm very much the visible minority, my partner is white and we get the odd look and comment but nothing much other than that. Quite the change from my mom's time. Just personal experience.

As for interracial porn, I think it goes all ways. I find a surprising number of Asian girls really enjoy the white guy / Asian girl story lines I write so that's not just my little thrill and it's got a lot more of an audience than I thought. The whole IR thing is a lot more broad than just black and white and I guess it's also less and less an illicit thrill and a lot more mainstream than it used to be. The white / Chinese thing seems to be getting more popular in China these days too. Fascinating.

Is it racist? Depends on the way it's portrayed. I write all IR but I don't think any of mine is racist, although I do throw in racism, almost always in a negative way because that's how I generally see it. But of course there are those who see any IR erotica or sex as racist and they'd no doubt slam my stories as racist regardless.
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Old 09-19-2017, 11:06 PM   #87
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Is it racist? Depends on the way it's portrayed. I write all IR but I don't think any of mine is racist, although I do throw in racism, almost always in a negative way because that's how I generally see it. But of course there are those who see any IR erotica or sex as racist and they'd no doubt slam my stories as racist regardless.
I think the relevant stereotype in that area is "Asian women are submissive sex toys for white guys who find white women too assertive". I don't recall any of your stories pandering to that one; if anything, they usually seem to challenge it.
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Old 09-19-2017, 11:13 PM   #88
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I think the relevant stereotype in that area is "Asian women are submissive sex toys for white guys who find white women too assertive". I don't recall any of your stories pandering to that one; if anything, they usually seem to challenge it.
Now there I'd agree, that's not something I cater too. I've had a few requests to write something along those lines including a couple from Asian girls, which did surprise me coz I thought that was strictly a guy fantasy. I may give it a try but with a twist.
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Old 09-19-2017, 11:46 PM   #89
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Is she really a significant hindrance, though? I feel like anybody who latches on that FB post as a reason to deny the reality of racism is probably somebody who was looking for any excuse at all to deny the reality of racism, and that sort of person can always find their excuse one way or another.
That's exactly the problem. When you have someone who manages to make a mockery of their own position, the other side embraces the willing delusion that the other other side is uniformly at best stupid. To resolve racism or any divide you need dialogue. And you can't have dialogue with someone you've already decided has the intellect of a medium-stupid penguin. So it's vastly important that people don't enter the conversation sounding like medium-stupid penguins.

Unfortunately the medium loves stories about stupid-penguins. So any debate begins to look like a virtual shouting match of penguins. And so we constantly reinforce the stereotypes that people are genetically too inclined to embrace anyway, and progress doesn't get made.

I ran across this by chance. It's fascinating in this context
http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reason...e-talks-about/
at the end, be sure to follow the mirror-image view (well, somewhat) written by the same guy.
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Old 09-20-2017, 01:14 AM   #90
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That's exactly the problem. When you have someone who manages to make a mockery of their own position, the other side embraces the willing delusion that the other other side is uniformly at best stupid.
The occasional blunderer in any cause is unavoidable. It's not an issue when parties to the debate are honest and sane and have a sense of perspective and aren't obsessed with turning every random idiocy into a Major Catastrophe for Civilization. All of us get shit wrong or misjudge once in a while.

Of course, therein lies the rub. Because what you describe is likeliest to happen

a) when one side extremely frequently makes a mockery of its own position (say, being totally out of touch with reality, believing the earth is flat / gravity is a hoax / climate change is a Chinese plot / today's Democrats are responsible for the KKK / whatever) rather than just occasionally; and/or

b) when one side is actively and constantly propagandising its followers to encourage them to believe everyone on the other side is at best stupid.

Funnily enough, when a faction meets the criteria of a) it's also a lot likelier to engage more and more intensely in b). Say, by picking out the occasional blunderer on the so-called "other side" and using them as viral propaganda to distract from one's own far more serious flaws and idiocies.

Story of the "conservative movement" for the last fifty years in a nutshell. This is why it's almost invariably right-wing media, in this case, that are in utter paroxysms about a largely insignificant complaint made to a Hobby Lobby. It's a perfect example of that effect, and the fault lies far more with the propagandists and their dupes than with their targets.
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Old 09-20-2017, 04:24 AM   #91
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And the problem with a topic like this is it can so very easily veer off into politics can't it? And part of the issue with discussing interracial porn and racism is it can be such a very political topic.

Porn itself is one of those things that used to be condemned for it's sexual explicitness alone, but as that's faded it's now the exploitative aspects that are condemned and judged and that's even more subjective. We see that more and more now with interracial porn / erotica and it's moved into non- porn aspects of interracial relationships, with many people taking very judgemental positions based on the permutation of the relationship.

It kind of always goes back to interpretation. The racism is in the mind of the creator and the recipient of the porn. One persons interracial porn can be someone else's racism and it's almost always subjective.
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Old 09-20-2017, 10:06 AM   #92
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And the problem with a topic like this is it can so very easily veer off into politics can't it? And part of the issue with discussing interracial porn and racism is it can be such a very political topic.

Porn itself is one of those things that used to be condemned for it's sexual explicitness alone, but as that's faded it's now the exploitative aspects that are condemned and judged and that's even more subjective. We see that more and more now with interracial porn / erotica and it's moved into non- porn aspects of interracial relationships, with many people taking very judgemental positions based on the permutation of the relationship.

It kind of always goes back to interpretation. The racism is in the mind of the creator and the recipient of the porn. One persons interracial porn can be someone else's racism and it's almost always subjective.
stop being stooped and put a note on your fridge or bathroom mirror: RACISM IS DISQUALIFICATION BASED RACE ALONE. IF A BLACK CANT HAVE A TINY PENIS OR GET HIS ASS KICKED BY A 98 POUND SISSY, ITS RACISM.
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Old 09-20-2017, 01:18 PM   #93
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There was a discussion at work today that i heard when someone said that all interracial porn was racist. Everyone just agreed with him and no one contested it, i would have done but i didn't understand what he was getting at. I enjoy interracial porn (WW/ BM) and millions of other people do all over the world and i just wondered if people felt the same here too and could explain why as i don't see what's racist about it. I think it can be quite the opposite and really beautiful.
Interracial porn racist? I would think it is the exact opposite.
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Old 09-20-2017, 01:30 PM   #94
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Interracial porn racist? I would think it is the exact opposite.
The fact that it would exist is counter to racism, yes.

Surely, it's only racist if it denigrates a participant of one color to a participant of another color. If he's a black bull and she's a hot momma and they go at each other with abandon and no holding back and a reader sees racism in that--the reader probably is the racist in this instance.
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Old 09-20-2017, 08:22 PM   #95
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As far as I can tell, although racial attitudes generally are improving, IR porn is going gangbusters
It's possible it's going gangbusters because it's trivial to film. Neither whites and blacks are in short supply, and put them naked in a room together and the narrative writes itself in the minds of many viewers. Which saves the porn producer from doing any writing. Which I suppose is good because as far as I can tell a lot of them suck at it.

I think you can tell a lot about a society from the advertising aimed at it; but the actual products themselves are more complex to analyze. Anyone can made an ad and they can hammer away using any fantasy they like, which is why shampoos have connotation-heavy, meaning-free names like "herbal escape" (excuse me, why are the herbs escaping, and I'd rather they stayed in the bottle anyway?) The fact that advertising like that works tells me that a lot of people would like to escape the confines of their sad lives and get themselves back to the garden, much more than they worry about how clean their hair gets: herbs don't do all that much for hair.

But product - hey, I'm sure porn producers could do better with hotter women, more realistic acting, etc. But that costs money and they are under price pressure from amateurs doing stuff for free, and places with looser laws. So it's a never ending quest for the bottom - driven there by what they can get. (Not many women grow up dreaming of being porn stars).

So I don't think we can assume that porn reflects society. I hope not. As best I can tell from the places I'd seen, most sex is ugly undeserving men fucking rather-past-prime women (made up to look young), black guys doing "sluts" who respond with questionably convincing enthusiasm as sluts go, and lesbians who don't seem to get wet for each other and have no idea how to flirt. If that's representative of our dreams of sex, let alone the real thing, we have worse problems than I think.

Now what you can infer from erotic writing... that's more interesting. There are some doctrinal theses lurking on this site (I think at least one was already done.)

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Old 09-20-2017, 09:19 PM   #96
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It's possible it's going gangbusters because it's trivial to film. Neither whites and blacks are in short supply, and put them naked in a room together and the narrative writes itself in the minds of many viewers. Which saves the porn producer from doing any writing. Which I suppose is good because as far as I can tell a lot of them suck at it.

I think you can tell a lot about a society from the advertising aimed at it; but the actual products themselves are more complex to analyze. Anyone can made an ad and they can hammer away using any fantasy they like, which is why shampoos have connotation-heavy, meaning-free names like "herbal escape" (excuse me, why are the herbs escaping, and I'd rather they stayed in the bottle anyway?) The fact that advertising like that works tells me that a lot of people would like to escape the confines of their sad lives and get themselves back to the garden, much more than they worry about how clean their hair gets: herbs don't do all that much for hair.

But product - hey, I'm sure porn producers could do better with hotter women, more realistic acting, etc. But that costs money and they are under price pressure from amateurs doing stuff for free, and places with looser laws. So it's a never ending quest for the bottom - driven there by what they can get. (Not many women grow up dreaming of being porn stars).

So I don't think we can assume that porn reflects society. I hope not. As best I can tell from the places I'd seen, most sex is ugly undeserving men fucking rather-past-prime women (made up to look young), black guys doing "sluts" who respond with questionably convincing enthusiasm as sluts go, and lesbians who don't seem to get wet for each other and have no idea how to flirt. If that's representative of our dreams of sex, let alone the real thing, we have worse problems than I think.

Now what you can infer from erotic writing... that's more interesting. There are some doctrinal theses lurking on this site (I think at least one was already done.)
My point was to question the relationship between racial attitudes in society, generally, and the existence of this genre of porn/erotica. There appears to be an enduring fascination with the idea of black men and white women getting it on, despite the fact that the taboo against such couplings is fast fading away. The existence of the taboo is a relic of racism. But as to what it means that people keep wanting to see this type of porn . . . I'm not sure. That's why I posed the questions I did in an earlier thread. No one has responded to it. I'm not sure what the answer is.

I appreciate your perspective, but I think it's too pessimistic. I think there are ways in which porn DOES reflect society, and in some good ways.

Take the website Blacked.com, for example. It's all about black guys fucking white women. The white women often are presented as living in beautiful and obviously expensive houses. But the interesting thing is that the black men typically aren't presented as workmen, or pool boys, or whatever. They are boyfriends of white girlfriends or friends, or friends of husbands. So the site pushes the black man-white woman trope, but it doesn't actively push the idea of black men as bestial or inferior or uncontrollably sexual. It subtly changes the way the stereotype is presented. It may not be the most impressive form of progress, but I think it's progress.

I also don't fret about the ugliness of porn, because, IMO, one of the whole points of porn is to provide an outlet for venting the dark and ugly and nonrational side of people. I very much doubt that any harm comes from writing or reading stories here, whatever their content.
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Old 09-20-2017, 10:55 PM   #97
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There was a discussion at work today that i heard when someone said that all interracial porn was racist. Everyone just agreed with him and no one contested it, i would have done but i didn't understand what he was getting at. I enjoy interracial porn (WW/ BM) and millions of other people do all over the world and i just wondered if people felt the same here too and could explain why as i don't see what's racist about it. I think it can be quite the opposite and really beautiful.
I haven't read through the replies, but I'm pretty sure I'm not the first person to say this, it depends on the context. If the partners just happen to be different races, even if some of the obvious issues come up, it's not racist, just as a story where one of the partners is Jewish isn't necessarily anti-Semitic.

Now if it focuses on BBC's (Big Black Cocks) it is probably racist. Over in LW you'll see it a lot in the Cuckold stories.
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Old 09-20-2017, 11:08 PM   #98
Hypoxia
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USA racist pr0n defies history. The fetish: bestial black studs rudely debauch innocent (or maybe curious) pure white maidens. The reality: white masters raped slave women, even their own daughters. Southern 'plantations' were fetid slave labor camps, nothing more. The fetish is a psychological reverse projection, a guilt trip suffered by racist snowflakes. Yeah, just white guilt.

What to do, storywise? Maybe try side-by-side 'plantations', one with a white owner of black slaves, the other vice-versa. Both masters fuck their slaves and daughters. Do the social dynamics change? Now set these in other lands with different races of owners and slaves. See what happens.

Last edited by Hypoxia : 09-21-2017 at 02:36 AM.
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Old 09-20-2017, 11:10 PM   #99
sr71plt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbrooks103x View Post
Now if it focuses on BBC's (Big Black Cocks) it is probably racist.
Eh, what? Only if the writer or the reader consider that big black cocks are bad. If the reader thinks that and the writer doesn't, the racist element is in the reader's court, not the writer's.
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Last edited by sr71plt : 09-21-2017 at 12:16 AM.
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Old 09-20-2017, 11:29 PM   #100
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Lol no.
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