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Old 01-06-2003, 10:51 PM   #26
Wm_Sexspear
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Advantage??

Let me see if I've got this striaght? I didn't write my first story until April, I never tried for an immunity, almost everything I wrote was a very long story...not a bunch of short poems, almsot every story I wrote got a very positive reader ranking, yet Chicklet suggests I had an advantage?? Seems to me that getting the same points for a tiny poem as for a 5000~10,000 word story is an advantage that might be explored further.

Just for the record, my stories were mostly posted from Sept.-Dec.; did anyone expect me to psot my scores before that? Considering the huge point jumps I saw in late December from some people, I don't appreciate anyone pointing any fingers in my direction.

I would do away with the immunities if this is supposed to be writing contest, then add more point awards for actaully writing stories; points for 3 or 4 categories posted. I mean 3 catagories = x points; 6 catagories = y more points. This would open the competion up to more authors.

I'm tempted to suggest points for stories that achieve a certain ranking [as in readers actually like the stories]. The present system encourages people to turn out anything just to score points. The obvious problem with this is there is so much fraud already. All my stories have been hit many, many fraudlent votes this year...some authors might not be able to resist the temptation to vote against poeple competing in this contest.

Perhaps a bonus for cumluative ranking [avg rank of all stories submitted in 2003], or the number of 5-votes garnished would be a better bonus source. If only the 5-votes earned were counted, if would defeat 1-voting. I'd still like to for everyone to be able to see the vote-breakdown for each story so fraud voting would be more apparent to the writers and readership.

I think points for "E's" is a bad idea. Getting an 'E' is VERY arbitrary. People that are close to Laurel are much more likely to get an 'E' while stories that spend time in the top of the TOP LISTs rarely get them.

I feel simply translating one English story into another language should be the limit. To gain further points for "non-English" stories...they should be original stories written exclusively in Non-English. Being bi-lingual shouldn't be a license to double one's story points. People who's primarly language in non-English already have a serious handicap. Simply being bi-lingual shouldn't be a huge advandage.

I have no intention of entering this contest ever again, so my comments and observations are made in the interest of improving the contest...not gaining any advantage.

Last edited by Wm_Sexspear : 01-07-2003 at 01:12 AM.
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Old 01-06-2003, 10:55 PM   #27
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Hmm . . . so I've been hanging out on this site for two plus years now, and somehow, up until this week, I've been totally unaware of the Survivor contest. Although I have yet to actually submit anything here, I'm excited--I'm thinking it just might be the thing that motivates me to get off my ass and finish all those half-baked stories I have languishing on my hard drive.

Anyway, about this whole non-English thing--I know it's probably not really my business, but I thought I'd offer my take on the off-chance that another opinion might help . . . feel free to tell me to piss off and maybe come back when I'm an actual Literotica author or something .

I'm not going to argue that translating a piece of writing into another language is hard work. Clearly, skills that have taken years of discipline to attain are being utilized in the act of translating. However, I'm not sure this is really the issue. The point--at least I would think--is that they are not the same sort of skills required in crafting a story or poem; these being namely plot structuring, character development, narrative voice and word choice, etc. Basically, then, I would think the question is more a matter of what this competition is designed to be a contest of--one's willingness/ability to work hard in front of a computer or one's skill as a writer/author. From what I understand (in that Literotica is primarily a site for the publishing of original erotic writings), Literotica Survivor is a contest of one's writing skills. But maybe I'm totally wrong about this; I don't know. If I'm not, then I think the only non-English stories that would be eligible would be those that are original, not simply translated.

As for the argument that restricting the non-English category places her at an unfair disadvantage, Svenskaflicka cites her inability to write stories in the lesbian category and the fact that there are no point caps in this area (And I swear, Svenskaflicka, I'm not trying to stick my uppity nose in here and pick on you , I'm just calling it like I see it .) I don't think this inability to write lesbian erotica, based on, as you've said, an inability to relate/understand the characters' motivations, is a valid compararison to others' inability to translate stories. I say this because I think the ability to stretch our mental boundaries to encompass the thoughts and feelings of characters so unlike our real-life selves is a big part of what the craft of writing is about. When we lack the ability/skill/desire/whatever to do this, I think we ought to be susceptible to disadvantage in a contest of writing, because, at least in this case, our skill as a writer has broken down.

Besides, in terms of an inability to mentally/emotionally relate, I'd wager everyone has category hangups--I mean, I know there's no way I can ever write a loving wives story, for example.

Finally, I think your concern about original stories submitted as entries into the non-English category not reaching the English-only readership is not entirely founded--as I understand it, you wouldn't be restricted from translating stories for the site; they would merely be ineligible for points in both categories. Possibly you'd be unwilling to take the time to translate knowing you'd get no points from it--if you want to win the contest, it's only natural to want to conserve time and effort. Still, that would leave you with a choice, and really, I think that a restriction of one's "normal" readership in exchange for exposure to a new population of readers is almost the nature of this contest.

That is to say, I have never written a gay male story but I might be persuaded to do so for the sake of the contest. My regular readership (imagine, for a moment, that I have one ) might not be interested in such a story (being that they're not the ones competing in a writing contest, I guess they're entitled to their hangups.) So by writing in this category, I'm cutting myself off from a potentially large base of my "regular" readers in the interest of furthering my standing. But it's my choice.

Essentially, what I'm trying to say is that, yes, I think translating is hard work but, no, I don't think it involves the same set of skills that a competition that calls itself a contest of authors ought to reward. However, I do think that if it is decided to expand the scope of the contest's intent to encompass the skill of translating, PS's idea of 2 points for the author and 1 for the translator seems reasonable.

All that having been said, I apologize for rambling on and comandeering a thread on a subject I probably know nothing about. I meant no offense to anyone; hopefully none will be taken. Feel free to ignore me by all means . As for the Survivor contest on the whole, I'm glad that it exists, have the utmost respect for all previous winners, and am really looking forward to it this year. Thanks for letting me say my piece.
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Old 01-06-2003, 11:19 PM   #28
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Oh, I forgot to put my vote up on the idea of posting the scorecards:

I want them up all year long, but I think there should also be a countdown so new folks know they don't have to stress and worry.

Like, maybe on the immunities: 1-5-03 Immunity for Survior, you still have 51 weeks to play, join now!

And, because we aren't all on the same time zone/comp access I'd like to see the immunity be available til the next one is posted. If you haven't used yours by then, you've lost it.
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Old 01-07-2003, 12:34 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Graymouse

Besides, in terms of an inability to mentally/emotionally relate, I'd wager everyone has category hangups--I mean, I know there's no way I can ever write a loving wives story, for example.

Exactly. I'm never going to write a novel that I publish here, yet I don't expect everyone to compensate for my greed by giving me a way to make points in the category some other way. That's the whole freakin' point of immunities.

So, the fact that one does or doesn't speak another language well enough to write and/or translate a story in it shouldn't qualify as a reason they need special treatment and an alternative way to make points.

Unless y'all are going to give me the special "lazy person" exemption to Novels.

Cuz the last two years, I've just used immunities--like most people who can't finish a category for some reason.

RS
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Old 01-07-2003, 03:04 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wm_Sexspear

Seems to me that getting the same points for a tiny poem as for a 5000~10,000 word story is an advantage that might be explored further.
I thought the points for a new poem was 2, whereas the points for a new story was 3? That's not the "same" points then. Also, why should poetry be excluded?

Quote:

Just for the record, my stories were mostly posted from Sept.-Dec.; did anyone expect me to psot my scores before that? Considering the huge point jumps I saw in late December from some people, I don't appreciate anyone pointing any fingers in my direction.
Unless I missed something earlier, who pointed what at you?

Quote:

I'm tempted to suggest points for stories that achieve a certain ranking [as in readers actually like the stories]. The present system encourages people to turn out anything just to score points. The obvious problem with this is there is so much fraud already. All my stories have been hit many, many fraudlent votes this year...some authors might not be able to resist the temptation to vote against poeple competing in this contest.
You said it yourself... Some people fall victim to fraudulent votes from people looking to sabotage them. It's been brought up by others that scores and the "H"ot stories change often. Why would we award more points in this area?

Quote:

I think points for "E's" is a bad idea. Getting an 'E' is VERY arbitrary. People that are close to Laurel are much more likely to get an 'E' while stories that spend time in the top of the TOP LISTs rarely get them.
So, you think Laurel is a fraud herself? You think she awards "E"s falsely?

Quote:

Being bi-lingual shouldn't be a license to double one's story points.
I do agree with this one...

Quote:

I have no intention of entering this contest ever again...
Why? You've given your input and made your suggestions for improvements for this year's contest... Why would you want to quit now? Didn't you have fun? Is this because you felt "singled out" or whatever?
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Old 01-07-2003, 03:32 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by RisiaSkye
Immunities:
I think everyone ought to have to use it that week, or it goes away. Also, I don't think one should be able to erase it later.
In my defense, the reason I took the immunity away from my score was that it was still the same # of points - I didn't *move* the immunity, just erased it completely.
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Old 01-07-2003, 03:35 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chicklet
In my defense, the reason I took the immunity away from my score was that it was still the same # of points - I didn't *move* the immunity, just erased it completely.
For the record, I've used you and Svenska as examples several times, but it's nothing personal and I don't mean to offend. It's just that, as the people with the most points and therefor the most point-jockeying, you offer the best opportunities to look at ways the contest could be improved.

So there.

RS
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Old 01-07-2003, 03:35 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wm_Sexspear
Chicklet suggests I had an advantage??
Hey, hold on there...

I wasn't attacking you and I hope you didn't take it the wrong way - I just thought it would have been a good strategy for someone to keep their scores hidden until the end - I wasn't trying to accuse you of anything or belittle you at all. I'm shocked and very sorry that you took it that way = (

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Old 01-07-2003, 03:36 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by RisiaSkye
For the record, I've used you and Svenska as examples several times, but it's nothing personal and I don't mean to offend. It's just that, as the people with the most points and therefor the most point-jockeying, you offer the best opportunities to look at ways the contest could be improved.

So there.

RS
is ok, I just didn't want anyone to misunderstand what I'd said previously and maybe think I'd been cheating
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Old 01-07-2003, 03:40 AM   #35
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Maybe instead of useing examples we should just say "If PosterX did thus then ...."

Instead of using direct examples, or if must use direct examples use them from years past, and not last year?
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Old 01-07-2003, 03:42 AM   #36
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WM's Great Suggestions

Quote:
Originally posted by Wm_Sexspear
I would do away with the immunities if this is supposed to be writing contest, then add more point awards for actaully writing stories; points for 3 or 4 categories posted. I mean 3 catagories = x points; 6 catagories = y more points. This would open the competion up to more authors.
I think that this has potential - What if Immunities didn't count towards the category bonuses?

Quote:
Originally posted by Wm_Sexspear
I'm tempted to suggest points for stories that achieve a certain ranking [as in readers actually like the stories]. The present system encourages people to turn out anything just to score points. The obvious problem with this is there is so much fraud already. All my stories have been hit many, many fraudlent votes this year...some authors might not be able to resist the temptation to vote against poeple competing in this contest.
I thought about this too but as he said, it seems like it would be too easy to cheat or hurt other people. What if we made a bonus for readers choice awards? Just a little place at the bottom? 3 pts for each award, or something?

Quote:
Originally posted by Wm_SexspearBeing bi-lingual shouldn't be a license to double one's story points.
This is exactly what I'm talking about.

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Old 01-07-2003, 03:49 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Graymouse

Although I have yet to actually submit anything here, I'm excited--I'm thinking it just might be the thing that motivates me to get off my ass and finish all those half-baked stories I have languishing on my hard drive.
I hear ya there. Though I have submitted a few things (under a couple of different names), I have disks and a hard drive collecting virtual dust on them now. Also, this is my first year "trying" the contest even though I've been around Lit since early 2000. I, too, am very excited!

Quote:

...I would think the question is more a matter of what this competition is designed to be a contest of--one's willingness/ability to work hard in front of a computer or one's skill as a writer/author. From what I understand (in that Literotica is primarily a site for the publishing of original erotic writings), Literotica Survivor is a contest of one's writing skills.
I totally agree with you.

Quote:

I don't think this inability to write lesbian erotica, based on, as you've said, an inability to relate/understand the characters' motivations, is a valid compararison to others' inability to translate stories. I say this because I think the ability to stretch our mental boundaries to encompass the thoughts and feelings of characters so unlike our real-life selves is a big part of what the craft of writing is about. When we lack the ability/skill/desire/whatever to do this, I think we ought to be susceptible to disadvantage in a contest of writing, because, at least in this case, our skill as a writer has broken down.
I agree with this, too. Not everyone is bi-(or more so)-lingual. I took several years of Spanish in high school and college, but for the life of me I cannot write a story in Spanish. (And, I think it would be easier to translate an already written story into another language rather than to craft an entirely new story in said language.)

Quote:

Besides, in terms of an inability to mentally/emotionally relate, I'd wager everyone has category hangups--I mean, I know there's no way I can ever write a loving wives story, for example.
Exactly!

Quote:

That is to say, I have never written a gay male story but I might be persuaded to do so for the sake of the contest. My regular readership (imagine, for a moment, that I have one ) might not be interested in such a story (being that they're not the ones competing in a writing contest, I guess they're entitled to their hangups.) So by writing in this category, I'm cutting myself off from a potentially large base of my "regular" readers in the interest of furthering my standing. But it's my choice.
Once again, another wonderful point! I believe it was Chicklet who said something to the affect, in the Story Ideas board once, that she didn't like incest stories, per se, but that she needed one for the Survivor contest.
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Old 01-07-2003, 04:39 AM   #38
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I was just teaseing.

Heck, I made a lot of comments on this thread and the only one that gets a response is the one about points and the one where I'm jokeing!

PS, did you see how my immunity number was like totally skipped this week? Both the numbers on either side, but not mine!
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Old 01-07-2003, 04:41 AM   #39
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yeah it's so twisted and cruel sometimes. if only we could say "i'd like numbers 1 through 10, please."
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Old 01-07-2003, 05:56 AM   #40
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The Non-English Debate Has Moved

Anyone wishing to be heard had better click HERE

Chicklet

ps - i tried to delete as much of the debate from this thread as I could...please forgive any mistakes...is, like, my first act as a moderator. = )
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Old 01-07-2003, 06:41 AM   #41
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Talking Woo Hoo!

My two poems are up for Erotic and Non Erotic, and they've already got some votes!

Touch has a 4.0 and Snowfall has a 3.75

My review and my first time story are still pending.

Does a little happy dance for her frist six ponits.
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Old 01-07-2003, 09:12 AM   #42
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Count me in!



Chicklet - ditto except for Celebs... I have a lot more to go on Seducing Severus
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Old 01-07-2003, 01:17 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chicklet
I think we should keep track of our immunities, though. Shall we all make a post on the scoring thread like we did this year, and only add immunities to it until December?
I think that's a very good solution because the only other solution would be you keeping track and you would have to disqualify yourself for ethical reasons. And that just wouldn't be nice.

Maybe instead of having a premade hash of categories though, you could just make a scoring thread and people can officially sign up by making a post and then they can edit and add their own categories each time they get an immunity. It seems a lot easier than scrolling through tons of categories.
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Old 01-07-2003, 02:18 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by KillerMuffin

Maybe instead of having a premade hash of categories though, you could just make a scoring thread and people can officially sign up by making a post and then they can edit and add their own categories each time they get an immunity. It seems a lot easier than scrolling through tons of categories.
I'm sorry, maybe it's cause I'm sleepy and not looking forward to going to work, but I don't totally understand this. How would this compare to last years?
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Old 01-07-2003, 02:34 PM   #45
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ON THE QUESTION OF IMMUNITIES:

May I suggest they (IMMUNITIES) should be used to allow people to pass on the story categories they are either unable or unwilling to write about - they should not be used as a tactical "insurance system".

Like RS I am unwilling to put my novel out for free: and I would not wish to insult my readers by posting 5 or 6, 750 word chapters as a Novella. So I use an Immunity, should I at a later date be allowed to change my mind - I don't think so.

I would suggest that once an immunity has been claimed and used it should not be possible to remove or reallocate it.

Last year they had to be claimed and used the within the week Wed to Tues midnight that they were drawn - I suggest the same rule stands. Why have that rule if at a later date you can decide to delete them - I am not saying anyone did anything against the rules, but I do think it was "Gamesmanship" exploiting a loophole that should be blocked.

Points for "E"s

I think I am correct in reminding you that it was Laurel who was unhappy with the points for "E" - she recognized that making such decisions is very subjective, and her comments contributed towards the decision to stop giving points for "E"s

(This post is not aimed at any individua)l
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Old 01-07-2003, 03:37 PM   #46
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New Rules for 2003

This is where I think I'm going to draw the line. No caps on anything but poetry, but restrictions do doing all the work yourself and having each story you submit be an original.

Non-English
1) All Stories Must Be Originals
2) All Stories Must Be Translated By The Author

Audio
1) All Stories Must Be Originals
2) All Stories Must Be Read By The Author

Illustrated
1) All Stories Must Be Originals
2) All Stories Must Be Illustrated By The Author (pictures taken OF the author or BY the author or DRAWN by the author)


For a lot of these it'll be a matter of trust. How will we know that it's your voice? We won't. We just have to trust.

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Old 01-07-2003, 03:39 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by jon.hayworth
ON THE QUESTION OF IMMUNITIES:

May I suggest they (IMMUNITIES) should be used to allow people to pass on the story categories they are either unable or unwilling to write about - they should not be used as a tactical "insurance system".
Okay, what jon.hayworth says sounds 100% fair to me.

Let's say that when your number is drawn on Wed, you have until that Friday to claim it. You will say which category you will use it in, and from that point on that particular category will be closed to you. This is to prevent that tactical insurance system.

This sounds good to me. What do you all think?
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Old 01-07-2003, 03:45 PM   #48
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Scoreboards

I'm going to post the same scoreboard (or else very similar - I'm going to dink around with it after work tonight) that we used last year, but I'm not going to post it until December. Anyone who wants a scoreboard for their own personal use can PM me and I'll send it to you. (Personally, I'll be keeping track of my score all year long.)

On Wednesday I will post the rules and an immunity tracking thread, along with directions on how to use it.

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Old 01-07-2003, 04:44 PM   #49
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Chicklet,

As far as I am concerned your proposals are fine -

Warning my illustrated story may well be reduced to Matchstick men and women

Let the contest begin - May I suggest that you adopt KM's very good idea and post a scoring "pro-forma" at the beginning of the score-thread.

Have a nice day now - next step Who wants to be Major-Domo of the Chain Story?

jon
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Old 01-07-2003, 04:55 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chicklet

Okay, what jon.hayworth says sounds 100% fair to me.

Let's say that when your number is drawn on Wed, you have until that Friday to claim it. You will say which category you will use it in, and from that point on that particular category will be closed to you. This is to prevent that tactical insurance system.

This sounds good to me. What do you all think?
Sounds fine.
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