I need some feed back from those that do.

I recently won the Clitorides Award for BDSM. The link at the award site is Storiesonline, but a slightly different version is posted here as [K]&[T], LLC in Novelle/Novel.

This was not written this as a BDSM or D/s story. I wrote it as a romance in the Fifty Shades of Grey vein. Somehow a couple of scenes and a meet cute developed into half a million words, three novels, and an award.

What I am looking for is what any author wants, serious feedback on his characters. Do the characters work as people? Does their lifestyle choice mesh with their life? Are there problems I am not seeing, opportunities I am missing, details that are wrong?

I post this here, since I am particularly interested in how people that live the lifestyle view it. One of my choices was to place it away from the city, so that a full community was not available.

I am also willing to make the universe available to other writers. In particular I need someone to write the silent submissive. Her voice eludes me.

Give us a link. Lit makes for a shitty search experience.

Sure. This is the first chapter, which also makes a decent teaser.

http://www.literotica.com/s/kitty-and-teddy-llc-ch-01

Just go through the chapters. It is not linked up as a series. I never figured out how to do that.

Book 2 is K&T, LLC
Book 3 is [K][T] and Family

I still have trouble believing 3 weeks took three books to cover.

Well, I've read the first chapter.

And yeah...that sure is in the tradition of Fifty Shades.

That is not a compliment, I'm afraid. I'll let someone else explain the problem.


Other comments; stylistically, I am not a fan of the alternating-first-person-headed-headed by-the-characters name. I would far rather read a limited POV third person narrative that switches back and forth between the two heads.

And just because Fifty Shades was all about business people-- (which IMO is because Ann Rice needed her BDSM to take place in luxurious mansions not to mention royal places, which is because 'the Story of 'O'" happens in a country manor which we think must mean millionaires)

The truth is that not so many of us who do BDSM are particularly wealthy. It sometimes seems to me that our skill set precludes real wealth, and I personally would sooner suck on a banana slug than to trust my body and mind to a trust fund baby or a hard-edged business exec.

Just goes to show, huh? Different strokes and all that.

After failing to complete Fifty Shades of Grey reading another a romance in a similar vein sounds like a challenge that is beyond me. Writing a silent submissive is, however, within my limited capabilities. I thought a quite, introspective, serious, studious woman would be best, the kind who considers Paradise Lost light entertainment, adores the paintings of Kazimir Malevich and loves challenging classical music; after all her favourite composition is Cage's 4' 33''. So here follows the perfect dialogue for my silent submissive, "

pocketrocket said:

What I am looking for is what any author wants, serious feedback on his characters. Do the characters work as people? Does their lifestyle choice mesh with their life? Are there problems I am not seeing, opportunities I am missing, details that are wrong?

I post this here, since I am particularly interested in how people that live the lifestyle view it. One of my choices was to place it away from the city, so that a full community was not available.

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I enjoy BDSM very much, but I'm reluctant to call it a "lifestyle"; I probably spend as much time playing Euro board games as I do tying people up and hurting them, and I wouldn't call myself a Lifestyle Cataner either, so take that as you will.

After reading Chapter 1, I'm afraid I have to agree with Stella's criticisms. The frequent PoV switches are jarring, and it reads much more like 50SoG than my real-life experience of BDSM. If the sales for 50SoG are anything to go by, that may be a good thing for ratings... but since you asked for perspectives from BDSMers I'll give some of mine. In no particular order:

BDSM is not a Vulcan mind-meld. There are moments when it feels like that - most often with a familiar partner - but it doesn't instantly give two near-strangers a telepathic knowledge of one another. In particular:

- Surprising a near-stranger with a BDSM dungeon is a Really Bad Idea. They might freak out; they might call the cops. There's a place for surprises in BDSM but that comes after establishing a foundation of trust and rapport. A non-specific waiver and a few vague hints don't even begin to cover it. (For comparison, here's a checklist that one Sydney dungeon encouraged new clients to work from.)
- Professional dominatrix goes to a dungeon alone with a new guy and lets him handcuff her? Not bloody likely. He could be a psycho; he could just be a cowboy who doesn't have the first idea about BDSM safety. Handcuffs can easily cause damage if you don't know how to use them safely (google "handcuff neuropathy" if you're curious) and the fact that he doesn't bother to look for the key for some time after cuffing her is a bad sign.
- On top of that, letting him gag her? Without even establishing a way to signal distress? Hell no. If she's a professional or even an experienced amateur, she should have some knowledge of safety principles, and that's not going to dribble out of her mind the moment Mr. Talldark slaps a cuff on her.
- And within 23 minutes of walking into the studio he's reading her childhood secrets and spanking self-esteem into her? Really hard to buy.

I think one of the reasons I had difficulty with all this was that the intro doesn't sell me on the rapport between them. It says there is one, by the end of their first lunchtime meeting she already knows this one's different, but I don't get any hint of how that works. I don't even know what they've been talking about. All that makes it even harder to swallow the way things evolve between them.

Speaking of the self-esteem bit: I haven't read far enough to know whether this is a major theme of the story, but I'm getting a bit of a "BDSM = damaged psyche" vibe and that's become a cliché in BDSM fic. Yes, there are BDSMers who have psychological issues (doesn't everybody?) and a few even use BDSM to work through those issues. But it's not all deathly serious! So much of it is about having fun. Here's an entire blog devoted to that concept.

For a lengthy analysis of how 50SoG differs from real-life BDSM, I heartily recommend Cliff Pervocracy's deconstruction, which starts here.

On a side note, I had some difficulty with the corset. You describe it as being very tight and almost impossible to remove; you also have him undoing the hooks one at a time. Maybe Julian has some design trick I don't know of, but from my experience of corsets that doesn't make sense.

First, you're not likely to get a tight corset that fastens only with hooks. If you do that, you don't have any way to adjust the fit, and you're not likely to get a tight fit in the first place. Most designs include lacing or straps that can be used to tighten them up, much tighter than you can get with only the hooks and a stiff corset; that then provides an easy way to undo them again.

Second, the hooks are usually anchored to something rigid, which means they don't undo one at a time; you engage/disengage all of them at once. Whatever tension you have in your corset, the hooks have to carry that between them; if you were able to undo one at a time, you'd be increasing the force on the ones that remain, and eventually the last one would go spong and you'd be in for some expensive repairs.

I couldn't get further than wearing a worsted wool suit with a linen blouse, at which time my brain went "linen is a casual fabric; worsted wool is a business professional fabric".

*KABOOM*

I get the typeface detail, in a "presenting a very particular type" sort of way, but it instantly made me want to click off the page and get a visual off of Word [for 16 and 12 point type]. At which point I was tempted to start writing, instead of reading.

Aaaaaand the whole idea that a guy would walk into her "business" without any clue what it was, sign a waver (without any clue what he was "waiver-ing"), and completely flip a pro-Domme in one sentence...

The suspension of disbelief went bye bye and I couldn't make myself read any further.

I hate to be so negative, but the details were distracting, the switching from person to person too jarring, and the whole concept too out-of-left-field for me to buy into it.

And, apparently we're now well aware what $43.99 Shades of Gray looks like.

pocketrocket said:

Sure. This is the first chapter, which also makes a decent teaser.

http://www.literotica.com/s/kitty-and-teddy-llc-ch-01

Just go through the chapters. It is not linked up as a series. I never figured out how to do that.

Book 2 is K&T, LLC
Book 3 is [K][T] and Family

I still have trouble believing 3 weeks took three books to cover.

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I will be more than happy to read your story and tell you my thoughts and comments. But before I do this I must tell you I am very blunt and if I think something i will say it. I won't hold back. If you like I can pm my comments to you wish or I can post them here.

I'm not quite sure what genre you're trying to hit. For erotica, its not really erotic enough, and for romance, there's not enough emotional development in the characters.

If the heroine is going to let the guy just walk in and take over, well, why? What's going on with her? What's so special with this guy? Why him? Why now? Characters need to be engaging so the reader can invest.

Its tough to get much emotional depth, at least for romance, when writing in first person. I can't even think of any good examples offhand. I'm sure they're out there though. Perhaps a little research? Then see what you can do to give the characters more depth. Deep third POV is typically a better vehicle, though that would mean a complete re-write.

I'm a newbie at BDSM, but I know you need informed consent and limits and safe words. I don't think gagging is common in a professional dungeon. Certainly not for first time play. And, I agree with the other posters that a business wouldn't "surprise" someone with a dungeon. I get that you were going for the "cute" meet, and the unexpected role "flip" in the dungeon, but what you have doesn't really work for authenticity. You could still do the "cute" meet and "flip", using similar scenarios. Just do a little more character building and create a more realistic BDSM framework.

A word on POV changes. Great, no problem, but why so many? Ten, I think? And that doesn't even count the daughter's intro. It's rather jarring, and really makes it difficult to connect with the characters. You also tend to "overlap" the action with each POV shift. A writing technique I personally like, but not with every POV change. Maybe once for this much wordage?

Good luck with your writing!

kiwi91 said:

I will be more than happy to read your story and tell you my thoughts and comments. But before I do this I must tell you I am very blunt and if I think something i will say it. I won't hold back. If you like I can pm my comments to you wish or I can post them here.

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Thank you, that is what I was hoping for. I wish I had more input when I was writing the story (that chapter is the first of 40 or so).

I did intend this to be a highly unusual situation where two people read each other exceptionally well. Call it compatibility at first sight if you wish. Sean is authoritarian and pragmatic, but with a chivalrous streak. Sheila has trust issues but the she sees the honor bound side he tries to hide. One thing leads to another and three weeks later they are trying to make a baby (at 40,000 feet, but that's another story).

The central idea for the story grew out of my reaction to another story. A Dominant female shows her male neighbor her playroom and says, "Want to try?" My reaction at the time was, what if he wanted to try it on her? Given that as the central plot theme, I needed to come up with two characters that would make it possible.

Linen is not casual--it's textured. Business tops are typically smooth, so that is a valid criticism, but the combination could be made to work. Sean did not sign a waiver, or get full disclosure. That becomes an excuse for more meets.

I have not actually read "50 Shades", though I waded through half a book. The reference is iconic not specific. The story was not aiming for an audience, simply exploring the possibilities the characters presented. I call it a romance more because it ends in a wedding than for any other reason.

I, too, wish you had done your homework first. For us, it's pretty disturbing to read the things that we do made nearly unrecognisable.

Understand, that because BDSM is not socially acceptable, those of us who do it anyway have spent a significant amount of time working it out.
We really know our sexuality, it's not a surprise. And we have become comfortable talking about the details-- ESPECIALLY a pro woman. Coy is bad. We have to protect ourselves from harm and from criminal liability. If we have kids we risk losing them because we did something stupid. We can be blackmailed. yes, even now.


People in BDSM have spent decades-- beginning in the 50's-- working out the best ways to be safe and satisfied, and the information is everywhere on the internet now-- thank goodness. We are one of those resources in fact-- we field questions here every day from men and women who have put themselves into dicey situations, or who are considering something that could harm their partners.

A Dominant female shows her male neighbor her playroom and says, "Want to try?" My reaction at the time was, what if he wanted to try it on her?

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There would be some hot and heavy negotiation in a deepfried hurry, that's what would happen. Nobody points a whip at me without me giving them some lessons in what a whip feels like first.
(by the way, the term is "Dominant woman" or "female Dominant." You wouldn't say "her neighbor male" whould you?)

Anybody who springs handcuffs on someone without getting their specific consent first? Is taking a very real risk of criminal charges.

Any woman who walks a complete stranger into her dungeon-- her professional dungeon? Will know damn well to keep handcuffs out of his reach.

In fact, NO pro woman lets a complete stranger into her dungeon when she's all alone in there. There WILL be someone nearby as safety backup, for both of them.

Once they get to know each other, the precautions become less important, but there has been harming, and even death, when people get too complacent. Lives have been ruined.




My suggestion for a BDSM romance novel; Have two people meet cute, no problem. Have them mutually discover that they have BDSM in common. Have them get together with the foreknowledge that handcuffs are going to be part of the evening entertainment. Then you can get with the mindreading act and the rest of the plot.

The other scenario that is realistic and respectful of the community, is watching one or both of the partners discover their predilections, give each other permission, and evolve the dynamics that suit them best.

Or, remove the BDSM wrapper from your romance. their problems could fuel any vanilla romance.

Damn, 40 chapters. What a bummer.

I think we can all agree about the lack of safety in this story, but I've read some pretty good stories that also were lacking in safety. They are fantasy stories and you just don't stop the story action to negotiate how one is going to dominant another. The reader either just assumes there was negotiation not written into the story text, or the writer might add a disclaimer at the beginning of the story, to explain the lack of negotiations.

Of course, if you are looking for a documentary story of a real BDSM scene, you should include any and all negotiations, as well as safety measures. It's just not very likely that two people will meet on the street, then decide to proceed to a dungeon where one will bind the other for a session with a whip. That's not even done when two people know each other.

I won't say much about the story itself, because I didn't read enough. I did notice a lack of sexual energy and it seemed to be almost white washed in how everything was explained. I'm not saying it wouldn't be exciting reading for a more vanilla audience, but I do think someone "in the know" wouldn't be as interested. Is it just me or isn't the writing style vaguely similar to "The Story of O"?

Some more thoughts about this. First off, gonna say that I really appreciate you asking for feedback on this and sticking around to listen even when it isn't terribly positive. That's something I struggle to do myself.

pocketrocket said:

I did intend this to be a highly unusual situation where two people read each other exceptionally well. Call it compatibility at first sight if you wish.

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Hm. How can I put this?

Have you ever encountered one of those science-fiction stories where you could take away all the scientific elements without having much effect on the story? The sort that looks all science-y because it's full of spaceships and stuff, but when it gets down to it they've just written a Western and replaced the six-shooters with zap-guns, the trains with space liners, the marauding Native Americans with hostile aliens, and so on? It presents the readers with all the trappings of science, big sparky electrical things and rockets that go whoosh, but it's not really a science-y story?

That's sort of the feel I get from this, and from what I've seen of 50SoG. It feels like something built on a conventional romance model (strong-willed independent woman meets the one man who can pierce through her defences) with the trappings of BDSM (and of wealth) used to make it feel exotic.

But IRL - for me, at least - the trappings are the least part of it. I've had some very enjoyable scenes with no toys at all - just my body and hers - but the negotiation, figuring out one another's preferences and establishing trust and consent, the moment when I ask "is it okay if I hurt you?" and she says "yes", those things are at the heart of BDSM for me.

So when a story starts with bam, such a connection between the two that they don't need to do any of that - we can cut to the bit where he cuffs her without negotiation and she puts her life in his hands - I feel like it's skipped over the stuff that really is BDSM in favour of the stuff that looks like BDSM.

As a reader, I find that disappointing - same as when the sci-fi show turns out to be just cowboys with zap-guns - but it's not a huge deal; I can just stop reading and look for something else.

Where it becomes more of a problem is that other people who read these stories form their impressions of BDSM based on what they've read... which then means if people find out I'm into BDSM, they're liable to assume that I'm the sort of person who invites strangers to a dungeon and slaps handcuffs on them, or that my interest in BDSM must be symptomatic of some mental trauma.

Another thing that's a bit of a cliché in "BDSM" fiction is equating the roles people take in BDSM play to the roles they take elsewhere. Dom in the bedroom, alpha in the boardroom; in this story, our heroine switches to a submissive role in the dungeon at the same time she becomes emotionally dependent on him.

That certainly can happen in RL, but outside of 24/7 TPE relationships it's far from universal. There are plenty of confident subs and insecure needy doms (c'est moi!) and the fact that I'm the one with the keys to the handcuffs doesn't tell you much about who decides where we go for our holidays, if you get what I'm saying.

BTW, when I talk about negotiating consent, I don't mean everything has to be drawn up like a trade agreement. Some people like that stuff - I've seen one contract that got down into the detail of who's allowed to use which pet names - but it can be very informal. I did a bit of this in my short Counting To Eleven, as an example of how it can go.

To the OP, by the Lit voting, most of your stories are well liked. Many have the coveted red H. But, your reading audience must not be from this group. At least not for this particular story. Still, an adoring audience is an adoring audience. The author of 50 shades has made quite a bit off of her stories, so I wouldn't take the negative comments in this thread too seriously.

I didn't read your story, OP (I'm really, really picky about my erotica, and the barest pre-requisite requires one partner to be at least twice the size of the other), but I do have to put my personal opinion out there as it seems to be relevant: assumptions, shots-in-the-dark that happen to be spot on, and mind-reading, to me, are at the core of mainstream vanilla sexuality and don't have much of a place in BDSM. If a guess is being made by one partner to act on another without talking first, then we understand and accept that for what it is: "dub-con" or flat out "non-con". Not "romance".

DVS said:

To the OP, by the Lit voting, most of your stories are well liked. Many have the coveted red H. But, your reading audience must not be from this group. At least not for this particular story. Still, an adoring audience is an adoring audience. The author of 50 shades has made quite a bit off of her stories, so I wouldn't take the negative comments in this thread too seriously.

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This story, in its entirety is an award winner. That said, the competition sucked.

I was more interested in feedback on what happens between the scenes, rather than the scene itself.

You've written moe than one multi-chapter work with BDSM-related action and you're only now asking for advice from people who understand BDSM? Isn't that a bit like the schoolgirl who chose to marry her professor on the first day or college: putting the heart before the course?

DVS said:

To the OP, by the Lit voting, most of your stories are well liked. Many have the coveted red H. But, your reading audience must not be from this group. At least not for this particular story. Still, an adoring audience is an adoring audience. The author of 50 shades has made quite a bit off of her stories, so I wouldn't take the negative comments in this thread too seriously.

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This, definitely. Your Lit scores are good, and you won an award. The story obviously held reader interest. And, some of the big criticisms here revolve around the lack of BDSM protocols, which would be less of an issue in future chapters once guidelines have been set.

I assume you're thinking of publishing, traditional or indy? If so, have you considered a critique group? Most areas have a writers' group, sometimes several. Attend a few meetings and find critique partners. Or you can join one online. Either way, it should take you over the hump and get you ready for prime time.

I don't see a problem with the story line, except for BDSM inconsistent behavior. But that should be easily remedied. Why not start by going through the BDSM library (sticky at the top of the page)? I read through most of the links when I first began posting and found it quite helpful. There are also several books listed in Stella Omega's signature line that give you a working foundation for "kink".

There are a couple of triads in the BDSM community.
- Communication, Limits, Safewords
- Safe, Sane, Consensual
Try to stay within those guidelines if you want to draw less criticism.

The biggest problem I see is the, "tell", not, "show", writing style. Kind of a no-no in contemporary fiction. Though people still do it, and make money. (Not sure what the 50SOG style is, not having read it.)

There are a couple of links you might find useful that I'll PM you with once I dig them up.

Emmanuelle83 said:

You've written moe than one multi-chapter work with BDSM-related action and you're only now asking for advice from people who understand BDSM? Isn't that a bit like the schoolgirl who chose to marry her professor on the first day or college: putting the heart before the course?

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It is all one work, a trilogy, covering the three weeks between meeting and wedding night. I am currently writing the honeymoon, which is vanilla so far. I did pay some attention to safety, though it does not seem so when the central character throws herself at the first man that challenges her. Sean is much more impressed when Sheila tells him her apartment number after the first date (no sex of any sort).

As you state the issue, it does seem a bit off. I actually came for some more nuanced feedback on living life between scenes. Even the first, much criticized scene is not about the cuffs, the flogger or the bustier, but about letting another person through the defenses. In Sheila's case it is more like grabbing him and dragging him inside. Yes, it is very like a girl that chose to marry her professor the first day. That is quite apt

Also, the BDSM content is not why I was writing the story. The characters spoke to me. I tried to tell their story. You have not met the sister who is trying hard to be a stereotypical lesbian bull or the anthropology student that dives into the group of Amish. I did write one true submissive. I would really like to get further inside her head.

Wait... they MEET and GET MARRIED in the space of 3 weeks?

CutieMouse said:

Wait... they MEET and GET MARRIED in the space of 3 weeks?

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It's a long story. That's why it takes three books.

Besides, she wants a baby.

PS Don't threaten to write. Do it.

CutieMouse said:

Wait... they MEET and GET MARRIED in the space of 3 weeks?

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Ah, well that solves all the problems, doesn't it? Everyone knows that BDSM relationships grow like Chia Pets.

pocketrocket said:

It is all one work, a trilogy, covering the three weeks between meeting and wedding night. I am currently writing the honeymoon, which is vanilla so far. I did pay some attention to safety, though it does not seem so when the central character throws herself at the first man that challenges her. Sean is much more impressed when Sheila tells him her apartment number after the first date (no sex of any sort).


As you state the issue, it does seem a bit off. I actually came for some more nuanced feedback on living life between scenes. Even the first, much criticized scene is not about the cuffs, the flogger or the bustier, but about letting another person through the defenses. In Sheila's case it is more like grabbing him and dragging him inside. Yes, it is very like a girl that chose to marry her professor the first day. That is quite apt

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See-- for us, the metal handcuffs and the flogger is what rings the uh-oh bell. That's not letting someone through one's defenses, that's stupidly putting oneself in a position of genuine physical helplessness. It's a sign that the writer hasn't thought things out much.

Say you were a car mechanic and you read a story about car mechanics, and in the first chapter the guy stuck his hand into the engine compartment to stop the fan. You'd be slamming your head on the desk. You'd kind of hate to think what comes next.

Unfortunately, that's why the first scene is the one being criticised. I couldn't read the second one. Give me a chapter that has some of the living life between scenes, and I'll try to evaluate that for you.

Also, the BDSM content is not why I was writing the story. The characters spoke to me. I tried to tell their story. You have not met the sister who is trying hard to be a stereotypical lesbian bull or the anthropology student that dives into the group of Amish. I did write one true submissive. I would really like to get further inside her head.

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If the bolded is nuanced-- that could be a terrific story on its own.

The student-- reminds me of you right now.

WE have several submissives who post here, you might find it useful to talk to them.

midwestyankee said:

Ah, well that solves all the problems, doesn't it? Everyone knows that BDSM relationships grow like Chia Pets.

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Try the first date (no sex, no bondage). Go down to chapter 4.

http://www.literotica.com/s/kitty-and-teddy-llc-ch-02?page=2