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Old 03-22-2014, 02:40 PM   #1
Wondering_Newb
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Is (an extreme?) interest in a BDSM lifestyle a psychological problem?

Alright.
  • First let's all take a deep breath.
  • What you may mistaken as arrogance is only honest opinion.
  • I am not trolling.
  • Try to be fair to the points I and other posters make in this thread.
  • It's all a learning experience and I may (am) probably wrong. I've not really picked a side here, I've got no "dog in the game" or an agenda. But since the point that it is a psychological problem will be in a great minority in this post I will thus act the devils advocate and try to a good job at it until or if it becomes impossible or completely uninteresting.

First time that I ever write something like this in a thread but since it is my sincere wish it stay open and that people discuss with an open mind I thought it would be a good idea!


Well I am still almost as much of a newbee here as when I registered but I guess I've become a bit more educated in the matter than before. I'm also more interested.

Now here are a few things and people excluded from this:
People looking for a endorphine high
Light BDSM switching in couples to explore their trust levels with each other.
Possibly individuals seeking to broaden their horizons.
Individuals with submissive or dominant traits expressing those and thus identifying with this sexual trait*




So what are we left with?
Well the fourth exception* is perhaps the trickiest. Where does one draw the line? To define the line let's start looking at the in my opinion most extreme examples:

From worst down to the mildest form of possible psychological issue:

People getting triggered by any type of behavior with humiliates them continously. Indeed they seek humiliation for themselves and not in the sense of being a humble/submissive individual.

Purely sadistic individuals that possibly have sociopathic strains in them. Their sadism stems not only for the desire of control and power but from the suffering of others. Actual suffering. They are perhaps interested in "breaking" their subjects instead of making them stronger. Just enough self control or intelligence not to go on a rape, murder or torture rampage on unwilling victims.

People whose submission is brought about from depression, solitude, a position from which submission may be the only way out.

Generally the cuckhold-lifestyle. It mixes several aspects of this but the most puzzling part for me is the search of a so called "Bull" for the supposedly dominant female who then goes on to humiliate her.

24/7 relationships of strictly enforced rules. Why not submission or dominance when both feel like being in that mood? Slightly unhealthy. Nobody is something all the time.

Well those are the subjects I have now. I might add a few more later. Feel free to add yours. Both exceptions and examples.
It seems to me that all these types could have a proper diagonisis put on them. Control Freaks/Obsessive behavior on the 24/7 aspect and then worse and worse diagnosis as we move furhter up the subjects/examples.

It seems destructive. Now this may sound weird in the context but many of these I would put into the same category of the people in the Cave in Platos allegory about the Cave or what ever variance of the invisible chain or the slave that never moves outside of the chains length and so never knows he is a slave.

Slavery in this example is not related to BDSM. But I know what some of you may think: What if they want to be a slave?

Well...That's what we are discussing here. Edit:That's actually an interesting example. Can someone really wish for to be a permanent slave and have a completely healthy mind not spoiled or distraught by experiences before or during the relationship? Here I can understand that someone would want a slave (different from an equal but submissive partner) but wouldn't that demand some type of egomania or at least issues with ones ability to feel empathy?

Cheers.

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Old 03-22-2014, 03:42 PM   #2
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Actually, there are psychological disorders known as Sexual Sadism Disorder and Sexual Masochism Disorder.

Sexual Masochism Disorder only exists if it cause significant clinical distress and impairs everyday life. Like one MUST be used and will miss work, school, etc so they can be used.

Sexual Sadism Disorder exists if the person has attempted to do this with a non consenting person.

For more information, look up the criteria in the DSM-5.
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Old 03-22-2014, 04:00 PM   #3
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Yup I am aware of this but I wanted to discuss it with you.
But should the limits be so broad?

What if someone as per example 3 meets someone as per example 2.
Would the sexual sadist not fall under such a diagnosis purely because their subject is willing?

What about the slave concept or the 24/7 relationship issue?
The issues need not be psychiatric as you describe them but psychological instead.
Even if it is not a diagnosis, can it ever be considered healthy and if so why?

(Meaning that certain events or circumstances have drawn these two possibly unhealthy individuals together into an even unhealthier relationship...or possible if they are intelligent and open enough into some form of mutual healing?)



PS: There used to be specific topics in DSM dealing with sadistic or self-defeating personalities, these are now removed and only dealt within the scope you mention and only extend to the scope of the previous terms if mixed in with say anti-social behaviors such as mentioned sociopathy. Yet "breaking" someone seems to partly accepted in some BDSM circles, why?

IV lists the sexual sadist as someone who enjoys the things I mentioned regardless of if its consentual or not. Could you source V for me please?

http://www.minddisorders.com/Py-Z/Sexual-sadism.html

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Old 03-22-2014, 04:06 PM   #4
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I snipped out bits and pieces of the OP, hunting for the meat & potatoes of the post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondering_Newb View Post
A[*]It's all a learning experience and I may (am) probably wrong. I've not really picked a side here, I've got no "dog in the game" or an agenda. But since the point that it is a psychological problem will be in a great minority in this post I will thus act the devils advocate and try to a good job at it until or if it becomes impossible or completely uninteresting.
So, are you saying that people who participate in BDSM are mentally ill?

Quote:
Now here are a few things and people excluded from this:
People looking for a endorphine high
Light BDSM switching in couples to explore their trust levels with each other.
Possibly individuals seeking to broaden their horizons.
Individuals with submissive or dominant traits expressing those and thus identifying with this sexual trait*
It appears that you're saying the above are "okay"; why are these things alright in your view, but nothing outside of them?

Aside - not all dominance and submission is based on sex.

Quote:
So what are we left with?
Well the fourth exception* is perhaps the trickiest. Where does one draw the line? To define the line let's start looking at the in my opinion most extreme examples:

From worst down to the mildest form of possible psychological issue:
You do realize that BDSM was removed completely from the DSM-V, right?

Quote:
People getting triggered by any type of behavior with humiliates them continuously. Indeed they seek humiliation for themselves and not in the sense of being a humble/submissive individual.
Why is it wrong, and what (in your opinion) is dangerous about adults engaging in consensual erotic humiliation?

Quote:
Purely sadistic individuals that possibly have sociopathic strains in them. Their sadism stems not only for the desire of control and power but from the suffering of others. Actual suffering. They are perhaps interested in "breaking" their sbujects instead of making them stronger. Just enough self control or intelligence not to go on a rape, murder or torture rampage on unwilling victims.
Abusive people exist; being into BDSM, doesn't increase or decrease the odds of encountering an abusive person. When the topic of "breaking" comes up, it tends to be shot down. Quickly. The most common phrase used is "don't break your toys, because once they're broken you can't play with them anymore."

Quote:
People whose submission is brought about from depression, solitude, a position from which submission may be the only way out.
And there are people who make stupid decisions based on depression/etc, who never get involved in BDSM. Unhealthy, emotionally damaged people exist. And?

Quote:
Generally the cuckhold-lifestyle. It mixes several aspects of this but the most puzzling part for me is the search of a so called "Bull" for the supposedly dominant female who then goes on to humiliate her.
You don't understand cuckoldry. You don't have to understand it, because you aren't interested in experiencing it. However, your lack of understanding, does not mean that the people who do understand it, or are interested in it, are being damaged by it.

Quote:
24/7 relationships of strictly enforced rules. Why not submission or dominance when both feel like being in that mood? Slightly unhealthy. Nobody is something all the time.
Why not feel like being married just when you're in the mood? Or being a parent? Why not be a parent just when you're in the mood?

I identify my relationships (when in one) as 24/7. Why? Because when I'm in a power based relationship, I always "belong" to my lover [dominant]. The same way I am always a mother, even if my kids aren't by my side. Or I'm always a friend, even if I haven't gotten to talk to my fried that day.

Quote:
Well those are the subjects I have now. I might add a few more later. Feel free to add yours. Both exceptions and examples.
I do appreciate the attempt to understand something you don't understand, but maybe instead of dictating what XYZ is, it would be more productive to ask people about their interests and experience...

Quote:
It seems to me that all these types could have a proper diagonisis put on them. Control Freaks/Obsessive behavior on the 24/7 aspect and then worse and worse diagnosis as we move furhter up the subjects/examples.
And again - the DSM-V removed BDSM; it is no longer considered a mental health issue (unless it is interfering with a persona's ability to function)

Quote:
It seems destructive. Now this may sound weird in the context but many of these I would put into the same category of the people in the Cave in Platos allegory about the Cave or what ever variance of the invisible chain or the slave that never moves outside of the chains length and so never knows he is a slave.

Slavery in this example is not related to BDSM. But I know what some of you may think: What if they want to be a slave?
Is traditional marriage destructive? Because to most people my relationships look much more like a traditional 1950s marriage, than some sick perverted kinky thing.

Quote:
Well...That's what we are discussing here. Edit:That's actually an interesting example. Can someone really wish for to be a permanent slave and have a completely healthy mind not spoiled or distraught by experiences before or during the relationship?
I hate to keep using this analogy, because I actually don't believe in the institution of marriage, but would you say the same thing to someone who believed in the sanctity of marriage for life?

Quote:
Here I can understand that someone would want a slave (different from an equal but submissive partner) but wouldn't that demand some type of egomania or at least issues with ones ability to feel empathy?

Cheers.
What makes you presume dominants don't feel empathy?

BTW - it's somewhat insulting to me, that
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Old 03-22-2014, 04:15 PM   #5
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Cutie, I have the DSM-5 right next to me, and I have read it extensively. Sexual Sadism Disorder and Sexual Masochism Disorder ARE listed, under paraphillic disorders, along with Exhibitionistic Disorder, Voyeuristic Disorder, and others.
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Old 03-22-2014, 04:27 PM   #6
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The honest answer is that any behavior can be a psychological problem if it is taken to an extreme. The same can be said of fetishism. While certain aspects of BDSM may be taken from the DSM-5, there are still real disorders that relate to individual aspects of BDSM in the DSM-5. I've taken classes about sexuality in humans, and we went over the DSM-5 regarding these aspects.

To answer your question, there are aspects of the BDSM lifestyle that could be considered a psychological problem, but only if they are taken to the extreme, like Celestialdragon explained.
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Old 03-22-2014, 04:27 PM   #7
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Hio and thanks for your answers!
Quote:
So, are you saying that people who participate in BDSM are mentally ill?
Possibly. I am asking if they are. Heck I have some deviant thoughts and light experiences and I am interested in the psychology of it all. Or more precisely where healthy behavior changes into unhealthy.

This if you equate mentally ill with having a psychiatric OR psychological issue.

Quote:
It appears that you're saying the above are "okay"; why are these things alright in your view, but nothing outside of them?
Yes, I consider these things a little bit more healthy and the first thing completely rational (although I'm not into it at all).

Quote:
Aside - not all dominance and submission is based on sex.
Exacly my point! They have submissive and dominant traits and thus indentify with this sexually as well. "BDSM" being a sexual trait (imo) but having aspects to it that stretch far beyond sexuality. Then again, if one has a submissive or dominant personalit without being interested in the sexual aspect much or at all then perhaps the label is just incorrect but easy to use to find partners outside of vanilla frames/constraints?

Basically I think we're on the same page here. Semantics.

Quote:
Why is it wrong, and what (in your opinion) is dangerous about adults engaging in consensual erotic humiliation?
I'm not sure if it's wrong, possibly somewhat unhealthy if it is derived from and strengthens or enforces negative qualities? (Back to: Are people who participate in said activities possibly mentally ill in some way? Let's remember that we agree on that it need not only be sexual/erotic.)


Quote:
And there are people who make stupid decisions based on depression/etc, who never get involved in BDSM. Unhealthy, emotionally damaged people exist. And?
How large is this group do you think? Can a person with previous lingering issues still crave this cause of them despite appearing to be fully healthy and happy now? Can this cause future issues then?

Quote:
You don't understand cuckoldry. You don't have to understand it, because you aren't interested in experiencing it. However, your lack of understanding, does not mean that the people who do understand it, or are interested in it, are being damaged by it.
Well I'm trying to understand it. Will you help me?

Quote:
Why not feel like being married just when you're in the mood? Or being a parent? Why not be a parent just when you're in the mood?

I identify my relationships (when in one) as 24/7. Why? Because when I'm in a power based relationship, I always "belong" to my lover [dominant]. The same way I am always a mother, even if my kids aren't by my side. Or I'm always a friend, even if I haven't gotten to talk to my fried that day.
Fair point, there's a reason why this is on the bottom of the list. But can you understand the fact that you are not punished if you for one day or one week aren't a great mother or feel you need some alone time in a marriage? Can you see the difference?

Quote:
And again - the DSM-V removed BDSM; it is no longer considered a mental health issue (unless it is interfering with a persona's ability to function)
Seems so. Why?


Quote:
I hate to keep using this analogy, because I actually don't believe in the institution of marriage, but would you say the same thing to someone who believed in the sanctity of marriage for life?
What is so sacred and inviolable with it though? Haven't we for thousands of years fought against it? Is it only the fact if someone does it volountarily or not that is the issue? In that case see my second reply as an analogy to this (which concerns itself with sexual sadism) in the same way you presented your analogy of marriage.


Quote:
What makes you presume dominants don't feel empathy?
I don't. I said "Issues with" and I contrasted a slave holder to someone simply being a dominant person in a relationship. There is a contrast between submissive and slave even in BDSM terminology. I understand the prior I am not sure I understand (support) the later.


Quote:
BTW - it's somewhat insulting to me, that
I appologize for having insulted you, it is not my intention. Try not to take my debate personally.

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Old 03-22-2014, 04:29 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celestialdragon View Post
Cutie, I have the DSM-5 right next to me, and I have read it extensively. Sexual Sadism Disorder and Sexual Masochism Disorder ARE listed, under paraphillic disorders, along with Exhibitionistic Disorder, Voyeuristic Disorder, and others.
And what is the distinction between those disorders and BDSM?

Those things become disorders WHEN THEY INTERFERE WITH A PERSONS ABILITY TO FUNCTION.

In my experience, very very few people who participate in BDSM, do so to the detriment of having a job, a home, feed themselves or have a relationship with friends and family. If their participation in BDSM gets to a point where they aren't able to keep a job, pay their bills, feed themselves, or have relationships with friends and family - there is a mental health issue going on, that may or may not have anything to do with BDSM.
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Old 03-22-2014, 04:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celestialdragon View Post
Cutie, I have the DSM-5 right next to me, and I have read it extensively. Sexual Sadism Disorder and Sexual Masochism Disorder ARE listed, under paraphillic disorders, along with Exhibitionistic Disorder, Voyeuristic Disorder, and others.
I know that they are listed.

I was curious on if the later is only valid if it concerns unwilling subjects.
I didn't think you were spewing lies, I wanted a source so I could compare and thought you might have one readily available! : )

For it is not the case for IV.

And if so what is your opinion of the change?


edit: Hahaha I thought you were using certain terminology and intended the post to me! My bad.

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Old 03-22-2014, 04:31 PM   #10
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To answer your question, people who partake in the BDSM lifestyle are not mentally ill. It's a personal preference for these people, and there is nothing wrong with that. It would be like saying people who partake in only the missionary position are mentally ill. It seems an extreme thing, but it's really just a preference of individuals. Only if things are taken to an extreme that could harm oneself or others would it constitute a problem.


If you'd like, I can give you links to sites with more information to explain these things to you in more depth?
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Old 03-22-2014, 04:32 PM   #11
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Sure, fire away bro!
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Old 03-22-2014, 04:33 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CutieMouse View Post
And what is the distinction between those disorders and BDSM?

Those things become disorders WHEN THEY INTERFERE WITH A PERSONS ABILITY TO FUNCTION.

In my experience, very very few people who participate in BDSM, do so to the detriment of having a job, a home, feed themselves or have a relationship with friends and family. If their participation in BDSM gets to a point where they aren't able to keep a job, pay their bills, feed themselves, or have relationships with friends and family - there is a mental health issue going on, that may or may not have anything to do with BDSM.
Cutie, what celestial is saying is that aspects of BDSM are still in the DSM-5. Those aspects are for when that person goes to extremes. It may or may not relate to BDSM, but to say that BDSM was removed completely from the DSM is incorrect. It was just broken up and viewed more specifically.
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Old 03-22-2014, 04:33 PM   #13
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If you would have read my response, I actually said that, again, I read it FROM the DSM-5.

Please read AND comprehend before flying off the handle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutieMouse View Post
And what is the distinction between those disorders and BDSM?

Those things become disorders WHEN THEY INTERFERE WITH A PERSONS ABILITY TO FUNCTION.

In my experience, very very few people who participate in BDSM, do so to the detriment of having a job, a home, feed themselves or have a relationship with friends and family. If their participation in BDSM gets to a point where they aren't able to keep a job, pay their bills, feed themselves, or have relationships with friends and family - there is a mental health issue going on, that may or may not have anything to do with BDSM.
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Old 03-22-2014, 04:36 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondering_Newb View Post
Sure, fire away bro!
https://fetlife.com/

One of the largest BDSM websites out there, with plenty of information, and people who can talk to you more in-depth

http://www.xeromag.com/fvbdlinks.html

A good site to find more information.

http://www.missnya.com/BDSM-Information.html

Also has a large amount of information for you to view.
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Old 03-22-2014, 04:37 PM   #15
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Thanks. Do you have any opposing views at all supporting the half-hearted assertions I am making?
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Old 03-22-2014, 04:40 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondering_Newb View Post
Thanks. Do you have any opposing views at all supporting the half-hearted assertions I am making?
I don't. You are educating yourself on this, and as long as you are open to this, I am going to let you learn these things as you can, and make your own informed decisions on things. I am not very knowledgeable about the BDSM lifestyle as I would like to be, but I wouldn't think to force my thoughts and ideas onto you if I was, just seek to help educate you like you asked.

My only opposing view is that people who participate in BDSM aren't mentally ill. It is a lifestyle choice, just like marriage, or even jobs. To say that someone is mentally ill for choosing what they like is a little harsh, don't you think?
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Old 03-22-2014, 04:43 PM   #17
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Well yeah. I'm a bit interested out of this from a sociological point of view as well so any info is good info.

Anyway thanks for the links, I'll surely check the two later ones out.
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Old 03-22-2014, 04:51 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondering_Newb View Post
Hio and thanks for your answers!

Possibly. I am asking if they are. Heck I have some deviant thoughts and light experiences and I am considering if going further is wrong and if I have issues I have to deal with for even considering it.

This if you equate mentally ill with having a psychiatric OR psychological issue.
If something prevents you from being a productive, functioning adult - it tends to fall under the unhealthy category. It doesn't matter if that something is BDSM, collecting newspapers, or owning cats.

Being into BDSM, doesn't automatically mean you are engaging in unhealthy behavior.

Quote:
Yes, I consider these things a little bit more healthy and the first thing completely rational (although I'm not into it at all).
The things you listed were broad and vague, IMO.

1) I like endorphin highs; some of the ways I achieve them would not meet your "approval".
2) I have ZERO interest in switching. I've done it before, and it was a horrible experience. It was also one of the unhealthiest D/s relationships I ever had.
3) You are okay with people "broadening their horizons", but what if during that process they discover things about themselves you personally think are disturbing and have a problem?
4) I don't understand the issue with people identifying as dominant or submissive. Why would that be a bad thing, and how do you believe it would it interfere in their life?

Quote:
Exacly my point! They have submissive and dominant traits and thus indentify with this sexually as well. "BDSM" being a sexual trait (imo) but having aspects to it that stretch far beyond sexuality. Then again, if one has a submissive or dominant personalit without being interested in the sexual aspect much or at all then perhaps the label is just incorrect but easy to use to find partners outside of vanilla frames/constraints?

Basically I think we're on the same page here. Semantics.
This whole bit just confuses me...

Quote:
I'm not sure if it's wrong, possibly somewhat unhealthy if it is derived from and strengthens or enforces negative qualities? (Back to: Are they possibly mentally ill in some way? Let's remember, it need not only be sexual/erotic.)
As someone who enjoys being humbled, I don't understand the argument that it reinforces negative qualities. For myself, it takes me out of the "norm" for a bit, allowing me to enjoy the "norm" all that much more.

Quote:
How large is this group do you think? Can a person with previous lingering issues still crave this cause of them despite appearing to be fully healthy and happy now? Can this cause future issues then?
How many people are walking through life, with unresolved issues that could really seriously benefit from a few years in therapy?

Basically - the same number of people getting into unhealthy relationships, that aren't based on power dynamics.

Quote:
Well I'm trying to understand it. Will you help me?
Nope. If you are really interested in understanding cuckoldry, research it.

Quote:
Fair point, there's a reason why this is on the bottom of the list. But can you understand the fact that you are not punished if you for one day or one week aren't a great mother or feel you need some alone time in a marriage? Can you see the difference?
I don't enter relationships that include punishment dynamics. If I screw something up, we discuss it as adults and move on.

Quote:
Seems so. Why?
Because somewhere along the line, people who write the book realized that the majority of people who are engaged in BDSM activities are no more or less mentally disturbed than people who aren't.

Quote:
What is so sacred and inviolable with it though? Haven't we for thousands of years fought against it? Is it only the fact if someone does it volountarily or not that is the issue? In that case see my second reply as an analogy to this (which concerns itself with sexual saddism) in the same way you presented your analogy of marriage.
My argument was that there are people who believe that once someone is married, it is for life; some of those people end up in marriages that last 60+ years, until one (or both) die. What is the difference between that (which is generally celebrated by society) and the believe that a M/s relationship is until death do them part?

quote]
I don't. I said "Issues with" and I contrasted a slave holder to someone simply being a dominant person in a relationship. There is a contrast between submissive and slave even in BDSM terminology. I understand the prior I am not sure I understand (support) the later. [quote]

It's shorthand, IMO. both negotiate their relationships at the beginning; submissives tend to retain my "rights" than slaves. However, I've seen people identifying as "slave" who retain similar "rights" as submissives, and I've seen people identifying as "submissive" who retain fewer "rights" than slaves.
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Old 03-22-2014, 04:57 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celestialdragon View Post
If you would have read my response, I actually said that, again, I read it FROM the DSM-5.

Please read AND comprehend before flying off the handle.
I'm not flying off the handle.

The DSM-V is specific about it only being an issue if it prevents someone from functioning. I don't understand why the points made are being presented as problematic, as long as the people involved are functioning. And if people are functioning, why question their ability to do so?
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Old 03-22-2014, 04:58 PM   #20
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I'm not flying off the handle.

The DSM-V is specific about it only being an issue if it prevents someone from functioning. I don't understand why the points made are being presented as problematic, as long as the people involved are functioning. And if people are functioning, why question their ability to do so?
Should we not be worried about someone who is potentially causing someone else harm, or themselves harm? OR should we just let them continue to be destructive/self-destructive? Would you take the same view with an alcoholic?
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Old 03-22-2014, 05:00 PM   #21
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I'm not so sure that it's simply about being a productive, functioning adult. I think people who have problems with empathy and go through life can attain great positions of status and wealth without even hurting others. But they remain close and can be triggered. It would be better for them to try and resolve those issues (sometimes they are genetic and can't be easily resolved).

So that doesn't cut it for me to be label something as "healthy".

Generally broadening horizons means experiencing different things. Like going hungry to know poverty even if you are rich ( a common element in many religions ). Apparently you've already broadened your horizons and feel that you fall into the category of a submissive personality and you're not interested in switching. I'm not saying that this is a disorder or even that it is negative. Some people feel obliged to lead others to be led and many more stand somewhere in the middle, at least on a personal level.

Not being invovled in a relationship with a punishment dynamic seems like a good start but why 24/7? Why the need to explain yourself every time you don't feel "up for it"?

I can't really do an analysis of you on the humiliation thing. If you say it isn't enforcing any negative traits within you, not driving you into reclusiveness or lowering your self-esteem then I have to believe you. Why do you think you get off on it?

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Old 03-22-2014, 05:06 PM   #22
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Should we not be worried about someone who is potentially causing someone else harm, or themselves harm? OR should we just let them continue to be destructive/self-destructive? Would you take the same view with an alcoholic?
Yes. However, I don't believe that everyone who consumes alcohol, is at risk of becoming an alcoholic. I don't even believe that someone who has a drink every night is an alcoholic. I don't worry about alcoholism if I'm at a friends house, and see a really well stocked bar.

I do worry about alcoholism, when they are getting drunk on a regular basis. Can't focus on work, because they need a few beers over lunch. Want to drive drunk, etc.

That is why BDSM is no longer in DSM-V, but Sexual SAdism Disorder, Sexual Masochism Disorder, Exhibitionistic Disorder and Voyeuristic Disorder ARE still listed. There is a point at which something crosses over to the "disorder" category, which is defined by professionals. Until it becomes a disorder, or the threat of becoming a disorder is prime, I don't believe it is my business to tell someone how to experience their body, their sexuality, or their [healthy, functioning] relationship.
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Old 03-22-2014, 05:08 PM   #23
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Yes. However, I don't believe that everyone who consumes alcohol, is at risk of becoming an alcoholic. I don't even believe that someone who has a drink every night is an alcoholic. I don't worry about alcoholism if I'm at a friends house, and see a really well stocked bar.

I do worry about alcoholism, when they are getting drunk on a regular basis. Can't focus on work, because they need a few beers over lunch. Want to drive drunk, etc.

That is why BDSM is no longer in DSM-V, but Sexual SAdism Disorder, Sexual Masochism Disorder, Exhibitionistic Disorder and Voyeuristic Disorder ARE still listed. There is a point at which something crosses over to the "disorder" category, which is defined by professionals. Until it becomes a disorder, or the threat of becoming a disorder is prime, I don't believe it is my business to tell someone how to experience their body, their sexuality, or their [healthy, functioning] relationship.
That isn't what Celestial is saying though. She was saying that there are aspects that are still listed in the DSM for when those situations pop up. It's not saying that you should refrain from BDSM. All the DSM-5 is doing now is providing for when those situations arise that need to be handled.
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Old 03-22-2014, 05:12 PM   #24
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Still a bit curious on the consenting vs non-consenting thing tho.
Reading a short factsheet about it I can't come to the same conlusion as she.
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Old 03-22-2014, 05:16 PM   #25
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@CM

I'm not so sure that it's simply about being a productive, functioning adult. I think people who have problems with empathy and go through life can attain great positions of status and wealth without even hurting others. But they remain close and can be triggered. It would be better for them to try and resolve those issues (sometimes they are genetic and can't be easily resolved).

So that doesn't cut it for me to be label something as "healthy".
I met someone the other week who was very open about the fact that he lacks empathy. His way of dealing with it? To accept that about himself, be very open and honest about the trait with potential partners/ friends/ family, and let everyone know they'd have to ASK for empathy, if they needed it.

Sounds pretty functional and healthy, to me.

Quote:
Generally broadening horizons means experiencing different things. Like going hungry to know poverty even if you are rich ( a common element in many religions ). Apparently you've already broadened your horizons and feel that you fall into the category of a submissive personality and you're not interested in switching. I'm not saying that this is a disorder or even that it is negative. Some people feel obliged to lead others to be led and many more stand somewhere in the middle, at least on a personal level.

Not being invovled in a relationship with a punishment dynamic seems like a good start but why 24/7? Why the need to explain yourself every time you don't feel "up for it"?
Because at the heart of the matter, it's still a relationship. And I don't know of many successful relationships that are part time.

Why do you presume I would need to explain myself if I didn't feel "up for it"? Why presume that I'd allow myself to get involved with someone who wasn't capable of meeting my needs, as well? I had a [dominant] lover once, who upon seeing how stressful work had gotten, ordered me to reduce my hours to a 4 day work week, and paid the difference in salary that I lost. He'd also insist on making me dinner once in a while, even though it made me uncomfortable for him to be "waiting on" me.

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I can't really do an analysis of you on the humiliation thing. If you say it isn't enforcing any negative traits within you, not driving you into reclusiveness or lowering your self-esteem then I have to believe you. Why do you think you get off on it?
I didn't ask you to analyze me on the humiliation thing. It's interesting to see one's imperfections, survive it, and be loved and cherished, regardless.
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