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invitation for public slicing, dicing, and other constructive skewering

JAMESBJOHNSON said:
Reproductive advantage is the name of the game. No other outcome matters.

Years ago I worked at a mental health center where all but me were childless. I had 4 children and now 10 grandchildren. The folks I worked with remain childless 25 years down the road. As I said back then, I AM THE FUTURE OF THE WORLD, YOURE DINOSAURS.
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Right about the reproductive success, James, but just because some dumb sociobiologist can make an argument that there's reproductive success in it doesn't make it genetic, or even real. Could just be his hallucination. And, by the way, the dinosaurs did pretty well, you know; it's just the unconsidered opinion of illiterates that they were unsuccessful. Cultures make up other realities for them, much like psychological projection. Oh, wait. That's Freudian. Mind stuff. You're a behaviorist. Go talk to some wolves.
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
Reproductive advantage is the name of the game. No other outcome matters.

Years ago I worked at a mental health center where all but me were childless. I had 4 children and now 10 grandchildren. The folks I worked with remain childless 25 years down the road. As I said back then, I AM THE FUTURE OF THE WORLD, YOURE DINOSAURS.
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Not every trait is selected directly. Many go along for the ride, because, for example, they are geographically close on the chromosome to something that is advantageous. And a lot of 'shit' happens if it has no strong disadvantage. You can see plenty of that just by looking around.
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
Naaah. Poems need points. What you advocate are invitations to hallucinate.
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A good hallucination is better that a dull point rammed home in explanatory prose. There again I was always fond of acid before my first couple of mental break downs lol.

We bring our own associative processes and opinions to each piece of writing we read poetry being a strange medium where personal perspectives shade context and add layers that may not be intended by the writer.

It is not prose in which you get explained everything like a child. Kinda like the way we are all trying to explain poetry to you....
 
todski28 said:
A good hallucination is better that a dull point rammed home in explanatory prose. There again I was always fond of acid before my first couple of mental break downs lol.

We bring our own associative processes and opinions to each piece of writing we read poetry being a strange medium where personal perspectives shade context and add layers that may not be intended by the writer.

It is not prose in which you get explained everything like a child. Kinda like the way we are all trying to explain poetry to you....
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You strive for complexity and confusion, and God does it easy. Schizophrenics blabber in Babelian gibberish no one follows. LIT poets do the same. Theyre simply making noise without intelligence.
 
At least you could do it as poetry. Here, I fixed it for you.

You strive for complexity
and confusion
and God does it easy.
Schizophrenics blabber in Babelian gibberish
no one follows.
LIT poets do the same.
They're simply making noise
without intelligence.
 
Nice work, Pilot! You've almost captured the pointlessness of Jimmy'z diatribes! Oh, wait. I forgot. You agreed with me: poems don't have to make points because a reader can always find a point somewhere in them. Even in a random assemblage of words. Easy. After all, people found points in the random apparent arrangement of stars and even came up with stories and poems to explain them. So, you've shown us that Jimmy was wrong in declaring leger's poems didn't make a point. So, why did you tell him you agreed with him? Keep that up, and I'm afraid Jim will think you're one of them schizophrenics he can't understand.

(Perhaps some exercises will help. Remember, Kegel : Hegel :: groin : brain. Get to it, Pilot!)

Now, though, I really must refrain from continuing this on leger's thread; she opened it for people to comment on her poetry, and here we are, hijacking it for our own little arguments. I think we should take this fight outside, don't you? Maybe I'll see you in the next forum down.
 
Tio_Narratore said:
Nice work, Pilot! You've almost captured the pointlessness of Jimmy'z diatribes! Oh, wait. I forgot. You agreed with me: poems don't have to make points because a reader can always find a point somewhere in them. Even in a random assemblage of words. Easy. After all, people found points in the random apparent arrangement of stars and even came up with stories and poems to explain them. So, you've shown us that Jimmy was wrong in declaring leger's poems didn't make a point. So, why did you tell him you agreed with him? Keep that up, and I'm afraid Jim will think you're one of them schizophrenics he can't understand.

(Perhaps some exercises will help. Remember, Kegel : Hegel :: groin : brain. Get to it, Pilot!)

Now, though, I really must refrain from continuing this on leger's thread; she opened it for people to comment on her poetry, and here we are, hijacking it for our own little arguments. I think we should take this fight outside, don't you? Maybe I'll see you in the next forum down.
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The word you want is lil quarrels. No one should ever want to understand a schizophrenic. Your duty is served when you recognize theyre nuts.
 
legerdemer said:
Thanks, greenmountaineer - as of last night, this is what it looks like...

I float above the Hanging Gardens,
suspended in Malaysian water,
the sun above, abyss beneath,
gorgonian ruff around volcanic reef.

Lace fronds sway gently.
I still my breath
and fish mistake me
for their own kin.

Colors vivid as azaleas in spring,
pinks, fuchsias, oranges, and purples.
Delicate tendrils reaching,
deceptively brittle.

I float above the Hanging Gardens,
imagine strolls down alleyways,
through gates and hedges, under arches,
where silence roams with me.

Clowns, triggers, angelfish, and sharks
ignore or consider me, curious.
The parrot fish attack the reef, the ticking
of their nips echoes throughout.

I float above the Hanging Gardens,
return to lose myself in dreams,
the warm touch of blue water
enfolds me with its silent solace.
Click to expand...

I like the changes, Mer. "and fish mistake me/for their own kin" works better than my earlier suggestion to consider eliminating the line.

"silent solace," although an improvement, feels redundant to me. I think solace more often than not is silent, and the added emphasis given by "enfolds" also suggests silence, at least to me. "enfolds me with its solace." I think works better.
 
greenmountaineer said:
I like the changes, Mer. "and fish mistake me/for their own kin" works better than my earlier suggestion to consider eliminating the line.

"silent solace," although an improvement, feels redundant to me. I think solace more often than not is silent, and the added emphasis given by "enfolds" also suggests silence, at least to me. "enfolds me with its solace." I think works better.
Click to expand...

Could be

Because i like the sibilance and alliteration

enfolds me in silent
solace

in slso emphasizes the fact that the N is floating.
 
legerdemer said:
Thanks, greenmountaineer - as of last night, this is what it looks like...

I float above the Hanging Gardens,
suspended in Malaysian water,
the sun above, abyss beneath,
gorgonian ruff around volcanic reef.

Lace fronds sway gently.
I still my breath
and fish mistake me
for their own kin.

Colors vivid as azaleas in spring,
pinks, fuchsias, oranges, and purples.
Delicate tendrils reaching,
deceptively brittle.

I float above the Hanging Gardens,
imagine strolls down alleyways,
through gates and hedges, under arches,
where silence roams with me.

Clowns, triggers, angelfish, and sharks
ignore or consider me, curious.
The parrot fish attack the reef, the ticking
of their nips echoes throughout.

I float above the Hanging Gardens,
return to lose myself in dreams,
the warm touch of blue water
enfolds me with its silent solace.
Click to expand...


I think some of your word choices could be a little darker to help validate the secondary theme of the potential loss of the reef. The ticking and abyss as well as the words "where silence roams with me" give little trigger clues but i think it still needs a bit more expansion.
 
greenmountaineer said:
I like the changes, Mer. "and fish mistake me/for their own kin" works better than my earlier suggestion to consider eliminating the line.

"silent solace," although an improvement, feels redundant to me. I think solace more often than not is silent, and the added emphasis given by "enfolds" also suggests silence, at least to me. "enfolds me with its solace." I think works better.
Click to expand...

todski28 said:
I think some of your word choices could be a little darker to help validate the secondary theme of the potential loss of the reef. The ticking and abyss as well as the words "where silence roams with me" give little trigger clues but i think it still needs a bit more expansion.
Click to expand...


Thank you both for your feedback. It does still feel unfinished, doesn't yet succeed going where I want to go. But your comments are helping me get there.
 
legerdemer said:
Thank you both for your feedback. It does still feel unfinished, doesn't yet succeed going where I want to go. But your comments are helping me get there.
Click to expand...

Hire a demolition crew and start over with a POINT.
 
Tio_Narratore said:
poems don't have to make points because a reader can always find a point somewhere in them.
Click to expand...

There's no guarantee of that, no. And at some point the reason to try to pull a point out of what just comes across like gibberish to the reader isn't worth the effort. (No, I never got that far into Ulysses, which I see as self-indulgent and arrogant. If James Joyce wanted to convey anything to me, he should have tried to meet me at least half way. I see quite a lot of poetry these days that leaves me just as cold.)
 
sr71plt said:
There's no guarantee of that, no. And at some point the reason to try to pull a point out of what just comes across like gibberish to the reader isn't worth the effort. (No, I never got that far into Ulysses, which I see as self-indulgent and arrogant. If James Joyce wanted to convey anything to me, he should have tried to meet me at least half way. I see quite a lot of poetry these days that leaves me just as cold.)
Click to expand...

Self-indulgent and arrogant? How about expecting James Joyce to have written something for you before you could even read? Now, that's self-indulgent and arrogant. I'm also sorry to hear that you're not among the hundreds of thousands who've had no trouble understanding Ulysses, and enjoying it. It os rather straight-forward and quite interesting, I find. Joyce did want to write beyond the ordinary, you know. He demonstrated his mastery of conventional prose in Dubliners; [/I]Ulysses[/I] took us well beyond that, and Finnegans Wake showed us how far we might go. (By the way, if you haven't guessed, e.e. cummings is among my favourite poets).

We don't you and JBJ go swap stories with some talking wolves, Pilot.
 
Tio_Narratore said:
Self-indulgent and arrogant? How about expecting James Joyce to have written something for you before you could even read? Now, that's self-indulgent and arrogant. I'm also sorry to hear that you're not among the hundreds of thousands who've had no trouble understanding Ulysses, and enjoying it. It os rather straight-forward and quite interesting, I find. Joyce did want to write beyond the ordinary, you know. He demonstrated his mastery of conventional prose in Dubliners; [/I]Ulysses[/I] took us well beyond that, and Finnegans Wake showed us how far we might go. (By the way, if you haven't guessed, e.e. cummings is among my favourite poets).

We don't you and JBJ go swap stories with some talking wolves, Pilot.
Click to expand...

Joyce has been on life support since he wrote FINNEGANS WAKE. Its like the bilge these 'poets' fling against their monitors.
 
Tio_Narratore said:
I'm also sorry to hear that you're not among the hundreds of thousands who've had no trouble understanding Ulysses, and enjoying it.
Click to expand...

Name them. I'm willing to bet that 99 percent of them only said they read it to pretend to be superior to the rest of us. :D

Let's count noses on the Lit. on how many here (honestly--including you) made it through that book.
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
Hire a demolition crew and start over with a POINT.
Click to expand...

What confuses me is that there are 2 points in this piece running in contrast, it just needs to have a little more alignment to polish it. Im surprised that you can't see it :D
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
Joyce has been on life support since he wrote FINNEGANS WAKE. Its like the bilge these 'poets' fling against their monitors.
Click to expand...

sr71plt said:
Name them. I'm willing to bet that 99 percent of them only said they read it to pretend to be superior to the rest of us. :D

Let's count noses on the Lit. on how many here (honestly--including you) made it through that book.
Click to expand...

Oh, yes, thank you. Ulysses was an easy and fun read. Finnegans Wake is more challenging. It's one of the few I re-read, and I find more in it each time I go through. And I've discussed both with numerous colleagues. Only those who haven't the imagination to see language and thought played with presume that others really haven't read Joyce.

And, no, I don't pretend to be superior to you and yours; you seem to feel inferior about not understanding, and in desperate need of some form of psychological projection to ease your sense of worthlessness.

todski28 said:
What confuses me is that there are 2 points in this piece running in contrast, it just needs to have a little more alignment to polish it. Im surprised that you can't see it :D
Click to expand...

Yes, the nascent poem does have points, but James and Pilot have trouble even with Ibsen's Wild Duck.
 
todski28 said:
What confuses me is that there are 2 points in this piece running in contrast, it just needs to have a little more alignment to polish it. Im surprised that you can't see it :D
Click to expand...

Poems aren't Easter egg hunts.

One night I sat in my office with a schizophrenic girl who blabbered for 30 minutes about anything and everything (like the poets here), and I stopped her, saying WHAT IN HELL IS YOUR POINT? And she replied, I'M REALLY PISSED.

Leggoman needs to do the same and stop hiding eggs for readers to find.
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
Poems aren't Easter egg hunts.

One night I sat in my office with a schizophrenic girl who blabbered for 30 minutes about anything and everything (like the poets here), and I stopped her, saying WHAT IN HELL IS YOUR POINT? And she replied, I'M REALLY PISSED.

Leggoman needs to do the same and stop hiding eggs for readers to find.
Click to expand...

Ok since youre seriously struggling let me lay it out for you, dont want you to blow a blood vessel.

This poem is about your favourite whipping boy/girl
Bruce Jenner.

See the turmoil below the surface facade of beauty. The loss of the reef is symbolic to the loss of his masculinity and he is scared that he is floating in the wrong choices hahaha

Thanks for the session doc I can now refrain from running naked down the street covered in my own excrement :D
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
Youll wait forever cuz I never lie.
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LOL, yup, that's truthful alright, just admitted you had no point.

From all of the comments you've posted here on the pobos, my takeaway is that you are a reformed carnivore who's stumbled into a BBQ. While you're free to hang around and sniff the wares, you're wasting what breath you have left telling the grill masters how terrible it all smells.

What's MY point? Don't have one, just amused at the irony of your pointless efforts to at pointing out the pointlessness of poems that only you see no point in.
 
Trixareforkids said:
LOL, yup, that's truthful alright, just admitted you had no point.

From all of the comments you've posted here on the pobos, my takeaway is that you are a reformed carnivore who's stumbled into a BBQ. While you're free to hang around and sniff the wares, you're wasting what breath you have left telling the grill masters how terrible it all smells.

What's MY point? Don't have one, just amused at the irony of your pointless efforts to at pointing out the pointlessness of poems that only you see no point in.
Click to expand...

I made the role famous.
 
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