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I had a story rejected after four months

HandsInTheDark said:
I'm guessing the male character is 15 years old. (I hope he's not a lot older or this is edging towards pedo space, let alone a Lit rules issue). At 15 no guy cares about a girl's embarrassment - girls are things to look at and ideally touch. Assuming the male was about 15, the original paragraph got exactly the right flavor of what guys are like at that age, though not generally towards sisters. The girl was pissed at the unwanted attention, so I think he got that right, too.

It also makes total sense that it doesn't belong on Lit.

The revised paragraph lacks the punchy honesty of the original but still retains a little of the creepy "this doesn't belong here" feel. But Laurel accepted it, so move on.

If I were writing this, which I wouldn't, the paragraph would be gone, and if references were needed to these events I'd weave them into current day dialog.
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Woohoo! I win the creepiest writer award!

HandsInTheDark said:
"Don't give me that! You've been checking me out since I was 13, you stupid perv!"

It pretty much says everything that has to be said, and since the goal is (presumably) to make the male character unlikable, I don't think you need more.
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Your suggestion doesn't work in that scene. It would destroy it. I thought about giving a longer excerpt and explaining what's going on, but it would be best if you read the story up to the paragraph, which is on page 2. The story is My Sister Set Me Up on a Blind Date. I didn't link to it in my initial post because I have been accused of pimping my stories in my OP's.
 
plesmore said:
He'd reach under her top and play with her pert breasts before pulling off her panties...

How is that different from When Ashlynne had been thirteen, she realized one night that I was checking out her then-small titties. because he wrote 13?
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One is describing a man sexually assaulting an underage girl. The other is describing an everyday occurrence. If they seem the same to you, I'm very sorry for you.

You may not be aware of this, but most 15-year-old boys are very interested in the girls around them. They are in my experience constantly assessing the attractiveness of those girls and a part of that assessment is checking out their tits. I know, incredible. Now, openly checking out a girl's tits is very rude and shouldn't be done. Ashlynne was well within her rights to be angry when she caught her brother doing that. But to equate checking out a girl's tits with sexual assault is so over the top that it makes it hard for me to take you seriously.
 
Haulover said:
Don't make invalid assumptions.

It is NOT a non-consensual abuse story, and I never even hinted that it was.

It's a story about grown forty-something women (twin sisters). There's a description of one sister discovering, with shock, while she was 18, that the other sister (also 18) had had sex with her dad ... at age 18. She then figures out that it had in fact started at a younger age (and that's all it says - half a sentence, no more) ... and the story continues with their present-age activities, exploring the psychological impact of those activities on the sisters' current-day lives.



Thanks for those details from Laurel. Based on that, I'm well within the guidelines. My story does not glorify, or even describe, the under-age activities.

However, I might contact her before the submission anyway.
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I'm about to post a story in which an 18-year-old sees her twin with her father, and then realizes that "the abuse" (as I call it) had been going on since the sister was 12. That's all it says ... I hope it doesn't get rejected for that!

What assumption? Now you say the girls are 40 and the one sister has been in an incestuous relationship with her father since 18...... Before you had the girl at 12 years old, which is a non-consensual abuse story - glad to see you changed it.
 
8letters said:
One is describing a man sexually assaulting an underage girl. The other is describing an everyday occurrence. If they seem the same to you, I'm very sorry for you.

You may not be aware of this, but most 15-year-old boys are very interested in the girls around them. They are in my experience constantly assessing the attractiveness of those girls and a part of that assessment is checking out their tits. I know, incredible. Now, openly checking out a girl's tits is very rude and shouldn't be done. Ashlynne was well within her rights to be angry when she caught her brother doing that. But to equate checking out a girl's tits with sexual assault is so over the top that it makes it hard for me to take you seriously.
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The point is the girl is 13 years old. The boy's age is not indicated - only that he was obsessed with her breasts. And obviously your 15 year old had a control problem in that he had to stay in his room so she could venture out into the house. Abuse does not only include physical assault. The girl has to live in an environment constantly afraid of your 15 year olds attention. I am sorry that you do not see the difference.
 
plesmore said:
The point is the girl is 13 years old. The boy's age is not indicated
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That's because you've only read one paragraph out of a seven page story.

plesmore said:
only that he was obsessed with her breasts.
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He's not obsessed with her breasts. One time, he checked them out while she was wearing a nightshirt.

plesmore said:
And obviously your 15 year old had a control problem in that he had to stay in his room so she could venture out into the house.
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There's nothing in the story to indicate that he had a control problem.

plesmore said:
Abuse does not only include physical assault.
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The brother and sister fought constantly growing up. Is that abuse?

plesmore said:
The girl has to live in an environment constantly afraid of your 15 year olds attention. I am sorry that you do not see the difference.
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Again, there's nothing in the story indicate that the girl was ever afraid of her brother.

You're making a lot of sweeping conclusions based upon one paragraph on page two of a seven-page story.
 
plesmore said:
The point is the girl is 13 years old. The boy's age is not indicated - only that he was obsessed with her breasts. And obviously your 15 year old had a control problem in that he had to stay in his room so she could venture out into the house. Abuse does not only include physical assault. The girl has to live in an environment constantly afraid of your 15 year olds attention. I am sorry that you do not see the difference.
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Um... ok. Let me start with the standard disclaimer - I don't like incest stories. At all. To avoid bias, I'm going to pretend the two characters in question are not related. It means I can dispense with "she's your sister and that's creepy" and focus on the more general question of a 15 year old checking out a 13 year old.

Males below the age of about 20 don't have anything fully developed except a sex drive. They are not mature, they are not socially adept, their brains are not fully formed, and they are stuck with working out how to be a Guy without being controlled by the underlying urges males feel. Those underlying urges are those of a straight-up sexual predator, because deep down, evolution wants every capable guys to fuck nubile women and get them pregnant, and evolution doesn't have a single manual on ethics in the library. Part of growing up, for guys, is learning that the voices in your head that see cute girls and scream "fuckable play toy!" need a gag order.

I doubt any fifteen year old boy has that down yet. I didn't at that age and I was something of a boy scout compared to my friends. Control problem? Heck yes kids that age have control problems, and this is why there are laws regulating sexual activity. In the US we set it at 18 in the hopes people will be more responsible by then. In other places the age is 16 because they've given up trying to legislate hormones, and they hope that if birth control is very available, nothing too bad will happen. I don't know which system is better, but they both represent an approach to the fact - not the problem, but the fact - that boys wanna grope and fuck girls long before they understand when that's a good idea.

plesmore, I don't know you but your comments have the feel of someone who hasn't raised a boy that age. Yes, they gawk at 13 year old girls. They gawk at 16 year old girls too, but that game is out of reach so they tend to focus on what they might be able to get their hands on. It's worrisome but normal. Since you can't be one, I'd recommend you withhold comment until you've at least raised one. There's a reason parents get grey hair, but it generally turns out ok for most.

Does that make for a happy world for the thirteen year old girls - no. I'm told by friends who have been there that it's not a fun age. But in your ranting you're near to criminalizing being male. Being gawked at by a young adolescent male isn't abuse. If it is we have to put every boy from 11 to 17 in jail. No hand-wringing about it is going to change anything. Learning that males like to look and touch, and learning to dissuade that kind of attention, is something girls suffer through learning as part of maturing. (You either learn to own your own space or you'll find other learn to own it for you, and that can go very, very poorly.)

If I ran the zoo, women would spend a compulsory year in the body of a 16 year old male. (And to all you who are thinking men should spend nine months pregnant, yeah, I hear you.) We'd get a lot less crap talked about sex if we had the insight of the other's experiences, I'm thinking.

Disclaimer: I skimmed part of 8letters story, up until the girl incomprehensibly turned incestuous and starting kissing her brother. It was decently written but the subject matter doesn't work for me. I'm defending a position, not a story.
 
HandsInTheDark said:
Um... ok. Let me start with the standard disclaimer - I don't like incest stories. At all. To avoid bias, I'm going to pretend the two characters in question are not related. It means I can dispense with "she's your sister and that's creepy" and focus on the more general question of a 15 year old checking out a 13 year old.

Males below the age of about 20 don't have anything fully developed except a sex drive. They are not mature, they are not socially adept, their brains are not fully formed, and they are stuck with working out how to be a Guy without being controlled by the underlying urges males feel. Those underlying urges are those of a straight-up sexual predator, because deep down, evolution wants every capable guys to fuck nubile women and get them pregnant, and evolution doesn't have a single manual on ethics in the library. Part of growing up, for guys, is learning that the voices in your head that see cute girls and scream "fuckable play toy!" need a gag order.

I doubt any fifteen year old boy has that down yet. I didn't at that age and I was something of a boy scout compared to my friends. Control problem? Heck yes kids that age have control problems, and this is why there are laws regulating sexual activity. In the US we set it at 18 in the hopes people will be more responsible by then. In other places the age is 16 because they've given up trying to legislate hormones, and they hope that if birth control is very available, nothing too bad will happen. I don't know which system is better, but they both represent an approach to the fact - not the problem, but the fact - that boys wanna grope and fuck girls long before they understand when that's a good idea.

plesmore, I don't know you but your comments have the feel of someone who hasn't raised a boy that age. Yes, they gawk at 13 year old girls. They gawk at 16 year old girls too, but that game is out of reach so they tend to focus on what they might be able to get their hands on. It's worrisome but normal. Since you can't be one, I'd recommend you withhold comment until you've at least raised one. There's a reason parents get grey hair, but it generally turns out ok for most.

Does that make for a happy world for the thirteen year old girls - no. I'm told by friends who have been there that it's not a fun age. But in your ranting you're near to criminalizing being male. Being gawked at by a young adolescent male isn't abuse. If it is we have to put every boy from 11 to 17 in jail. No hand-wringing about it is going to change anything. Learning that males like to look and touch, and learning to dissuade that kind of attention, is something girls suffer through learning as part of maturing. (You either learn to own your own space or you'll find other learn to own it for you, and that can go very, very poorly.)

If I ran the zoo, women would spend a compulsory year in the body of a 16 year old male. (And to all you who are thinking men should spend nine months pregnant, yeah, I hear you.) We'd get a lot less crap talked about sex if we had the insight of the other's experiences, I'm thinking.

Disclaimer: I skimmed part of 8letters story, up until the girl incomprehensibly turned incestuous and starting kissing her brother. It was decently written but the subject matter doesn't work for me. I'm defending a position, not a story.
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I'm going to defend plesmore here. If what she thought had happened had happened; if the older brother had been obsessed with his sister's tits, had been constantly checking her out and had made her constantly feel uncomfortable in her own home, then that would have been an abusive situation. The parents should have intervened, possibly kicking the brother out of the house. I can see how plesmore could read that situation had happened from that one paragraph.

But we are talking about one paragraph from page two of a seven-page story. Before the reader gets to that paragraph, it's been established that sister doesn't fear the brother. Before this scene, she wears a bikini when she has breakfast with him and it's no big deal. It's been established that they fought constantly when they were younger and would do anything to piss the other one off. It's been established that her parents favored her over her brother. Given that context, I think it's clear that the sister did what she did in the paragraph not because she feared her brother but to piss him off.
 
uksnowy said:
My rejections were the use of under age characters. The stories were submitted a long time back and I have since returned to writing and have edited the rejected works altering the ages to 18. The edited versions are either marked "Not Submitted" or don't appear.
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If it's marked "Not Submitted," you didn't click on the final submission button. It's in limbo, not apparent to the editor.
 
I do click on preview which is the only button available. That must be the final submission button then
 
uksnowy said:
I do click on preview which is the only button available. That must be the final submission button then
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After the preview comes up there's a new Submit button you have to hit to activate the submission.
 
8letters said:
I'm going to defend plesmore here. If what she thought had happened had happened; if the older brother had been obsessed with his sister's tits, had been constantly checking her out and had made her constantly feel uncomfortable in her own home, then that would have been an abusive situation. The parents should have intervened, possibly kicking the brother out of the house. I can see how plesmore could read that situation had happened from that one paragraph.

But we are talking about one paragraph from page two of a seven-page story. Before the reader gets to that paragraph, it's been established that sister doesn't fear the brother. Before this scene, she wears a bikini when she has breakfast with him and it's no big deal. It's been established that they fought constantly when they were younger and would do anything to piss the other one off. It's been established that her parents favored her over her brother. Given that context, I think it's clear that the sister did what she did in the paragraph not because she feared her brother but to piss him off.
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Yes - it's hard to bring a balance to the characters with one paragraph of a 7 page story and yes, perhaps I am overly critical in dealing with 13 year old girls - ok, very overly critical. My intentions were not to criminalize the boy but rather let him be as much a sex addict as needed without giving the impression of a predictor.
As surmised, I have not raised anything except a cat and the out come is still in the air.
The main thing that bothered me was his restricted movement by the parents. Not knowing the full story I do not know how crucial this part is to your story but felt that it could have been conveyed in a less threating way - at least the way I took it.
Let me know if it passes and I will read the whole thing before praising or ranting..
 
sr71PLT thanks, I have never noticed that, maybe the answer to my problems.
 
plesmore said:
That is one of the reasons one should pass on a non-consensual abuse with underage stories. Nothing wrong with a incest story about a 18 yo twin deciding she likes daddy, but not the history on sexual encounters.
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It's so easy for men to sexualize us... They don't even see that they are doing it or that there is anything wrong with it.

But because this is an erotica site, I suppose I will be seen as a prude... Because men think "erotica" equals- woman have tits.

And by extension it seems that "tits" is the main point of our existance... A walking pair of tits. And you ( OP) can say that you don't feel that way, but your writing says otherwise.
 
"At 15 no guy cares about a girl's embarrassment - girls are things to look at and ideally touch."

Let me know when you outgrow that disgusting line of thinking. Oh wait...
 
sweetnpetite said:
It's so easy for men to sexualize us... They don't even see that they are doing it or that there is anything wrong with it.

But because this is an erotica site, I suppose I will be seen as a prude... Because men think "erotica" equals- woman have tits.

And by extension it seems that "tits" is the main point of our existance... A walking pair of tits. And you ( OP) can say that you don't feel that way, but your writing says otherwise.
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You're absolutely right. T&A quite probably is the main reason for our existence. I see so many of these 'men sexualize women' (shame on you) posts and it never fails to make me scratch my head.

If men see women as sexual creatures, it is because we are sexual creatures. And, thankfully for me, so are men. You can place blame on men all you want to, but no one is more guilty of 'sexualizing women' than who? WOMEN!

We dye our hair, paint our nails, and our faces, spray on perfumes, put on clothes that reveal our lovely tits and asses for what purpose? To have men desire us. They don't make butt floss bikinis for comfort. Or, under-wire push-up bras, or corsets, or high heels...(I could go on and on but it is redundant.)

Women dream of becoming models, actresses, rockstars, etc. for the attention. The same way we try to lure men to us with all the window dressings we use. This isn't anything new. (Ten thousand years or more ago, women in Egypt were doing the same thing.) Fashion is fashion for the sake of vanity and vanity is based on the want or need to be desired.

The human body is intended to be used for sex. Otherwise we would all be asexual and simply segment like worms.
 
Well, that certainly puts a crimp in playing the victim card. :D
 
holliday1960 said:
If men see women as sexual creatures, it is because we are sexual creatures. And, thankfully for me, so are men. You can place blame on men all you want to, but no one is more guilty of 'sexualizing women' than who? WOMEN!
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I'm glad you responded to this. I tried, then abandoned my reply.

I think maybe "sexualize" was an unfortunate choice of words because it has several similar, but not identical definitions. "Sexualization" is normal development for adolescents of both genders and of course, adults of both genders are sexualized.

I think sweetnpetite probably meant "sexualize" in the sense of men assigning sexual motivations and characteristics to women at inappropriate times and places. I also thought that she may have meant "objectify" buy couldn't quite make that fit her statement.
 
Oh, really? I saw it as a "having your cake and eating it too" line of assertion that's typical of a certain segment of the feminist movement. And I thought Holliday1960 was spot on in calling it out.
 
sweetnpetite said:
It's so easy for men to sexualize us... They don't even see that they are doing it or that there is anything wrong with it.
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Is there anything wrong with it though? What do you find that is so wrong with it? Do you mean being seen as an item and not a person? There's a difference.

I mean, there's always a time and place and all that, but if I do up my appearance to feel pretty or sexy, then should it surprise me if others also find me pretty or sexy? If it makes me feel good to be seen as sexy, is that a bad thing? Or is it just the fact that someone dares to have an opinion about my appearance?

This does seem like a you issue to me. Just because you don't like being sexualized doesn't mean it's a problem, just that it's a problem for you. If you do mean being seen as an items instead of a person, then yes, I do think there can be issues there.
 
sr71plt said:
Oh, really? I saw it as a "having your cake and eating it too" line of assertion that's typical of a certain segment of the feminist movement. And I thought Holliday1960 was spot on in calling it out.
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(Holliday takes her first bow on the AH) :D Thank you, Sir Pilot. I usually don't respond to these kinds of posts because I feel it is pointless. Every once in a while I get to to point where I just can't help myself though. ;)
 
NotWise said:
I'm glad you responded to this. I tried, then abandoned my reply.

I think maybe "sexualize" was an unfortunate choice of words because it has several similar, but not identical definitions. "Sexualization" is normal development for adolescents of both genders and of course, adults of both genders are sexualized.

I think sweetnpetite probably meant "sexualize" in the sense of men assigning sexual motivations and characteristics to women at inappropriate times and places. I also thought that she may have meant "objectify" buy couldn't quite make that fit her statement.
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I see your point, Notwise, and certainly there is a time and a place when cat-calls and such becomes harassment. Then crosses the line. (For instance, if a man stands up in the middle of a restaurant and whistles at a female, that is uncalled for, but it shows more of a lack of manners than anything to me.)

However, if a man quietly approaches me when I'm sitting alone at a table and says, "I think you are a beautiful, sexy woman," I would take that as a compliment.

Regardless of what it's called, I like it when men notice me. So, to all you gentlemen out there, please feel free to admire the goods all you like. You'll never hear me complain. Especially if I am allowed to repay the compliment. ;)
 
holliday1960 said:
Regardless of what it's called, I like it when men notice me. So, to all you gentlemen out there, please feel free to admire the goods all you like. You'll never hear me complain. Especially if I am allowed to repay the compliment. ;)
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We raised three daughters and between them and their friends and the organizations they were active in I ended up spending a lot of time around adolescent girls. I eventually learned that post-pubescent girls watch how the men/boys around them respond, then they adjust their "look" and their manner to increase or decrease the reaction they get and to adjust who is paying attention.

Once I actually had that idea formulated I confronted my youngest daughter with it and she said it was totally true.

The first time that got hammered home I was sitting in the lobby of a ballet studio and waiting for my daughter to change. A 16 year-old dancer walked by me wearing jeans over a leotard and tights. She stepped just inside the door of the studio and bent down with her back to me to pull her jeans down. My eyes followed her, but I was thinking about nothing in particular. She looked back at me with her jeans around her knees and gave me a great big smile when she found me looking at her butt.

This wasn't the reaction of some loose little chick. She was the featured dancer at the studio. She graduated from high school with a scholarship that gave her a full ride at any college of her choosing, plus a laptop and money for books and fees. She could have gone anywhere and done anything, but she chose to stay at the local U because her mother was diagnosed with MS and needed help with her two younger brothers, who were both very athletic geniuses. She's an architect now.

That behavior doesn't stop as people get older. I think most (not all) women seek that kind of knee-jerk, almost unconscious feedback from men. That's totally not the same thing as being groped or accosted on the street.
 
NotWise said:
That behavior doesn't stop as people get older. I think most (not all) women seek that kind of knee-jerk, almost unconscious feedback from men. That's totally not the same thing as being groped or accosted on the street.
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There's a big difference between objectification and appreciation.

And it works both ways. There comes a certain age when men become invisible to younger women for a decade or so (probably when they are less desirable as a mate because they are a young father, father of teens blah blah blah, already taken in other words); and then they go past that and become noticed again.

The smile you get from an older woman, before she realises she's given it (that upwards look and glance), is a reminder of everything that ever was; and whenever you get a smile from a younger woman (and they know they're smiling, it's in their eyes), well, there's no better thing.

Perhaps older men still know how to charm. Perhaps it's my blue eyes, who knows.
 
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