A bit of BDSM philosophy

kinkkey

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So I was thinking the other day and found it particularly interesting how some actions can very easily be made into either a dominant act or a submissive act, simply depending on the mindset and attitude you approach it from.

For example, if a dom bathes his sub, he is doing it as an act of control, taking away her power to do it herself and she is submitting by letting him wash her. If a dom orders his sub to bathe him, he is still in control, she is serving him by doing this task for him and so she is still submitting by washing him. When he does it to her, he is stripping her of the freedom to do it herself, and when she does it to him, she is shouldering the burden of this chore in order to please him. The exact same action can hold these opposite aspects simply by changing the way you look at it.

It got me wondering, does everything work this way? Can any action become either dominant or submissive, depending entirely on the psychological approach to the action, or are there some things which are irrevocably one or the other?

For example, how would a sub need to think about it in order to make the seemingly inherently dominant act of facesitting into an act of submission? Would the mere fact that she was ordered to do it by her dom be enough to strip her of the sense of power and control that this action usually grants and instead replace it with a feeling of surrender?

What do you think?
 
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It got me wondering, does everything work this way? Can any action become either dominant or submissive, depending entirely on the psychological approach to the action, or are there some things which are irrevocably one or the other?

Well, if a guy would approach me and tell me he is a dominant, he makes her pee on him, then I'm saying "Ooookay" in the same tone I use when some guy approaches me and tells me that he is not gay, he just likes to suck cock.


But yes, it's all in the mind in the end, not just dominance and submission. The difference between sexual harrassment and a welcome flirt is rarely determined by the action itself.
 
The idea is that there are no dominant or submissive acts. If someone is in the driver seat, who is in charge? Well if you're a chauffeur, your passenger is in charge.
 
The idea is that there are no dominant or submissive acts. If someone is in the driver seat, who is in charge? Well if you're a chauffeur, your passenger is in charge.

Unless he is speeding up and trying to kill both of you in a car accident.
 
Unless he is speeding up and trying to kill both of you in a car accident.

You're assuming the passenger didn't order the driver to do that. Sure, as soon as the person doing the obeying stops obeying, the authority is gone. All authority based relationships are social constructs. There's no maguc essence that makes people obey.
 
Sure, as soon as the person doing the obeying stops obeying, the authority is gone. All authority based relationships are social constructs.

:rolleyes:

Yes. The question was whether this isn't an act of dominance, as the previous statement was there are no acts of dominance/submission.
 
You're assuming the passenger didn't order the driver to do that. Sure, as soon as the person doing the obeying stops obeying, the authority is gone. All authority based relationships are social constructs. There's no maguc essence that makes people obey.

This is probably going off-topic, but I find this topic interesting... Just... what exactly is authority or power, which I'd assume is the most basic essence of BDSM? Is it about beating somebody in the head with the club to get them to do something? Is it about consenting to obey? Is it an agreement that is supposedly beneficial to both?

Oh! Power only exists when somebody adheres to whomever is wielding the power. If there's nobody obeying or following, then there would not be any power or authority.

Conclusion: I think that a "dominant" act is, when somebody can't help but follow that order through either force or influence. So for "facesitting" (which is usually considered to be "dominating") to be considered more and more of a submissive act, then there has to be extreme pressure or force or influence on the sub to perform that act. To use a crude example... perhaps somebody could be pointing a gun at her to perform the act, which could be potentially erotic if the sub is extremely masochistic.
 
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This is an interesting question. My partner (Kissa) loves being tied down, rendered immobile, blindfolded, and made to come as many times as she's capable of. She wants me to do whatever I want to her (we are pretty mainstream, and not into anal or pain), wanting the element of surprise and lack of control, as it heightens her arousal. I (Karhu) provide her with all that. Who is dominant, and who is submissive? On the surface, she might look like she's just an object, as it would be if she was in a series of photos, but in fact, her pleasure is the focal point of the whole exercise. She doesn't feel submissive, and I don't feel like I'm doing something I rather wouldn't. Earlier this week, I told her to put a pair of kegel balls in her pussy, which kept her horny for the better part of the day. As ours is still a long distance relationship, she could have fudged it, but we both knew it would be fun. I guess that by the end of the day, it's a win-win for both of us.
 
This is an interesting question. My partner (Kissa) loves being tied down, rendered immobile, blindfolded, and made to come as many times as she's capable of. She wants me to do whatever I want to her (we are pretty mainstream, and not into anal or pain), wanting the element of surprise and lack of control, as it heightens her arousal. I (Karhu) provide her with all that. Who is dominant, and who is submissive? On the surface, she might look like she's just an object, as it would be if she was in a series of photos, but in fact, her pleasure is the focal point of the whole exercise. She doesn't feel submissive, and I don't feel like I'm doing something I rather wouldn't. Earlier this week, I told her to put a pair of kegel balls in her pussy, which kept her horny for the better part of the day. As ours is still a long distance relationship, she could have fudged it, but we both knew it would be fun. I guess that by the end of the day, it's a win-win for both of us.

It is not about who is experiencing the pleasure. If my husband tells me to give him a blow job, I do it. I choose to be in a relationship where he gets to tell me those things. He's still in charge when I do as he says, even if it's me pleasuring him.

It may be you don't include authority exchange, which would mean neither person is dominant or submissive. In theory someone could be tied up, but still in charge because their partner still agrees to do whatever act the tied up person says.

With your last example it sounds like You made a suggestion, and she wanted to do it. Or maybe you do play with authority exchange, but not on an ongoing basis and for limited periods. I don't know. The point is not everything has to have power play present.
 
It is not about who is experiencing the pleasure. If my husband tells me to give him a blow job, I do it. I choose to be in a relationship where he gets to tell me those things. He's still in charge when I do as he says, even if it's me pleasuring him.

It may be you don't include authority exchange, which would mean neither person is dominant or submissive. In theory someone could be tied up, but still in charge because their partner still agrees to do whatever act the tied up person says.

With your last example it sounds like You made a suggestion, and she wanted to do it. Or maybe you do play with authority exchange, but not on an ongoing basis and for limited periods. I don't know. The point is not everything has to have power play present.
Due to the nature of our relationship (long distance), we haven't been able to try out all aspects yet. Fun stuff like going shopping with a vibrator + remote is on the list, though. Perhaps we are too egalitarian, perhaps our play shifts subtly between dom/sub. Even if she's the one who receives the most attention in our play, I hold the initiative, like when to use ice cubes, slapping her clit, applying nipple clamps, making her suck me, keeping her on the edge...

Personally, I don't derive pleasure from being dominant, but from making her come. Is that an act of submission? On the other hand, she's in my control, submitted to my whims. We are new to this (I'm the first she has let do this to her), and learning ways to make both enjoy making love more.

As for the example in the OP, a sub ordered to sit on her dom's face might not feel the act itself a loss of power and control merely by being ordered to do it - it depends on what happens next. The dom might deny her orgasm, or require her to come in order to move on to next step, which could be the loss of control (again).
 
Due to the nature of our relationship (long distance), we haven't been able to try out all aspects yet. Fun stuff like going shopping with a vibrator + remote is on the list, though. Perhaps we are too egalitarian, perhaps our play shifts subtly between dom/sub. Even if she's the one who receives the most attention in our play, I hold the initiative, like when to use ice cubes, slapping her clit, applying nipple clamps, making her suck me, keeping her on the edge...

Personally, I don't derive pleasure from being dominant, but from making her come. Is that an act of submission? On the other hand, she's in my control, submitted to my whims. We are new to this (I'm the first she has let do this to her), and learning ways to make both enjoy making love more.

As for the example in the OP, a sub ordered to sit on her dom's face might not feel the act itself a loss of power and control merely by being ordered to do it - it depends on what happens next. The dom might deny her orgasm, or require her to come in order to move on to next step, which could be the loss of control (again).

You're not too egalitarian if it works for you. Not everything in BDSM involves dominance and submission. Some people are just kinky and having fun. It's also not black and white. There may be elements of dominance and submission for the two of you.

There are three things being talked about in this thread. Power, control, and authority. Often those can be used interchangeably, but I think in this discussion we are specifically talking about authority. In the driving example, the chauffeur has control. The passenger has authority because they've agreed to pay the chauffeur for driving them wherever they say. They both have power over themselves, and whether or not one has power over the other depends on their relationship and personalities.

It doesn't matter what comes next. That's the whole point. If the dom and sub know she's sitting on his face because he says so, he's still in charge even if the encounter ends in her orgasm. My husband tells me to get on top during sex. I then have control physically of the tempo of things, but because I've agreed he's in charge I do it how he says. Even if he left me to do it my own way, he's still in charge. That's what dominance and submission is. One person agrees to be in charge, and the other agrees to obey within the agreed upon parameters. It's much like a boss/employee relationship. Even if the employee knows how to do the job better than the boss, and does most of the running of things, the boss is still the authority.
 
As Spun Things says, there are a lot of concepts that intersect when we talk about dominance and submission.

Power, control, agency, authority...

People have a tendency to make a mishmash of them or at least not be clear (even with themselves) about what they mean, when they use the word dominance.
Not a very effective word, really unless you stick to using it to just mean gaining upper hand, without making it be about the reason for the one up situation.

As for the chauffeur and the passenger, I've been in a taxi at night when the driver decided to turn right into a rather deserted and seedy industrial area instead of turning left into the residential area I'd told him to go to.

Authority gone and yes, it definitely felt like an act of dominance from him, with him controling my destination.
I thought about who would have the power when we got to his intended destination and used my agency (and perhaps power?) to get out of the car when he stopped at a red light.
Yes, I know he could just have been taking a wrong turn but my gut feeling said that any discussion about chice of route might put me in a worse situation with less agency.

To answer the OP, people are mostly very able to twist their own perception of control in the most astonishing ways. What it may look like from the outside is often a different matter.
The example you chose seems fairly simple to me. "I did it because he/she said so. Therefore, I submitted."
 
Well, perhaps the point of this whole thing is the pretense and the subjectivity of domination and submission. What really matters is how one personally feels dominant or submissive, whether there is actually anything on the outside causing one to be dominant or submissive, or not. For example, one can masturbate alone and still feel submissive, even though it was self-induced and she wasn't submitting to anybody but herself.

As for the chauffeur example, again, it all depends on the feeling of being in control or out of control. If the chauffeur is out of control and disobeying your orders, you may feel helpless and out of control. Or, you may refuse to be out of control, shout, yell or kick at the chauffeur to obey your orders, or you can even jump out of the car in order to feel that you're in control.

As for power & submitting to authority, is again, a completely subjective thing. You will likely submit to authority because you feel that they are more powerful than you, and therefore it is wise to simply submit to them. However if the tables have turned somehow, then you will likely rebel or disobey authority.
 
Yes, it's all about the subjective feeling of power and control or helplessness and surrender. With the bathing example, it's easy to explain and rationalize in both directions. I'm not allowing her to wash herself, and I'm handling her roughly as I do it, or I'm making her do the work for me while I relax and she tends to my needs gently.

The real issue is how to create the mental construct of submission despite the sub being in a position normally associated with power. In the chauffeur example, if he doesn't obey the passenger, he doesn't get paid, and if he really pisses them off, they could even get him fired, so even though he is in the driver seat, he has that mental baggage hanging over his head, creating the feeling of being under the passenger's control.

I suppose that is a good enough model, assigning direct and explicitly outlined rules, incentives, and consequences to the particular action in question to create that extra sense of urgency to their obedience in addition to the overarching power exchange. Even if it is harder to directly rationalize how the act itself is actually an act of submission, if there is enough of a rigid structure of control in place, I suppose it works just as well.
 
Anything can be submissive if asked or told. Face sitting? If a Dom says, " come here, sit on my face" because he/she enjoys doing it? The Dom is still in control.
 
The idea is that there are no dominant or submissive acts. If someone is in the driver seat, who is in charge? Well if you're a chauffeur, your passenger is in charge.

That would be the equivalent of service topping, which is often (and this is a broad-brush statement) the realm for pro dom(me)s.

Over all, I think that the OP has it pretty spot on. Just about any act can be dominant, and it can be submissive. It all depends on context and how you structure your interactions with others. Sometimes a seemingly submissive might be about letting go of a bit of the control for a dominant, perhaps as a way of releasing pressure or stress, or other times it might be about obtaining more. There are infinite ways to structure (or not structure) your relationship with dominance and submission.
 
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