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Old 12-15-2016, 11:01 AM   #1
CalypsoInPhilly
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Question Need advice on story category

I posted this story in BDSM: https://www.literotica.com/s/her-office

But I received a comment saying it sounds like rape or at least non-consent (despite the ending).
I would never intentionally describe actual rape in my writings; it is NOT a turn-on for me or my partner, so I'd like feedback on whether I should edit the story to make it clear that this is true bondage/domination only...or if I should leave the story as it is, but change the category to non-consent/reluctance.

I appreciate any comments, as I'm new to posting stories here (although I've been a devoted reader for quite a while).
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Old 12-15-2016, 03:27 PM   #2
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Some individuals in 'the scene' can be very anal about these things. It's understandable, to an extent, because they don't want their lifestyle/hobby to be confused with exploitation, abuse and rape. To them it's all about trust and consent, of scratching an itch that conventional sex just can't scratch. Sometimes it's not even about sex at all, but about the relationship between the dom and the sub.

Your story could very well be a 'true' bdsm scenario. It's hard to tell as you're giving the side of the dom with very little input from the sub. Too add to that you have things like this,

Quote:
This bitch was about to find out what happened to cock teases like her, and he didn't care if she would like it or not.
Doesn't sound like a very good dom to me. Of course, it could just be a part of their 'thing', but that's not explained anywhere. Above all else, a good dom cares about what their sub needs and their limits.

I'm not sure I would bother with changing the category though. Or even rewriting stuff to make it clearer. If you're happy with your story and feel it belongs in BDSM, just leave it there and move on. If someone takes issue with it they'll report it and then the site owner will decide if it should be moved or not. Suppose you could add an author's note at the beginning or end, clarifying that their activity is consensual, but I wouldn't consider it a must.

My 2c.
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Old 12-17-2016, 03:15 PM   #3
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I read your story, and can easily see how your intent for a consensual encounter could be missed. Frankly, for me it did sound non-consensual.
Since this was not your intent, and doesn't reflect what was in your mind, I would consider an edit.

A rather simple, if blunt, way might be to modify the initial introduction. One problem is the stress placed on the point that she was only expecting petting/kissing due to being in her office, etc. You might could add a brief thought stream which gives a hint of the kinky things they had been discussing, and now they could barely hold back their need to take it into reality, etc. I wasn't very convinced about the setting being in her office, why? Then perhaps lock in the consensual part with a gentle (caring) question from the Dom to make sure she was still ready to try this, etc. (just some random examples, not trying to rewrite it for you)

In my mind, something like this would have prepared me for the rest of what followed. The main reason for doing any editing would be to clarify how you saw the scene as you were writing it. Sometimes we read between the lines as we're writing, filling in feelings that others would not see. Thus, I would choose to edit rather than move it to a category that clearly wasn't in your mind.

Overall, nice work and don't over stress about it. (I should add, these are just my impressions as I don't consider myself an experienced writer, editor or critic. So with many things, it might be best to take this with a bit of salt)
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Old 12-17-2016, 05:07 PM   #4
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After having written here for a while, you'll come to ignore just one or two suggestions on bad category replacement. Just as soon as you moved this one to nonconsent, you'd surely get a couple of suggestions that it should be in BDSM. Make the best guess you can with the knowledge that if it's way off in terms of Literotica categories, the editor will put it in another category herself anyway.

Most of the reading of your story will be within the first week, when it's still on the main and hub new story lists. Fooling around with it after that isn't going to give you much of a payoff anyway even if the complaining reader(s) has/have a point.
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Old 12-18-2016, 08:54 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalypsoInPhilly View Post
I posted this story in BDSM: https://www.literotica.com/s/her-office

But I received a comment saying it sounds like rape or at least non-consent (despite the ending).
I would never intentionally describe actual rape in my writings; it is NOT a turn-on for me or my partner, so I'd like feedback on whether I should edit the story to make it clear that this is true bondage/domination only...or if I should leave the story as it is, but change the category to non-consent/reluctance.

I appreciate any comments, as I'm new to posting stories here (although I've been a devoted reader for quite a while).
It certainly reads as NC to me. She might have been expecting to make out, but it's pretty clear that what he does goes well beyond anything she's agreed to. The fact that she smiles at him afterwards doesn't retroactively make it consensual.

(FWIW, a lot of the NC stories have a "victim comes to enjoy it" ending, for reasons related to category guidelines.)

Unless you feel like editing to make it clear that this is pre-agreed "consensual nonconsent", I think it'd fit better in the NC category. Though like SR has said, most views come in the first week or two.
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Old 12-20-2016, 09:55 AM   #6
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It's pretty strong, I agree with the member above. I would definitely say NC. It's really well written btw.
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Old 12-21-2016, 12:06 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikyc View Post
Some individuals in 'the scene' can be very anal about these things. It's understandable, to an extent, because they don't want their lifestyle/hobby to be confused with exploitation, abuse and rape. To them it's all about trust and consent, of scratching an itch that conventional sex just can't scratch. Sometimes it's not even about sex at all, but about the relationship between the dom and the sub.
Being someone in "the scene" I am quite anal about it for the exact reason nikyc mentioned above. I have done rape role play, but there was a pretty long conversation both before and after the scene. That was agreed upon non consent before it started, and was absolutely certain that "NO!" was not a safeword.

In my opinion there are a few parts of your story that borders on needing to be reported.

Now with my harsh criticism above, it is well written, and you obviously were not trying to offend anyone. I appreciate the fact you are trying to get it moved.
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Old 09-13-2017, 07:54 AM   #8
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Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I recently received a similar comment on a story I posted a few days ago in the BDSM category. I was under the impression that although healthy BDSM practice in the real world relies strongly on consent among all parties involved, the term itself does not automatically encompass consent of any sort.
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:54 PM   #9
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No, no one else can control what BDSM consists of in your stories. B is for bondage whatever, D is for domination whatever, S is for sadism whatever, and M is for masochism whatever. Your use of it isn't controlled by anyone else's definition. Your characters can even do it "wrong" in your stories, if you like.
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:40 PM   #10
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Kind of a gray area. By what true BDSM stands for consent needs to there, its the one concrete rule.

Now you say until the end? Maybe you did a role play type thing? But if you mean it was 'force force force" then one of those implausible "oh now I really like it and will cum like a fountain." then you would be better off in non con.

I say that not just based on what BDSM is supposed to be, but seeing the goal for writers here is positive comments and scores, then you would have gotten a better response in the category that enjoys non or dubious consent.

So maybe try and think of who the story might appeal to more.

In fairness to you the BDSM market has been over run with rape porn on amazon and other venues and sites like this because its a coy way of writing pure rape-not saying your story was-and getting it through screening because its being called BDSM.

So maybe if its starts dubious you had some knee jerk votes from purists who want obvious consent. Which is what there should be anyway unless writing for the dub con crowd.
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:43 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calista85 View Post
Kind of a gray area. By what true BDSM stands for consent needs to there, its the one concrete rule.
No, there are no concrete rules. Name who has the authority to make rules on what can and cannot be an aspect of BDSM. None of the elements of BDSM is owned by some club.

Sure, readers can slam a story that doesn't follow rules they are trying to assert, but other readers will just thumb their noses at those trying to be authorities on the issue that they aren't. The "I call the rules" people scream and holler at the success of a book series like "50 Shades of Grey," but it just keeps on selling to those who don't recognize someone else's right to make the rules.

And the kicker, for authors grousing about this, is the "50 Shades of Grey" opened up the market for their books as well.
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Old 09-13-2017, 06:07 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sr71plt View Post
No, there are no concrete rules. Name who has the authority to make rules on what can and cannot be an aspect of BDSM. None of the elements of BDSM is owned by some club.

Sure, readers can slam a story that doesn't follow rules they are trying to assert, but other readers will just thumb their noses at those trying to be authorities on the issue that they aren't. The "I call the rules" people scream and holler at the success of a book series like "50 Shades of Grey," but it just keeps on selling to those who don't recognize someone else's right to make the rules.

And the kicker, for authors grousing about this, is the "50 Shades of Grey" opened up the market for their books as well.
I suppose my authority would be being in the lifestyle for a long time-the 85 is not my birth year, its a lucky number.

Non consent is rape so if there is no consent its non consent, if its rough no holds bar etc with consent its BDSM or there wouldn't be two categories

But after some time here reading I decided to create an username and have some fun here so I don't want to argue.

So let's look at this from a different angle and one that is more geared towards this site specifically.

The author said his story looked like non consent until the end. I'm guessing twist ending or some reveal doesn't matter. But if its non con for the vast majority of it, why not post it in the section where that is exactly what the readers there want? As opposed to BDSM that does have a core readership that adheres to consent and take some heat?

So the question was about category so sticking to category I would say if they writ e a similar story try non consent and see if you make out better? But disclaimer there would be if it looks non con all the way, then becomes consent the hardcore non con crowd gets mad because you killed their rape fantasy.

But you don't know until you try.

On 50 shades the series was not worth the ridiculous hype it received it was a mish mosh of every possible women's romance combined with the addition of a butt plug and some spanking. People who took it as a representative of what true dominant should be are probably going to find out the hard way gray was an abuser.

But people who took it for what it was? A poorly written play off another author's work that pushed the buttons of the harlequin and Nora Roberts crowd? Sure it was entertaining enough.

So what I'm saying is people who took it seriously pro or con wasted too much energy on it. It was fluff and people love fluff. Good on her for the great sales.

As for opening a door? Only for the already stereo typed bad boy abuser wooing the good girl type stories. The average BDSM story you could find here or similar sites or buy on a site like smashwords would make the soccer moms drop it like its hot. Because it was standard soap opera with spanking, it did nothing to prepare them for a story like the one linked here.

Interesting the sequel had a good opening week-the book not the second movie-and after that you heard nothing about it, no hype no stories of rope sales going up no real attention...the definition of fifteen minutes.

Thanks for the discussion.
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Old 09-13-2017, 06:17 PM   #13
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The success with readers of "50 Shades of Grey" was an obvious and effective negation of the claim that writing BDSM had to follow someone's rules. End of story.
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Old 09-13-2017, 06:58 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sr71plt View Post
The success with readers of "50 Shades of Grey" was an obvious and effective negation of the claim that writing BDSM had to follow someone's rules. End of story.
You're beating a straw man here. Nobody was saying that "BDSM" stories that ignore principles of consent can't be commercially successful. The issue is whether they're harmful, and if so, whether making a buck justifies that harm.

You don't have to agree with the idea that they're harmful - I'm undecided myself on that point - but given how often I've seen you participate in this particular debate, it surprises me that you still don't seem to understand why people get cranky about stories that conflate BDSM and non-con.
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Old 09-13-2017, 07:01 PM   #15
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That's no different from writing murder mysteries or incest. There are no rules in writing about these things or how to write them.

And, no, the BDSM clubbers bring up this topic precisely to try to impose rules. I'm not the one beating a dead horse. I don't initiate threads about writing--or performing--BDSM.
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Old 09-13-2017, 08:20 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sr71plt View Post
That's no different from writing murder mysteries or incest. There are no rules in writing about these things or how to write them.
It's hugely different to murder mysteries. Murder mysteries don't tend to confuse their readers about what murder is, or what the associated ethical issues are.

I don't read incest fiction, so I can't comment on that example.
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Old 09-13-2017, 10:51 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bramblethorn View Post
It's hugely different to murder mysteries. Murder mysteries don't tend to confuse their readers about what murder is, or what the associated ethical issues are.

I don't read incest fiction, so I can't comment on that example.
There can be an infinite number of ways, means, and morals attached to a murder mystery.

I repeat, in writing there are no rules of what a writer can write about BDSM and the separate elements of BDSM are simply categories of acts that can be done and written about in any way that happens--and there's no "rule" and no one with authority to make and enforce rules that can't say BDSM can't be written counter to the rules that BDSM players like you are trying to establish. There are, of course, laws about actually practicing the elements of BDSM, but neither you nor any other poster on Literotica make or enforce those laws--and they don't cover writing about them.

The popularity with readers of the "50 Shades of Grey" series illustrates this lack of rules and a recognized authority for rules in this area, just like other areas of literature. Trends in literature don't get established by following rules set by some self-appointed "authority."

I'll ask you the same thing I asked the other poster on this. Who are you putting forward as a legitimate authority on setting the rules for any aspect of BDSM--either doing it or writing about it?

If folks don't want me to point out that there aren't any rules to what a writer can choose to write about in BDSM, just like in areas of murder, incest, or even underage (and writing it isn't the same thing as having it accepted at Literotica), they can stop making the false statement that there are rules involved that anyone has to follow.
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Old 09-14-2017, 12:21 AM   #18
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I have a similar question to part of this.
How do I change the category for my story?
I also have one slugged BDSM which on reflection I agree is better grouped under reluctant/nonconsent. I just don't know how to make that change.
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Old 09-14-2017, 01:43 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sr71plt View Post
There can be an infinite number of ways, means, and morals attached to a murder mystery.

I repeat, in writing there are no rules of what a writer can write about BDSM and the separate elements of BDSM are simply categories of acts that can be done and written about in any way that happens--and there's no "rule" and no one with authority to make and enforce rules that can't say BDSM can't be written counter to the rules that BDSM players like you are trying to establish.
This thread didn't start with questions about what is permitted in writing about BDSM. It started with a writer who was concerned about feedback from readers who didn't feel that "BDSM" was a good category for the story.

If you want to talk about the legality or site rules for writing about BDSM, that's your prerogative. I'm not very interested in that discussion because there's simply not much to discuss; as you say, there aren't any such rules, end of story. Nobody else is talking about that question and I'm not sure how you got the impression that they were.

In the interests of providing a useful response to the OP, I'm more interested in discussing it in the context of the original post. If an author wants to avoid a situation where readers are unhappy with the story categorisation, then yes, there are some fairly well-established rules relevant to that.

Quote:
The popularity with readers of the "50 Shades of Grey" series illustrates this lack of rules and a recognized authority for rules in this area, just like other areas of literature. Trends in literature don't get established by following rules set by some self-appointed "authority."
50SoG does indeed illustrate that you can achieve commercial success without worrying about this sort of stuff, but that's irrelevant. Nobody was saying otherwise, and it's not what the OP was asking about.

Much more relevant to the OP's question, 50SoG also demonstrated that if you call a story "BDSM" while violating certain expectations about consent, then yes, the BDSM community (-ies, more like) will complain about that.

Quote:
I'll ask you the same thing I asked the other poster on this. Who are you putting forward as a legitimate authority on setting the rules for any aspect of BDSM--either doing it or writing about it?
For the rules that are relevant to the OP's question (paraphrasing, "how do I write a BDSM story without getting complaints from people who don't accept the content as BDSM?"), you could start with Jay Wiseman, Dossie Easton, or Janet Hardy/Catherine Liszt/Lady Green; all of those are people who've been active within BDSM circles for many years, and their work is pretty broadly accepted in those circles. There are probably quite a few others, but that should be a good place to start.

Every writer has a slightly different take on BDSM, and there's ongoing debate about some stuff like the RACK vs SSC philosophies. Reading a range of those authors will give a good sense for where there is and isn't consensus. But AFAICT such authors are unanimous on the idea that informed prior consent is essential to BDSM.

It's a bit like asking "what is correct English?" - there is no one God-given authority, but there are some pretty well-respected ones, and if you break a rule that all of them agree on, you can expect readers to grumble about it.

Quote:
If folks don't want me to point out that there aren't any rules to what a writer can choose to write about in BDSM, just like in areas of murder, incest, or even underage (and writing it isn't the same thing as having it accepted at Literotica), they can stop making the false statement that there are rules involved that anyone has to follow.
You can point it out all you like, but you're beating on a straw man and addressing a question that has precious little to do with what the OP actually asked.
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Old 09-14-2017, 01:46 AM   #20
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdodger View Post
I have a similar question to part of this.
How do I change the category for my story?
I also have one slugged BDSM which on reflection I agree is better grouped under reluctant/nonconsent. I just don't know how to make that change.
Hey, why is this still calling me a Virgin? I changed my description to Occasional Writer. I know it got saved, I see it on my Works list.
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Old 09-14-2017, 02:03 AM   #21
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Hey, why is this still calling me a Virgin? I changed my description to Occasional Writer. I know it got saved, I see it on my Works list.
You'll be called a virgin until you've reached a set number of posts (I don't know how many) and you won't be able to provide your own descriptor until later either.
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Old 09-14-2017, 02:05 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Bramblethorn View Post
This thread didn't start with questions about what is permitted in writing about BDSM.
The thread came around to talking about rules--even "concrete rules." That's when I commented and what I was commenting on.

It's sort of irrelevant now where the thread started--that was nine months ago.
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Old 09-14-2017, 05:21 AM   #23
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You'll be called a virgin until you've reached a set number of posts (I don't know how many) and you won't be able to provide your own descriptor until later either.
There's an "experienced" higher up the thread with 45 posts; then there's another threshold at 100, maybe 200, 500 definitely. Your PM allowance also goes up, from what I remember (or that might be system enhancements, which happen quietly)
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Old 09-14-2017, 06:57 AM   #24
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To Srplt71

I mentioned I wasn't going to waste time arguing a difference of opinion, but this actually nagged at me last night.

So as for whose authority I have it on that consent is necessary? Why not try and prove yourself right and go out and sexually assault someone and when the police come calling tell them to get lost because consent isn't required.

If BDSM-or any sex act- did not require consent....all you would have is rape.

So if there is no consent in BDSM you're saying a woman can be beaten, literally, tied to a bed and gang banged and its all okay because consent isn't necessary? That anyone in that lifestyle is saying hey, you can commit all manner of atrocity to me and I have no say over it?

Rape is a crime, the non consent here is fantasy, but by saying in real life there is no consent required in BDSM you're advocating rape.

You should think about that next time you go around saying consent isn't necessary because at that point again you're being a proponent of rape and sexual assault

Stressed that twice because what I'm hoping is that you're just a stubborn opinionated type who won't admit he's wrong even if all the proof is in front of him. Or maybe you just stir the pot.

But if you really believe women-or men-don't need to give their consent, then you're a supporter of rape.
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Old 09-14-2017, 01:48 PM   #25
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This is a story site. The thread was about story category. I have responded to the issue of writing--and the rules of writing once the concept of "rules" was introduced. How the various categories work out in real life is not relevant to either the thread topic or my responses to it. If you didn't make clear that you were posting to an issue that was beyond the thread topic--category posting of Literotica stories--that's your problem, not mine. You are going after me on something that was not part of my discussion.

But taking the discussion there, for you to say there are concrete rules for performing BDSM, you should qualify that--you should put it as "there are concrete rules for it if you want to do it safely." You didn't do that. And it remains that the performing of bondage, domination, sadism, and masochism does not ipso facto come with any rules. They are acts that can be/and are applied both safely and not safely. There are no rules for it and there's no guarantee it will be done safely (and most people who get into this stuff aren't running rules over in their head when they do it--they go where obsession and the beat of arousal leads them) unless you clarify that the "rules" apply to doing it safely. You didn't.

But back to this is a story site and the thread was opened about categorizing stories written about it. Not in actually doing it.

If you can't separate fictional writing from actual process in your mind and keep in mind that this is a writing site, maybe you're posting to the wrong Web site.

You too Bram.
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