More than I've been able to process or even think about employing and that's of the few I understand enough to attempt. However knowing of the existance is a start the rest comes with thought and practice but most of all reading what it is and seeing how it's employed. As to being dogged well sometimes you have to stop waving steak around in the air and realise some dogs aren't here to learn but here to have a run in the sunshine piss on the odd bush and move on.
Bflag's Pleasures of Criticism
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More than I've been able to process or even think about employing and that's of the few I understand enough to attempt. However knowing of the existance is a start the rest comes with thought and practice but most of all reading what it is and seeing how it's employed. As to being dogged well sometimes you have to stop waving steak around in the air and realise some dogs aren't here to learn but here to have a run in the sunshine piss on the odd bush and move on.
I have been meaning to comment on this however your poetry takes a deal of time to get to the right level of readership b fore I feel confident enough to say anything. The colours are you Vicente pervasive and diminish from bright to grey, but will comment further when I think I'm ready.
twelveoone
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I am good at what I do.i quite agree
hopefully i've improved a bit since i wrote that
twelveoone
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How do we disagree? Means to an end? Outside of that, every better poet here knows that to write it you have to read it. Every real poet knows that this is work. And the real work is placement of the chosen words.
twelveoone
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Quick and easy lesson and you won't learn it from poets, this "poem" is timing based, and intersected as a joke, it is closer to comedy. Every thing that is casual looking is not, but placed.
Palette mixing. Pink and white are predominate, take every colour in the poem, mix them and with age you wind up with something like decrepit albino flesh, reinforcement of the intersection. Browned would be assumed, age and location and lead line. Not obvious, not supposed to be, but it will register. Psychological impressment. (impress meaning burying so they register on a not quite conscious level) In so-called formal poetry the same is done, bflagsst did it above using more traditional poetic tools.
This is what impresses me about you, you attempt to learn, this is how everybody should operate, as a consequence, you are shown, not just by me.
On a further note the basic poem was written in about an half hour, the first three lines and mickey mouse were given, witnessed as I walked on a path. As said this is a comedy template, edit- at least twice as much garbage discarded and then punch up; "fucking pink", etc. I came up with.
You learn tricks, what is generally thought of as poetry are templated tricks, do you see why I'm not easily impressed? The real work is in the integration, and the discarding. I would guess bflag threw out about twice as what is in the poem.
I say these things, it is not liked in certain quarters as poets sometimes like to think of themselves as somewhat special. No, they just work (sometimes) like a son of a bitch with words.
Now the "great" Senna, we agree on the discarding, we disagree on the fleshing.
butters
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i have problems with both once they're down on the screen
used to write far longer pieces and, given time, found most of it could be junked to reveal the real poem underneath. but now i tend to do that mentally as i write, trying to write from that core feeling/image i'm getting... so lose a lot of junk along the way. and then i'm usually left with something short i find hard to trim back further, or see where i can add to make improvements. hopefully, this should improve over time as i gain better insight and tools in my box.
twelveoone
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Reader Z (butters, you know you are)*sits up straight* sowwy
i don'twhen the discourse is civil, despite some of the discussion being a little complex, people read and the cogs turn.
this site, specifically this poetry forum, harbours a wealth of knowledge in the likes of yourself, bflagsst, angelina, and others - it can be such a valuable resource for poets at all stages of development. when discussions are both amicable and pertinent AND challenging, what a treat for us reading them!
reprise...
Reader x sees (more correctly feels) the "content" A by the "hidden operations" of B and C. This is what I assume you are saying, if so I somewhat agree.
Reader y may be to aware to some degree of the "hidden operations" - a good description of the better poets here?
Now reader z. may be pick up on the fact that, the writer may be showing something like: this is Not A, or this is Not B, or this is Not C, a different level of hidden operation. All esoteric writing requires this, and poetry is maybe the most
esoteric of writing.
Generally I think bflagsst is attempting to get reader X to the Y level. Main problem Reader X often doesn't know there is something beyond, there is always something beyond.
You have a good idea for a line of poetry and you roll with it. It comes from somewhere, a special grammar has developed where poetic lines are pre-fabricated before release. It's almost determined, an anti-free will emergence. Training does go into it, a muscle is tended to that can flex out suitable lines to jot down.
Then there's the actual leg work, you have fragments of lines and stanza that appear from behind that thing. But this masters stage has to make the poem into something wholly formed and ready for consumption. I love this next poem because it seems to be about the chasm between the thing behind the mind where the mind makes that matter into a finished product:
a mote in gods i
by live4passion©
with in depths so yawning wide defies imagination
with in cozy fields of comfort hide ember glowing
amber tides to wash the weary mind
with
out cold tendriled breath fingers whisper beckon, softly keens
the threshold, defiant grasp released bejeweled bosom comforts
where no comfort lies
a gaze is rising fearless open, piercing canvas, spills that bide
a time so long forgotten lives no memory deep, no thought resides
to mist the waking dying visions
hands cup trembling dew drops, tumble, plume, alight to crystallize
mild with hints of seeming deeper stillness place in treasures hide
heaped a midden wide
each diamonds
glint
a mote in gods i
..............................
Do I wholly accept this poem as is and proclaim it a great project? No. It's missing some content and context. It seems to be more that thing behind than a construction finished with something pressing to say. I love it though. Where I asked of Foehn, "Are you really saying something important here?" and with a little study I can answer. Live4passion kind of stays in the realm of: you're saying something really basic about a complex idea, but you're saying it in a real neat way.
twelveoone
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line out of context:
mild with hints of seeming deeper stillness place in treasures hide
what is place doing? in treasures hide
looks like mere inverted syntax
the line IS OUT of context, but in the poem are other figures that look overly poetized i.e. bejeweled bosom
with in cozy fields of comfort hide ember glowing
amber tides to wash the weary mind
he is dancing here and leading off with a jarred thought:
with in depths so yawning wide defies imagination
yes, I agree with your assessment in the absence of knowing what the intent of yawning is, perhaps here:
a mote in gods i
as said, there is always something beyond, perhaps merely L4P saw it, attempted it.
Generally this is the kind of poem that would be raked over the coals.
twelveoone
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...if I did. it would be missed
so I don't
fuck me and all the fun and games
parse it interlocking pattern of threes on foehn's poem
an assessment, either it is right or wrong
readers fall into predictable patterns also
Serious question bflagsst:
Why do I write such forgettable poems?
Serious answer:
Because I can, it is all timing and perception. Ya know, falling anvils, Acme props,
beep, beep
pelegrino
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I wanted to reply to this post a few weeks ago but my autumnal travels caught up with me again and I have very little free time or internet access now.
Anyhow, I want to point out a few things that you may be missing:
1. The rebetiko song THE PRIME MINISTERS is political without being "party political" and it is written by an author who did not have any strong political views. You will notice that it is not vindictive in any sense but rather satirical, it is making fun of politicians but from a marginalized "rempetis" point of view; He proposes not to harm them but to get them stone cause they are useless in any way, while at the same time he is regretting the death of three (in the authors estimation) good prime ministers. In that way this is not a song that talks merely about Greek political situation in the 30ies. It transcends rebetiko boundaries and it becomes a global song to which people may relate and as long as people dissatisfied with their politicians will exist it transcends time and it is again relevant globally. I don’t know of any such working class cajuns/zydecos from USA from the same period, but I don’t doubt their existence. I hope you don't mean Woody Guthrie or any of the other great song writers of the 30ies(?) Perhaps you could refer me to some such songs with international appeal.
2. Since you indentify with the Seikilos Epitaph better as a poet and lover of melody help me understand whether you think that this is an all important song to you.
To me its main (lyrical) subject is the futility of life and the wisdom in having as much of a good time as we can while still alive. This is a fine theme and a fine message and I indentify also as far as the song allows me to. But as it is given I don’t find anything great about it in either poetical or musical terms.
Let us not forget that this is only an epigram found on the tomb of an ancient bon viveur, otherwise unimportant.
I believe that its fame lies not in its poetical artistry (or musical merit for that matter) but merely in the fact that it is one of the very few surviving examples of ancient Greek music that nowadays we consider "main stream". If great ancient works of music had survived then its unimportance by comparison probably would show clearly. (We may some day get there, as I understand new scientific methods are been developed presently for research into ancient music).
At all events, the subject of futility of life and having a good time has never left Greek verse (or other nations verse) throughout the centuries and in rebetiko music in particular there are plenty of far more better developed and comprehensive examples of treating the same subject(s), from which I have translated the following which is far better in my opinion in both music construction and lyrical development and yet reminds one very much of the Seikilos song (in message, that is):
YOUTH
Finally, I believe that (given the availability of a good rebetiko orchestra) we could turn the melody and verse of the Seikilos song into a good rebetiko contemporary song in no time.
I think that the subject we discussed is very important but I perceive a tendency in your part to downplay the importance of political song and political art in general. If that is so, it's your prerogative, but it does not usually apply to other, more politically minded artists.
twelveoone
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re: Woody
this land is your land, this land is my land...
How many people hear it as a national parks advert instead of a communistic statement?
Why does the Bruce get upset from time to time?
re: politics
anyone that doesn't realize the great works served a political purpose and functioned as propaganda is missing something
i.e. Song of Roland, Dante's tiff (The Divine Comedy), Shakespeare's blatant Tudor ass suckery
or if not written so will be made to serve
the Wehrmacht marching east with copies of Hölderlin...
funny how the mind works
did you find your three readers?
mine left years ago
bogusagain
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William Blake's Jerusalem was an anti-establishment poem, he was worried it would get him arrested for sedition. He was a Bonopartist when people thought Bonoparte would rid Europe of monarchies. However, like Woody Gutherie's This Land is My Land, Jerusalem was assimilated into establishment mulch and is now sung in Britain's was privileged and establishment schools.
pensivepoet
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Hey 12, and correct me if i'm wrong, but if i remember correctly, you mentioned you didn't care for dylan's music or writing. Could you expound?
I'm not being snarky. For a long time i ignored the bob, but i've come to appreciated much of his stuff. Just curious what your deeper thoughts on dylan are.
pelegrino
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I agree with most you say, 1201, and also with Bogus and the information he gives.
If we accept Aristotle's proposition that man is the only animal that can be defined as "political", then every human act can also be defined as a political act, either passive or active, either reactionary or progressive.
You give me food for (poetic) thought with your "Shakespeare's blatant Tudor ass suckery"! Thanks for this, it may turn into a project in my mind and it may finally get me my three readers.
Propaganda only serves a purpose for a very limited time before the message has to be tossed, or tweaked and recast. The work of Dante, 1963 Bob Dylan, Woody and Pete Seeger says nothing about 2014 politics, culture, climate(regardless of the fact the Bob Dylan isn't quite dead or finished writing songs yet.) They're of interest for their storytelling, whether the melody and Old Italian verse still sounds appealing to today's listener, whether or not they made any impact at all on the CULTURE in their time for the historical record.
They're frozen in time, their works are artefacts of interest to scholars and fans of easy listening Americana.
Holderlin was recast into a useful form by Heidegger. Heidegger's Holderlin is a joke today for what it was meant to be, because we and the German people are so wise to how propaganda works. Propaganda will never work on us again, or until we've been made fools and can laugh at the propagandist gone by, the living relic that was Pete Seeger the handful of times I saw him perform in old age on the Hudson river boat.
The political nature of artistic expression is very short lived, if at all prescient to any movement's real life actions. The culture makes the politic, and art trails behind like a dog waiting for something to talk about. I thought Bob Dylan must have really changed people's thinking on war, civil rights. I was sure kids were listening to Master's of War, Blowin in the Wind and Oxford Town and then just dove head first into the local student nonviolent coordinating committee -- as if the songs themselves didn't just sprout these orgs out of the aether.
But that's not possible. There is no work of artistic expression that begins or ends anything of a political nature. Art is a sideshow, focuses nothing but ideas already generated by the language people speak day to day, creates nothing of impact in the political realm whatsoever aside from some fleeting repetitive slogan the politician can angle on ie Tippecanoe and Tyler Too... Come/Get Together... Born in the USA... just completely devoid of substance.
We can only respect Ginsberg this year because he was talking about culture and not politics. His contemporaries are dead and buried, there is no 60s, 70s political poet to speak of because a poem about politics is dated as soon as it's published(and likely says nothing of the artist besides for their parroting of a well-worn slogan that any person of substance has already cynically glinted.)
Dante's poem is a cultural history cast as political prophecy, the grand 'fuck you' by an exile. It had no bearing on the political climate ever, anywhere. It's of importance because it is one of the primary works that formalized the Tuscan dialect which birthed modern Italian, the art form is tied to the language, the poem pretty much enframed an emergent culture that modern Italians are bound to. Artistic expression can change how people talk, Shakespeare's new words, his sonnet as mode of expression that we're still utilizing.
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pensivepoet
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~there is no work of artistic expression that begins or ends anything of a political nature.
A sideshow, a dog waiting....
Just entertainment in it's day?
Nostalgia in the making?
I'd like to believe that artistic expression is capable of more.
After 9/11 the radio went frantic with toby keith putting a boot up their ass, lee greenwood's god bless the usa, and a shitload of others.
Artistic expression? Not to me
But influential? I think so
If what you say is true, and perhaps it is,
If artistic expression is not even a bit player to the actual stage of events, then God help us.
But music and literature past and present do influence me. Makes me think, wonder~question
Sometimes shapes my thoughts and feelings.
I think maybe the truth lies between what you say and what i hope.
A sideshow, a dog waiting....
Just entertainment in it's day?
Nostalgia in the making?
I'd like to believe that artistic expression is capable of more.
After 9/11 the radio went frantic with toby keith putting a boot up their ass, lee greenwood's god bless the usa, and a shitload of others.
Artistic expression? Not to me
But influential? I think so
If what you say is true, and perhaps it is,
If artistic expression is not even a bit player to the actual stage of events, then God help us.
But music and literature past and present do influence me. Makes me think, wonder~question
Sometimes shapes my thoughts and feelings.
I think maybe the truth lies between what you say and what i hope.
pensivepoet
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And it could be somewhat argued that journalism is artistic expression. Even if biased or fictionalized. Honesty is not a prerequisete to art.
Think of the photos
Cambodia, auschwitz, the little girl burning from napalm, a firefighter carrying a dead baby.
I think these expressions have great influence. And based on how the mind works, poetry, fiction, music, must also have an impact.
Perhaps as subtle as a vote
Which supposedly, is where politics begins
Think of the photos
Cambodia, auschwitz, the little girl burning from napalm, a firefighter carrying a dead baby.
I think these expressions have great influence. And based on how the mind works, poetry, fiction, music, must also have an impact.
Perhaps as subtle as a vote
Which supposedly, is where politics begins
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butters
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now this is can get behind
Artistic expression is capable of creating a vessel for transferring cultural symbols, ideas, ideals from generation to generation, century to century. Politics in stable countries is the least important way a culture expresses its identity.
When the post-9/11 radio reflected certain ideas about America it buried other artists. My favorite group was Rage Against the Machine. At the time they were still supporting a tour and singles from their final album and the biggest regional radio stations ceased promoting them on air.
The closest musical acts get to issues are always in support of pre-existing structures. They can provide a flow of money to charities and organizations that already exist, but they almost universally focus their energy on political issues outside of their country of origin. Chiapas and Rage Against the Machine, Tibet and the Beastie Boys, Coldplay/Bono and African debt relief, musicians against South African Apartheid. And it's very rare that these acts are bringing awareness through their popular song and dance act, it's usually them using their media attention to talk about their personal foreign issue.
Poetry is just so far removed from this that I don't know that it's even worth comparing how musicians have used their platforms to how William Blake or Tennyson made themselves 'political'. Charge of the Light Brigade matters because of how it disseminated an archetype of modern hero that is still relevant today in film, TV, literature, photo journalism.
I wanted to reply to this post a few weeks ago but my autumnal travels caught up with me again and I have very little free time or internet access now.
Anyhow, I want to point out a few things that you may be missing:
1. The rebetiko song THE PRIME MINISTERS is political without being "party political" and it is written by an author who did not have any strong political views. You will notice that it is not vindictive in any sense but rather satirical, it is making fun of politicians but from a marginalized "rempetis" point of view; He proposes not to harm them but to get them stone cause they are useless in any way, while at the same time he is regretting the death of three (in the authors estimation) good prime ministers. In that way this is not a song that talks merely about Greek political situation in the 30ies. It transcends rebetiko boundaries and it becomes a global song to which people may relate and as long as people dissatisfied with their politicians will exist it transcends time and it is again relevant globally. I don’t know of any such working class cajuns/zydecos from USA from the same period, but I don’t doubt their existence. I hope you don't mean Woody Guthrie or any of the other great song writers of the 30ies(?) Perhaps you could refer me to some such songs with international appeal.
2. Since you indentify with the Seikilos Epitaph better as a poet and lover of melody help me understand whether you think that this is an all important song to you.
To me its main (lyrical) subject is the futility of life and the wisdom in having as much of a good time as we can while still alive. This is a fine theme and a fine message and I indentify also as far as the song allows me to. But as it is given I don’t find anything great about it in either poetical or musical terms.
Let us not forget that this is only an epigram found on the tomb of an ancient bon viveur, otherwise unimportant.
I believe that its fame lies not in its poetical artistry (or musical merit for that matter) but merely in the fact that it is one of the very few surviving examples of ancient Greek music that nowadays we consider "main stream". If great ancient works of music had survived then its unimportance by comparison probably would show clearly. (We may some day get there, as I understand new scientific methods are been developed presently for research into ancient music).
At all events, the subject of futility of life and having a good time has never left Greek verse (or other nations verse) throughout the centuries and in rebetiko music in particular there are plenty of far more better developed and comprehensive examples of treating the same subject(s), from which I have translated the following which is far better in my opinion in both music construction and lyrical development and yet reminds one very much of the Seikilos song (in message, that is):
YOUTH
Finally, I believe that (given the availability of a good rebetiko orchestra) we could turn the melody and verse of the Seikilos song into a good rebetiko contemporary song in no time.
I think that the subject we discussed is very important but I perceive a tendency in your part to downplay the importance of political song and political art in general. If that is so, it's your prerogative, but it does not usually apply to other, more politically minded artists.
I can respond to your second point, the first I've tried to say it might be entirely relevant to Greeks engaged in the political thought of their country but it doesn't engage me at all as a foreigner.
As far as why Seikilos interests me and whether it's nothing but a toss away epigram on a headstone -- I happen to be a noisome epigrammatic poet myself.
The melody, chords, lyrics and inscription are a vessel the artist of the grave marker meant to last for as long as the stone was legible, in "deathless remembrance". Now Seikilos the Deathless' everlasting expression will be in cultural memory for as long as our digital memory remains.
It's not incredibly important to parse what the artist had to say within the melody, but the lasting nature of the form itself grants us insight into an idea about death that we share.
The poem itself isn't cynical, shares what is common in every other culture that buries their dead. Life is short and even shorter of meaningful expression, let's attempt a lasting expression. Artists aren't going to direct or impede who's bombing who this year, there are more important avenues for artists to attempt to outlive their mortal lives.
pelegrino
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You still miss a few points out of what is been discussed (and I don't mean only in respect to your reply to me but to others also), or perhaps you cannot be bothered any further, which is fine with me.
Still, all political art is not necessarily propaganda,do you think Lennon's "Imagine" is propaganda? To me it is propagating a better world, so I suppose it is, but as 1201 said, all great art may be political, but still it is art, full stop.
(Listen to some Brecht-Eisler songs if you think Dylan and Seeger are not relevant anymore, see what you make out of them).
Plus, all propaganda is not necessarily bad, artless or irrelevant. It depends on whether it is propagating the truth or lies, and even if lies as in the "Shakespeare Tudor ass sucking" it still may be great art .
Anyhow, I refer you to Aristotle's proposition above.
Whatever we say (either artistically or otherwise), if we are serious about it, it is a political statement.
Whether you choose to reply to this post or not, and the way you do it or not, the words you choose or you don't, you adopt a political stance.
And so was Seikilos in adopting his burial song.
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bogusagain
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Precisely! All art is political, even the art that abstains from the political. To have no political point to make, is political as it accepts the status quo or is indifferent to change or accepting of change.
It's like pointless art, it has a point, even if the point is to be pointless. The old pointless paradox. The point is, there is no point. The politics is, there is no politics.
Senna Jawa
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Originally Posted by pelegrino:
Pelegrino and bogusagain, you can win the war about WORD political. (That's what propaganda from every side likes you to believe). So, you won. Now what? Nothing! It's cheap.
In a meta-sense, the view that everything is political is nonsensical (makes no sense, it does not buy you anything), even if in the direct sense you can have your way (while others can have it their way).
Whether you choose to reply to this post or not, and the way you do it or not, the words you choose or you don't, you adopt a political stance.
Pelegrino and bogusagain, you can win the war about WORD political. (That's what propaganda from every side likes you to believe). So, you won. Now what? Nothing! It's cheap.
In a meta-sense, the view that everything is political is nonsensical (makes no sense, it does not buy you anything), even if in the direct sense you can have your way (while others can have it their way).
Senna Jawa
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"Political"? Another example: altruistic.
Some people claim, that everything is political; but actually--they do not claim, they define the word political.
The same or other people define word altruistic or (il)logically claim that nothing is altruistic. They claim that whatever you choose to do brings you satisfaction, pleasure, is egoistic. Thus everything according to them, i.e. to their definition, is egoistic; and nothing is altruistic.
You can win this war about words but it's meaningless, it's cheap.
In both cases: political or altruistic/egoistic, the claims about everything or nothing are a waste of otherwise meaningful words.
Some people claim, that everything is political; but actually--they do not claim, they define the word political.
The same or other people define word altruistic or (il)logically claim that nothing is altruistic. They claim that whatever you choose to do brings you satisfaction, pleasure, is egoistic. Thus everything according to them, i.e. to their definition, is egoistic; and nothing is altruistic.
You can win this war about words but it's meaningless, it's cheap.
In both cases: political or altruistic/egoistic, the claims about everything or nothing are a waste of otherwise meaningful words.
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