Tax the Rich?

Carnal_Flower said:

Btw, the Rs only bitch about the deficit when Ds want to "spend" gov't to help people, with, I don't know, healthcare.

Click to expand...

When have the (D)'s ever tried to help people with getting healthcare?

It's NEVER happened.

Carnal_Flower said:

They DON'T bitch about it when that money is SPENT on giving the rich what they want: more money and control. Then they don't care.

Click to expand...

Neither do the (D)'s you partisan imbecile.

Hypoxia said:

That breaks down when state and local govt's are run by corrupt cliques who fuck-over their non-friends, entrenched often by gerrymandering and disenfranchisement. Cf. federal civil rights laws.

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No, it doesn't.

It breaks down when the federal government is so huge it decides it's job is to go in and micromanage everyone. And that's all there is to it.

Hypoxia said:

How to regain a federal-state-local balance? Free and fair elections are a good start.

Click to expand...

Simple majority mob rule =/= free and fair no matter how badly you wish it did.

Hypoxia said:

That breaks down when state and local govt's are run by corrupt cliques who fuck-over their non-friends, entrenched often by gerrymandering and disenfranchisement....

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Gee. Sounds more like the Clintons (just ask Bernie or Donna Brazile.)

Hypoxia said:

Formerly vibrant "fly-over zone" economies are devastated. Locals with no life options are left with no recreations but sex and drugs.

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Funny you should bring up "'fly-over zone' economies," given the booming economy and budget surpluses in my home state of Wisconsin in the wake of decreased taxes and regulation, as opposed to the stagnation in Minnesota and fiscal meltdown in Illinois, those two being high tax and strict regulation states.

Hypoxia said:

The crisis started two decades ago. Looking at this chart (click for the Wikipedia article), heroin and other opioid overdoses surged from 2009, which likely triggered the mandates.

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Wait, nice try, but... This chart supports EJ's claim that the opioid problem started after the federal government started forcing doctors to reduce prescription opioids (dark blue line). Only the non-synthetic heroin (technically an opiate, not an opioid) spikes earlier than that. The synthetic opioids (brown line), the ones used as the primary replacement for prescription spike after the federal action, just like EJ wrote. I bet she appreciates your confirmation.

Hypoxia said:

Oh yeah, economic collapse caused by Dubya's gang forsaking regulation. Suddenly, many jobs gone, many futures blown to shit. We see the results.

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Can you be specific as to which regulations were not enforced?

One significant cause of the pre-2008 bubble, and the main reason it popped, were federal regulatory policies that allowed, and ultimately required, based on those civil rights laws you mentioned, banks to make risky home loans to people with poor credit. These were then "bundled" with other investments to make them more palatable on the secondary market. Including these "subprime" loans in these bundles ultimately so weakened the foundation of the whole market that it could not support the over-valued real estate built upon it, over-valued because this same federal meddling in the real-estate market artificially drove up demand by allowing people who really could not afford mortgages to buy homes with them anyway.

To the extent the Bush 43 administration was culpable for allowing this to happen, it did so by simply enforcing the policies established by the Clinton presidency.

Again, which regulations were not enforced?

DawnODay said:

Funny you should bring up "'fly-over zone' economies," given the booming economy and budget surpluses in my home state of Wisconsin in the wake of decreased taxes and regulation, as opposed to the stagnation in Minnesota and fiscal meltdown in Illinois, those two being high tax and strict regulation states.

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She can't help but be venomous to all the Nazis living in flyover country....horrible fucking white cis scum.

The idea that they aren't begging to get shit on by the elites on the coasts more just boggles her mind, clearly they only vote red because Republicans have cheated AND everyone in flyover country is a stupid redneck Nazi not worthy to lick the shit off of (D) shoes.

DawnODay said:

, as opposed to the stagnation in Minnesota

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If anyone bothers to read that Minnesota thread they're going to see you getting absolutely destroyed by me.

By the way how's that Foxxcon deal working out?

And if cutting taxes is always the answer how come when Reagan cut them the economy tanked but when he raised the, 11 times, it started to recover?

BotanyBoy said:

When have the (D)'s ever tried to help people with getting healthcare?

It's NEVER happened.



Neither do the (D)'s you partisan imbecile.



No, it doesn't.

It breaks down when the federal government is so huge it decides it's job is to go in and micromanage everyone. And that's all there is to it.



Simple majority mob rule =/= free and fair no matter how badly you wish it did.

Click to expand...

You mean which days end in 'y'

Well, they are, because they all voted for the fascist Trump.

BotanyBoy said:

She can't help but be venomous to all the Nazis living in flyover country....horrible fucking white cis scum.

The idea that they aren't begging to get shit on by the elites on the coasts more just boggles her mind, clearly they only vote red because Republicans have cheated AND everyone in flyover country is a stupid redneck Nazi not worthy to lick the shit off of (D) shoes.

Click to expand...

Carnal_Flower said:

Well, they are, because they all voted for the fascist Trump.

Click to expand...

No, they aren't...they WERE Obama voting democrats.

Trump is barely even Republican and he was a democratically elected president of the US of A, not a fascist, despot, dictator, Hitler or Mussolini.

The only people who actually buy into that stupid shit are the fringe loons on the left.

Sitting opposite the teahaddist who swore that Communist, Kenyan, Stalin sum' bitch Obama was going to send them to the commie Gulags after he took their gunz!!




Before that, you and yours were doing the SAME shit to Bush.




Bush was the first major E-president....there is a fucking ENDLESS pile of that shit^^

And guess what? As soon as the pendulum swings and another (D) takes office, like the SECOND the news breaks the tables will do a 180 as predictable as the tide. (R)'s will be bemoaning the dawn of the Communist regime, the (D)ick suckers will cheer the dawn of a new golden age despite the fact that at the end of the day, the bottom line is they are both getting more of the same ol' shit.

dan_c00000 said:

If anyone bothers to read that Minnesota thread they're going to see you getting absolutely destroyed by me.

By the way how's that Foxxcon deal working out?

And if cutting taxes is always the answer how come when Reagan cut them the economy tanked but when he raised the, 11 times, it started to recover?

Click to expand...

I note you made that link so that it is not in the context of the crushing replies to it, to which you offered no answer, just as you ignore posts in so many other threads when they prove your links are false, e.g., here. The Princeps is right, you really ought to fact check better before posting things.

Meanwhile, the Foxconn development is going GREAT! Thank you for asking. As a Wisconsinite I love to brag about it. It shows how great for business, and thereby creating jobs for us common folk, Wisconsin has become. For example, Michigan offered 7.3 billion dollars in incentives to Foxconn, as opposed to Wisconsin's mere 3.8 billion, but Foxconn still picked our great state! (Another Scott Walker win!)

The contract has been approved, and they are already holding employment fairs. Naturally, the first big employment boom will come among the construction companies building the plant and surrounding infrastructure. Of course, while they have already started hiring some initial employees, it will take time to reach the 13,000 Foxconn jobs predicted, but apparently not as long as I would have expected. It will be less than a decade!

You know, you really ought to get some of your news from less biased news sources. (I get most of mine from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel, NPR and WPR. They all lean a bit left, but they present all sides, so it's okay. I also read the WSJ.) If you did, you would have a better idea of what is really going on.

DawnODay said:

The Princeps is right, you really ought to fact check better before posting things.

Click to expand...

Sure let's fact check and when you get destroyed you can rage quit for months like you did last time.

1. Michigan is run by another GOP clown. Here is destroying Flint. Here he is cutting school funding. Here he is cutting taxes and failing to create a better business economy. Here he is leading the nation in jobs lost.

In other words you picked a terrible governor to make Walker seem like a genius.

2. Things you're lying about and failing to address a) Walker lied about the number of jobs. It's not 13,000 but 3,000. That 13,000 is a "maybe". Wisconsin basically forked out $3 billion dollars before the place is even built. It's going to blow such a massive hole in the state budget it's going to take 25 years to recoup the losses.

So if by "going great" you mean nothing has been done but fork over cash to a multi-national corporation than it's going swimmingly. Almost as well as Trump's wall. Foxconn did much the same in Pennsylvania, it worked out real well.

That was some pretty massive destruction there. Come back to me when they're hiring more than just interns and have an actual facility. And then come back to me when they've screwed over Wisconsin tax payers by threatening to leave the state in three years.

dan_c00000 said:

Sure let's fact check and when you get destroyed you can rage quit for months like you did last time....

2. Things you're lying about and failing to address a) Walker lied about the number of jobs. It's not 13,000 but 3,000. That 13,000 is a "maybe". Wisconsin basically forked out $3 billion dollars before the place is even built. It's going to blow such a massive hole in the state budget it's going to take 25 years to recoup the losses....

Click to expand...

Oh my, I almost feel sorry for you. You just made yourself look all the more foolish by your ignorance of the facts. (Again, I urge you to get your news from non-partisan sources like I do [see above].)

You wrote: "Walker lied about the number of jobs." The problem with your statement is that the number did not come from Walker, he simply was reporting Foxconn's own estimate. The 13,000 job figure came from Foxconn itself, and they stand by it yet today. Crushed ya!

You wrote: "Wisconsin basically forked out $3 billion dollars before the place is even built." This is completely wrong. It is the biggest lie being told by those who would rather see Walker fail, even if it costs jobs to the urban poor of southeastern Wisconsin.

The three billion dollars are tax breaks, not payments. They only happen if Foxconn is actually up, running, and employing a large number of people.


Read that closely. The 3 billion dollar credits don't come into play until Foxconn: 1. builds a huge plant (Can you imagine the boon to the economy just from building a nine billion dollar factory?); and 2. have paid nine billion dollars in payroll (Nine billion! Do you realize how many jobs it will take to pay that kind of wages and salaries? Like, maybe, 13,000?). In short, the deal is structured that Wisconsin will be receiving more in tax revenues from the Foxconn's total economic development and its necessary ancillary effects than the tax breaks it is giving Foxconn. If Foxconn hasn't produced the kind of economic development that does that, it surely will not have reached the milestones that trigger the tax breaks.

At worst, Foxconn backs out of the deal (as the Left keeps saying it will). In that case, Wisconsin pays nothing and so there is no loss. On the other hand, if the development goes forward, the incentives are structured so that Wisconsin is still in a revenue positive position even as it cuts the amount of taxes Foxconn pays. Either way, it does not have any negative impact on revenue and so cannot "blow a whole" in the budget. Those who claim that it will either do not understand how taxation and state budgeting works, or they do and they are intentionally misleading poor, uninformed readers like you. Either way: Crushed ya!

Really, please, I love a good debate with an informed opponent. You are not that. You get all your information from partisan opinion sources, not from real news sources like NPR or the WSJ. Get yourself informed and you might actually become a challenge to crush.

Democratically elected perhaps, but not by the majority of Americans who voted last November. The current electoral college system is rigged to ensure that Republican candidates (first George W, then Trump) can win elections with fewer votes than their Democratic rivals. Is there any other country in the world where you can lose the popular vote, but win the big prize?

BotanyBoy said:

No, they aren't...they WERE Obama voting democrats.

Trump is barely even Republican and he was a democratically elected president of the US of A, not a fascist, despot, dictator, Hitler or Mussolini.

The only people who actually buy into that stupid shit are the fringe loons on the left.

Sitting opposite the teahaddist who swore that Communist, Kenyan, Stalin sum' bitch Obama was going to send them to the commie Gulags after he took their gunz!!

Before that, you and yours were doing the SAME shit to Bush.

Bush was the first major E-president....there is a fucking ENDLESS pile of that shit^^

And guess what? As soon as the pendulum swings and another (D) takes office, like the SECOND the news breaks the tables will do a 180 as predictable as the tide. (R)'s will be bemoaning the dawn of the Communist regime, the (D)ick suckers will cheer the dawn of a new golden age despite the fact that at the end of the day, the bottom line is they are both getting more of the same ol' shit.

Click to expand...

dan_c00000 said:

Sure let's fact check...

Click to expand...

DawnODay said:

Oh my, I almost feel sorry for you. You just made yourself look all the more foolish by your ignorance of the facts. (Again, I urge you to get your news from non-partisan sources like I do [see above].)

You wrote: "Walker lied about the number of jobs." The problem with your statement is that the number did not come from Walker, he simply was reporting Foxconn's own estimate. The 13,000 job figure came from Foxconn itself, and they stand by it yet today. Crushed ya!

You wrote: "Wisconsin basically forked out $3 billion dollars before the place is even built." This is completely wrong. It is the biggest lie being told by those who would rather see Walker fail, even if it costs jobs to the urban poor of southeastern Wisconsin.

The three billion dollars are tax breaks, not payments. They only happen if Foxconn is actually up, running, and employing a large number of people.

The $3 billion wouldn’t be a gift.... That’s the maximum amount the state would pay Foxconn, and only if the company spends roughly $18 billion -- about $9 billion for payroll and $9 billion in capital investments.​

Read that closely. The 3 billion dollar credits don't come into play until Foxconn: 1. builds a huge plant (Can you imagine the boon to the economy just from building a nine billion dollar factory?); and 2. have paid nine billion dollars in payroll (Nine billion! Do you realize how many jobs it will take to pay that kind of wages and salaries? Like, maybe, 13,000?). In short, the deal is structured that Wisconsin will be receiving more in tax revenues from the Foxconn's total economic development and its necessary ancillary effects than the tax breaks it is giving Foxconn. If Foxconn hasn't produced the kind of economic development that does that, it surely will not have reached the milestones that trigger the tax breaks.

At worst, Foxconn backs out of the deal (as the Left keeps saying it will). In that case, Wisconsin pays nothing and so there is no loss. On the other hand, if the development goes forward, the incentives are structured so that Wisconsin is still in a revenue positive position even as it cuts the amount of taxes Foxconn pays. Either way, it does not have any negative impact on revenue and so cannot "blow a whole" in the budget. Those who claim that it will either do not understand how taxation and state budgeting works, or they do and they are intentionally misleading poor, uninformed readers like you. Either way: Crushed ya!

Really, please, I love a good debate with an informed opponent. You are not that. You get all your information from partisan opinion sources, not from real news sources like NPR or the WSJ. Get yourself informed and you might actually become a challenge to crush.

Click to expand...

The really sad part is that I think Dan actually believes he outwits you in these debates. I sometimes wonder if kindness does not dictate ignoring such people, and letting them be at peace with their misinformed delusions. In Dan's case, certainly, he does such a poor job of organizing and presenting his points, he is rather harmless. As you suggest, you should probably stop wasting your time on Dan and instead debate informed and logical opponents.

Helen46 said:

Democratically elected perhaps, but not by the majority of Americans who voted last November. The current electoral college system is rigged to ensure that Republican candidates (first George W, then Trump) can win elections with fewer votes than their Democratic rivals. Is there any other country in the world where you can lose the popular vote, but win the big prize?

Click to expand...

That's why America is the greatest country in the world, we don't sell our souls to the big city liberals, who pack themselves together for the purpose of pushing their weight around, no, we also consider those who live in the less populated regions of America that aren't subject to a tyranny by size. It's why we have both a Senate (each state equal) and House (based on population) for legislation, and we have an Electoral college for the same reason. Maybe England never will get it... seems like a shame to see and ignore a better system.

Think of this another way. Money is how we reward success. So, by saying 'tax the rich', progressives are actually saying 'punish success, and reward failure'.

Helen46 said:

Democratically elected perhaps, but not by the majority of Americans who voted last November. The current electoral college system is rigged to ensure that Republican candidates (first George W, then Trump) can win elections with fewer votes than their Democratic rivals. Is there any other country in the world where you can lose the popular vote, but win the big prize?

Click to expand...

The electoral college was incorporated into the Constitution long before there even were political parties. The idea was to prevent a few very large states from running roughshod over the rest of the country, and that's how it worked out last year.

In The UK, the PM's are elected by a plurality of voters in a single district, then voted into office by other members of their parties. At least 98% of the voters have little or nothing to say about who the Prime Minister is.

tabt said:

I agree that a doctor or lawyer should earn a lot more than someone who flips burgers.

But our neofeudalistic society is now exclussively rewarding and promoting a new class: the banksters and merchants aka businnessmen, who make up almost exclussively the ranks or billionaires and trillionaires. How many brilliant molecular biologists, mathematicians or violonists are amongst the ranks of billionaires?

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molecular biologists, mathematicians and violinists are quite free to be doctors or lawyers if pay is their goal. Just as somebody who goes to college and gets a degree in underwater basket weaving is free to pay $100,000 for their 'fine arts degree' that will never return a dime. It's no more the governments job to assign people jobs than it is to tax them for their choices.

tabt said:

I find that there's something fundamentally corrupt and/or callous about a society that grossly undertaxes billionaire and trillionaire merchants and banksters, thus promoting them to the ranks of nobility.

While taxing everybody else.

Click to expand...

In the same way that justice is blind in the eyes of the law, so too should be taxation. It is none of the governments concern who makes how much. Taxation is STRICTLY for the purpose of funding the NEEDS of the government, and there is absolutely no moral component to that. NONE. Government should never try to legislate morality, any more than it should ever try and tax for morality.

tabt said:

I agree that a doctor or lawyer should earn a lot more than someone who flips burgers. Why overtax someone who worked hard and made millions? Only Russians did that, during communism.

But that's not the argument here (taxing the middle or lower upper class so to speak - those who made millions). It's about FAIR taxation of billionaires and trillionaires.

Our neofeudalistic society is now exclussively rewarding and promoting a new class: the banksters and merchants aka businnessmen.
How many brilliant molecular biologists, mathematicians or violonists are amongst the ranks of billionaires?

Click to expand...

There are very few billionaires anyhow, and they include entertainers, professional athletes and computer scientists.

ETA: FWIW, here is a list of the richest families in the USA. https://www.billionairemailinglist.com/billionaires-list.html

Most of them became rich by making products or providing services.

tabt said:

I find that there's something fundamentally corrupt and/or callous about a society that grossly undertaxes billionaire and trillionaire merchants and banksters, thus promoting them to the ranks of nobility.

While taxing everybody else.

Click to expand...

What society are you talking about? Clearly it is not the USA. As the OP noted, in the USA:

DawnODay said:

The top 1 percent [of taxpayers] paid a greater share of individual income taxes (39.5 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.1 percent).

The share of income earned by the top 1 percent of taxpayers rose to 20.6 percent in 2014. Their share of federal individual income taxes also rose, to 39.5 percent.

[T]he top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97.3 percent of all individual income taxes while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 2.7 percent.

Click to expand...

While "taxing everyone else"? In fact, most of that bottom 50% pay no federal income tax at all.

As these numbers show, the wealthy already pay a disproportionately high amount of taxes. Let's be honest about that, okay?

tabt said:

I'm obviously talking out of my ass when it comes to economics. I don't know these things.
But what I was trying to get at:

Over the last decades we've seen all over the Globe (US, UK, Russia, even third world countries) an insane concentration of wealth in the hands of a few.

Money means power and ability to shortcut legal checks and balances.
And the consequences are obvious, from Election and Media to blatant corruption, third world style.

Click to expand...

The worst of humanity is displayed when people are allowed to try and tax others based on envy. You need look no further than the Communist manifesto, proclaiming 'from each according to his abilities, to each according to his need', and then see the death and destruction that has led to ... North Korea, China, the Stalinist confiscation of property and the starvation of Ukrainian farmers, Cuba's descent from a destination of choice to a third world shithole.... the list of best of intentions is a coffin lined superhighway.

tabt said:

You're right, and not only that abheration called Communism.
It's more tamed cousin, socialism is the system mostly based on envy and it also concentrates the power in the hands of a few (govt. and bureaucrats this time).

The Western system seemed to be the best, the way it used to be.

But it's gradually sliding into something else.
I cringe for example, that Hep C +ve people over 60 are sentenced to death because they can't afford the new treatment, given that privately owned pharmaceutical companies want to make a profit.
Can you imagine that Americans and Brits are now going to India for treatment?

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The best health care is to simply purchase a catastrophic health care plan (you know, the ones ObamaCare eliminated as insufficient), in case you have a really nasty accident on the freeway or contract a major disease, and simply pay for the healthcare you use out of pocket... forget the 'denied claims' after you've paid huge policy sums every month. Physicians who don't file insurance claims and work for cash make far more, due to the huge overhead they no longer must support with insurance and the staff it takes to support the paperwork, not to mention the government 'efficiency' and elevated blood pressure.

Still flunking civics. Let's go point for point.

coachdb18 said:

In the same way that justice is blind in the eyes of the law, so too should be taxation. It is none of the governments concern who makes how much.

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That's theology with no constitutional basis. Govt's have long done all they could to know as much as they could about their subjects. If you want privacy, stay invisible... in a cave, to avoid the ubiquitous surveillance Dubya's gang gifted us with.

Taxation is STRICTLY for the purpose of funding the NEEDS of the government, and there is absolutely no moral component to that. NONE.

Click to expand...

More theology with no constitutional basis. Congress is empowered to raise and spend money as it sees fit. As for the NEEDS of gov't, do those include massive military programs for weapons systems that don't work?

Government should never try to legislate morality, any more than it should ever try and tax for morality.

Click to expand...

That's quite some alternate reality you've got there. Theft, fraud, perjury, rape, and murder are immoral; therefore gov't should stay neutral, right?

Let's try this: Early biblical translators rendered from Hebrew as 'witch' words for only jugglers, herb doctors, gamblers etc. One prominent biblical injunction should read "Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live." By a moral code, those dumping toxic wastes should be executed. If gov't doesn't enforce that code, the poisoner is rewarded (they made or saved money by killing people).

DawnODay said:

At worst, Foxconn backs out of the deal

Click to expand...

You're getting owned massively and it's not even hard anymore. Your wall of text response doesn't make any sense. Consider the following:

What has Wisconsin already spent to lure Foxconn to the state? Did Foxconn lobby Wisconsin and Walker illegally?

Foxconn has promises this before not only in PA (which you keep ignoring because you're getting ruined by it) but in Vietnam, Brazil, India, and Indonesia.

What the Politifact article fails to mention is that a Taiwanese billionaire has come in to play fairy god mother. Do you really trust that guy to make good on something Wisconsin got dupped into? If so you're a bigger moron than I thought you were.

Finally, look at the actual minimum number of jobs Foxconn has to actually provide in order to avoid clawbacks. They're hilarious low. They only have to provide 1,300 jobs in the next three years and Wisconsin will be on the hook.

You and you're alt just got fucking destroyed. Let's close this thread because you've gotten wrecked on taxes and Walker's bullshit. You should really call it a day. As always,

Hypoxia said:

Still flunking civics. Let's go point for point.

That's theology with no constitutional basis. Govt's have long done all they could to know as much as they could about their subjects. If you want privacy, stay invisible... in a cave, to avoid the ubiquitous surveillance Dubya's gang gifted us with.

More theology with no constitutional basis.

Click to expand...

Said the English flunkie......

Definition of theology

plural theologies
1 :the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially :the study of God and of God's relation to the world
2 a :a theological theory or system Thomist theology a theology of atonement
b :a distinctive body of theological opinion Catholic theology
3 :a usually 4-year course of specialized religious training in a Roman Catholic major seminary

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theology


And I'm pretty sure it was Obama who took the chance to kill the PATRIOT act (the one you and the other lefties cried HITLER!! over..) and not only re-upped it but expanded it so he could go drone strike US citizens without due process. Not Bush.

Not that any of that would bother you, because it's only bad when (R)'s do it.

Your partisan (D)iaper needs changing grandma.....best of luck with that.

DawnODay said:

Oh my, I almost feel sorry for you. You just made yourself look all the more foolish by your ignorance of the facts. (Again, I urge you to get your news from non-partisan sources like I do [see above].)

You wrote: "Walker lied about the number of jobs." The problem with your statement is that the number did not come from Walker, he simply was reporting Foxconn's own estimate. The 13,000 job figure came from Foxconn itself, and they stand by it yet today. Crushed ya!

You wrote: "Wisconsin basically forked out $3 billion dollars before the place is even built." This is completely wrong. It is the biggest lie being told by those who would rather see Walker fail, even if it costs jobs to the urban poor of southeastern Wisconsin.

The three billion dollars are tax breaks, not payments. They only happen if Foxconn is actually up, running, and employing a large number of people.

The $3 billion wouldn’t be a gift.... That’s the maximum amount the state would pay Foxconn, and only if the company spends roughly $18 billion -- about $9 billion for payroll and $9 billion in capital investments.​

Read that closely. The 3 billion dollar credits don't come into play until Foxconn: 1. builds a huge plant (Can you imagine the boon to the economy just from building a nine billion dollar factory?); and 2. have paid nine billion dollars in payroll (Nine billion! Do you realize how many jobs it will take to pay that kind of wages and salaries? Like, maybe, 13,000?). In short, the deal is structured that Wisconsin will be receiving more in tax revenues from the Foxconn's total economic development and its necessary ancillary effects than the tax breaks it is giving Foxconn. If Foxconn hasn't produced the kind of economic development that does that, it surely will not have reached the milestones that trigger the tax breaks.

At worst, Foxconn backs out of the deal (as the Left keeps saying it will). In that case, Wisconsin pays nothing and so there is no loss. On the other hand, if the development goes forward, the incentives are structured so that Wisconsin is still in a revenue positive position even as it cuts the amount of taxes Foxconn pays. Either way, it does not have any negative impact on revenue and so cannot "blow a whole" in the budget. Those who claim that it will either do not understand how taxation and state budgeting works, or they do and they are intentionally misleading poor, uninformed readers like you. Either way: Crushed ya!

Really, please, I love a good debate with an informed opponent. You are not that. You get all your information from partisan opinion sources, not from real news sources like NPR or the WSJ. Get yourself informed and you might actually become a challenge to crush.

Click to expand...

I put up the post to which you seem to think you replied, because none of the points in the supposed reply actually contradicts, or even undermines, what I wrote in the first place.

dan_c00000 said:

....

What has Wisconsin already spent to lure Foxconn to the state? Did Foxconn lobby Wisconsin and Walker illegally?

Click to expand...

You ask cryptically: "What has Wisconsin already spent to lure Foxconn to the state?" I answer factually: Nothing (except maybe a bit for donuts and such at a few press conferences).

Even if this article from August had any basis in fact (which seems unlikely as no one has pressed for any investigation or prosecution), what does it have to do with anything that "Wisconsin already spent to lure Foxconn to the state"? (Which is essentially nothing, so far.) The article is about lobbying efforts by Foxconn and other contractors, so it would be they, and not the state, that did any spending. (It seems you do not understand what lobbying is or how it works.) The article says nothing about Wisconsin spending anything. Therefore, it does not support your false implication that Wisconsin has already given money to Foxconn (which it hasn't), and thus is irrelevant to these issues.

dan_c00000 said:

Foxconn has promises this before not only in PA (which you keep ignoring because you're getting ruined by it) but in Vietnam, Brazil, India, and Indonesia.

What the Politifact article fails to mention is that a Taiwanese billionaire has come in to play fairy god mother. Do you really trust that guy to make good on something Wisconsin got dupped into? If so you're a bigger moron than I thought you were.

Click to expand...

Again, even if all this is true, so what? As I point out above, if Foxconn backs out, then Wisconsin is not on the hook for anything. In that case, Wisconsin does not pay one cent of the incentives.

You seem to think you address that point with this:

dan_c00000 said:

Finally, look at the actual minimum number of jobs Foxconn has to actually provide in order to avoid clawbacks. They're hilarious low. They only have to provide 1,300 jobs in the next three years and Wisconsin will be on the hook.

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Here you have simply misread the article. If you read the text, then you might better understand the graph. To receive and retain the $1.5 billion connected to job creation, they actually have to have reached 6,500 jobs by 2024, and maintain that level through 2032.

Are you thinking they get the whole $1.5 billion the day they open their doors? It's spread out across 15 years. Of course they don't have to hit the full amount of jobs in the first year. That would be unrealistic. As you point out, for the first six years of the contract, the numbers are lower. But if they have not hit 6,500 by year seven, and do not maintain that for the rest of the contract, then not only do they receive no more tax credits, they have to pay back the earlier ones they did receive.

Again, this is all structured this way so that Wisconsin is still in a revenue positive position even as it cuts the amount of taxes Foxconn pays. At no point will the amount of tax credits available to Foxconn exceed the revenue necessarily generated by it meeting the quotas that qualify it for those credits. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume, rather than intentionally misrepresenting these articles, you just are not that familiar with finance.

Let's put it in simple terms. One of three things can happen: 1) Foxconn backs out of the deal, in which case Wisconsin is not on the hook for any of the incentives; 2) Foxconn develops the $10 billion factory, but does not meet the employment quotas, in which case Wisconsin will have received more in revenues from the economic activities of building the factory than the $1.65 billion capital investment credit it will pay Foxconn over time, and it will owe nothing for the employment incentives; 3) Foxconn develops the $10 billion factory, and does meet the employment quotas, in which case Wisconsin will have received more in revenues from the economic activities of building the factory than the $1.65 billion capital investment credit it will pay Foxconn over time, and will have received more in revenues from the economic activities in the staffing of the factory than the $1.5 billion employment incentives it will pay Foxconn over time. In none of these scenarios is there any negative revenue impact to Wisconsin.

dan_c00000 said:

You and you're alt just got fucking destroyed. Let's close this thread because you've gotten wrecked on taxes and Walker's bullshit.

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I'm not sure to what all this refers. Walker has lowered taxes every year he has been governor and yet always ended up with a surplus. He hasn't wrecked us at all. My Alt-Right thread has nothing to do with Wisconsin and is completely separate from any of this. It often seems you are just throwing everything you can think of against the wall to see what will stick. In this case, nothing you wrote or cited actually contradicted my original points. I'm not sure why, then, we should end the thread, unless it's because you conceed you have no actual reply to the facts about the finances of the Foxconn deal as explained above.

Keep plugging away Dawn the left is genetically predisposed to failure when it comes to applied economics. They're policy approach is always the use of force to achieve goals instead of reason and the tried and true. When they come up against failure the solution is always more force.

Utopian socialism is bound to collide with individual human action, that is the need for each man to apply his own reason to make economic calculations best suited to satisfy his individual ends. The one size fits all calculations of socialism sacrifices individual human action on the alter of the collective. It locks the individual into a universal conformity and intellectual regimentation that destroys the personal initiative and creativity so vital to growth and prosperity.

Free markets will always prevail against the regurgitated modern renditions of fossil Marxism, because they always turn out to be the same failed recipes for force, force against the very nature of man and the tried and true of his history.