‘The Missing Dragon.’ I Want Feedback. Gimme!

Hey there! I’m hoping for some critiquing on my new story. It’s called ‘The Missing Dragon’ and it’s about a teenager that falls into another world and finds lots of sexy thrills therein. It’s plonked in sci-fi and fantasy and has elements of Group Sex, NonHuman, First Time and a little twist of girl-girl in there for flavour. It’s also eight lit pages long so rest assured I’ll love you forever for taking the time to read and critique it.

I’m already getting some very nice comments and it’s hitting a rating that’s making me go all warm and fuzzy inside. So I’m posting up here in the hope of a little more of an in depth response particularly in reaction to my characters and my storytelling. I’m also looking for things to improve upon as I move forward with the tale. So let me know what you liked and what you didn’t!

http://www.literotica.com/s/the-missing-dragon

Thar she blows.

If you reply then thanks very much in advance.

I just read the story and actually made this forum account just to find and post in this thread. I loved it and I really hope that you make this into a series, just one question:

When can we expect the next installment in the series?

Cheers!

Hey! Thanks for replying to my lonely forgotten little post here.

Since you apparently made an account just for me then here’s your reply. I’m currently 28 Word pages (3-4 Lit Pages) into the second instalment. That’s roughly a third of the way through the story as it stands in my head. I totally wasn’t expecting the incredibly nice response I got from the first one so the desire for more so soon kinda caught me off guard. I’ve got lots for Gregory, Algra and Janette to get up to though, so hopefully it won’t be too long before the next part is out. Then again if you’ve followed my story ‘Aphrodisia’ at all then you know my updates can be weekly to yearly depending on various things. If all goes well I think it should be a couple of months before it’s ready but please don’t hold me to that. If I can be relied upon for one thing it’s my unreliability ;o)

Just FYI though, I’m not sure if the next part will be called ‘The Missing Dragon Ch. 2’ It might be something different due to a distinct lack of missing dragons in the story. So keep an eye on my author page once in a while if you want to check for updates.

Part of the reason for the delay with it is that I’m writing a story for the Halloween contest…that I REALLY hope will be ready in time for the Halloween contest. If it’s not I’ll have to wait a whole year to enter the damn thing!

So thanks for reading my stuff! It means a lot that you took the time to say so and I hope I’ll have the next part out for you sooner rather than later.

Haha I don't mind the wait, it's just good to hear that you do plan on making it into a series. The missing dragon was the first story of yours that I've read and right now i'm reading the defiled temple series. Keep up the good work!

History of Arolius(?)

I suspect that I'm the one who sent you that history of Arolius that you mentioned on your bio page. If you're talking about one where you were asked if you were basing the central empire off of Medieval Germany, or Ancient Rome, than I'm almost certain of it. Obviously, as you might have guessed, I'm something of a storyteller myself (although I don't really do erotic stories--can't seem to stay focused long enough to get them finished), and, just as importantly, I'm something of an amateur historian, who likes to make the stories I write match up with something out of the human experience. Since humanity has experienced everything from having an entire empire officially ruled by a secret conspiracy (Venice, from 1310 until almost 1790), to empires failing due to invasions from barbarian hordes, to elf-like cultures (most Native American tribes) to...well, you name it, and I can probably find an analogue somewhere. The only thing that's really missing from human history is some kind of equivalent to dragons...and even then, modern technology is slowly filling in the gap.

Also, since I am not able to do work in a useful for manner for about four hours before I can go to sleep, I have too much time on my hands.

I like your stories, because you present a really fascinating story. You don't give enough details to shut yourself out when you start the story, and you're not sparse enough that we don't know anything about your world, either, which is a nice, happy medium for most fantasy stories. This is especially true of stories where you are making up the world out of whole cloth, probably because you don't start out with a set idea of the world's conditions.

So. Without (much) further ado...here's more thoughts. You may have heard these before. You may have heard thoughts that contradict this. I'd love to find out, either way, because at this point, I don't really recall which thoughts got sent, and which did not.


I will suggest that, from the way you've described the orcs fighting, they fight as, essentially, barbarians. I'd put them at being roughly around the ancient Germanic tribes, probably around 50-100 BC, in terms of social organization, although, being honest, the fact that they have yet to discover agriculture probably limits them a great deal in terms of what they can do. Socially, tribes at that stage of development tend to be somewhat beyond the control of the tribe's chief(s), as the tribe has to spread out over a large area to get enough food to feed itself without depleting the local area. Your orcs don't seem to be hunter-gatherers--quite--but they appear to be awfully close. Part of this is likely because they live in something very much like a jungle...but part of it is probably because that's the way they lived their lives before the demons came, and most cultures tend to fossilize when put under that kind of pressure. Ulla Strongblood is a case in point--she is as more berserker than warrior, and the fact that her pack leader has only limited methods to reign her in indicates that the tribe's small unit discipline is based more on the pack's acceptance of Ulf as a leader than upon anything else. Generally, I would imagine that most of the packs have either the biggest and the strongest member of the pack, or the meanest member as their leader. Generally, the packs with the big, strong leaders are likely to be more effective in their first battle...but the meaner leaders will likely bring more of their pack home alive, because they don't win by shock tactics, they win by fighting dirty, and by adapting to their circumstances. Ulf is the exception, not the rule--he's big and strong, yes, and quite adept, but neither of those is what makes him the leader, nor are they what make his pack willing to follow even if he ends up in a more protected position.
The conundrum here is that the orcs seem to have developed...not a formalized martial art, but formal tactics. In other words, it does not seem to be just screaming, and running at the enemy. That would seem to indicate something along the lines of the Mongols, or other steppe nomads, whose hunting and herding tactics were generally translated quite efficiently into combat...except that the orcs appear to do neither of those things. In short, I don't know what the orcs organize themselves around, and I am highly curious, since that will be the factor that dominates their entire society. Both models, and many others, fit with the orcs' use of slaves for artisans and specialty roles...but the fact that Toren has continued as a slave, and not been inducted into the tribe, would seem to argue for a more nomadic model. On the other hand, those semi-permanent camps argue against it. So...an interesting conundrum. Which model they use--and from what time period--will do a great deal to determine how well they can resist if and when the southern kingdom decides to go for broke and try to enslave them. If it's one of the more primitive societies, then they're going to be toast--the southern kingdom will be able to expend the manpower, the gold, and the knowledge capital to destroy them piecemeal. If they are more like the Mongols...well. Expect the exact opposite result, if that is the case.

Finally, I can answer! Woop!

Hi there conspiracyraven! I’m so glad you pinged me on here, because you put in a hell of a lot of work to only get the sound of crickets in return. So, here’s some background information on the orcs of Arolius in case you’re interested. It might have some mild spoilers in there for anyone who is interested in reading my story in future, but nothing hugely spoilerish.

The orc encampment in the Embervine Forest isn’t actually the real home of the orcs, it’s just an outpost. They have a fortress city of stone and metal deep inside the Southern Mountains where most of their people live (along with all of their children before they reach proving age). Orcs are partially based on classical European tribes like the celts, the gauls and the Germanic peoples. Nicely spotted. I’d say that they also have some traits of Spartans in their martial lifestyle, and even a pinch of bushido in there too.

They have discovered agriculture, but they just don’t need it. One of the main reasons the Embervine Encampment is used is for the collection of food during summer. The orcs have a very literal connection to Embervine and the spirit of the land keeps them plentifully supplied and protected. In exchange, the orcs protect the forest from human incursions and, more importantly, human axes. They usually top up this food supply with fish from the coast, and with a yearly deal for grain from the human empire. Though the latter of those supplements certainly helps, they aren’t reliant on humans for their food supply.

Orc society is also a lot more stable than you might think. Although the average human probably wouldn’t do too well in it. Orcs are a lot bigger, stronger and tougher than humans. They can also heal much faster, even if they’re not Wolverine. That last trait makes fighting a good deal less lethal than it is to humans. A duel for dominance between two orcs might look absolutely horrifying, but it’s rare for either party to be truly hurt in these instances. Combine this with the fact that orcs place a high value on honour, and things can become much less brutal than they first appear. An orc fighting dirty (e.g. delivering a blow to a downed opponent) has his reputation tarnished. That can cost him far more in their society than what the victory might get him. The rules are slightly different when they’re at war, of course. Also, because most orcs are “slaves” in one way or another then brutality to those of lower station can be met with extremely negative consequences. A master might try to beat a slave, but those of similar station to him will probably pull him aside and kick his tusks in so that their masters don’t get any ideas.

Moving on to the meanest getting to the top, that can certainly sometimes be the case but not as often as you’d think. The packs on the proving grounds are about finding a way to work as a team in battle. They’re not considered adults until they’ve passed their proving, and only then can they issue formal challenges. However, informal challenges are quite common in deciding who gets to be a pack leader. If a big, mean and nasty orc wanted to lead a pack by force alone, then he’d be getting challenged every day. Also, he wouldn’t be able to take beating his pack too far or they wouldn’t be able to fight as well. Since they also can’t properly challenge each other, those beneath him have absolutely no obligation to stick around if he’s being a complete dick. This, combined with orc society’s reverence of honour in battle, usually means that bullies don’t get very far by force alone. Although they do sometimes band together and then you get the Berserkers. ^_^

Orcs haven’t developed a formal style of martial art, but their constant sparring and fighting with each other renders that point slightly moot. Gregory has studied martial arts, but it hardly helps him at all when he’s fighting orcs due to their practical experience. In battle, the initial charge would usually involve orcs screaming and barrelling shoulder-first into the enemy. Remember that the average height for a male orc is about 7ft tall and most of them are built like The Terminator. An orc armoured infantry charge usually has a closer battlefield parallel to a medieval heavy cavalry charge. Once the lines meet, however, the orcs often switch to pack tactics with each pack owning a certain space on the line. This makes them exceptionally effective against standard infantry formations, as their charge breaks it up and then their teamwork ideally tears apart the stunned enemy soldiers as they try to re-form.

Now to the drawbacks, and for this I must mention the fall of the orcs in the northern mountains. Originally, the northern mountains were home to a second kingdom of orcs on friendly terms with the south. Unfortunately, when the demon horde broke out into the world these orcs were corrupted and turned into the black orcs. Black orcs are a lot more akin to Tolkien’s version, and are a wretched and corrupted race used as half-mad shock troops by their demonic overlords. Thankfully, their corruption weakened them into much smaller beings with sickly pale skin the colour of curdled milk. (They’re called black orcs because they’re usually covered in black soot or ash from the corrupted lands they inhabit.) Unfortunately, the reason for this was their rampant rate of reproduction.

Also, let’s take a moment here to mention the war with humans. Humans, being the complete assholes that we are ( ) once intermingled with orc society before trying to actively enslave them. Oh yes, the bad kind of slaves. This led to a war between three of the human kingdoms at the time, and it did not do the orc population any favours. Because of this, orcs generally distrust humans, and they have always been forbidden from becoming true members of orc culture. Hence why Torren has never been formally recognised and why none of the humans in the camp are anything other than servants at the lowest rung of society with virtually no power.

Relations changed a little for the better when the first human emperor conquered all the five human kingdoms and effectively made peace with the orcs. It laid the foundations for humans and southern orcs to form a troubled alliance when the demons broke into Arolius. Orcs might not trust humans, but they hate their dishonoured fallen kin and loathe the creatures that defiled them.

Which brings us to the major problems facing orc society when TMD starts. First off, the human empire isn’t what it was when their peace treaty was signed. Many of the high lords see the current aging emperor and the fat palace guards as an opportunity. The high lord of Uldrin isn’t all that sane, and his paranoia and loathing for the orcs isn’t doing race relations any favours. So he’s firing up his people to shun or even harm any orcs seen in his lands. Making this worse is that Uldrin is the kingdom with the largest border to the Embervine Forest, and it’s making travel into and out of the Empire very difficult for the orcs.

They still have quite a few war packs in the north, however. There, they fight alongside mostly human conscripts against the demon armies. The fact that neither race much likes the other isn’t helping the war effort. The orcs up there are also finding their tactics ineffective as the oncoming swarm of enemies don’t fight in any real formation, and they tend to get surrounded easily. The orcish attitude of earning as much glory and honour as possible isn’t helping there either, as most war packs tend to push forward deeper into the most dire circumstances. Their human support troops can’t keep up with them, and are often malnourished and ill-equipped despite having the numbers the orcs need.

One thing is certainly true, if Uldrin prevails and the orcs are forced to withdraw from the north entirely then the humans are going to be in a deeply desperate situation without their help.

Anyhoo, I hope this fills in some of the blanks for you! Thanks again for all the interest and thought you’re clearly putting into my story. Hope to have the next chapter out before the end of time!

Blanks filled in

It does. It fills in quite a few blanks, and they paint...probably a much bleaker picture than you would think.


First off, as to my question regarding whether you are taking inspiration from the late Roman Empire or the Holy Roman Empire: you are taking inspiration from the late Western Roman Empire, as is proved by the elite, ultra-privileged Palace Guard (think Praetorians), and by the fact that most of the armies facing the northern orcs are made up of conscripts instead of paid professionals. Given that you originally stated (in part 2, near the bottom of Literotica page 2) that the orcs Greg is with are the ones who fled rather than accept the "unimaginable strength" from the demons, I had assumed that the orcs Greg met were much like the Germanic tribes who invaded the WRE near the end of its existence--desperate to get away, and ready to fight like hell to preserve their new home. My assumption was that they were like the Visigoths, or the Franks, both of which invaded the West during the fifth century AD. Both groups were eventually promoted from invaders to "favored allies" as the Romans' need for manpower grew increasingly desperate, but both eventually established their own kingdoms at the expense of the Romans, who collapsed soon thereafter. If this is indeed the case, than the humans are basically holding on by their fingernails, and are only being held together by the political brilliance of one or possibly two generals who have enough of the army behind them to maintain control over the Empire's central portion. Since, at the time when the Franks and the Visigoths entered what would become France, the Romans were fielding mostly conscript infantry with elite cavalry providing most of their armies' punch, this would seem to be the closest historical analogue to situation you describe. Otherwise, there would be absolutely zero reason for the orcs to help the humans fight off the Black Orcs--they would have no contact with the Black Orcs, and thus, no idea just how much trouble the Empire would be in. Thus, as far as they would know, the Empire would be either about to dissolve into civil war, or would be quietly backing the human kingdom giving them the most trouble. Either would be a problem, but the orcs know the jungle, so they probably would not consider it to be much of a problem. The only reason the orcs would be fighting alongside the Emperor, particularly if the Empire (or some of its constituent kingdoms) had effectively split the orcs, would be if the orcs were either somewhat assimilated into the Empire, and thus counted themselves as its citizens, or if the orcs had had personal experience with the threat posed by the Black Orcs...in which case, they would, once they finished blasting through the Empire, offer their services to help fight the Black Orcs...just like the Germanic tribes who invaded the Western Roman Empire ended up doing.

My suggestion for dealing with this discrepancy would be to maintain the orcs in two kingdoms, but make the two groups of orcs originate from two originally adjacent kingdoms--one in the northern mountains, and the second in the northernmost frozen swamps, in part of what is now the northeastern kingdom (this would actually fit better with your description of the orcs than what you have presented). Their kingdom would have been partially hill country, but also would have had large coastal areas, resulting in a home that was wet, swampy, and generally miserable, but still warmer than the mountain areas (a bit warmer, anyway). This would have been a kingdom where agriculture was possible, but incredibly difficult, and most of the orcs' ability to feed themselves would have come primarily from hunting, fishing, and living in tune with nature--exactly as you have described them living in the jungles to the south. In all probability, the mountain kingdom would have been by far the more aggressive and technologically advanced of the two, seeing as the coastal orcs would have been largely protected by living in a swamp that, when it was not frozen completely solid, was impassible to any who did not understand how to travel safely within its depths. Despite this, the mountain orcs would have gained a reputation for pushing at everybody's borders, including their coastal fellow orcs, and just generally being a pain in the ass to their neighbors, even before the pact was made.
As to the pact...well, it would have been made for one of two reasons, both of them having a potential bearing on the story, and its title. The first possibility would be that the mountain orcs were being heavily pressured by something to their north, potentially by the titular dragon, or by something else--trolls, maybe. The pressure would have gotten sufficiently intense that the orcs of the mountains would have been threatened with being pushed out of their traditional homelands--hence their aggression against their neighbors--and would be willing to take any offer, no matter its origin, that would give them the strength to vanquish their attackers. The feeling would likely have been that, if the gods of good were so eager for the orcs to follow their tenants, and not cavort with demonkind, than they should have taken more steps to help the mountain orcs hold on to their kingdom. At this point, they would have felt that the choice would be between living as the demons' slaves, or extermination. That usually is not a tough choice for a person to make.
This would have led to the majority of the mountain orcs willingly sacrificing their souls for power, with a small ultra-religious minority fleeing the mountains to the eastern orcs, bringing warning of what the black orcs had done and become, and eventually providing the coastal orcs with a solid core of government and technology that they had not previously had access to--hence the superior metalworking (which otherwise would present a very bizarre departure from what such groups normally had access to). These orcs would have been significantly more technologically and socially advanced than their coastal cousins, who would not have been facing the same pressures to learn, adapt, and evolve, and so would have formed something much closer to a loose confederation than a true kingdom. When the black orcs came after these refugees, then, the orcs of the coast would have been unable to stop them. It is likely that a significant percentage of the coastal orcs perished at the hands of the now-hellishly empowered black orcs, who would not have accepted the simple surrender of any black orcs in a tribe's territory, but would have demanded the tribe's total subjugation and/or extermination as a price for harboring such "criminals". In all probability, it would only be thanks to the efforts of the surviving refugees that the remaining coastal orcs were able to organize sufficiently evacuate. Whether they fled overland, or by sea, I leave up to you, although fleeing overland would make more sense, as it would involve punching through the northeastern kingdom, and that would likely have been the only thing that could have kept the black orcs from following (unless their demonic masters had a strong aversion to saltwater, anyway). Regardless, the northeastern kingdom, which I based off of the pagan Lithuanians (a group so terrifyingly effective in battle that they scared the Vikings--as in, the Vikings would not fight in the eastern reaches of the Baltic sea without heavy support from the Germans), would have been able to stop even super-powered black orcs, although the devastation and the loss of life would have been incredible. This would have been enough to force the Empire to mobilize, whether it wanted to or not, and would explain a number of other factors.

Alternatively, the black orcs might have become damned because a particularly young/insane king decided that he was going to rule the world, and made a pact with the demons to make sure he could overcome the Empire's superior (at the time) military. In this scenario, the orcs of the mountains would have been unwillingly damned--betrayed by the one they trusted to lead them--and may be able to be saved...provided that enough power is available to drive the demons' influence out. It is entirely possible that this power can only be found within/controlled by the legendary dragons...but nobody has seen a dragon in thousands of years. Either way, the next steps would have played out much the same as above, with the exception that it is unlikely that the Empire would have been caught totally unaware, and would have already made contact with the coastal orcs, hoping to form an alliance. Which you choose depends entirely upon how much the Empire of that time was on the ball, alert, and ready to fight against demonic super-orcs.
Either way, the mountain orcs would have been bigger, stronger, and better conditioned than the coastal orcs. Why this should be so, I could not tell you, but historically, animals and people from colder, more mountainous regions have always been bigger etc than people from even marginally more hospitable regions. In both cases, the coastal orcs would have had a tight connection with nature--that is common among peoples who live in more heavily forested regions--and a massively decentralized "government." In both cases, they would have agriculture, but not much--swamps are notoriously hard to plant, let alone till--and in both cases, it might be possible that there could be pockets of normal mountain orcs trapped on the far side of the mountains.

As for the orcs themselves....
What you have described bears absolutely no resemblence (that I can find) to the ancient Spartans, for the simple reason that the orcs aren't really organized enough to meet Spartiate standards. There's too much luxury among the orcs for them to be true Spartans. Ah, well.
That said...most of what you have given here reinforces many of my earlier assumptions. The orcs are actually a very good match for many of the Germanic tribes, especially were they to be transplanted to a tropical rain forest/jungle. The primary deviation from this model is the widespread presence of quality metalworking knowledge, which would have come from the Celtic influence. But the orcs themselves seem a lot more Germanic than anything else, down to and including their distrust for the more "civilized" races (elves, humans, and others). This would have been an inevitable outgrowth of their development, as the more socially and governmentally advanced humans would, essentially, have been operating in a power vacuum--the orcs would not have been able to stop the humans from acting as the humans willed, particularly when the orcs were in effect refugees struggling to find/create a new home for themselves. This is a pattern that is repeated over and over again in human history, and was frequently repeated by the Romans, particularly in the early Imperial and late Republican eras, when the Germanic tribes really couldn't do much to prevent the Romans from doing whatever the hell the Romans wanted. This even extends to the orc view of slavery, as it sounds fairly close to the underlying theory of feudal serfdom, especially as practiced by the Franks--with the sole exception that, in feudalism, there were a number of independent peasants, who answered only to the King (and sometimes, not even to him), and never to any of the nobles. Apparently, these peasants (who existed in a class quite distinct from serfs, who were in effect slaves to the local lord) were significantly badass, as even the local knights did not fuck with them. And, for the record, the early Germanic tribes were also semi-nomadic--that is, they had cities or large settlements, but most groups journeyed to those cities for part of the year, and then back to outposts to gather/grow food for the rest of the year. And, famously, they also allowed their women to fight, and those women were reputed to be fabulously good at it--perhaps not quite to the extent that Algra is, but the Germanic shieldmaidens were widely respected combatants, and ones that all warriors took very seriously indeed.
Not that there is any way for Greg to know this, but...yeah. Think Vikings/barbarians for your culture, and you'll probably end up with a very strong culture that is pretty close to where you want it to be. Up to and including the trade practices, and how the other warriors regard merchants like Boluc.

Orcs in combat...hmm. What you've portrayed and described actually, again, is very consistent with how the Germans fought, particularly after the Germans got access to large quantities of metal (originally, they had very little access to iron or bronze, and so favored spears over other weapons). This will, eventually, lead you to the huscarls--big, heavily armored men, armed with massive two-handed axes, who were personally beholden to and led by a powerful chieftain. Sound familiar? It should--it's so close to how the orcs fight that I had assumed you transplanted it just about completely. Up to and including their training methods, and their position in their peoples' culture. The Germanic tribes were known for being big, burly, scary as hell, and highly disciplined, but they were still barbarians, and they rarely bothered to stop advancing until their foe started seriously fighting. Huscarls, when combined with a good shieldwall, could easily withstand the charge of heavily armored knights--in point of fact, every time the two came into conflict, it took a miracle for the knights to survive, let alone win. This, combined with the Empire's heavy cavalry, would give the Empire the ability to survive most external threats, although the decline in quality of its infantry would greatly limited its ability to fight an offensive war. Again, I am assuming heavy cavalry (and fairly good heavy cavalry, too) because that is how the Romans held on at the end--they had lots of poor-quality conscript infantry, and lots of mercenary heavy cavalry. The infantry pinned the enemy in place, and then the heavy cavalry destroyed them, preferably from behind. Germanic allied contingents, by this point, possessed significantly better infantry than the Romans did, and thus were rarely fielded as part of a unified force. When the two WERE fielded in an integrated manner, they tended to get exactly the results you have described--the Germanic tribesmen punched through the enemy fairly quickly, owing to superior discipline and planning, while the Roman conscript infantry struggled even to follow along in the wake of the Germanic warriors...eventually ending with the Germans getting cut off and (frequently) slaughtered. Were it not for the Romans' superior cavalry, most of which came from other barbarian tribes, the Germans likely would have destroyed them when they first invaded. As it was, they accepted the position of "subject" nations and official allies of the Empire. Take out that bit about the shieldwall, and you've got something very close to how you have described the war up north, by the mountains.

The mountain orcs, even with the demonic corruption, are likely still bigger and stronger than the orcs available to the Empire, but the simple fact that they serve demons, who are notoriously untrustworthy, even to each other, would make the mountain orcs a largely undisciplined rabble, not a true army. Again, this would make the highly vulnerable to well-trained enemy infantry, even if they enjoyed a size advantage (the Romans were notoriously small, but this never stopped them beating the snot out of absolutely everybody they fought for about a thousand years). Their increased reproductive rates, combined with the unexpected warming of the northern mountains, would likely have resulted in their having rapidly increasing food supplies and, thus, numbers...which the demons would cheerfully use to attempt to conquer the Empire. The fact that the demons could have conquered the Empire decades or even centuries ago, if they'd bothered to have their orc servants fight in a disciplined manner would...well, what do demons care about time? Besides, let's face it--they're winning. And, unless things change, the Empire is going to get basically wiped out pretty soon (probably when the current Emperor dies/is assassinated), leaving the orcs basically by themselves to fight their northern kin. Which...let's face it. Why would they want to save the kingdom that keeps wanting to enslave them? Particularly when they can basically just disappear back into their new jungle home, and dare the mountain orcs to find them, let alone attack them.

Hey, it worked for the Balts.

Actually, the filled in blanks paint exactly the picture I want. It’s kind of a perk of being the world’s author. It does what I tell it to.

I am taking influence from the fall of the Western Roman Empire in the current state of the human Empire on Arolius. I’m also taking influence from Medieval society too in that each of the five human realms are governed by a high lord, and they have lords and ladies beneath them with their own domains subject to them. The five realms are centred around the central realm that’s home to the Imperial City, and is governed directly by the Emperor. Though in practice he usually palms off the running of his own province to his lords and members of his court.

The palace guard were originally something along the lines of the Praetorian Guard, but those days are long past them. Now they’re usually filled out with sons of noblemen who don’t want their children getting anywhere near the northern war. Most of them haven’t seen a real battle, and after the initial training they’re usually left to their own devices and this usually leads to them getting overweight or indulging in various other vices.

That’s not to say that the Emperor is completely powerless. By law, the high lords are only allowed a personal guard of up to 500 men. The Emperor has his own band of knights known as the First Legion, who are usually kept at least 1000 strong. These guys are trained fighters, and they are all battle hardened from the northern war. More so, all knights that want any recognition have to pledge fealty to the Emperor. Most of these knights-for-hire usually go find work in the northern war where they supplement the conscripts, but when they want to spend their money they’re encouraged to hang around the imperial city. There they have opportunities for promotion, and licensed tournaments where they can make a name for themselves throughout the entire realm. This gives the Imperial City a much larger contingent of men that can be called up to supplement the First Legion at a moments notice. Any high lord who starts getting ideas about militarisation usually gets stomped on hard before they can mobilize.

Unfortunately this doesn’t stop them plotting and scheming to grab at power in other ways.

Getting back to the orcs then. You’re kind of running away with yourself a bit here. Some of that might be my fault in making things unclear in the text, or doing a bit of retconning in terms of the history. Before the demons broke through from the dark realms into Arolius, the orcs were split into two main tribes that inhabited the mountains to the north and the south. These tribes were on friendly terms with each other and fought together in their war with the humans. During that war, humans utilised hit and run cavalry tactics to great effect. Though they didn’t use bows so much as javelins and light infantry in front of their battle lines to prevent orcs from being able to deliver their devastating charge. These tactics became less effective the more deeply they got into Embervine and the mountainous terrain of the north. They had a large advantage in numbers too, which prevented the orcs from getting too far and kept the war at a general stalemate.

Then along came a human called Alorik the Mighty who went out from what would be the imperial realm and conquered the other five human realms to become Emperor. He made peace with the orcs since he’d had quite enough fighting and he had no real problem with them.

This is the time where the demons showed up for the first time. At first, they weren’t much of a threat, and they often chose to blend in or present themselves as things that weren’t pure evil. Slowly, they gained the trust of most of the northern orcs, and then started fanning their dislike of humans into outright hatred. That paranoia soon turned to madness, and the demons grew stronger by the day.

I can’t really say why demons showed up on Arolius and why they got stronger over time without revealing some big spoilers. Other than that magic is very real in this world, and it’s power has been fading for a long time.

Anyhoo, some of the northern orcs fled to the south rather than keep going with it all. They mostly didn’t need to go over land. The two easternmost human kingdoms have an ocean on their eastern borders. So the northern orcs just hopped on a ship and sailed south around the human realms to their cousins down there. It caused a few frayed nerves amongst the humans, but since the orcs weren’t attacking anyone and they were out to sea they couldn’t really complain. The orcs themselves tried to warn the humans but weren’t taken all that seriously by the “wise” amongst the humans. They didn’t believe such a demonic incursion was possible, and if the northern orcs did attack then they’d be facing the entire might of an empire that was at the top of its game.

Then the northern orcs emerged from their mountain homes and it was immediately clear something awful had happened to them. Their shamans wielded terrible magic that corrupted the land. They were also far more numerous than the orcs they were used to fighting, albeit physically weaker. The demons wanted a bigger army, so they withered the orcs of the north with a form of cloning, inbreeding and dark magic to get their numbers up to scratch.

You also said that orcs would have zero reason to help humans fight off the black orcs. Well, imagine this race of warriors that prize glory and honour over all things. Suddenly, just under half of their species is driven mad by what turn out to be living nightmares. The black orcs are everything the southern orcs loathe. They’re the living antithesis of orc ideals. Considered to be traitors and a blight on their species. Backed by their demonic overlords, it’s also clear that they could well swarm out over the known world and become practically unbeatable. So yeah, orcs have plenty of reasons to get in that fight. They might not like humans, but a black orc is a walking offence to any of their former brethren.

The allusion to the Spartans was in the orc warrior lifestyle. Orcs love to fight above all other things, and their society reflects that in its attitudes. They don’t have anything like the agogi, but their young are brought up fighting and the provings aren’t exactly light training. Every proven orc is considered to be a warrior, and those that don’t pass muster are rendered virtual second class citizens. Though they often pursue other crafts and such, most of these have some link to making war. The only exception are orc shamans, who focus on the learning of natural magic and the care of the spiritual aspects of their kin. The shamans are also the keepers of the orc religion, as all orcs are dragon worshippers. No one on Arolius has seen a real dragon in a very long time, but the orcs believe that they were blessed by one and that dragons were wardens of the natural world. So they try to keep up their work. Even then, an orc shaman isn’t someone you’d particularly like to come up against on a battlefield. Their connection with nature makes them very friendly with some truly vicious animals that they bring along when they’re called to fight. Giant wolves, mountain lions and even the occasional Wyvern tend to show up when a shaman joins the fight.

This again contrasts against the black orcs, whose corrupted shamans spread a sickly blight across the land that the demons seem to favour. So more than just a personal grudge and outright loathing, their hatred for the black orcs has a religious aspect to it as well.

Though thankfully the corrupted orcs certainly are not bigger and stronger than the war packs sent up from the south. With the exception of perhaps a few “elite” units of northern orcs that have been kept physically similar, most of the horde is comprised of much weaker individuals. Although they usually outnumber the allies by at least 3-1 every time they show up to swarm the battlefield.

The demons don’t just fight with them, however. Lately, things have been showing up in the north that are much scarier than any orc. The power of those armies has been steadily growing, and it’s believed that greater demons have recently entered the world. With that escalation, it’s thought that the demon horde is about to go on the offensive, and with the empire weakened with inner turmoil it’s very doubtful that things will go well for the humans or the orcs when that happens.

BTW, thanks for this conversation. It’s fun to talk about the world building side of my story. Although everything’s largely subject to change if the story requires it. ^_^

And problems emerge

Okay...when you said you enjoyed the world building? You may have spoken (written) too soon, because your last post has some problems with it. Now, mind you, there are also quite a few opportunities, which you can use to make the story even bigger and more complex. That's up to you. But...yeah. I'm a nit-picker, sometimes, and some of what you're saying is...not really workable.


First off: the humans' Empire, and the military machine that it has (or has not) developed.
To start with, although most basic history books don't mention this, there are a couple of fundamental reasons why the Western Roman Empire collapsed, and the Eastern half did not: people, and political influence. Part of this, you have already mentioned--the northern portions of the Empire, as the black orcs have pressed harder and harder, have become progressively depopulated, and increasingly hellish. For obvious reasons, this makes fielding an army--any army--in those regions much, much harder, and the Empire is likely not seeing any concomitant population increase elsewhere from displaced refugees...which means that most of the people in that part of the Empire are being killed, instead of displaced. This is all well and good, and fits in (as far as I can tell) pretty closely with what you've written. However, there is a secondary factor that most people do not consider--namely, that, with the increasingly critical military focus on that front, the Emperor would need to be present personally in order to make sure that his generals did not decide to stage a coup, and trigger a civil war (please note--we're not just talking about the Imperial armies in the north, but also about the rest of the armies elsewhere). In this kind of situation, it is critical for the Emperor to be present so that he has effective control over the bulk of the Imperial armies to the north. This gives him an indisputable power base, and allows him to maintain control over the entire Empire even when he cannot be present--simply put, nobody can afford to cross him, because they will all believe that he can simply trade land for time and come south to destroy them. In the meantime, he will palm off running the central province to trusted lords and ministers, many of whom will be only marginally trustworthy, but who will make sure he gets the resources he needs to continue the fight, so that's all he can really ask of them.
The palace guard, and the First Legion, will likely be...pretty dangerous, actually. The reason for this is because the Emperor would have to be away from the capital so often, along with the vast majority of the army. Thus, the task of ensuring that the southern three kingdoms, plus the central province, obey his dictates would fall to the First Legion, and to the Palace Guard. Thus, both groups would likely be fairly good at their jobs...but the fact that they are not on the front lines, and thus gaining no glory, would mean that they are not at all well respected, and both groups would likely resent that fact. In all likelihood, in fact, the Palace Guard would be the last remnants of the elite infantry that made the Empire so powerful...but because they are most visible standing guard, that is what people would assume they always do. Never mind all that time they spend laying siege to untrustworthy lords, and rebellious towns and villages--they're all slouches, slobs, and could never cut it in a real battle. (Note: the Palace Guard would probably also have a very heavy presence on the front lines, as well, as they would form the core of the Emperor's infantry forces--they would be the only troops he could ever really trust, when you got down to it. This tendency is part of what made the famed Varangian Guard of the Byzantine Empire so renowned--they were the Emperor's palace guards, and thus the only troops he could really trust in battle.)

However, this very remoteness will also have some other implications, one of which is that the law limiting the High Lords to about a cohort apiece (500 men at arms) is going to go bye-bye. Simply put, the vassal kings are not going to be willing or able to obey those laws when such an enormous percentage of the Empire's might is tied up fighting the black orcs. For the two northernmost kingdoms, who are actually seeing black orc incursions into their borders, they will have to maintain armies of their own--state supported militias, perhaps, instead of full-time soldiers, for those lords who are still intent on obeying the letter of the law, whilst others simply maintain units in remote areas that have been growing in number for the last several years/decades. The end result, as the many enemies of the Romans could attest, comes out about the same either way--militia who spend ten or twenty years in combat are effectively indistinguishable from professional soldiers. If anything, the veteran militia may be more experienced and better equipped than the regular troops--this was not uncommon in the Middle Ages. Depending on the circumstances, these armies may actually be larger and more powerful than the Imperial Army, but because they are untrained "militia" units, they would be discounted by most Imperial generals as not being real armies. Regardless, these militia armies likely fight fairly closely to the way they fought before the Empire became a reality--it's how their culture has developed, after all. So, in all likelihood, it would not be uncommon for Imperial armies to have "allied" contingents from these smaller kingdoms, as well as the orcs. THe contingents would be paid by the Empire, which would be how the Empire maintains control over them, but they would not be fighting as Imperial troops--more as auxiliaries, providing specialized skills that the regular army does not have. The Palace Guard and the First Legion stand as the primary barrier to these lords just declaring independence, and taking off, so they would likely be sufficiently feared by most that their presence actually poses a threat...just to keep the crazy people from getting any funny ideas. Not that they would, of course, because they are all loyal citizens of the Empire...but just in case.


Concerning the orcs, I have some problems and/or questions. And yes, retconning a story is always a bad idea, particularly when you've got a pretty strong backstory already.
To start with, problem #1: how were the orcs to the north, and the orcs to the south, in contact with one another? The humans' Empire was between them for hundreds of years, right? So how did the southern orcs know about the northern orcs' fall from grace, and, again, why do they care? As far as they would be able to tell, the humans' Empire, which had apparently already beaten the snot out of them when it was first founded, was still going strong. So why would they assume that the humans, who were much more powerful, could not stop the black orcs and intervene to save the humans' skin. And even if they did, why would the humans accept in time for that intervention to do any good? Remember, just the simple time to move from one end of the empire to another would take months, even if the Empire is fairly small (sadly, that's not an exaggeration--just moving a large body of men from Alexandria to Jerusalem generally took upwards of six weeks even during the height of the Roman Empire--and that would assume that the humans of Arolius had an empire that was that wealthy and well-connected. Which most land-bound empires have not been).

Problem #2: the humans beat the orcs by using hit and run cavalry tactics, light infantry, and javelins.
Congratulations. You have just described a less effective version of the Persian army at Marathon, Thermopylae, and Plataea. As well as just about every Persian army faced by Alexander the Great. And you've put the orcs in the position of the Greeks. And you've declared that the orcs lost.
WTF?
Although cavalry does win the glory, and have the epic tales told about it, very few armies have ever been able to take and hold territory with cavalry, or even with cavalry and light infantry. Of those that have, only the Parthians...no, actually, that's not true. Of the ones that have, every singly one has had its immediate origins in a nomadic people, the bulk of whose warriors were mounted. In other words, if you're going to create an empire, you need good quality infantry, or you need Genghis Khan and his Mongol tribesmen. Cavalry is a good tactical unit, but it is the infantry--especially the heavy infantry--that wins wars. Without superior heavy infantry, there would have been nothing to prevent the orcs from simply marching down from their mountain homes to just raze the human cities to the ground...and that would effectively be the end of the humans' fledgling empire right there. Orcs are bigger than humans, they're tougher, and they're stronger, so they will automatically have a major advantage in shock combat of any kind. The wars between the Greeks and the Persians amply demonstrate what happens when a cavalry-heavy army meets a heavy infantry army on the field of battle. If the humans were relying upon hit and run cavalry tactics, the only way they could prevent somebody like Alexandorc the Great from conquering their entire race would be to be completely nomadic...which you have already stated that they are not. Hence the reason why my original email to you assumed that the Empire's traditional strength lay in heavy infantry.

Problem 3: The orcs are apparently blithering idiots (so are the humans, by the way).
If the humans had used hit and run cavalry tactics so effectively in their war against the orcs, then what inspired the switch to more infantry-centered tactics such as the ones being used in this time period? And, for that matter, why haven't the orcs mounted up, or adopted tactics and techniques to fight that kind of enemy? I mean, the Germans did, at the end of the Roman Empire, so why not the orcs?
And, for that matter, if those tactics worked so well before, why not try them out against the black orcs? The black orcs have to eat, after all, and the supply columns are always a vulnerable point for any army. And if an army decides to live off the land, that means that they must spread out...and makes them horrifically vulnerable to a fast-moving, tightly disciplined cavalry army. Divide and conquer--it has consistently worked for tribes such as the Mongols, the Turks, and many others. It would work here, too. (Admittedly, these tactics would become less effective as the army pushed deeper into Embervine...but so would heavy infantry, and ill-equipped heavy infantry is a lot more vulnerable to simply being swarmed under.)

Problem 4: The northern orcs are everything that the southern orcs loathe....
Okay...this works, except for one tiny little detail. Namely, how would the southern orcs know what the northern orcs have become? Remember--they're not in contact with their northern brethren anymore. From what you've said, we're talking probably at least a hundred years, if not more, between the foundation of the Empire, and the emergence of the black orcs. In other words, the Emperor, if he is still of Alorik's line at all, is more likely to be Alorik's son or grandson than Alorik himself. If the Emperor is Alorik, which the evidence does not support, then you're looking a total corruption of the orcs' race within less than a generation...which would raise all kinds of warning flags among the orc parents, who would not believe that their children, who are so pathetically weak, would be able to pose a serious threat to the humans. This would be sort of like the Spartans deciding that, hey, they haven't been able to march out and conquer the Athenians, so they're just going to set all the helots free, and settle down to a life of peace, poetry, and fine arts. It's just not workable, is what I'm saying. Hate is one thing. But it doesn't make you that stupid. Not as an entire nation, anyway. So...yeah. Hundreds of years. Hundreds of years without contact between the two orc tribes. And then the black orcs appear, and the southern orcs somehow know. How? And why are they so pissed when there is this big, huge, top-of-its-game Empire between the two groups? Come to think of it, how do they know the black orcs are worse than the humans, who have been waging low-level warfare against them for as long as the two races have had contact?
In other words, your original backstory was a lot more plausible than what you're presenting--the southern orcs were refugees, and were fighting to retake their home, rescue any who got left up north, and THEN to put an end to this unacceptable blasphemy of all things good and pure. Especially since, unless the humans also worship dragons, the orcs and the humans are going to have a pretty significant religious conflict going, as well as economic and military. And that's going to be awfully hard for "enemy of my enemy" to overcome.

Problem 5: The fate of the northern refugees.
This is actually a fairly good compromise, and could work, especially if the southern orcs are culturally distinct from the northern orcs. However, this, too, runs into problems.
First off...the northern orc refugees came south via ships. All well and good...but where did they get the ships? Mountains are notoriously short on sailing vessels, after all, and very few mountain tribes have ever bothered to learn to sail. Admittedly, the Greeks were excellent sailors...but the Spartans were not, for a variety of reasons, all of them actually pretty good. Aside from Phoenicia, Athens, and Ethiopia. no mountain people, even those whose mountain homes have come into direct contact with the sea, have ever been good sailors...and there have been a lot of cases where the mountains met with the sea in world history.
Additionally, in addition to getting the ships--ships whose availability would indicate a sizeable seaborne trade route (or several)--there is the problem of learning how to sail said ships. The ocean is just about the most hostile terrestrial environment you can find--yes, even more so than the Arctic and Antarctic ice packs--and surviving for any length of time at sea requires a set of skills that simply cannot be learned on the fly without incurring major casualties. How major? If the northern orc refugees actually sailed around the entire Empire, it would be astonishing if more than one out of every twenty actually made it to the southern orcs...who, living in the southern mountain range, don't have the ports to receive them, or any way of knowing that they're coming. Yes, you have said that the southern orcs fish, but if they're a mountain people, that fishing probably does not constitute an incredibly large portion of their diet, so they're not fishing very heavily. And before you say that I'm being excessively cynical, these are actual numbers from historical voyages among experienced sailors, who knew what to expect, and how to survive a storm, prevent food from going bad, and keep water clean and unfouled. All of which refugees would have no way of knowing.
Again, this is something that made more sense before the retconn. If you can, I'd go back to the original. If not...if you can PM me some kind of outline as to the reasons why, I bet we can probably figure out a working background for you.


Now...opportunities.


Challenge 1: religion.
Orcs, you have said, worship dragons, implying that dragons are ultra-rare creatures, with incredible mystical and spiritual powers, wisdom, etc. What do humans worship? Do they have their own dragon pantheon, or do they worship something that we would think of as gods? Or are they monotheists, and regard the orc religion as complete and utter blasphemy? Or is it a mix of all three?

Challenge 2: Intrigue
If the Empire is as desperate as you imply, that would mean that there is a fair degree of corruption and decadence in the Empire itself. This is likely to be most prominent in the southernmost kingdoms and the central region. How much of these regions surrendered to this spiritual corruption, and how rotten have they become? And is there some sort of reform movement that is just starting to take steps to rectify this problem before all hell breaks loose up north? And no, this question is not an excuse for Greg to swipe Prince Whatsit's private harem. I would never suggest something like that. Not unless it was really funny, anyway. That or awesomely epic. Which it would be.

Challenge 3: Foreign relations
The cost of having any kind of significant fleet--enough to transport lots of refugees, certainly--means that there generally has to be a lively and well-used aquatic trade network. That, in turn, implies another empire/civilization, probably across the northern seas from the Empire (since the Empire's capital province is landlocked, there is little reason for the Empire to turn outward--geographically, they're positioned much like China). What does this other civilization think of all this? Are they even aware of the problem? Do they care? Or are they the ones who triggered the demons' emergence in the first place?

Challenge 4: Elves go where?
You've mention the elves, and the orcs have expressed their traditional disdain for them. But that still leaves the question of why they dislike each other, and where the elves fit into all of this. Are they pressuring the orcs from the south? Are they more desert nomads, or do they have their own agenda, one that only vaguely coincides with the agenda of other civilized races? Or...heck, for all we know, they might be busy fighting with the dwarfs. In which case, there might not ever be any serious elf presence in this tale, beyond Violet and her potions.

No, they don't. So ner, ner, ner, ner, ner!

Ok then, let me crack my knuckles and get into this.

The human empire focuses on its war in the north with the use of peasant-class conscripts from the other realms in the empire. These men make up the bulk of the force up there and they aren’t usually very well equipped or trained. Some of them do turn out to be good fighters, but many of them barely manage to keep hold of their lives. These forces are given some bite by the orcs, and by higher class soldiers who can afford good armour and weapons as well as the training to make a name for themselves.

Whilst it’s true that the Emperor’s presence in the north would probably do a lot of good, the current Emperor is much too old to lead an army. His health is failing and most of his subjects think he’ll die within the year. Of course, they’ve thought that for the past several years and the old codger is still around. His poor health has unfortunately increased the interest of some high lords in making power grabs and being more fiendish than usual. Fortunately, the emperor’s son does at least visit the northern battle lines to help morale and ensure things are going as they’re supposed to. He’s a good man, who has been trying to assist the war effort despite his utter loathing of playing at politics in the capital. His father has asked him to take the title, but he’s been reluctant to jump into that particular snake pit because he feels he’s unready for the task. Still, he’s well liked by enough northern generals that the rest keep their discontent private.

There’s also another more self-evident reason that the armies of the north don’t desert or start a coup. They don’t have enough fighting men at the moment to safely hold back the demonic horde. Their situation is perilous, and if any of them took their armies south to make a move on the capital then they’d be giving their greatest enemy a giant advantage. Despite their differences, even the conscript soldiers in the north immediately find that fighting is self evidently necessary up there. The demons ravage the lands they take, corrupting them with a poisonous blight, blackening them with fire and making them more comfortable for their own kin. Even the most malcontent general isn’t going to risk destabilizing the empire at such at time. Even if he did, most of his men probably wouldn’t leave their posts to follow him. It could literally mean the end of their world.

Unfortunately the flip side of this coin is that whilst it’s incredibly difficult for commanders to defect or start trouble, it’s also very difficult for them to exert influence in the capital. This means that calls for extra men, or more money and supplies often fall on deaf ears. Many of the higher nobility in the south hasn’t even laid eyes on the northern war despite knowing of it, and it’s already a huge cash-sink. The blatant truth is that they feel they ultimately can’t afford it, and knowing that makes all of the rich very guarded about their own fortunes with a sort of last man standing mentality.

As I’ve said, the palace guard are mostly used for political and ornamental purposes. They’re mostly the sons of noblemen who don’t want their heirs to be killed in the north, or they’re nobility who need military service for influence at home. They lead very comfortable lives in the palace, and little is asked of them except to show up during ceremonial events. The Emperor doesn’t even trust them to guard him, and they’re usually kept as decoration outside or in public sections of the palace. They are a useful political tool in that the emperor has immediate access to some very influential people, and leverage on them if necessary. On a number of occasions, the palace guard has been marched north to represent the emperor on the battlefield only to be turned around at the last second to deal with problems in the capital. Strangely enough, during these marches many prominent noble houses suddenly turned out large sums of gold and supplies to support the war effort. The emperor doesn’t do this often, but it’s a useful tool to keep the upper classes in line when all else fails.

The main military duties for domestic security fall squarely on the soldiers of the First Legion. They guard the palace, and they put down rebellions and coups when they arise. The First is largely comprised of veterans from the northern war who have gone above and beyond in their duties. It’s a reward and an honourable reprieve for the hell they’ve gone through, and it gives the armies in the north some hope of an honourable way out of that mess. So there’s no real urge for getting glory amongst them since that’s why they’re there in the first place. Bad-mouthing the First Legion would be something akin to trying to shame a Medal of Honour recipient. It would be in extremely bad taste, other people would hate you for it, and the guys you’re attempting to shame have probably seen worse shit than you and managed to come out of it fine.

So yeah, the palace guard might once have been what you’re thinking in the way of an elite imperial guard, but they’ve gone downhill quite a bit since then. I feel what I’ve got here is plenty workable in terms of the story I’ve got going too. Not much actual war occurs in the Empire, but there’s plenty of politicking and backstabbing.

Also about the northern kingdoms needing to maintain armies of their own? They don’t. They’re subject to conscription the same as the rest of the empire. Though they obviously have more of a vested interest and are generally more supportive of the army, they don’t get armies of their own. More volunteers are usually taken from the northern kingdoms, but they’re dispersed across the entire front rather than being allowed to form their own armies. This is to avoid any instance of favouritism, and thus avoid giving the nobles an excuse to form their own armies. The lords of the north aren’t exactly thrilled with this situation. They do know that they wouldn’t stand a chance against the demons with only their own armies, however. So they grudgingly keep to the rules to keep the imperial army fighting for them.

That being said, the northern two kingdoms are generally more martial than the others. Peasants are encouraged to practice with spear, javelin and bow. Sometimes they’re called in as auxiliaries if the imperial army is in a desperate situation. Still, they’re not employed as a proper militia for reasons already stated, combined with the fact that they’re also essential to producing food and other materials for the army. It’s no good having a trained and dangerous reserve if you’re not going to be able to eat come winter. So they can be a battlefield presence in the north, but they’re not nearly strong enough to be able to be employed against the First Legion. So they’re not considered a viable threat to the 500 rule.

I’m slightly perplexed by your consistent perplexation at the idea of the northern orcs and the southern orcs being in contact with each other. Firstly, before the orc-human war it was fairly easy for an orc to travel from north to south. They could just walk through the human kingdoms. In later years, they might have come across some racism as the human leaders tried to discredit them and paint them as enemies. Still, these are huge well-trained warriors that tend to travel around in packs. Until the human kingdom declared open war on them, they didn’t tend to get bothered that much on the journey to the north or south. It’s true that after the war began, contact wasn’t as easy, but it wasn’t completely impossible. Orcs built up their own navy big enough to repel the humans so they couldn’t be outflanked along the coast by a major human naval force. Human ships also tended to disappear mysteriously the closer they got to the southern waters without any help from the orcs. In the north, the orcs managed to fare well enough using their own ships. A few of the shamans were asked to consult on the problem, and they made a similar peace with the northern ocean as the Southern orcs have with the Embervine Forest. It’s not easy to start a naval war when the sea itself doesn’t like you very much. ^_^

Contact between the tribes was difficult, but not impossible. Even then orcs tended to treat their human slaves better than the humans treated their peasants. It was easy enough to recruit human spies to carry messages. They might have used this advantage better than they did, but orcs aren’t really all that adept at subterfuge and espionage.

Then the war ended and contact resumed between the north and south as before. Messengers and diplomats were not to be messed around with on pain of getting on the Emperors bad side, green skin or not. Then when the refugees came from the north after the north fell to the demons, the refugees just told the southern orcs what had happened. I said that in my previous post. I also pretty clearly explained why they cared!

I also most certainly did not say that the human empire beat the snot out of the orcs. I said they fought to a stalemate.

So why would they assume that the humans, who were much more powerful, could not stop the black orcs and intervene to save the humans' skin. And even if they did, why would the humans accept in time for that intervention to do any good? Remember, just the simple time to move from one end of the empire to another would take months, even if the Empire is fairly small (sadly, that's not an exaggeration--just moving a large body of men from Alexandria to Jerusalem generally took upwards of six weeks even during the height of the Roman Empire--and that would assume that the humans of Arolius had an empire that was that wealthy and well-connected. Which most land-bound empires have not been).

Click to expand...

I’m sorry, but I’m not exactly sure what you’re saying there.

I am sure that I didn’t say that the orcs were beaten solely by cavalry and light infantry. Again, here’s something from my post:

During that war, humans utilised hit and run cavalry tactics to great effect. Though they didn’t use bows so much as javelins and light infantry in front of their battle lines to prevent orcs from being able to deliver their devastating charge.

Click to expand...

Humans still used heavy infantry. They just supplemented this with more effective use of cavalry and light infantry to harass the orcs and prevent them from delivering their charge directly into the lines of their heavy infantry. Sorry if this wasn’t clear!

Orcs didn’t mount up because they’re usually too heavy for horses. They also don’t breed horses of their own because they live in mountainous and jungle terrain. Their carts are pulled by ox-like beasts and there isn’t a domesticated animal on Arolius that they could effectively ride into battle. They might be able to get on the back of a Wyvern with the help of a shaman, but Wyverns aren’t easily tamed and they wouldn’t be able to produce a proper force from anything like that.

Again, the southern orcs knew what the northern orcs had become (or at least what they were becoming) from the refugees from the north who escaped south. There was a little confusion for a time when the northern orcs retreated into their mountainous lands before re-emerging years later as the black orcs. I’d say this took a few generations to fully happen. During this time the southern orcs knew something fucked up was going on up there, but they didn’t have the power to go out in force to check what was going on. Any spies or envoys they sent disappeared, and the humans didn’t believe their stories. Then the black orcs showed up and started tear-assing through human lands. The southern orcs were all like: “We fucking told you so!” Then the humans were just all: “No way, bro! That shit’s fucked up!” And then the orcs just came back with: “Ya think? Those ass-clowns sure are messing you up. You maybe need a hand with that?” Then the humans offered them a fist-bump and everyone went to punch the black orcs in the face.

Or at least that’s how I currently imagine it in my head. I’ll probably have to re-write that if it ever needs putting in the story.

You’re also not understanding the power of demonic taint. The demons influenced many of the orcs with promises of power, and by stirring up hatred for the humans. They started off as their friends, but what they were offering was less like good forward-planning advice and more like crystal meth. By the time the orcs were having children they were way too far gone into madness and demonic control to think anything else.

For the opportunities:

1 – Orcs worship dragons, humans worship human-looking gods. There’s a reason for this in the mythology, but again it amounts to major spoilers.

2 – You’re treading on some of my plot points here, but you’ll have to read about ‘em in future instalments. Oh, but there’s no southern lord harem.

3 – There’s no other civilisation across the sea (that anyone knows about) and the ocean at the time of Gregory’s arrival is a much more dangerous place than it was when much of the above happened, again for reasons that will hopefully be explained later.

4 – Elves as their own civilization are largely considered to be dead at the time of Gregory’s arrival. There are some cross breeds in the human kingdom, but nothing like the old elves. These cross breeds aren’t looked down upon, and many find them quite enthralling, but they’re nothing special as a subculture in the kingdom itself.

Hope this answers everything!

No! My precious problems! Come back!

The human empire focuses on its war in the north with the use of peasant-class conscripts from the other realms in the empire. These men make up the bulk of the force up there and they aren’t usually very well equipped or trained. Some of them do turn out to be good fighters, but many of them barely manage to keep hold of their lives. These forces are given some bite by the orcs, and by higher class soldiers who can afford good armour and weapons as well as the training to make a name for themselves.

Question: are these higher class soldiers volunteers from a wealthier class of peasant (yeomen, I suppose), or are they more likely to be from the lower classes of the nobility? In other words, are we talking foot knights, mounted cavalry, or heavy knights for the humans' elite forces?


Of course, they’ve thought that for the past several years and the old codger is still around. His poor health has unfortunately increased the interest of some high lords in making power grabs and being more fiendish than usual.

This is pretty standard for a failing empire--as the last great emperor's health fails, the lords start getting more actively ambitious. The rise in corruption, decadence, and general governmental insanity for the fall of the Western Roman Empire started near the beginning of the fourth century--Constantine's conversion to Christianity was likely part of his efforts to combat this growing moral/legal decay in the Empire's institutions. If I had to guess, I'd say that you are basing the current prince off of Constantine's first son, Crispus, who, by all accounts, was a fairly incorruptible man (right up until Constantine ordered him executed, anyway).

They don’t have enough fighting men at the moment to safely hold back the demonic horde. Their situation is perilous, and if any of them took their armies south to make a move on the capital then they’d be giving their greatest enemy a giant advantage. Despite their differences, even the conscript soldiers in the north immediately find that fighting is self evidently necessary up there. The demons ravage the lands they take, corrupting them with a poisonous blight, blackening them with fire and making them more comfortable for their own kin. Even the most malcontent general isn’t going to risk destabilizing the empire at such at time. Even if he did, most of his men probably wouldn’t leave their posts to follow him. It could literally mean the end of their world.

You would think that this would be true. It would be sane. It would be logical. Hell, it would even be intelligent. Sadly, history--especially the history of the Roman Empire--does not bear this out. Ambitious generals, especially generals who win battles and manage to keep casualties relatively light, are likely to be able to cement the loyalty of their men, and essentially build an independent power base of their own. Roman history is full of examples of this, and it was a long-lived dynasty in the Roman Empire that did not see at least one general leave the frontier completely undefended in an attempt to take their army to Rome and seize the title of Emperor. This first happened in the year 68 AD, which immediately led to the first of the great Germanic incursions into Gaul, and then again in 193, the 235-284 period, 306, and, following the year 337, was the standard state of affairs more often than not. Yes, the military pressure on the Imperial armies should keep the generals busy, but a general whose requests for reinforcements are being consistently denied is just as likely to decide that his options are limited if he wants to keep at least the central province out of enemy hands.

Historically, the ability of a dynasty to rule from its capital even while its armies were waging war elsewhere was not something that came about on this planet until the reign of the Sun King in France during the 17th century. This is because this ability requires both a sense of nationalist belief and/or purpose, a highly centralized government, and an extremely efficient bureaucracy, all of which the Empire appears to be lacking (if it had those, you'd be getting something much closer to the Holy Roman Empire than the late Roman Empire). Before that, a king or an emperor generally had to either be physically present himself (or herself), or they had to have an immediate family member present in order to keep the army's commanders from getting funny ideas about how the current ruler might not be the best man for the job. This is especially true in times of war, and almost certainly true when there is some kind of internal, domestic tension or strife quietly attacking the fabric of the Empire--something about such times has, historically, made people just go nuts, and their soldiers have always cheerfully followed them, especially if it means that they can get out of the current hell of the battlefront, and into someplace safer, where they can get some money and maybe think about leaving some kind of legacy for their family (although few bother with this last bit).


Peasants are encouraged to practice with spear, javelin and bow. Sometimes they’re called in as auxiliaries if the imperial army is in a desperate situation. Still, they’re not employed as a proper militia for reasons already stated, combined with the fact that they’re also essential to producing food and other materials for the army.

Standard conscription protocols by the end of the Western Roman Empire were approximately one person out of every hundred. Considering that the Western Roman Empire, by the end, still had somewhere between twenty and thirty million citizens, that still came out to somewhere between two and three hundred thousand soldiers. This was likely more than the armies of the time could really handle, but still would not produce a significant dent in a region's ability to feed itself. Granted, the humans' Empire is probably a bit smaller, but the same point would still remain--conscription, or even mustering the peasants into auxiliaries, would not seriously damage the region's ability to feed itself. The ongoing depopulation caused by the demons' destruction of good agricultural land would damage the region's ability to feed the armies moving through, however, which means that it actually makes more sense to have a heavily armed, highly militarized, and well-trained populace that can stop the demons cold on their own than it does to rely upon the conscript armies of the Empire. People can be replaced. The land, once it's gone, is gone forever.



I’m slightly perplexed by your consistent perplexation at the idea of the northern orcs and the southern orcs being in contact with each other. Firstly, before the orc-human war it was fairly easy for an orc to travel from north to south.

There are a number of reasons why I am having problems grasping this, but probably the most significant is that it is more or less totally contradictory to human experience (admittedly, orcs are not human, but you get my drift). Throughout history, whenever any two groups of people have become physically separated, they have pretty much completely lost contact, and begun to culturally diverge. A prime example of this can be seen in the example of the Celts--they spread out across almost all of Europe, but as first the Massilians, then the Illyrians, and then the Hellenic kingdoms started to make inroads, the various groups of Celts began to splinter, and lose contact with each other. For instance, in the fourth century BC, the Celts had a strong presence south of the Alps, on the Italian penninsula...but, because the Massilian Greeks stood between them and an easy passage to the west, they drifted out of contact with their Gallic cousins, despite being physically contiguous. When the Romans conquered the Cisapline Gauls, the Celts living in what would be France neither knew, nor really cared what happened to their southern cousins. And if you think that's bad, just imagine how disinterested they were in the fates of the Celtic tribes in Turkey! The same thing happened with most of the colonies settled by the Greek city-states of ancient times, and, more recently, with the United States of America and Great Britain. It is interesting to note that the latter took place despite regular infusions of people, and remaining in regular and intensive contact with its home culture--the circumstances, combined with the geographical barriers, simply created too great a difference between the two groups. This happens even when contact is fairly easy, there is no power (hostile or otherwise) in between, and the two cultures develop fairly similarly. And it has an effect--in point of fact, this effect was so strong that, in the two World Wars, there was a sizable percentage of the American population, most of them descended primarily from English colonists, who were in favor of screwing the English for all that we could get away with, or even allying ourselves with the Germans! And if this is the level of dissonance between two such nations that evolved so closely in parallel, I can only imagine what the orcs would have gone through!

Simply put, when you have two peoples who are not in direct contact with each other, you get divergence. Sort of a "how would those northern snobs know what it's like to live in a jungle? Those bastards get their rain spread out, and they don't have anything like the predators WE have to deal with. Where do they get off on saying that we're doing it wrong?" type of thing.


Orcs built up their own navy big enough to repel the humans so they couldn’t be outflanked along the coast by a major human naval force.

Why would they bother? If the ocean didn't like the humans, and the orcs were able to fight the humans to a standstill in the jungle/mountains, why would they bother to build a navy? Most people--myself included--would assume that the barriers already present would hold the humans at bay pretty much indefinitely.
Additionally, a strong maritime presence is very rarely established solely (or even primarily) for military reasons, and when it is, it is usually to facilitate offensive actions. If the orcs were not attacking into human territory, than building a fleet would represent an enormous cost in resources that had little to no real point, especially if the humans (whom the ocean does not like) do not have a navy of their own.
Finally, most peoples that have built up a strong maritime presence have traditionally started out with strong local agriculture, or a truly astonishingly good reason to do so. Of the latter, only the cities of Venice and Genoa spring to mind--almost all other naval powers have had very strong agricultural sector (because ships are bloody expensive), which you have already stated the orcs do not possess.
The need for a strong agricultural base comes about because shipbuilding, like stoneworking, is one of the few heavy industries that ancient or Medieval tech levels can sustain. The amount of manpower required to build even a single ship is enormous, and the complexity, both in technology and in logistics, is enough to require a significant surplus to be available on an ongoing basis. Even the Vikings and the Ancient Greeks had to live with this, which is why places like Athens had a strong navy, and places like Syracuse and Epirus did not (neither did most of the tribes along the Baltic Sea). Without the manpower surplus and the food surplus created by extensive agriculture, it would be extremely difficult for the orcs to come up with the people to sail the ships, or the food to feed the sailors out at sea. It is from these facts that my assumption that the orcs did not and do not have a large standing navy or commercial maritime presence comes.


Before the demons broke through from the dark realms into Arolius, the orcs were split into two main tribes that inhabited the mountains to the north and the south. These tribes were on friendly terms with each other and fought together in their war with the humans. During that war, humans utilised hit and run cavalry tactics to great effect. Though they didn’t use bows so much as javelins and light infantry in front of their battle lines to prevent orcs from being able to deliver their devastating charge. These tactics became less effective the more deeply they got into Embervine and the mountainous terrain of the north.

Humans, being the complete assholes that we are ( ) once intermingled with orc society before trying to actively enslave them. Oh yes, the bad kind of slaves. This led to a war between three of the human kingdoms at the time, and it did not do the orc population any favours. Because of this, orcs generally distrust humans, and they have always been forbidden from becoming true members of orc culture. Hence why Torren has never been formally recognised and why none of the humans in the camp are anything other than servants at the lowest rung of society with virtually no power.

Relations changed a little for the better when the first human emperor conquered all the five human kingdoms and effectively made peace with the orcs. It laid the foundations for humans and southern orcs to form a troubled alliance when the demons broke into Arolius. Orcs might not trust humans, but they hate their dishonoured fallen kin and loathe the creatures that defiled them.

Which brings us to the major problems facing orc society when TMD starts. First off, the human empire isn’t what it was when their peace treaty was signed.

These two sections seem to imply that the orcs once populated a much larger area than they do now, and that they have been effectively driven out of a large swathe of land. I know you have said (twice now) that the war between orcs and humans ended in a stalemate...but very few people I have ever met would describe the result you imply here as a stalemate. Additionally, your statement that the humans did not, at first, believe the orcs when they said there was a problem in the northern orc kingdom, again, implies that the humans, at least, have good reason to regard the outcome of the human-orc wars to have been a fairly resounding victory--an enemy who forces a stalemate, or, even better, is just barely defeated, tends to garner a lot more respect than an enemy who is driven from large(?) parts of their territory, and forced on the defensive. Since the humans did not listen, that implies a high degree of arrogance, especially towards the orcs, which in turn implies that the humans think that orc warriors are simply not that dangerous. The current war would likely have turned this viewpoint around, but there would still be strong elements of "best soldiers in the world when led by white officers" among the human commanders regarding their orc allies.
Alternatively, the human Empire could already have begun its slide into collapse even then, in which case their response likely would have been arrogant rejection of any possible threat. This, however, is unusual--most empires that are faced with a strong rival/equal do not slide into decay quickly or easily, and it is much harder for them to dismiss their rivals as being worthless and no threat (unless they are young idiots, which does happen in such cultures).


Humans still used heavy infantry. They just supplemented this with more effective use of cavalry and light infantry to harass the orcs and prevent them from delivering their charge directly into the lines of their heavy infantry. Sorry if this wasn’t clear!

Yeah, you mentioned this. I just forgot. Um...oops? (I would do a facepalm smiley here, but have yet to figure out how to depict such a thing).


You’re also not understanding the power of demonic taint. The demons influenced many of the orcs with promises of power, and by stirring up hatred for the humans. They started off as their friends, but what they were offering was less like good forward-planning advice and more like crystal meth. By the time the orcs were having children they were way too far gone into madness and demonic control to think anything else.

So...what, the current emperor...is he Alorik? I mean, are we talking one generation of corruption here, or what?


Elves as their own civilization are largely considered to be dead at the time of Gregory’s arrival. There are some cross breeds in the human kingdom, but nothing like the old elves. These cross breeds aren’t looked down upon, and many find them quite enthralling, but they’re nothing special as a subculture in the kingdom itself.

What happened to them? And are there dwarfs? Will we get to see the advent of highly intoxicated short humanoids speaking with an inexplicably Scottish accent, and carrying enough axes and chain mail to require specially constructed bridges to cross rivers? Or will we not be that lucky?

Tah dah!

The conscription only really effects the lower and lower-middle classes in the empire. Higher class soldiers are wealthy middle class relations of merchantmen and artisans, these guys can afford some training and better equipment. They usually end up being support cavalry or men-at-arms. Most of these guys are looking to volunteer to earn higher status from a knighthood or to simply make a name for themselves. Plenty of these types from the northern kingdoms sign up out of a sense of duty, which is less prevalent further to the south. The higher classes of the nobility who volunteer usually represent the elite of the imperial army. These guys can afford the best equipment, the best training, and can usually outfit a small contingent of their own guardsmen similarly. Because of this, they usually get a little more slack in deciding how they want to fight. Some join the infantry and some fill out the ranks of heavy cavalry. Most noble households have at least one representative of their family fighting in the north, and it’s considered a black mark on a family name to do absolutely nothing for the war effort. The northern lords are traditionally the most common of the higher ranks, since the demons threaten their homelands directly.

In more recent times, the south western kingdom has entered into a bit of a financial crisis of its own that’s rendered many formerly wealthy houses almost bankrupt. This has seen a surge of volunteers coming from that kingdom to get away from the hardship, and even to start over.

The problem with the assertion that a northern general might just take his army from fighting to go south and seize the capital is a pretty simple one. There are no quiet spots on the northern border. If one of the generals up there went insane and decided to march his army south then he’d have to raise an army big enough to defeat the First Legion along with thousands of knights that were on leave in the Imperial City. Not to mention they’d have to lay siege to the city itself and take it before the other kingdoms showed up with whoever they could muster. They’d also have to do this whilst defending themselves from behind from a surge of demons who’d come through the giant freaking hole the absence of the army had left in the northern battle lines. Oh, and they’d also have to deal with the other generals in the north who’d realised one of their number had gone completely snooker loopy and broken the defence, leading the world to its doom.

All in all, this isn’t remotely a comparable situation with the Roman frontier. The truth is that the humans are outmatched, outnumbered and in a much more dire situation than Rome ever was, even during its decline. A general who started yelling “let’s go take the imperial city!” just wouldn’t be followed by a big enough number of soldiers to make a dent. Even if he was, he’d certainly sign the death warrant for everything he knows.

Conscription in the human empire is also much higher than 1 in every hundred citizens. It’s more like… 70% of all the able bodied men. Women, children and the elderly are left to tend the farms. The auxiliary forces of the north are made up mostly of women.

Again, it’s a much more desperate situation than anything seen by Rome, or anything even up to the world wars. Failure to hold in the north doesn’t mean that the demons might get a bit of land, or that some barbarian tribe might declare independence. It means certain doom for everything humanity knows. There’s no point in trying to get power through military force if it means you almost certainly won’t have anything to rule over.

For this reason, most of the politicking in the empire can be quite dangerous. Assassination isn’t uncommon, and political rivalries can usually end up as a death sentence for at least one of the participants. With all their military force tied up in the north, things have gotten very vicious in the shadows of the higher courts.

As for the issue of the northern orcs and the southern orcs losing contact again? No. Though I agree with you that the two tribes in the north and south could have culturally diverged, they didn’t. This was partially due to military necessity, and also due to orc culture. Firstly, the orcs don’t have huge numbers in terms of population so they stuck close together despite their distance. With a presence in the north and the south, they could make war on the human kingdoms on two fronts. Each of them alone would have had much bigger problems facing the full force of the human military alone. They also have a lot in common in terms of culture, and they believe that both tribes were blessed by the same dragon in the first age. Most southern orcs had family in the north, and it was customary for war packs to train in both places before settling down.

Also, for most of time the relations between orcs and humans were quite cordial. Humans usually preferred to expand into each other’s kingdoms rather than go and fight the green giants in their dangerous jungles and cold mountain homes. Some of the war packs would even lend out their services to the humans, and came in handy in making sure villages, towns and farms weren’t burned during lesser conflicts. Though they tended to avoid the bigger squabbles and engagements due to not wanting to pick sides. So again, going through the human kingdoms wasn’t remotely difficult for them until the years before the war.

Orc culture isn’t really founded on a sense of nationality. They don’t really think they own the lands they live in, after all. The lands have their own spirits and natures that the orcs are quite content to get along with. Orc culture has an element to it that is almost a religion. They come of age by proving to each other that they are true orcs. They believe in the same things. They fight the same way. Plus, the orc tendency to love fighting, and their simple way of solving disputes tends to keep inner conflict on a small scale. Their shared appearance (until the fall of the north) also did a lot to assist their shared culture.

It’s like you said. Separation comes from indifference and conflict. The south might have an outpost in Embervine, but they mostly lived in the mountains like their northern kin. So what could the orcs say about the other orcs?

“Stupid southern green skinned, tusked, land lovers that do everything the same as we do! Pfft! Who needs the south? Wait, we’re going to go see grandpa? Cool!”

Doesn’t really have the same ring to it, does it?

Also, from a storytelling perspective I wanted the relative harmony of the orcs to contrast against the conflict with the human realms. I’d like them to be a more stable force, and I’d also like to loss of their northern tribe to be more a loss and betrayal of family than just a national dispute. There needs to be something personal there, and something tragic, or it just doesn’t pay off the same way.

As for the navies, northern orcs built ships to supplement their affinity with the water. The sea is largely indifferent to what’s floating on it, and it can’t tell what’s an enemy ship and what might be a friendly ship. So they built their own navy. Though the northern shaman’s affinity for the water would prove disastrous for the humans and the southern orcs after their fall when they were backed by infernal power. In the human-orc war though, it was only the northern waters that were dangerous and enchanted by the shamans. Human ships were still a dangerous threat, but could effectively be dealt with by the smaller orc navy. The orcs didn’t always build ships of their own, and could raid human coastal cities and their shamans could sink and raise recently sunken vessels from the ocean floor if given enough time and preparation. Although sinking a vessel via their connection with the sea would probably take time and exhaust a shaman, and raising one up would exhaust several and would only ever be done after a battle. Even so, the northern orcish navy wasn’t huge, but it was enough to deter an attack from the shore.

Dunno where you’re getting that the orcs lost a large swathe of land. The mountains and Embervine aren’t massive to begin with, but they’re orc territory and that’s all they’ve ever had or needed. I said it was a stalemate largely due to geography. The orc infantry got slowed and bogged down by skirmishers and cavalry on the open fields of the human kingdom. Then when the humans pushed into the orc mountain homelands or Embervine they quickly found the tables turned against them. Their horses weren’t nearly as effective and their light infantry were suddenly fighting in a territory their enemy was incredibly comfortable with. Formation fighting was also much more difficult in that terrain and tended to give the orc way of making war a much more effective advantage. So although both sides made gains and losses, they were largely kept at a stalemate by geography.

Also, humans? Arrogance? Yup.

The current emperor is a descendant of Alorik. The demons came to Arolius after Alorik united the kingdoms into the empire. It took them a while to fully corrupt the northern orcs, and Alorik died before the black orcs emerged from hiding. The demons and black orcs were initially contained to the northern mountains and some territories in the northern realms. The elven civilization helped with this since they lived in a nearby forest on the eastern coastline. Unfortunately, the demons continued to grow in strength and the black orcs in numbers. Eventually the elven forest kingdom was suddenly overrun and nothing’s been heard from them in decades. The demons seem to be massing their strength, and although they continually keep pressure on the front lines, it’s thought that they have bigger things in store when the day comes to truly go on the offensive. The magic of Arolius is diminishing, leaving the human mages almost impotent compared to their former strength. Demonic power rises from a different source, and they seem to have a link to it and wherever it was they came from.

Things are looking pretty damn bleak at the minute.

There aren’t any plans for dwarves… yet.

Hmmm

Okay...that leads to more questions

Question 1: Is the Human Empire positioned more like China, with a large coast along a large percentage of its circumference, or are we talking something closer to Germany, Poland, or Thailand? Or do the humans even have a coastline at all?

Question 2: How big is the human Empire? Are we talking France-sized, most of Central Europe-sized, or China-sized? Also, how many humans are there, versus how many orcs?

Question 3: Do the northern and southern mountain ranges touch? And, come to that, why have the southern orcs in living in mountains anyway? Leaving them in the jungle sounds like it would fit your story better, and leaving the southern orcs as refugees who were forced to flee their homes, watch their loved ones twisted into unholy abominations, and see the lands they once claimed as their own contaminated and rendered physically and spiritually unclean would definitely create a much more immediate and easily understood sense of betrayal and tragedy than having two separate tribes in two geographically distinct locations. Seriously. You want a personal betrayal? You want a tragic backstory? Heck, you want a society that you can portray as being overall more stable and in touch with itself and with nature? Go with your original story--the southern orcs used to live in the northern mountains, and then the demons managed to persuade a sizeable percentage of the orcs that they should essentially sell their souls to the demons.
Or, if you really want to create that sense of unexpected betrayal and loss, make it so that the orc custom of every orc being another orc's slave isn't just a cultural quirk--it's the basis of the orcs' magic, law, religion, and...well, everything, really. In other words, what keeps the orcs' society from disintegrating isn't law as we humans know it, but the simple fact that each orc owes allegiance and loyalty to one or more other orcs. That way, you can have one or two (likely no more than a dozen) high-ranking orcs--say, orcs that are essentially three or four (or more) levels above Grolfir, the local warchief--one or two high-ranking orcs who fell victim to the demons' influence, and pledged their souls and the souls of all their slaves to the demons...which would, by law, custom, and, unfortunately, the magical bonds that form the basis of orc society, force every orc who answered to those few high-ranking orcs to forfeit their souls to the demons. Which, to an orc, would be a betrayal of the worst kind imaginable. This is something that would go beyond treason. It would go beyond a silly Hatfield-McCoy type blood feud. This would be an abomination and a blasphemy of the worst sort, and it would be a crime of unimaginable proportions that was committed by the very leaders the orcs trusted the most: their tribal chiefs. And, what's worse, it would be a blasphemy that the scattered few unafflicted orcs--those orcs who were magically protected by the handful of shamans who saw what was coming and were strong enough and wise enough to shield the orcs beholden to them, as well as those scattered micro-tribes that were too stubborn, too proud, or even simply too remote to be caught up in the mass-betrayal of their race--those few unafflicted orcs simply would not have the numbers, or the magical prowess to fight the ones who could not be saved. It would, from the orcs' point of view, literally be the apocalypse come to life, and they would probably only have some vague idea of why their neighbors suddenly started attacking them because one or two truly powerful and gifted shamans gave their lives so their apprentices could escape and get as many of the unafflicted orcs to safety as possible.
This kind of semi-mystical bond between owner and slave would also have a serious impact on the orcs' culture, as it would make the orcs largely unable to kill each other over minor issues--if they do kill a fellow orc, it weakens or harms those orcs to whom the killers owe their fealty, and that bond of fealty is one that an orc literally cannot ignore. Obeying that bond of fealty is part of who they are. In point of fact, the very mobility of slave versus owner comes about because the orcs, even the most high-ranking orcs, are, ultimately, slaves to the dragons who they worship. Since the dragons don't care who is in charge (or so the thinking goes), anybody who can take ownership of the entire tribe of orcs can be their chief...but the problem is that the orc who does so is now responsible for that entire tribe, so he has to take care of them, make sure that they are well-fed, cared for, etc. If he (or she) cannot do so as well as another orc, than it is the orc's duty, as a loyal slave to the dragons, to step aside, and let the better leader take over. Combine this belief with the thought that right makes might--that the one whom the dragons favor will inevitably be given a portion of their might--and you basically get the orcs' society as it is described to date--stable, open, and, for all that it is based on frequent combat and tests of strength, will, and wit, one that is surprisingly orderly, if not very decorous.
This, too, would answer the question of why Grolfir came down so hard on Gregory when Algra declared herself to be owned by a human--humans are not, and never have been, part of this web of fealty and ownership, which is why human society is so much more arrogant, militant, and volatile than that of the orcs. It is also why human slaves, for all that they are well-treated, are not allowed to become full members of the orcs' tribal power structure (assuming I understand this correctly, anyway)--simply put, they cannot become part of the orcs' power structure, because the orcs cannot be "owned" by any human ever born--the humans have their own gods, and are not attuned to the dragons like the orcs are. This would also create a great deal of friction between those humans who are rich, powerful, and have some understanding of orc culture (but not the magic behind that culture), and the orcs themselves. Thus, Prince Whatsit would understand that all orcs are slaves to some other orc, and that humans can be slaves to orcs, but would literally be unable to understand why orcs cannot be slaves owned by humans (although, from what you are saying, it would seem that they can be subjects to a local human ruler...sort of, anyway). In other words, his plans are, according to his understanding/arrogance/beliefs, the most beneficial outcome and probably the least damaging solution to what he views as a continuing barrier to his kingdom's unfettered expansion to the south. The fact that the orcs would regard this as both a grave insult and religiously unacceptable would completely pass him by, and given that humans are so arrogant, corrupt, and generally vicious, he would likely not take kindly to anybody who attempted to correct that impression.
Likewise, for Algra to claim that a human owned her in front of the entire tribe would therefore mean one of three things: that Gregory serves the dragons just as the orcs do, and so is able to take part in the orcs' mystical bonds with their spiritual masters; that Algra is removing herself from the service of the dragons entirely, which would be a betrayal on par with the betrayal that led to so many orcs being transformed into black orcs; or, finally, that Gregory, despite being a servant of the dragons, is not a slave to the dragons in the same way (or on the same level) that the orcs are, but in fact essentially outranks any orc ever born. In other words, Algra has basically claimed that Gregory is one of three things: a demon, a very strange-looking orc, or a prophet of the dragons. And, no matter which Gregory turns out to be, it would be Grolfir's responsibility to his tribe, to his owner, and to his gods, to ascertain which of three Gregory might be, and to undertake whatever actions necessary to deal with the situation. Thus, he would most certainly have placed Gregory in a situation that would test Gregory in a way that no demon would willingly accept, and that no true servant of the dragons would have any problems living with. Which is to say, Gregory was sent to warrior training--as every true servant and defender of the dragons must be--and placed among the weakest and the most problematic pack of orcs, as they present the sole indisputable challenge that Grolfir could devise. If they suddenly started winning, without changing the way they fought, than that would indicate that something was magically assisting them...which, since Gregory does not appear to be a magician, would mean that he has some kind of power that he is reluctant to display in the light of day. And that reluctance would in turn mark him as probably being a demon of some description (demons traditionally are reluctant to openly display their full powers in broad daylight). If the Runts keep on losing, than Gregory clearly cannot be a prophet, since a prophet who is backed by the will and the wisdom of the dragons would find a way to make good the Runts' weaknesses. But...if Gregory can teach the Runts to make good their weaknesses, and to become dangerous combatants in their own right? Well...then perhaps Gregory truly is sent to show the orcs that the dragons do forgive them, and that things aren't as hopeless as they seem, and that the black orcs aren't proof that the dragons have, in fact, abandoned the orcs altogether...something which I can well imagine that some mysterious individuals might have been whispering in the ears of many of the southern orcs (this, incidentally, would explain Talia's presence--the human Emperor got wind that something strange was going on among his orc allies, and sent agents into the orcs' lands to find more information).
And, of course, he did show up wearing the dragons' ring. Which, one way or another, could be a powerful sign in its own right.

Question 4: 70% conscription?! Good heavens, man, just how big an army are the humans fielding?! Even if the Human Empire was only the size of, say, Medieval England (roughly 2-3 million souls), that would still yield an army numbering in the millions! And I am assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that the Human Empire has more people than just two or three million.
Nations that are capable of waging total war--so, in other words, nations with a very strong bureaucracy and an equally strong national identity and economy--can generally field no more than 15% of the total population as troops...which just happens to be almost exactly the surplus that ancient and medieval agricultural methods could sustain. This does not take into account the need to produce armor, wagons, weapons, supplies, and so forth and so on, which would probably bring the total numbers down to something closer to 5% or 6%. And, again, this is if the Human Empire is sufficiently well-organized, and sufficiently cohesive, to be able to wage total war against the demons, which the snake's pit of politics would argue against. Even this large a conscription--one person in twenty, in other words--would strain the economy of the Human Empire beyond the breaking point, because production capacity for critical things like pottery, iron tools, salt, bowls, baskets, knives, saws, axes, wood for the fire, and so forth and so on would be about 30% below what the population needed to survive (most economies rarely have more than 2-3% give in them before they run out of luxuries to produce). This would lead to rampant inflation, devaluing the currency (orc money would probably be more widely accepted than Imperial currency, because orc money would have at least a nodding acquaintance with some kind of precious metal), gradual decay of the urban and rural infrastructure, and so on and so forth. 70% conscription would leave the cities and the villages largely empty, and would require the humans to import huge quantities of food and grain from the orcs, the elves, and probably even the black orcs, especially if the human armies are taking any kind of serious casualties in the fighting. Not to mention the enormous financial strain of trying to actually pay those soldiers (or even just pay for their supplies).
If you've got a well-armed, and fairly experienced peasant militia, you can sometimes get away with mustering seventy percent of the male populace--not the general populace, just the men, because we're fundamentally expendable--to provide an emergency relief force, especially for winter or summer campaigns (not that anybody sane campaigns in snow anyway, even with modern weapons and warfare). Spring and fall campaigns deny even that resource, as the peasants have to be at home planting or harvesting if you want food this winter.
If the humans really are mustering that kind of reinforcements--35% of the population, remember, or 70% of the eligible menfolk--than, yes, the orcs would be all that are keeping them alive, because the humans' army would be almost gone during the spring and autumn months. If that were the case, than the orcs would be fighting essentially to hold the black orcs in check for those six months of the year, and relying upon the human armies to push the black orcs back and retake lost lands during the summer months (again, nobody sane campaigns in the winter, because frostbite and other issues quickly become serious problems. And no, the Russians are not sane. Effective, yes. Sane, no).

Question 5: Why would it be so hard to sink human ships? Salvaging them, yes, I can see that being difficult, but why is sinking them so hard? All you'd need to do would be to make contact with a large whale--say a sperm whale, for example--and you can kiss that human ship good-bye. No more effort need be expended than the effort required to persuade the sperm whale that following your suggestion is going to be worth the headache it will give him. And yes, I know that a whale could sink any ship the humans might be building, because in the 1800s, sperm whales would sometimes notice American whalers...and when they did, they usually sank the whaling ship. Oddly enough, they generally ignored the small boats dispatched to collect the whales. They just sank the whaling ship, and left the small boats to navigate 1500+ miles back to shore. Which very few of them ever did. I can only imagine what sea serpents, kraken, or other sea monsters would let an orc shaman achieve.
Honestly, if you're looking for a method of sinking a ship that would require a magic-user's entire effort, I would expect you to use a whirlpool, or a hurricane. Either of which sounds more like what humans would do than what a nature-oriented orc shaman would use.
And...no. No matter how you sink a wooden ship, there's not going to be much left to salvage. Sorry. But since wood floats, anything that renders a wood ship unusable to its original crew is likely going to leave it unusable to any crew, ever. This is why it is so relatively unusual to find a wooden shipwreck on the bottom of the ocean. Metal shipwrecks are much more likely to be found than wooden ones, for the simple reason that it's so bloody hard to sink a wooden ship.

Perhaps I talk to much

I think I may have buried our host in text. Um...sorry about that?

Still alive!

Question 1: The world of Arolius (thus revealed) from bottom to top goes like this.

The bottom of the map is covered by the stretch of the Southern mountains which go all the way along to a western coastline. On top of this, there’s the Embervine Forest which stretches along most of the northern part of the mountains and gives way a little bit to one of the kingdoms in the East. The western side of Embervine also has a coastline coming up from the mountains. On top of Embervine are two of the human kingdoms.

One of these (the eastern one) is called Uldrin and I think the other is yet to be named. Uldrin was and certainly has the potential to again be a fairly prosperous kingdom. It has a border to the west with the ocean coming up from Embervine. It also has the largest border with Embervine, and is the closest access to the orc outpost. In the east it borders with the second of the southern kingdoms, and the central imperial realm itself.

The second of the southern kingdoms has near direct access to the western stretch of the southern mountains, and also has a smaller border with Embervine. This kingdom has some possible contact with the orcs, but they don’t interact much. It’s also full of large lakes, with a number of rivers and swamps. The swamps seem to have been growing for the past several years, and the expanding swamplands are difficult to navigate or to grow anything on. This is part of the reason this kingdom is in somewhat more dire straits than the rest right now. Again, this kingdom also has a border with the Imperial realm to the northeast. It has a western border with a mysterious desert and an area of badlands.

There is a civilization across this desert, but it’s far away and doesn’t usually tend to bother with most of the empire. Sometimes its citizens do use the few trade routes, and they usually choose to enter the realms through the south-western kingdom when they do.

Some of the badlands go up into the north-western kingdom, which stretches along most of the western side of the empire. It has a smaller border with the northern mountains than the other two northern kingdoms and as a result it usually fares much better. Haven’t really thought that much about this one yet. It has a south-eastern border with the imperial realm, the desert to the west, and the northern mountains to the north.

The central northern kingdom is the one that takes the most of a beating from the war. It’s lost about a quarter of its lands to the demons, and it’s not doing well at all. Its people are some of the best fighters in the empire, but they rely heavily on the imperial realm itself to sustain their efforts through supply routes and imperial logistical support. Without the Empire to prop it up, this kingdom would be doomed within months.

Then back to the coast on the north-eastern front, the north-eastern kingdom has most of the eastern coastline until its border with Uldrin. Obviously, the imperial realm is to the south-west with Uldrin to the south. To the north-east of this kingdom there’s actually the tainted forest where the elves used to live, and this forest has its own access to the coast. It’s also severely haunted, but for some reason the demons don’t tend to attack through it all that much. It’s believed that whatever the demons had to do to get rid of the elves, it also reflects on them. Then, to the northwest there are some lost lands and then the northern mountains themselves. The northern mountains stretch across the top of the map, from the coast to the beginnings of the desert.

Both mountain stretches were where the dragons used to live and they’re not really naturally occurring. Dragons were keepers of nature in a way, but they were almost all prideful and the height of a dragon’s mountain home was a symbol of his power and status amongst his kin. The dragons have long since departed the world, but their use of their own magic linked in with the land has made the northern and southern mountains damn-near impassable in their absence. Even the few orc shamans who have managed to mount a Wyvern big enough to ride have said that the mountains are treacherous even with a winged mount. They’re also physically and magically unstable, and many of them are riddled with lesser traps that the dragons left to protect their treasure hordes.

So for the moment there’s no going further north or further south. At the time of TMD it’s also unfeasible to start up expeditions across the desert, and the demons let some seriously messed up shit into the ocean in terms of sea monsters.

Question 2: A single human kingdom is roughly the size of France or Spain + Portugal, with the imperial realm being about the size of England.

Question 3: The north and south mountain ranges don’t connect, although there are lesser passable mountains and hilly land that go south between the north-western kingdom and the desert and badlands. They just don’t go all the way south to connect with the southern mountain range.

Also, I’ve been going back through TMD and I’m not sure where I said that the southern tribe never existed until the northerners emigrated south. The closest I can find is this:

Gregory had finally worked up the courage to ask about the black orcs and learned that they had been splintered from the southern orcs long ago. A group of demons had once offered Grolfir's people unimaginable strength in exchange for their service and many had accepted. Those who refused fled south and made their home in the mountains there.

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That might be a little bit vague but it’s all I’ve got so far. It’s not exactly as clear as I’d like but it supports what I’ve said before. The orcs of the north and south splintered and those who refused to join the north fled and made their home with their southern tribe. I can obviously see how you were confused by this, and the tribe fleeing south might have been part of my original plan (I can’t remember). Still, it hardly needs a re-write from where I’m going. Are there any instances of me contradicting what I’ve said here in the text that you can think of? Just asking cuz I might need to go back and start re-editing.

I’m also fine with the current situation of the orcs as I see it. It’s not that you don’t have some good ideas here, but I keep most of this stuff in my head and if it needs shuffling around in there then it better have a damn good reason related to the story. So far I’m happy with the history if the split between the northern and southern tribes. Although I do like your thought that orc culture played a part in their downfall and I may fold that into the story somewhere down the line. So long as you say it’s free! I don’t want you suing me for idea snatching. I don’t see that it needs a mythical element to it though, and I feel that having orcs fall to demons just because of the way they are says more. They hold honour, glory and strength as prized traits and it’s good to see some drawbacks to that idea.

Oh, and humans were once allowed to prove themselves and own property in orc society. Few did, since it involved going through the provings, which is certainly not for everyone and has a much higher chance of death and injury with humans than it does with orcs. Still, there were some humans that were considered to be “true orcs” and were a part of that society. The betrayal was started when some of these humans started trying to sell their orc slaves to other humans, and attempted to seize power in the Embervine Forest. This drew both southern kingdoms and the northern kingdom into a war with the orcs, who immediately renounced all human rights in their society upon hearing the news. Ever since then, no orc has been allowed to openly challenge a human, and no human has been allowed to enter the provings.

The human gods and the dragons are also not completely separate entities that owing allegiance to one completely bans you from getting into the magical power structures of the other. All magic on Arolius comes from the same source except for demonic magic, which is drawn from a different dimension.

Again, there are other reasons that Gregory has been accepted amongst the orcs enough to be allowed a proving, but those are spoilery.

Orcs also don’t serve the dragons in the same way you seem to think they do. They believe themselves to have been blessed by a dragon in the first age of the world. They also believe that dragons were once the keepers of the natural world, and enormous sources of pure magical power. They’re also quite clearly not around anymore. No one has seen a dragon or felt their energies for over a thousand years. The orcs also believe that the dragon that blessed them didn’t rule them. It was more like a friend and quiet patron of their people. So the idea of going about serving the dragons isn’t really the point. Orc religion is more of a quieter thank you to their lost friend, and about appreciating the natural world that the dragons gave them.

Gregory has also never worn the ring that brought him, Janette and Freddie to Arolius. Janette was the one who put it on to take them there, Freddie wore it and was immediately immolated, but Gregory hasn’t put it on yet.

Question 4: The army in the north does indeed number in the millions. The entire border with the Forsaken Lands and the northern mountains needs an active army on the lines. That spans three of the northern realms. The huge percentage of the population aren’t all soldiers. Plenty are women conscripted for logistical tasks. The empire isn’t massively forward thinking when it comes to gender relations, and a lot of the support structure is made up of women recruits. The front lines are comprised of a massive peasant army which, as you’ve surmised, is in a truly desperate situation. Behind these fronts are more traditional medieval armies based in a series of forts along the front. These are signalled immediately when the north attacks to go and relieve the peasants. All that the main portion of the army needs to do is hold whilst the real fighters arrive, and this they mostly manage to do. They’re given a spear, a shield and not much more.

The entire empire has been to an extent defined by the steady growth of the northern war for about a hundred years or so. Who should have power, who should get to live comfortably, who should get a say in what? These matters are what causes the imperial lords to sharpen their knives, but all of them agree that the northern war is necessary. It’s not even debated. The only comparable real-world event that would compare is World War 1. Even then, soldiers were fighting to avoid being conquered, not to be completely and utterly destroyed.

Finally on this point, although magic in this world is fading, it isn’t completely dead yet. The earth still speaks, even to humans. Food is always relatively easy to grow and harvest, and although starvation is sometimes a problem, and it takes a major idiot in power for a human settlement to go hungry. This gives the empire the boost it needs to keep food supplies in check with demand. Plus, quite a few conscripts are sometimes brought up to help out during the harvest. Additional supplies have been raised through the time it’s taken for the demons to get as far as they have. They weren’t always as powerful in moving south, and the forces in the north weren’t immediately called into service in one huge chunk. The expansion happened over time, as the demonic power grew and expanded out from the northern mountains.

The large conscription is also a necessity to place the emperor in direct charge of the military portion of the populace. This allows imperial generals to move their troops and their supply routes as they need to without going fifteen rounds over it with the lord of wherever he happens to be at the time. Imperial conscripts can also move freely throughout the land and don’t get hindered in doing their duties by crossing borders with other imperial realms or other lords territories.

Even so, the human empire is now on the verge of collapse. They don’t have the fighting men to send north any more. Plenty of towns and villages are largely abandoned. Also, the continual fade of magic has put a strain on the supply chain.

Question 5: Oddly enough, the fauna of the sea don’t seem to bother much with orc shamans. They can make contact, but they’re largely indifferent to what the surface-dwellers have to say. Some of the elder shamans could perhaps have influenced a whale in the same way that they might influence a Wyvern. Those elders are too few and far between to be relied upon, however. The shamans instead used their connection with the inherent magics of the world to will the ocean to do their bidding. They would usually mix the air above the ship with the water below until the ocean steadily swallowed it whole.

Oh, and you didn’t text-squish me. I’d just been busy!

Lien_Geller said:

Question 1: The world of Arolius (thus revealed) from bottom to top goes like this.

The bottom of the map is covered by the stretch of the Southern mountains which go all the way along to a western coastline. On top of this, there’s the Embervine Forest which stretches along most of the northern part of the mountains and gives way a little bit to one of the kingdoms in the East. The western side of Embervine also has a coastline coming up from the mountains. On top of Embervine are two of the human kingdoms.

Click to expand...

Okay--so we're talking something shaped a lot more like Hyboria or Middle Earth than anything on Earth today. Or China, if my directions are messed up. Which they well might be. Either way, cool. Good to know.

Lien_Geller said:

The second of the southern kingdoms has near direct access to the western stretch of the southern mountains, and also has a smaller border with Embervine. This kingdom has some possible contact with the orcs, but they don’t interact much. It’s also full of large lakes, with a number of rivers and swamps. The swamps seem to have been growing for the past several years, and the expanding swamplands are difficult to navigate or to grow anything on. This is part of the reason this kingdom is in somewhat more dire straits than the rest right now. Again, this kingdom also has a border with the Imperial realm to the northeast. It has a western border with a mysterious desert and an area of badlands.

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This is...really unusual, and, on Earth, would signify a major and sudden tectonic shift--heavy rainfall usually requires mountains, and the rapid spread of swamps generally indicates lots of water draining into a region with no way out. On the minus side, this would, as you have said, result in a fair degree of food pressure. On the plus side, swamps are VERY hard to invade, and are traditionally one of the places refugees go to be safe (this is how the city of Venice was founded). This means that the question does arise--is this kingdom in dire straits because of loss of population, or because all of its agricultural land is getting drowned by the sudden influx of water just as the population starts to skyrocket from incoming refugees from the northern kingdoms/Empire? And where is all this water coming from? Is it coming from traditional rivers, that are simply being blocked from delivering their waters any further on, or is it actually being diverted from somewhere else? Either is worrisome, but which is which may depend on the demons themselves....

Lien_Geller said:

There is a civilization across this desert, but it’s far away and doesn’t usually tend to bother with most of the empire. Sometimes its citizens do use the few trade routes, and they usually choose to enter the realms through the south-western kingdom when they do.

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This would suggest two things: first, that there are likely other civilizations on the other side of the southern mountains (this would likely be why the trade routes went to the south, and not to the north, where there is (traditionally) more precipitation, and secondly, that the easternmost civilization is fairly isolated--much like China. If there are southern peoples besides the ones mentioned here, it would also explain why there was enough shipping (and enough sailors) for the northern orc refugees to make it to the south--there could well have been a thriving seaborne trade around the southern mountains before the demons showed up and screwed up sea travel for everybody, but now that the demons have screwed up the ocean, the humans and the orcs here are on their own. Presumably, after these guys fall, the demons intend to strike out to the east, and lay waste to everybody by the Great Central Desert, and then move out from there....

Lien_Geller said:

Some of the badlands go up into the north-western kingdom, which stretches along most of the western side of the empire. It has a smaller border with the northern mountains than the other two northern kingdoms and as a result it usually fares much better. Haven’t really thought that much about this one yet. It has a south-eastern border with the imperial realm, the desert to the west, and the northern mountains to the north.

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This would likely imply a steppe kingdom, with a population that relies more on herding than farming--such people tend to do better in areas that border on (but aren't quite) deserts. Depending on whether they raise sheep or cows, the desert could be advancing, or staying steady...or, perhaps, they raise something else entirely, that isn't so stupid it eats the grass down to the roots, but doesn't require as much range as cows. This would also explain why they are in relatively good shape (along with the smaller border)--they can move their livelihood away from the combat zone, which means that, as long as the demons don't take any towns, they can afford to surrender a lot of land...for the time being, anyway.

Lien_Geller said:

The central northern kingdom is the one that takes the most of a beating from the war. It’s lost about a quarter of its lands to the demons, and it’s not doing well at all. Its people are some of the best fighters in the empire, but they rely heavily on the imperial realm itself to sustain their efforts through supply routes and imperial logistical support. Without the Empire to prop it up, this kingdom would be doomed within months.

Then back to the coast on the north-eastern front, the north-eastern kingdom has most of the eastern coastline until its border with Uldrin. Obviously, the imperial realm is to the south-west with Uldrin to the south. To the north-east of this kingdom there’s actually the tainted forest where the elves used to live, and this forest has its own access to the coast. It’s also severely haunted, but for some reason the demons don’t tend to attack through it all that much. It’s believed that whatever the demons had to do to get rid of the elves, it also reflects on them. Then, to the northwest there are some lost lands and then the northern mountains themselves. The northern mountains stretch across the top of the map, from the coast to the beginnings of the desert.

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Or maybe the elves did something themselves, and it's basically shut the entire forest off from everybody. Both are very real options--it just depends on the character of the elves. Which, judging from the orcs' reactions, may well be sufficiently selfish to have them just say "screw the world, as long as we're safe, it's all good." How (if at all) this would impact the story, I have no idea.

Lien_Geller said:

Question 2: A single human kingdom is roughly the size of France or Spain + Portugal, with the imperial realm being about the size of England.

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Okay, then. Population figures (for the Medieval period) might give us some idea of how many people the Empire has at its disposal. These numbers are taken from out best guess as to the population of various pieces of Europe at about the fall of the Western Roman Empire, which means that they were about half to a third of what they'd been just two hundred years earlier. This is actually not the low point, population-wise--even after the fall of Rome, Europe's population continued to decline throughout the Dark Ages, and only began to really recover with the rise of the Frankish Empire--what would eventually become France.

Medieval France: 5 million people
British Isles (including England): 0.5 million
Spain/Portugal: 4 million
Germany/Scandinavia: 3.5 million
Hungary/Balkans: 5.5 million
Italy: 4 million

In other words, supposing a population closer to Germany or Spain and Portugal than France, I'd guess each of the kingdoms has an average of about 3-4 million people, with...call it 4-5 million in the Imperial province. Since that's about the same level of population decline as you saw in the final stages of the Western Roman Empire, those numbers SHOULD be pretty accurate (although they'll vary from kingdom to kingdom). Since you've still got a central Empire that rules the rest, then you're not going see quite the same mass loss of knowledge, life, property, etc that you saw after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. Still, there's been a huge amount of loss, and most of the Humans' Empire outside of Udrin and perhaps a few other areas would likely be feeling the end looming above them--they just don't have the people to keep fighting for much longer, even with a measly 5-6% conscription rate, and the rousting of the local peasant militias for emergencies (which are more or less the normal state of affairs by now, but that's beside the point). Still, even now, even after half to two-thirds of the of the human population (or local human population, anyway) has fallen to the black orcs and/or their demon masters, the Empire would still have something like 20-26 million people, which gives you from 1,000,000 to 1,500,000 troops. This is actually about in line with what the Romans Empire maintained under Constantine, which gave the Romans enough manpower to fortify and man the entire border of their Empire from Belgium to modern-day Jordan, with powerful reserve forces to handle any breaches in the fortified lines. Since I'm assuming that the Human Empire has a shorter northern border than the Romans northern and eastern borders, one to one and a half million troops would actually be...yeah, that should actually be enough to fight the war, and give the impression of a high degree of military pressure, AND be small enough to justify calling out the peasants (who die faster than the regulars, because they lack the equipment, training, or the respect/understanding of their commanders) at least several times a year. Given that these ARE late Roman equivalents, this is probably all that you could realistically support in terms of conscription outside of the northern kingdom--one of the things that let the European population recover was the introduction of new farming and manufacturing methods (in this universe we'd be talking magical, but on Earth they were more technological) that allowed people to be freed from the shackles of farm life to enlist and basically start forcing the invaders back. Without the military pressure--because the invaders were being driven back so they couldn't attack Europe's heartlands...and thus couldn't butcher the civilians working the fields. This marked a reversal of the trends of the last six hundred plus years, meaning that the population began to recover for the first time in many, many, many centuries.

Lien_Geller said:

That might be a little bit vague but it’s all I’ve got so far. It’s not exactly as clear as I’d like but it supports what I’ve said before. The orcs of the north and south splintered and those who refused to join the north fled and made their home with their southern tribe. I can obviously see how you were confused by this, and the tribe fleeing south might have been part of my original plan (I can’t remember). Still, it hardly needs a re-write from where I’m going. Are there any instances of me contradicting what I’ve said here in the text that you can think of? Just asking cuz I might need to go back and start re-editing.

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I don't think so--most of my confusion has come about from the history. Obviously, given how strenuously I've been arguing the point, I think you can do more with the idea of the orcs in the southern jungles as refugees than as natives--or even as most of them being natives--but that's up to you. The fact that I'm here to argue certainly suggests that you've been doing okay so far, so...I've said my bit, and now I'll shut up on the subject.
And...nah, I'm not going to sue you for idea snatching. Of course, that's not quite the same thing as it being completely free--eventually, I may need to solicit ideas or nitpicks for some of my own (non-erotic) work...and hey, look, I know this bright, creative guy who is good at that sort of thing. Hey. What a coincidence. Who could have imagined...?

Lien_Geller said:

Orcs also don’t serve the dragons in the same way you seem to think they do. They believe themselves to have been blessed by a dragon in the first age of the world. They also believe that dragons were once the keepers of the natural world, and enormous sources of pure magical power. They’re also quite clearly not around anymore. No one has seen a dragon or felt their energies for over a thousand years. The orcs also believe that the dragon that blessed them didn’t rule them. It was more like a friend and quiet patron of their people. So the idea of going about serving the dragons isn’t really the point. Orc religion is more of a quieter thank you to their lost friend, and about appreciating the natural world that the dragons gave them.

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Damn. And that was such a cool idea, too--it would be unusual, have a great deal of fun and interesting implications for the orcs and the humans as a whole, and it would let you slide any number of quiet analogies into the story. Ah, well.

Lien_Geller said:

Question 4: The army in the north does indeed number in the millions. The entire border with the Forsaken Lands and the northern mountains needs an active army on the lines. That spans three of the northern realms. The huge percentage of the population aren’t all soldiers. Plenty are women conscripted for logistical tasks. The empire isn’t massively forward thinking when it comes to gender relations, and a lot of the support structure is made up of women recruits. The front lines are comprised of a massive peasant army which, as you’ve surmised, is in a truly desperate situation. Behind these fronts are more traditional medieval armies based in a series of forts along the front. These are signalled immediately when the north attacks to go and relieve the peasants. All that the main portion of the army needs to do is hold whilst the real fighters arrive, and this they mostly manage to do. They’re given a spear, a shield and not much more.

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I would guess a spear, a shield, some basic training, and whatever they can scrounge. These being humans--toughest of the toughest, meanest of the mean, and, besides all that, not stupid enough to think that they can pick a fight with sixty times their numbers and walk away from it--they probably take steps to acquire simple armor and/or melee weapons, such as leather or quilted armor, maces, axes, etc. This would give them a chance to survive if the formation gets broken, and would likely be the difference between life or death in such circumstances. The conscripts likely fight as medium infantry--unable to destroy the enemy in a charge, perhaps, but perfectly capable of holding the line against just about all comers--and are probably trained to form a wall of spear-points, forming either a circle or a square when attacked. This would let two ranks fight at once, as well as let soldiers cover each other with their shields, letting the troops engage and hold surprisingly large numbers of enemies at bay without taking major casualties (demons are another matter). Since longsword or axe-armed troops generally need about five feet between each soldier to fight effectively, this will likely give the conscripts an effective advantage in numbers against any enemy they form up against, and let the conscripts fight surprisingly effectively against small raiding parties, particularly when they are the ones mounting the attack. They are likely supported by auxiliary light cavalry (likely melee, but who's counting), which acts as scouts, flankers, and pursuit troops. The light cavalry is likely armed with spears, possibly shields, and probably long swords, but may or may not be given armor, and their horses most certainly are not armored, or all that massive. Alternatively, the light cavalry might be issued horsebows and/or javelins, which would let them function as mounted skirmishers and scouts, although they would be less effective pursuit units if that were the case, although this is not necessarily true--the Huns famously solved this problem by inventing the lasso, making their invasion of Europe the first and only time in history in which cowboy diplomacy bore immediate and undeniable results. The light cavalry is likely either peasant volunteers, or just straight up peasant militia that is provided by the more prosperous towns, villages, and farms...or, alternatively, it might be provided by the scattered communities of elves who got caught out or escaped when their homeland suddenly turned into a haunted forest. In the latter case, the light cavalry troopers are almost definitely reserved for scouting details only--any formal light cavalry would come from the Southern kingdoms, and be brought up only emergencies (because it can move pretty impressively fast, and would be ideal for buying time for the heavies to get there and solve the problem). Most patrols are likely accompanied by a human mage or priest (the junior ones, of course), who can essentially scan for hostile magic, counter some of the more commonly dangerous combat spells (thus preventing fireballs and lightning bolts from destroying the tight formations), and communicate back to the fort what if anything has been found, destroyed, escaped from, or seized.
The conscripts (and light cavalry) are probably based in or at the forts, and patrol forward two days' journey or so (about twenty to thirty miles) into the areas that have been lost to black orc contamination and/or blasphemous spells. Patrols are likely for right about a week at a time, and are carried out in tandem with several other groups sweeping out from the fort, generally in groups of twenty to thirty, with mounted scouts, who range forward anywhere from ten to twenty miles further ahead, providing the bulk of the actual looking for enemies, while the conscripts themselves are likely there more to destroy any small parties found than to actually find, track, and hunt any enemy raiding parties. This (in theory) allows the patrols to engage and head off any smaller black orc raiding parties before they can actually strike the more vulnerable peasant villages that are sheltering behind the line of forts, while at the same time allowing larger attacks to be identified and (subtly) redirected into more advantageous routes, ensuring that the enemy does not immediately strike yet-unspoiled farmland. The black orcs know this, of course, and know that the patrols are there, and would thus frequently ignore the farmlands altogether, particularly if they don't have a demon or a corrupted shaman with them, and instead just focus on ambushing the patrols and/or scouts (the latter option being preferred, but vastly more difficult). Such ambushes have to be careful, however--the human patrols might not be that big, but a number of human patrols--particularly the ones who are in areas that have lots of black orc activity--would be reinforced by war packs of southern orcs, who are bigger, stronger, and more dangerous in a chaotic melee than the human conscripts that make up most of the patrols. This is probably the primary role the orcs play in the humans' war effort, as it would most closely fit your description of the humans' performance versus the orcs'--the human soldiers supporting the orcs would likely do their best, but the simple fact is that they aren't trained or equipped to give the orcs the support the orcs need.
Due to the numbers of black orcs, ambushes, both upon human/orc patrols, and by human/orc patrols, are probably incredibly frequent, and there would likely be nowhere aside from within the fort that could ever truly be called safe from black orc attack. The constant tension would wear badly, and the fact that the humans on the frontier are much less able to counter things like demonic attacks, and infernal magics directed at patrols and the forts themselves would make this something that the orcs would describe as being...well, as being pretty hellish. Certainly exhausting, bloody, brutal, terrifying, and, often, sickening--the transformation of the terrain that the black orcs have overrun into something closer to the infernal realms would mean that the black orcs, with their higher population and the lower arability of their land, would be willing to eat pretty much anything, especially if it's got meat on it...including humans, orcs, demons, and each other (although I doubt the opportunity to eat demons comes along very often). Sometimes, if they're feeling generous, they'll kill their prey first...but a lot of times, they won't even bother, simply settling for wounding their unfortunate victim enough so that they can't fight back, and then dragging him/her off to their lair to be eaten. When this happens, it would be up to the patrols to go into the black orcs' lairs and retrieve the victim (or what's left of them), and that means that the bulk of the actual charge would fall upon the orcs. The black orcs, whose magic is not only still working fine, but is actually getting stronger, would likely use magical and physical traps to defend their lair, and would probably frequently prefer to lair underground, to avoid becoming prey for even bigger and nastier creatures than they--and, of course, tunnel-fighting is always just about as nasty as it gets, particularly when your allies are more or less completely blind underground, and are thus forced to rely upon you to investigate, find traps, and flush out any survivors.
Larger forces of black orcs--those groups meant for major raids or even outright invasions, of which each sector would see several every year--would likely be countered by the reserve forces of heavy human cavalry and heavy infantry, supported by massed peasant levies of archers, light infantry, and skirmishers, whose main job would be to identify and (hopefully) kill any black orc or demonic magic users. Casualties amongst these skirmishers would likely be very heavy, as humans are probably more adjusted to formation fighting than skirmishing (that's elf-work, that is), but would be effective enough to justify the losses. Heavy infantry would likely still fight in a manner fairly similar to the Roman Legions, just as the late WRE did, but with one exception--a number of troops would be armed with heavy iron darts instead of javelins. These darts would travel farther, hit harder, and be more accurate...and could be carried in greater numbers. The catch is that they're also a lot more expensive to make, and so can only be used to break a charge or against critical targets. In these large battle situations, the conscripts would either hold the flanks--with orc support--or be used to pin the black orcs in place while the heavy units encircled and annihilated the attackers. This would be something done pretty much without the help of the orcs, because, frankly, it's not the orcs' kind of fight--the orcs charge, they don't close ranks and wait to receive a charge. The reserve forces are likely better equipped, with swords/axes as their primary weapons, heavy armor--likely mail or lamellar--heavy shields, and superb training. Cavalry likely fight as heavy lancers, but not as the traditional knights we think of them--such warriors were fabulously expensive to produce, both in terms of training, and in terms of equipment, which meant that most large armies preferred to use professional warriors who didn't start training at age eight. On the flip side, their likely are a few full-fledged knights, or at least cataphracts, simply because that humongously unstoppable lance charge would be one of the only ways to put an equally humongously unstoppable demon in its place and convince it to be a good demon. If there are knights, they are probably few in number, and form the absolute elite of the humans' (possibly even the allies') army--even the southern orcs would respect these guys because they'd be the next best thing to unstoppable once they got started. When these guys charge, especially when they charge en masse, it will make the earth shake beneath their mounts' hooves, and the black orcs will almost assuredly scatter immediately, especially if there is not a demon or a major shaman/chief to keep them in line...or they'll immediately summon the demon(s) they brought for just such an occasion, in which case, they'll hope that the combination of the weakening magic, and the unexpected appearance of a frigging demon will be enough to slow the knights down (slowing the knights down is all they really need--once the horses are vulnerable, the knights themselves become vulnerable). Most of the human heavy cavalry is likely fighting as heavy lancers, which means that they will attempt to flank the enemy when possible, and then slam home a powerful charge to a weakened section of the line (or a flank) that either surrounds the black orcs and prevents them from taking full advantage of their massive numbers effectively, or simply rips a hole through the center of their lines, and allows the more disciplined human heavy infantry to isolate the black orc contingents, and defeat them in detail. Knights will rarely bother with a flanking charge, as they will be deployed against a specific target only--they're too rare, and too expensive, to be used in any other way.
As for magic? With the weakening of magic, and the humans' battle magic (and that of the orcs) becoming less effective, you'd be seeing two responses, both of which would have their supporters and their detractors. The first response would be to see many human and orc magic-users getting more and more desperate and extreme--necromancy and other death-related magics might be starting to emerge among one or both races, along with the use of blood sacrifice to power particular spells, pacts being struck with dark gods (or godlike beings) regardless of future consequences, or other, even more desperate methods being used. Whether this response is successful or not, the majority of both races will abhor it, and try to destroy anybody who follows this path to victory...and the demons, more than likely, will be all to happy to provide covert technical and thaumaturgical assistance. The other method--and the one that the humans' empire would be most likely to endorse--would be to create weapons like these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpio_(weapon)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plumbata
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire
and many others.
It is important to note that all of these weapons are surprisingly difficult to make (or, at least, to make in quantity), and that, with strong magic, there is little to no reason to try--magic could do most of what these weapons could do, and more. Plus, if magic did it, it would be cheaper. But with the magic fading, and the demons' magic growing stronger, that puts a different complexion on things.
I should note that, while the first option--turning towards ever more extreme and darker powers in an effort to find some type of magic that is not affected by the weakening of magic in general--would be more favored by the human, orc, and remaining elf magic users, because it's something they can do. Human magic users, in particular, would be feeling pretty desperate by now, since a more chaotic society already contains much more in the way of extremes than does a more stable, nature-oriented society such as the orcs. This includes more in the way of extreme good...but it also includes more in the nature of extreme evil, and some humans, increasingly, are likely to be on their way to becoming even more evil (not to mention considerably less intelligent) than the very demons who have triggered this war. Whether Gregory runs into any of those humans...well, that I leave up to you.
The second option, on the other hand, is likely to be more favored by the Empire's artisans and many of the Empire's more technically literate peasants. A technological solution is something that they can do, and which most magicians, of whatever kind, cannot--magicians, by their very nature, tend to focus more upon magic than upon devices. A handful of magicians are probably exceptions to this rule...but those are likely to be considered by their peers eccentric to the extreme (although quite smart), and are often ignored. On the flip side, however, those more radical magicians are most likely to be the ones pressing to make sure that any new technologies that have emerged (possibly starting with something as simple as stirrups) be kept secret until such time as they can be deployed decisively and en masse. Given the critical military situation of the Empire, this might be a good reason why the Emperor's son--who HAS to be ready to lead the Empire in war--might not feel as qualified to lead an empire at war as he should, since his focus has been more upon the development and deployment of decisive technologies that will give human troops a significant edge over the black orcs--enough of an edge to let the humans push the black orcs back, and possibly even look at healing the blighted frontier lands (if this could be accomplished, he would know, it would transform an ultimately futile defensive war into something that could be won...eventually).

Regardless of whether or not you use it--that is a strategy that would address your need to fortify the border, and not let any demons in, result in a steadily declining population, and would fit very well with (because it is almost directly copied from) your statement that this is largely taken from the latter period of the Western Roman Empire. Realistically, this is something that would allow the humans to maintain war along a thousand mile front without exactly the kind of civil war that you have stated is unlikely to happen. Realistically, it may be the only way for an Empire of that time period to accomplish such a feat, since there is no practical way to counter an army massing on your borders without an equal-sized army, and the sheer money and transport factors mean that even today, a seventy percent conscription figure is simply an unattainable goal...and many of the things we can do today would certainly qualify as magical by the standards of the late WRE. Of course, the problem with this system is that you are giving up any possibility of serious offensive action until you can relieve enough pressure on your borders to pull one of those reserve armies from its current position to launch an attack...and, as the American Confederacy discovered, a purely defensive war is nothing more than a very slow method of committing suicide. The Romans were able to defend themselves for about a century and a half after the Constantinian reforms, but once those border forts finally failed, they failed all at once, and the Empire effectively collapsed. Plus, the seal isn't air-tight, and can't do much about those groups who evade the scouts and escape the patrols' notice--those groups will usually have to be hit on the way back out, when they are necessarily making a much bigger racket than they made on the way in (this is actually a standard technique for dealing with such raiders). Problem is...if you hit them after the raid, the damage is already done--all you can achieve is simple retaliation, instead of actual prevention. In other words, raids still happen, and are slowly driving the people out of the borderlands. The forts have likely kept the bulk of the black orcs out, there are likely large areas of land behind the forts that are effectively uninhabitable--they're still not completely terraformed into something like the demons' infernal homes, but they're definitely not capable of sustaining human or orc life for long either. These are the places that are poisoned and corrupted but not yet completely destroyed by the black orcs' shamans and their masters--waters fouled, fields and/or towns left lifeless and abandoned, etc. Even the plants and animals would feel twisted and hateful. Something that somebody like Gregory might not notice at first, but which would bring home the degree to which things are fucked up: there would be no grass in these lands. No grass, no wheat, oats, barley, or...well, basically anything. Just about every kind of normal ground cover would be gone, and without them, there would be no mice, rats, rabbits, snakes, or other related animals. Empty patches of forest would remain empty, until things like nettles, vines, and noxious plants could grow up into the empty space--a process that could take years, easily. Birds would be few and far between, and while animals like deer, coyotes, and wolves might remain, they would be intensely wary--without the grassy undergrowth, most ground cover would be things like nettles, vines, brambles, and shrubs, which would drastically limit a deer's escape options, and greatly curtail how far one could see, or how easily a creature like a wolf could track its prey. I would suspect that in such areas, it would not be uncommon for wolves to attack men (or orcs), as sheer hunger forces them to take whatever may be available. As one got closer to the forts themselves, one would start to see more signs of life, but even here, the population would clearly be struggling to survive--houses would be empty, and everybody, man and woman alike, would be carrying a weapon and/or armor. Farms would be fortified (the foundation of the original fortified manor system that would dominate medieval Europe), towns and even small villages would be surrounded by thick wood and earth walls, and most would also have moats/ditches, gatehouses, and guard towers. Quite a few of these towns would be easy to mistake for forts in their own right, and any river crossings or fords would be extremely heavily fortified and well defended, because these are the chokepoints through which reinforcements must march--a black orc raiding party that destroyed just a handful of bridges could delay or even completely prevent the arrival of reinforcements in response to a major attack, and rip the humans' defensive lines wide open even without the need for the arrival of ever more powerful demons and demon lords.

Even without such complications as the loss of bridges, roads, etc...well. So far, the fortified lines would have kept any major incursions out...but how long that can last would be anybody's guess even if the black orcs' masters weren't bringing ever more powerful monsters into Arolius. As it is? That depends on human ingenuity and adaptability...but the most probable answer is that the system will likely fail within the next five to ten years. And when it does, probably the entire northern kingdom will collapse before the situation can be stabilized...if it can be stabilized.

Lien_Geller said:

The large conscription is also a necessity to place the emperor in direct charge of the military portion of the populace. This allows imperial generals to move their troops and their supply routes as they need to without going fifteen rounds over it with the lord of wherever he happens to be at the time. Imperial conscripts can also move freely throughout the land and don’t get hindered in doing their duties by crossing borders with other imperial realms or other lords territories.

Even so, the human empire is now on the verge of collapse. They don’t have the fighting men to send north any more. Plenty of towns and villages are largely abandoned. Also, the continual fade of magic has put a strain on the supply chain.

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See above--this is actually pretty normal after a hundred years of war at even two or three percent beyond the sustainable conscription rate. The reality is that any lord, no matter how obstreperous they might feel, is unlikely to have the manpower to fight with an Imperial general (or even a regular Imperial officer)...and, besides, interfering would mean that the black orcs are getting closer, and that would be a BAD THING. Sabotage would be a problem, particularly from those humans who are secretly giving their allegiance to the demons (and there would be a few, because humans are both stupid, and arrogant like that), but lords putting up a fight just because they feel their ego is bruised would not be. It's one of the benefits of marching around with a 5,000 man legion at one's back.

Lien_Geller said:

Question 5: Oddly enough, the fauna of the sea don’t seem to bother much with orc shamans. They can make contact, but they’re largely indifferent to what the surface-dwellers have to say. Some of the elder shamans could perhaps have influenced a whale in the same way that they might influence a Wyvern. Those elders are too few and far between to be relied upon, however. The shamans instead used their connection with the inherent magics of the world to will the ocean to do their bidding. They would usually mix the air above the ship with the water below until the ocean steadily swallowed it whole.

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Incredibly enough, that will not sink a wooden ship unless it is, effectively, overloaded with cargo. Again--the reason why so few wooden shipwrecks have been found, compared to iron ships, isn't because the wood rots so fast (although that helps). The primary reason is because wooden ships are incredibly hard to sink a wooden ship without completely destroying the ship itself. Accomplishing this usually requires some pretty extensive stupidity on the part of both designers, and crew. And while those do happen, it's actually pretty rare. Capsizing a ship...that happens all the time. Smashing it in a storm...again, that happens pretty frequently. Ripping the bottom/side out? Fairly frequent. Seeing the ship sink because it got swamped? It works for metal ships, but wooden ones will still float (poorly) even then. One of the reasons a ram worked so well when it was first invented was because, if the ship was well braced, and hit the enemy ship from the side, it could literally smash an enemy ship in half, which was obviously the end of the fight for that ship and its crew.
What you can do to sink a ship like this is to use either an iceberg, or, alternatively, muck about with the local currents to create a whirlpool or a waterspout to simply smash the ship. Again...wooden ships float on their own, so there's not much you can do to sink a ship without destroying it.
This does bring up an interesting question, though--we know elves can make some really interesting potions, but...what other types of magic are there, and how do they work? ANd what is the difference between gods and dragons, so that worshipping the gods is not the same thing as worshipping the dragons?

Lien_Geller said:

Oh, and you didn’t text-squish me. I’d just been busy!

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VE VILL BURY YOU!

=P

Got a present for ya!

Welcome back!

As I said, the mountains aren’t naturally occurring. I also said there in the quote that you quoted that a large part of the kingdom has a border with the southern mountains. Plenty of water flows down there with no immediate outlet to the sea. Hence swamps and lakes. Though many of the swamp lands have recently been expanding at strange rates that aren’t exactly natural.

And no, there aren’t any known civilizations on the other side of the southern mountains. Ships that sail that way usually never returned. Also, the Great Central Desert is actually the Great Western Desert. Since it’s… to the west of the Empire and where everything’s happening. Again, I’m not interested in creating other civilizations beyond what I have because what I have is relevant to the story and what I don’t have isn’t.

Good food for thought with the north western kingdom, as I said I haven’t really figured them out much yet.

As for the Elves? You’ll have to wait and see what happened to them. Valise does have quite a big role to play there.

Cool beanz with the numbers there. Might refer to them later.

I also can’t start reforming my notions of dragons and what they mean to the story I’m afraid. As I’m sure you can guess, their mythology plays a pretty big effing role in The Missing Dragon. It’s not all that malleable.

Since you’ve obviously put a total shitload of effort into engaging me on this thread though, and if you’re not worried about spoilers for the story, then I’ll PM you if you want to know about dragons and elves. If you promise not to tell anyone. If you’d rather find out by reading the story though, then that’s cool. It’s how I’d rather everyone did. ^_^

Also, if you do need any help with anything of yours then I’d be happy to check it out for you and give you any thoughts I have on it. I figure I owe you some effort after this.

Back to the northern war then, and since this has been going on for a long time, the equipment on the front isn’t a total loss. It’s usually just old and most of the men on the front lines are wearing stuff that’s at least second hand. They do prefer to work in sheltron formations wherever possible, but these are usually static rows of spears since they don’t have the training or discipline of proper pikemen. Some of the captains on the battle line remedy this if they have the opportunity and the talent, but most men capable of training like that are promoted to the rear armies to do the “real” fighting.

The humans also can’t really patrol that deeply into the blighted lands. Their scouts are ineffective since they don’t have any connection to the blighted territory, and demon magic-wielders do. The scouts can usually work enough to get a warning out to the battle lines that they’re about to be attacked, but they can’t really go deep enough into enemy territory to be otherwise useful. It’s also not believed to be a good idea to train effective scouts since they’re the ones that tend to die the most. This is a real problem for the human armies, since they often don’t know when or where they’ll be attacked and are forced to maintain that huge battle line of men and fortifications rather than use their armies more effectively.

Light infantry and light cavalry are also not used much on the battlefields, since it’s difficult to out manoeuvre the massive swarms of the orc armies in any meaningful way. Black orcs also don’t tend to retreat unless they’re ordered to with the sound of a battle horn. So light infantry doesn’t have the harrying effect that it should. They just tend to get enveloped in the oncoming mass of black orcs.

The peasant armies do use fortifications, and they’re usually a lot better at this than they are at fighting. Sometimes wooden palisade walls are erected, but mostly they dig out trenches to fill with stakes and litter the field with traps. Most of a peasant soldier’s daily tasks involve doing this, and as I said, they have a very long battle line to cover. The traps and fortifications usually kill more of the enemy than the peasant armies manage to. I see it as a kind of medieval form of trench warfare.

The orc war packs are also almost completely split from the human chain of command. Given their history, orcs are ridiculously twitchy when it comes to giving humans any influence over them. They usually venture to wherever on the border they hear the fighting is at its worst. They also tend to hang around with the conscripts on the front lines rather than keeping back with the more elite troops. This leads to a number of issues, some good and some bad. It helps morale amongst the humans considerably whenever the orcs show up, given that their battlefield presence often saves a lot of human lives amongst the conscripts. It doesn’t quite have the same effect on the better troops, however. Many orcs see the human way of fighting as bordering on cowardice in hiding behind the conscripts. They also often flat-out refuse to follow orders that are given to them in battle by humans, particularly orders to retreat. They don’t work well at all with the human high command. Moreso, since the High Lord of Uldrin has been on the warpath in slandering orcs, many conscripts from that part of the empire cause problems between the orcs and the conscripts. This attitude is usually radically and violently adjusted either by seeing what the orcs do in battle, or by the southern orcs themselves if they hear the south-easterners insults.

In any case, the divide between humans and orcs up there isn’t as big as it is in Uldrin, but it’s still not good and often serves to hinder or trip-up military operations.

You’re also right in saying that human conscripts often can’t keep up with the orc war packs on the battlefield. That’s also a major issue that stunts the potential impact the green giants could be having up there. They can take ground well enough, but its no good if the humans can’t move forward to hold it in time.

The underground is also a place that’s kind of remarkable in the way it doesn’t seem to be an avenue of attack for the demons. It’s strange for creatures so obviously akin to darkness. Though any attempts by humans to start any significantly deep tunnels in the north to help the war have been met with nightmarish accounts of moving shadows down there. So both sides tend to stick close to the surface.

There is a considerable force of heavy cavalry and “medium” cavalry mostly kept in the reserve. These guys are very good at what they do, and they’re usually responsible for breaking black orc attacks (possibly in cooperation with the southern orcs if they’re available and so-inclined).

Seeing a genuine demon on the battlefield is a rare thing though. They don’t tend to risk their lives so lightly when they have plenty of cannon fodder for the thrashing. Recently there have been sightings of some horrendous giants appearing on the battle lines. Those things wouldn’t be taken down by cavalry. The demons do have other monsters that they’ve tested from time to time, brought from their home to bring plenty of terrors to life.

The withering of magic has also stopped the human mages from having much impact on the front lines. They can’t really operate much in battle before their reserves run out. As such they’re usually only committed as a support contingent to the main relief force. If the front lines receive problems of an innate magical nature then they do get deployed, but not en-masse and they’re not a standard part of any section of the front lines. Some magical items and warning devices can be found there, but many of the magically inclined are usually found keeping to themselves and working toward a way to bring magic back into the world. The empire’s reliance on magic is also showing in its decline. Technology hasn’t advanced as much as it could have, because magic was seen as the easier option in the past.

There has also been no way yet found to heal the lands of the demonic blight. The greatest of the orc shamans have tried and failed in the task of even cleaning up a little of the stuff. Once it’s set in, it seems to be permanent.

Also, good point about the boats. Wood floats! Duh!

Maybe the orcs would find it easier to capsize a ship and then steal the thing like that. They’d just have to tow it to land and smack on a new mast or two if it was needed. Anyhoo, this element of the story isn’t actually important in the story. Most of the northern orc shamans who once sailed the seas are now gone. Now there are only the monster-wranglers and there just aren’t any ships that can safely navigate the waters around Uldrin and the north-eastern kingdom. Maybe a few insane smugglers on much smaller boats, but nothing like there used to be before the sea was tainted.

As for the magic, the gods and the dragons… that ties into the mythology which is quite spoilery. Sorry! As I said, if you really wanna know then PM me and I’ll tell you but it does have major spoilers for the story if I do.

I have to say Lien, I am a huge fan of your series. I've been following it since it started and every chapter just gets me more hooked. You created the characters wonderfully and tied the relationships together so well! The storyline, where do I start? It is so in depth and flows so well, you could read it over a hundred times and not be sick of it. With everything in chapter 3, I am thoroughly looking forward to chapter 4. You keep writing and I'll keep reading ��

A huge fan, Redwarden

Redwarden, good news! Chapter 4 has been out for a while now. I dunno if you just got the chapters confused but if not then enjoy. Thanks for the support too!

Yeah, sorry about that. Meant to say chapter 5. Thoroughly looking forward to it ��. Especially looking forward to see how Greg deals with his next matches in the arena. Can't wait!!

I just wanna say,your story is great. The one thing I would actually like more about it is if it had a little less sex in it and more story. Thanks a lot. Hope the next installment will be out soon. Byeee!

Thanks very much for saying so!

love the series!

First of all thank you for writing such a great series. I reckon the amount of sex is just fine and if possible valise should start getting it on with the other girls so there's no jealousy involved. Plus it's more fun if it's 3 women and 1 guy than 2and 1 ;-) :-D

Just want to know how much progress you've done for ch5?

Again many thanks for entertaining us!

Thanks for the response!

I'm never going to say never on Valise having multiple partners for sexy-fun-time, but I don't think it'll be any time soon. She's not jealous at all of the other ladies in Greg's life though. She just prefers not to be in sexy situations with other women, that's all!

So far I haven't done much on the 5th chapter, since I've been working on a couple of other projects. It's not a complete non-starter or anything but I haven't made any major strides with it just yet. So don't look for the next installment any time soon, but it's definitely not been abandoned. I like to do a chapter of TMD and then try something different before going back to it.

Thanks again for the response, and I hope to have something for you to read soon!

Huge fan

Hey Lien long time fan of you, I first started reading your work back when you first started posting Aphrodisia and I fell in love with your writing style. Your writing holds me unlike almost anyone else on this site or in much of the world.

For some reason I have skipped some of your other works but recently picked up your Missing Dragon series and long story short I'm in love yet again. I eagerly await your next chapter or story because whatever you write I know I will be able to pick it up at a moments notice and come away completely satisfied. No pressure, your work proves that quality is defiantly something that takes time.

Now off to read everything else you've ever done!