Why Would We Legalize this Poison?

BotanyBoy said:

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Probably support government regulation over sex positions too don't ya??

Let me guess you have an article for that too??

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Of course!

We mandate the woman being on top, except when we're in the mood to be on the bottom, then doggy-style. You can pull our hair then, too, but there's a state licensing fee for that.

DawnODay said:

a woman

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What woman? I've already proven you're a man. Hell, I even unmasked your racist alt "joe".

DawnODay said:

Funny, the cited article directly addresses that.

Many libertarians and a growing number of conservatives argue that legalization is the “pro-freedom” position. Actually, the exact opposite is true. Marijuana use attacks, degrades, and impairs the very thing that allows us to act freely: our brains.

We can’t make free choices if we aren’t in control of ourselves. Someone who is under the influence of an intoxicating drug such as marijuana is subject to coercive forces that interfere with his decision-making. And let’s not forget the long-term effects of marijuana, which permanently inhibits the ability of the brain to properly function.

Human freedom is the product of order, both in ourselves and in society in general. This realization gave rise to the system of ordered liberty and natural law upon which our government is based.

This order is reflected in the human ability to make rational decisions. Choices that are not under the control of reason are not free, but random and chaotic. Since intoxicating drugs interfere with our ability to reason properly, they are the very antithesis of liberty.

The idea that marijuana can be justified by an appeal to freedom or liberty is self-defeating in the same way that drinking seawater to remedy thirst is counterproductive. It is a perversion of liberty that turns liberty against itself. So if you consider yourself a champion of freedom and liberty, then you should oppose marijuana legalization.​

T. Hsiao, 7 Arguments For Legalizing Marijuana That No One Should Believe, The Federalist (Mar. 9, 2019), citing T. Hsiao, The Libertarian Case for Drug Prohibition, Public Discourse (Jan. 28, 2018).

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You know, growing old does the same thing as what is being said MJ does.

R. Chatterjee, Daily Marijuana Use And Highly Potent Weed Linked To Psychosis, NPR (Mar. 19, 2019).

S. Charles, ER visits linked to marijuana rose at Colorado hospital after legalization, study finds, NBC (Mar. 26, 2019).

So much for the claims we always heard that legalization would not increase usage and would lead to more responsible use.

B. Abbott, Opioid Death Rate Rose Despite Medical-Marijuana Laws, Study Finds, Wall Street Journal (Jun. 10, 2019); R. Verbruggen, Legal Pot Won’t Control the Opioid Epidemic, National Review (Jun. 10, 2019).

DawnODay said:

B. Abbott, Opioid Death Rate Rose Despite Medical-Marijuana Laws, Study Finds, Wall Street Journal (Jun. 10, 2019); R. Verbruggen, Legal Pot Won’t Control the Opioid Epidemic, National Review (Jun. 10, 2019).

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I wonder if there is a reason why the human body does not have a gland that secretes tetrahydrocannabinol, maybe through evolution, extensive use and a million years from now our body will produce it. I can't see how a chemical that alters a state of being and produces a form of synthetic euphoria can be good for our health overall. Please spare me the your indignation over the use for specific ailments,that's not my point. I don't think it should be criminalized but I also don't think we should promote the use of it by adjusting our laws. I also believe as states ratify their laws our emergency rooms and medical facilities will bare the brunt. Spare me the alcohol comparison, that's just as bad. Using our laws towards alcohol to justify the use of pot is like comparing whether you want to drown in quicksand or in 10 feet of water. The jury is still out on the overall effects of pot on a society. Promoters who advocate the use are lying to you about it's long term effects. Pot is a proven gateway drug. Bill Bennett and his associates have done very in depth research and studies on the effects on teens as well as the overall populous and we ignore these studies at our peril. I'm not going to source all of Bill Bennett's research, look it up yourself. We have an opioids epidemic so let's promote more drugs?????

DawnODay said:

After marijuana use was legalized in Colorado in 2012, ER visits linked to cannabis use tripled over the next five years at one of the state's largest hospitals, according to a new analysis.​

S. Charles, ER visits linked to marijuana rose at Colorado hospital after legalization, study finds, NBC (Mar. 26, 2019).

So much for the claims we always heard that legalization would not increase usage and would lead to more responsible use.

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ER visits mean fuck all.

icanhelp1 said:

I wonder if there is a reason why the human body does not have a gland that secretes tetrahydrocannabinol, maybe through evolution, extensive use and a million years from now our body will produce it. I can't see how a chemical that alters a state of being and produces a form of synthetic euphoria can be good for our health overall. Please spare me the your indignation over the use for specific ailments,that's not my point. I don't think it should be criminalized but I also don't think we should promote the use of it by adjusting our laws. I also believe as states ratify their laws our emergency rooms and medical facilities will bare the brunt. Spare me the alcohol comparison, that's just as bad. Using our laws towards alcohol to justify the use of pot is like comparing whether you want to drown in quicksand or in 10 feet of water. The jury is still out on the overall effects of pot on a society. Promoters who advocate the use are lying to you about it's long term effects. Pot is a proven gateway drug. Bill Bennett and his associates have done very in depth research and studies on the effects on teens as well as the overall populous and we ignore these studies at our peril. I'm not going to source all of Bill Bennett's research, look it up yourself. We have an opioids epidemic so let's promote more drugs?????

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It's not a proven gateway drug and overall effect on a society have been well studied.

The shit's only be illegal for a few decades out of a 200,000+ human history of using it and just like with booze attempting to ban it has been far more expensive and destructive.

Opioid =/= cannabinoid.....trying to demonize cannabis for an opium problem is like trying to blame school shootings on drunk drivers, that is to say it's fuckin' absurd.

Bottom line is that much like with all the other shit the government tries to prohibit it CAN'T. It doesn't even have a legitimate authority to try.

Which is unfortunate for all you nosy Nancy communist control freaks.



If you don't like it don't use it, otherwise mind your own fucking bidniz.

Yours Truly,
individual liberty loving Americans everywhere.

BotanyBoy said:

ER visits mean fuck all.



It's not a proven gateway drug and overall effect on a society have been well studied.

The shit's only be illegal for a few decades out of a 200,000+ human history of using it and just like with booze attempting to ban it has been far more expensive and destructive.

Opioid =/= cannabinoid.....trying to demonize cannabis for an opium problem is like trying to blame school shootings on drunk drivers, that is to say it's fuckin' absurd.

Bottom line is that much like with all the other shit the government tries to prohibit it CAN'T. It doesn't even have a legitimate authority to try.

Which is unfortunate for all you nosy Nancy communist control freaks.



If you don't like it don't use it, otherwise mind your own fucking bidniz.

Yours Truly,
individual liberty loving Americans everywhere.

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It isn't about government regulation, it's about personal responsibility, understanding long term effects and the effects on teens. Long term social effects on a total society where it is legal has not been tested or documented. I, by no means think it should be a criminal offense but just know what it does. There are trends ( not good ones ) that are manifesting themselves where legal use has been studied over a 5 year period. Facts are facts. I'm not not trying to convince you one way or another just know there are negatives to its use, especially for teens in school. I have used it, I'm a product of the 70s, and I did like it, and I did use stronger stuff, things like Meth which is the 'best high ever" but I stopped. I'm not a hypocrite but as I get older I'm more informed.

icanhelp1 said:

It isn't about government regulation.

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Oh yes it is, that’s exactly what this is about.

If the government took it’s % and fucked off like they do with so many other toxic things. Those that wanted would and those that don’t wouldn’t, end of discussion.

The only political issue here is that the control freaks are trying to use government authority to tell others what they can and what they can’t do because they think they know how to better manage their lives for them than they do.

And in the name of freedom the big gubbmint loving authoritarian control freaks can fuck right off.

BotanyBoy said:

Oh yes it is, that’s exactly what this is about.

If the government took it’s % and fucked off like they do with so many other toxic things. Those that wanted would and those that don’t wouldn’t, end of discussion.

The only political issue here is that the control freaks are trying to use government authority to tell others what they can and what they can’t do because they think they know how to better manage their lives for them than they do.

And in the name of freedom the big gubbmint loving authoritarian control freaks can fuck right off.

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Government isn't trying to take over anything, it's already against the law. Criminal charges for personal use are very rarely administered, and rightly so. The government wants their cut in taxes. Legalizing it, I guess, eliminates the black market aspect. I think most political people want to legalize it so I don't understand this control freak stuff. I can assure there will be ramifications later on. Would you let your children use it, would you want pot to permeate through the school system, it is now. All I'm urging is that when you vote for it be aware of the consequences. Back when smoking was promoted it was big tobacco that assure us that smoking was safe, it was government that pushed to eliminate it. Just because you like something doesn't make it safe. You may thinks it's OK but there are parents out there that are scared shitless and their concerns are valid ones.

icanhelp1 said:

Government isn't trying to take over anything, it's already against the law.

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Exactly, and thus the issue.

Prohibition = government control.

When I vote I do so in favor of individual liberty. Personal health is the responsibility of the individual and it’s a parents job to raise their kids and teach them the risks and hazards of consumption and substance abuse, not the governments. And it’s sure as shit not the governments job to tell others how to live their lives because some folks are scared or don’t feel like having uncomfortable conversations with their kids.

From soda and junk food to whores and dope....

BotanyBoy said:

Exactly, and thus the issue.

Prohibition = government control.

When I vote I do so in favor of individual liberty. Personal health is the responsibility of the individual and it’s a parents job to raise their kids and teach them the risks and hazards of consumption and substance abuse, not the governments. And it’s sure as shit not the governments job to tell others how to live their lives because some folks are scared or don’t feel like having uncomfortable conversations with their kids.

From soda and junk food to whores and dope....

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Prohibition doesn't always mean government overreach, it could also be indicative of the voice of the people. Certain liberties can kill you, case in point, the opioids crisis. Just imagine if opiates were made legal for recreational use. There are times people need protection against themselves. You can't have a position that laws should be made only if you like them. There are times even the best parents lose that battle and lose a child. Trust me, I'm against government overreach but at the same time they have a responsibility to protect us. They have organizations that have the knowledge, resources wherewithal and responsibility to shield us from harm. We the people vote in people to represent our interest and safety by creating laws to protect us. I predict in the very near future there will be a new ground roots movement, "MAP" mothers against pot. I think pot for the most part, will be legalized but with some serious consequences in the future. I think prostitution should be legalized, if regulated.. Bloomberg's soda restrictions was ridiculous Just my humble opinion. Personal health is an individual responsibility until we have to pay for it. There's so many demographics involved when it come to evaluating personal health, things like environment, where you live, education, upbringing, financial status and genetics. I lost too many people close to me because of drugs, alcohol and cigarettes. I guess you could argue that they were responsible for their own health and welfare.

icanhelp1 said:

Prohibition doesn't always mean government overreach,

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No it doesn't, prohibiting murder, robbery, assault etc. is obviously not.

But all those things violate someone else's rights.

When I wrap my day up and I want to relax with my own hooch, ganja, moonshine etc.....I'm not violating anyone else's rights, I'm not infringing upon their liberties impeding their pursuit of happiness.

And in a liberal society that allegedly values individual liberty, I don't see any more of a valid argument to prohibit what I consume responsibly anymore than a valid argument to prohibit certain "yucky" sex acts between consenting adults.

icanhelp1 said:

it could also be indicative of the voice of the people.

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This isn't a mob rule democracy bubba, the voice of the people still has to do so within certain bounds.

Just because California wants to start prosecuting "offensive" comedians for hate speech, doesn't mean they can.

icanhelp1 said:

Certain liberties can kill you,

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All sorts can, driving, fucking up with your legally owned and registered handgun, you can even junk food yourself to death.

icanhelp1 said:

case in point, the opioids crisis. Just imagine if opiates were made legal for recreational use.

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I think that problem would sort itself out pretty quick.

icanhelp1 said:

There are times people need protection against themselves.

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I 100% disagree, people need protection from each other, from themselves is overreach.

icanhelp1 said:

You can't have a position that laws should be made only if you like them. There are times even the best parents lose that battle and lose a child. Trust me, I'm against government overreach but at the same time they have a responsibility to protect us.

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I don't I have the position that laws have no more business regulating our consumption anymore than our sex lives.

They have a responsibility to protect us from infringements upon our civil rights and individual liberty from being infringed upon. Not to protect us from our own poor decision making.

icanhelp1 said:

I lost too many people close to me because of drugs, alcohol and cigarettes. I guess you could argue that they were responsible for their own health and welfare.

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Join the club bubba, that's freedom.

Yea they are....that responsibility is the price of freedom.

And because the USA is supposed to be a free nation, a liberal society that values the individual pursuit of happiness, imo you shouldn't be able to tell me I can't have a beer because your dad or whoever drank himself to death a 30 pack at a time. His inability to control himself isn't justification to deny my right to brew, trade, sell and or consume beer.

It would be like banning junk food and soda pop because of the obesity epidemic...that's absurd levels of authoritarianism that has no place in the USA.

The facts show that no one has ever died from MJ overdose. Thousands of years of use have shown that cannabis has many uses and attributes. It is only illegal because a government official needed to keep his job after prohibition ended. Facts are facts the truth makes you free to choose.

I wonder why racist dawn hasn't decried the scourge of prescription opioids. After all it affects white and black (though "she" doesn't care about the black part).

Maybe it's because minorities are more like to get busted and serve longer jail sentences for weed? All while the rich exploit the poor?

Oh yes, that's definitely up racist dawn's alley.

JackLuis said:

The facts show that no one has ever died from MJ overdose.

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This may be the key. No one dies from a Marijuana overdose. When it was illegal, that may have scared some people from visiting the ER. That might account for some of the j crease in ER visits now that it’s legal.

BotanyBoy said:

No it doesn't, prohibiting murder, robbery, assault etc. is obviously not.

But all those things violate someone else's rights.

When I wrap my day up and I want to relax with my own hooch, ganja, moonshine etc.....I'm not violating anyone else's rights, I'm not infringing upon their liberties impeding their pursuit of happiness.

And in a liberal society that allegedly values individual liberty, I don't see any more of a valid argument to prohibit what I consume responsibly anymore than a valid argument to prohibit certain "yucky" sex acts between consenting adults.



This isn't a mob rule democracy bubba, the voice of the people still has to do so within certain bounds.

Just because California wants to start prosecuting "offensive" comedians for hate speech, doesn't mean they can.



All sorts can, driving, fucking up with your legally owned and registered handgun, you can even junk food yourself to death.



I think that problem would sort itself out pretty quick.



I 100% disagree, people need protection from each other, from themselves is overreach.



I don't I have the position that laws have no more business regulating our consumption anymore than our sex lives.

They have a responsibility to protect us from infringements upon our civil rights and individual liberty from being infringed upon. Not to protect us from our own poor decision making.



Join the club bubba, that's freedom.

Yea they are....that responsibility is the price of freedom.

And because the USA is supposed to be a free nation, a liberal society that values the individual pursuit of happiness, imo you shouldn't be able to tell me I can't have a beer because your dad or whoever drank himself to death a 30 pack at a time. His inability to control himself isn't justification to deny my right to brew, trade, sell and or consume beer.

It would be like banning junk food and soda pop because of the obesity epidemic...that's absurd levels of authoritarianism that has no place in the USA.

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There's such a thing as being socially responsible. I never implied that after a long day kicking back smoking a bowl or having a few pops was a bad thing. What I have a problem with, since you brought it up, is a person that doesn't know his limit, driving down the highway smashing into my car packed with my family, that's not freedom, but that's neither here or there. All I'm saying is that once pot is legalised I believe it will have some very serious unintended consequences. Your pursuit of happyness is your right and in a vacuum is harmless, but for most, we never always do things in a vacuum. People affect other people, were social beings. I'm concerned that once it's legal the stuff will be easily accessible to our youth and for reasons I posted earlier, people don't believe that long term use has an impact or that it can be harmful. The ridiculous comment no-one ever OD'd from pot is such a juvenile statement and that OD is the bar we set for something being potentially harmful. We are a country plagued with drug use, we consume more than any country on the planet, legalising one doesn't seem prudent. I understand Pot is popular and our laws will change to accomodate the will of the people, so be it! Please don't conflate medical use, if it helps people I'm all for it, I'm even OK using it for recreational purposes but it will come with a cost. My humble opinion.

icanhelp1 said:

There's such a thing as being socially responsible. I never implied that after a long day kicking back smoking a bowl or having a few pops was a bad thing.

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That's exactly what prohibition, and by extension supporting prohibition, is saying...rather explicitly.

icanhelp1 said:

What I have a problem with, since you brought it up, is a person that doesn't know his limit, driving down the highway smashing into my car packed with my family, that's not freedom, but that's neither here or there.

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No it's not freedom it's violating others...but that's why DUI laws are in place.

And in every state I know if it doesn't matter what you're bent on if you're fucked up and you get caught driving you're getting hit with a DUI as an individual.

icanhelp1 said:

All I'm saying is that once pot is legalised I believe it will have some very serious unintended consequences.

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Sure, but much like with booze criminalizing it has been arguably far more destructive.

It's absolutely more expensive on just a sheer bottom line level, the war on weed has been a huge waste of money.

icanhelp1 said:

I'm concerned that once it's legal the stuff will be easily accessible to our youth

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It's already accessible to our youth....just like every other drug.

icanhelp1 said:

We are a country plagued with drug use, we consume more than any country on the planet, legalising one doesn't seem prudent.

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That's what being rich does...people want to get bent and party.

As far as it being prudent or not that's a matter of perspective it seems.

icanhelp1 said:

I understand Pot is popular and our laws will change to accomodate the will of the people, so be it! Please don't conflate medical use, if it helps people I'm all for it, I'm even OK using it for recreational purposes but it will come with a cost. My humble opinion.

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Everything comes with a cost.....point is being a free country if you're not imposing those costs upon others? Government has no bidnizz getting involved.

S. Adams, Smoking cannabis 'doubles risk of pregnant women giving birth to their babies prematurely', Daily Mail (Jul. 7, 2019) (emphasis added).

Meanwhile....


J. Oldham, In first states to legalize pot, teen use triggers concerns, SFGate (Jun. 16, 2019)

DawnODay said:

Doctors have warned women not to smoke cannabis during pregnancy after a landmark study found those who do face double the average risk of going into labour prematurely.

The news comes despite a growing belief among young people that cannabis is harmless because it is 'natural' and may have medicinal properties.

In the US, cannabis 'dispensaries' even recommend the drug to combat morning sickness.

But now Canadian researchers have found that cannabis use during pregnancy is linked to a much higher possibility of a premature birth – putting the baby at serious risk.

The study found that almost one in eight women who smoked cannabis while pregnant delivered before 37 weeks, which is classed as premature. In contrast, the chance of a premature birth for women who avoided the drug was just one in 17.

Those who used cannabis in pregnancy were also more likely to suffer a serious complication called placental abruption, during which the placenta separates from the wall of the womb. The condition can be fatal for the unborn child.

In addition, the babies of cannabis smokers were more likely to require care on a neonatal ward, according to the research, reported in the Journal of the American Medical Association.​

S. Adams, Smoking cannabis 'doubles risk of pregnant women giving birth to their babies prematurely', Daily Mail (Jul. 7, 2019) (emphasis added).

Meanwhile....

The first two states to legalize recreational marijuana are starting to grapple with teenagers' growing use of highly potent pot....

"Horrible things are happening to kids," said psychiatrist Libby Stuyt, who treats teens in southwestern Colorado and has studied the health impacts of high-potency marijuana. "I see increased problems with psychosis, with addiction, with suicide, with depression and anxiety."...

"The brain is abnormally vulnerable during adolescence," said Staci Gruber, an associate professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School who studies how marijuana affects the brain. "Policy seems to have outpaced science, and in the best of all possible worlds, science would allow us to set policy."...

"I hope we don't lose a generation of people before we become clear we need to protect our kids' brains," said Leslie Walker- Harding, an adolescent medicine specialist who chairs the pediatrics department at Seattle Children's Hospital. It also is seeing more teens with marijuana-related symptoms.​

J. Oldham, In first states to legalize pot, teen use triggers concerns, SFGate (Jun. 16, 2019)

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Funny, they never seem so concerned about booze, tobacco or junk food.

BotanyBoy said:

Funny, they never seem so concerned about booze, tobacco or junk food.

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You keep making this argument. It's a fallacy. Just because we made bad choices in the past with some substances does not require us to make the same mistake with others.

DawnODay said:

You keep making this argument. It's a fallacy. Just because we made bad choices in the past with some substances does not require us to make the same mistake with others.

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It's not a fallacy, because have yet to establish that prohibition was a good or even successful policy in the first place.

It's arguably been an epic failure for both alcohol and cannabis, by far the most destructive, violent, dangerous and destructive part of those substances prohibition? Has been the prohibition.

Further more what argument is there that the government has the authority to prohibit ANY consumption??

Just who are you to tell others what they can and cannot consume??

Do also you feel entitled to tell people how to fuck? eat? wipe their ass???

Where do you draw the line Dawn... ?

BotanyBoy said:

It's not a fallacy, because have yet to establish that prohibition was a good or even successful policy in the first place.

It's arguably been an epic failure for both alcohol and cannabis, by far the most destructive, violent, dangerous and destructive part of those substances prohibition? Has been the prohibition.

Further more what argument is there that the government has the authority to prohibit ANY consumption??

Just who are you to tell others what they can and cannot consume??

Do also you feel entitled to tell people how to fuck? eat? wipe their ass???

Where do you draw the line Dawn... ?

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Prohibition did not work because alcohol was already too ingrained in the culture. That isn't the case with weed.

Society has the right to tell people what to consume when that consumption is a danger to society. Even though Prohibition didn't work, we still have plenty of laws limiting the circumstances of alcohol consumption.

Your argument remains fallacious.

DawnODay said:

Prohibition did not work because alcohol was already too ingrained in the culture. That isn't the case with weed.

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Even before legalization over 1/3 of the country was regular users and almost 2/3 had at least tried it.

Which is why prohibition of cannabis didn't work any better than that of alcohol and is going down in flames as one of the worst federal policies of all time.

Not to mention still to this day cannabis has been legal for most of the USA's history and a number of our founding fathers were fans and consumers of 'hemp flowers' . The American stoner has been part of the equation since day 1.

Like it or not, cannabis is every bit as engrained in US and human culture at large as alcohol is.

DawnODay said:

Society has the right to tell people what to consume when that consumption is a danger to society.

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It has not been established that cannabis is a threat to society.

Much like with alcohol, prohibition has been significantly more expensive and destructive to society than anything about the substance itself.

As far as medical science is concerned weed is somewhere between coffee and tea on the physiological danger/destruction scale.

Also back to fast food, booze and tobacco...clearly equal if not larger threats to society so why don't you have any desire to ban those???

DawnODay said:

Even though Prohibition didn't work, we still have plenty of laws limiting the circumstances of alcohol consumption.

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Right...but regulation of the legal consumption of a substance isn't the issue here, prohibition is.

DawnODay said:

Your argument remains fallacious.

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There are no fallacies here, just a lack of reasons for continuing a failed prohibition policy.....beyond you just not liking other people enjoying the freedom to consume what the want of course.