The bend and flex of form poetry

CharleyH

Curioser and curiouser
Joined
May 7, 2003
Posts
16,771
I am afraid of poetic forms.

I enjoy reading sonnets and haiku, and am fascinated by all forms written by other poets, but writing form terrifies me. As I've said to a couple of people around here, I think that I'll blame my high-school English teachers (at least one of them) for this. *chuckles* I'm afraid of form because I've held onto this notion that poetic form is rigid, inflexible. I'm just now beginning to see that this misconception has likely stunted my growth as a poet.

I'm curious ... do certain forms allow for more flexibility than others? Just how much can a poet bend a form (its structure, subject, etc.)?
 
Darling, you can do what you like with whatever you wish. But the challenge of the form is to bend to its will rather than to bend it to your will. To learn flexibility in fitting into the form. Flexibility in thought, in words, in technique. For me it is a training exercise. What I would do is fit the form, then make the required changes to fit the poem. But I would fit the form first.

But like I said, you can do as you wish. If you give me a fourteen line poem that has a point in the first eight lines, a counterpoint in the next four lines and a two line synopsis, can I call it a sonnet? Why not? Who says it has to be fourteen lines long? I would hope to still see a point/counterpoint though.

Forms are another type of label, or set of rules. But everyone seems to have their own rules about what poetry is and should be. And who is right? Well...I am of course! :D
 
I am afraid of poetic forms.

I enjoy reading sonnets and haiku, and am fascinated by all forms written by other poets, but writing form terrifies me. As I've said to a couple of people around here, I think that I'll blame my high-school English teachers (at least one of them) for this. *chuckles* I'm afraid of form because I've held onto this notion that poetic form is rigid, inflexible. I'm just now beginning to see that this misconception has likely stunted my growth as a poet.

I'm curious ... do certain forms allow for more flexibility than others? Just how much can a poet bend a form (its structure, subject, etc.)?

No way do i count as anything like a form expert, but it seems to me that once you have a grasp of 'the rules' there is poetic license: to ruin a poem for the sake of cutting that extra syllable, or to force a masc/fem rhyme or stress onto a line where the natural metre of speech-patterning makes it read all wrong... that's a crime to the poem, imo. Having said that, there's a world of difference between knowing the rules and working around them to benefit the write, and not knowing the rules and writing any old way but still hanging a form's label around your poem's neck.

When it comes to submitting to publications, I'd advise you read some of their stuff online if possible first, and their submissions requirements: this will give you an idea of how each subs editor might view any deviations from the form of a form :) You may read material that clearly bends the rules yet adheres to the heart and spirit of the form, or poetry that is bound tightly (which doesn't necessarily make a bad poem at all) where no loosening of these are permitted. Above all, as far as i'm concerned, the quality of the poem itself is what counts.

If you read some of the masters, like Byron, for example, you'll see how they bent the rules to suit their work. The problems arise when people are writing bad poetry, i'm thinking, rather than great poetry with a few bendy bits.
 
No way do i count as anything like a form expert, but it seems to me that once you have a grasp of 'the rules' there is poetic license: to ruin a poem for the sake of cutting that extra syllable, or to force a masc/fem rhyme or stress onto a line where the natural metre of speech-patterning makes it read all wrong... that's a crime to the poem, imo. Having said that, there's a world of difference between knowing the rules and working around them to benefit the write, and not knowing the rules and writing any old way but still hanging a form's label around your poem's neck.

When it comes to submitting to publications, I'd advise you read some of their stuff online if possible first, and their submissions requirements: this will give you an idea of how each subs editor might view any deviations from the form of a form :) You may read material that clearly bends the rules yet adheres to the heart and spirit of the form, or poetry that is bound tightly (which doesn't necessarily make a bad poem at all) where no loosening of these are permitted. Above all, as far as i'm concerned, the quality of the poem itself is what counts.

If you read some of the masters, like Byron, for example, you'll see how they bent the rules to suit their work. The problems arise when people are writing bad poetry, i'm thinking, rather than great poetry with a few bendy bits.

When I checked out the new list Pandora posted, there's a whole lot of form poetry web magazines. The ghazal, Spenserian sonnet, this or that haiku magazine. I appreciate the mechanics of the forms, why it's helpful for a beginning poet to learn as much as possible about them. You need your metrical feet under you when writing poetry, no matter how free your free verse is, a good poem doesn't trip over itself. The forms provide you with a feel for the beat, so when you've mastered your stressed/unstressed you don't have to think about syllable counts or rhyme schemes and can go and write the poem you want to.
 
When I checked out the new list Pandora posted, there's a whole lot of form poetry web magazines. The ghazal, Spenserian sonnet, this or that haiku magazine. I appreciate the mechanics of the forms, why it's helpful for a beginning poet to learn as much as possible about them. You need your metrical feet under you when writing poetry, no matter how free your free verse is, a good poem doesn't trip over itself. The forms provide you with a feel for the beat, so when you've mastered your stressed/unstressed you don't have to think about syllable counts or rhyme schemes and can go and write the poem you want to.
which is what it's really all about :D
 
Darling, you can do what you like with whatever you wish. But the challenge of the form is to bend to its will rather than to bend it to your will. To learn flexibility in fitting into the form. Flexibility in thought, in words, in technique. For me it is a training exercise. What I would do is fit the form, then make the required changes to fit the poem. But I would fit the form first.

But like I said, you can do as you wish. If you give me a fourteen line poem that has a point in the first eight lines, a counterpoint in the next four lines and a two line synopsis, can I call it a sonnet? Why not? Who says it has to be fourteen lines long? I would hope to still see a point/counterpoint though.

Forms are another type of label, or set of rules. But everyone seems to have their own rules about what poetry is and should be. And who is right? Well...I am of course! :D

lol - :kiss: When I was thinking of forms, I was specifically thinking of Shakespearean Sonnet (my English teacher was more like a math teacher, I swear).

What are you saying, though? No matter what definition you use, a Sonnet always has 14 lines with point/counterpoint. If I write a poem that has a point in the first nine lines, a counterpoint in the next four lines and a two line synopsis, will it still be a Sonnet by any currently accepted definition? :)
 
When I checked out the new list Pandora posted, there's a whole lot of form poetry web magazines. The ghazal, Spenserian sonnet, this or that haiku magazine. I appreciate the mechanics of the forms, why it's helpful for a beginning poet to learn as much as possible about them. You need your metrical feet under you when writing poetry, no matter how free your free verse is, a good poem doesn't trip over itself. The forms provide you with a feel for the beat, so when you've mastered your stressed/unstressed you don't have to think about syllable counts or rhyme schemes and can go and write the poem you want to.

Thanks to both you and Chipbutty, but let's forget beginner poets for a moment. :)

A sonnet is recognizable, as Fool addresses, by 14 lines and point/counterpoint. The evolution of the Sonnet as a form exemplifies a certain amount of flexibility, but what defines a Sonnet? Can the very things that define it (or any other) as a form be bent and, if so, how much flexibility can there be before it becomes unrecognizable (as a Sonnet for the sake of example) and transforms into something entirely different?
 
lol - :kiss: When I was thinking of forms, I was specifically thinking of Shakespearean Sonnet (my English teacher was more like a math teacher, I swear).

What are you saying, though? No matter what definition you use, a Sonnet always has 14 lines with point/counterpoint. If I write a poem that has a point in the first nine lines, a counterpoint in the next four lines and a two line synopsis, will it still be a Sonnet by any currently accepted definition? :)

If you say it is, then it is and I am sure that others will agree with you. I can also tell you that some purists will say that if not all rules are met then it is not a sonnet. I wrote one that was twelve lines of point and final couplet as the counterpoint. It properly followed both the rhyme scheme and the metric. Was it a sonnet?

A poem is a poem if you say it is. A form poem is a kind of challenge. If I tell you that you have to write a poem that is 18 lines long, that every other line has to rhyme, that each line must contain 3-5 words and that lines one, seven and thirteen are the same line then I have issued you a challenge with parameters. Or I can tell you to write a villanelle, which has rules that are similar, but different, and I have still issued you a challenge.
 
Thanks to both you and Chipbutty, but let's forget beginner poets for a moment. :)

A sonnet is recognizable, as Fool addresses, by 14 lines and point/counterpoint. The evolution of the Sonnet as a form exemplifies a certain amount of flexibility, but what defines a Sonnet? Can the very things that define it (or any other) as a form be bent and, if so, how much flexibility can there be before it becomes unrecognizable (as a Sonnet for the sake of example) and transforms into something entirely different?

We do have main lines in sonnet writing. Italian(which arguably has two unique forms itself), Shakespearean, Spenserian, then there's the weirdness of Percy's Shelley's Ozymandias. What is it that unifies these forms under the category of sonnet? To answer that it might take a master's thesis. Here's a page that gives examples of each: http://www.sonnets.org/basicforms.htm

Nelson Miller says: "A sonnet is fundamentally a dialectical construct which allows the poet to examine the nature and ramifications of two usually contrastive ideas, emotions, states of mind, beliefs, actions, events, images, etc., by juxtaposing the two against each other, and possibly resolving or just revealing the tensions created and operative between the two." Which is basically what Fool said above.
 
When I was writing form poems for survivor (for the most part) I enjoyed them enormously and the fact that it made me knuckle down to getting them right. Lauren's input on the rules page became my bible as before that there were many I had never even heard of let alone tried to write. Some I must admit did (and still do) elude me and I never did get my head round the Onegin Stanza although Tzara just writes them it seems so easily. If you wanted to dip your toe into form poetry I'd say try a Triolet or a Pantoum
 
Digress the meaning of the words

Never say I can't make a title into smut...



So is it ritual?
A formula for desire,
or desire constrained by a formula.

As she bends and flexes her form
mesmerizing me with the sequence
she follows
religiously.
Flexible shape
which for me would be contortion,
performed with grace
and a sultry smile
that leaves me forgetting to breathe.
Yes, breathe.
That rhythmic rise and fall
I seek to compel upon her
or she compels me
to fit a shape
encompassing both of us.
Both of us.
Rings so right
I groan at the thought
and trace my ego upon her skin
with a finger dipped in decadence

So what if she seeks ritual.
Her desire, content.
A formula subject to change.
 
When I was writing form poems for survivor (for the most part) I enjoyed them enormously and the fact that it made me knuckle down to getting them right. Lauren's input on the rules page became my bible as before that there were many I had never even heard of let alone tried to write. Some I must admit did (and still do) elude me and I never did get my head round the Onegin Stanza although Tzara just writes them it seems so easily. If you wanted to dip your toe into form poetry I'd say try a Triolet or a Pantoum

That too was my starting point. I pasted it into a word document so I could easily print my current focus (and then had another copy which shrank as I progressed thru the challenge. Did the same for the triggers, but they're now history.
Now have several links for forms.
Working with form is a challenge, sort of like a puzzle.
Make sure you use modern language, unless you have a good reason. 'Thee' etc. generally doesn't work for me in contemporary poetry.
You can just as easily write a bad poem without form.
 
I am afraid of poetic forms.

I enjoy reading sonnets and haiku, and am fascinated by all forms written by other poets, but writing form terrifies me. As I've said to a couple of people around here, I think that I'll blame my high-school English teachers (at least one of them) for this. *chuckles* I'm afraid of form because I've held onto this notion that poetic form is rigid, inflexible. I'm just now beginning to see that this misconception has likely stunted my growth as a poet.

I'm curious ... do certain forms allow for more flexibility than others? Just how much can a poet bend a form (its structure, subject, etc.)?

I am feeling ya sister. I was terrified of form myself (except haiku for some reason) but am starting to get into it. I found it helps with the cohesion of a poem and the sound. I still can't hear meter and have a great deal of difficult in recognising stresses in feet, but I get round this by counting syllables instead. I have found I really enjoy hunting for rhymes and when I hit a good slant rhyme, I practically do a little dance. Don't be afraid. Jump in. The waters lovely and the fish don't bite.
 
When I was writing form poems for survivor (for the most part) I enjoyed them enormously and the fact that it made me knuckle down to getting them right. Lauren's input on the rules page became my bible as before that there were many I had never even heard of let alone tried to write. Some I must admit did (and still do) elude me and I never did get my head round the Onegin Stanza although Tzara just writes them it seems so easily. If you wanted to dip your toe into form poetry I'd say try a Triolet or a Pantoum
Jeez, I live with Lauren, and I don't even get favouritism when writing poetry. Oh, we discuss it over lunch, but all I get are nods and I like it - lol. I guess I will just have to check out that article like the rest of you. :kiss: :D
 
I am feeling ya sister. I was terrified of form myself (except haiku for some reason) but am starting to get into it. I found it helps with the cohesion of a poem and the sound. I still can't hear meter and have a great deal of difficult in recognising stresses in feet, but I get round this by counting syllables instead. I have found I really enjoy hunting for rhymes and when I hit a good slant rhyme, I practically do a little dance. Don't be afraid. Jump in. The waters lovely and the fish don't bite.

It's funny you should mention haiku. I am quite loving every second of learning more about tanka. I love a challenge and this eastern form is really pushing me to think in different terms, especially when it comes to the use of metaphors etcetera. Jthserra sent me a couple of fabulous links and articles if you're interested/curious:

Tanka

Feelings: A journal of poetic thought and verse was a particularly inspiring article to me. :)
 
I can't really get into Haiku and Tankas and such and somebody (yes you know who you are!) jumping down my throat and telling me all that I tried was crap didn't help!
 
I can't really get into Haiku and Tankas and such and somebody (yes you know who you are!) jumping down my throat and telling me all that I tried was crap didn't help!
Perhaps you'd have gotten better feedback if you just (and I don't mean to be critical) relaxed your throat a bit more?

:D
 
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Never say I can't make a title into smut...



So is it ritual?
A formula for desire,
or desire constrained by a formula.

As she bends and flexes her form
mesmerizing me with the sequence
she follows
religiously.
Flexible shape
which for me would be contortion,
performed with grace
and a sultry smile
that leaves me forgetting to breathe.
Yes, breathe.
That rhythmic rise and fall
I seek to compel upon her
or she compels me
to fit a shape
encompassing both of us.
Both of us.
Rings so right
I groan at the thought
and trace my ego upon her skin
with a finger dipped in decadence

So what if she seeks ritual.
Her desire, content.
A formula subject to change.

You know I love everything you write. I felt that the line 'which for me would be contortion' was a bit forced and redundant after 'flexible shape'. The concept of contortion is exciting, though. I feel you could, at this point, use contortion to comment on how you feel on a primal level before moving back to the more controlled 'performed with grace'.

As for the lines:

trace my ego upon her skin
with a finger dipped in decadence

I LOVE that so much, it makes me horny! :kiss:
 
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Did someone say "villanelle"? Fool, I knew I loved you for some reason.

It is interesting that in other forms of literature, there is such a thing as "transcending" the form or genre. I'm not sure that exists in form poetry in the same way. If I write a sonnet (or villanelle) that bends the rules slightly but is a stronger poem for it, I'm not sure I could claim that it is a sonnet or whatever form I just altered. I would probably consider it free verse.
 
...No matter what definition you use, a Sonnet always has 14 lines with point/counterpoint...
Well, maybe. The sonnet is one of the most adapted (or warped) of all forms of poetry. As Fool and bflagsst and others have indicated, there are some more or less "standard points" characteristic of sonnets, e.g. in no particular order:
  • Fourteen lines in length.
  • A particular pattern of end rhyme. Various types of sonnets have different characteristic patterns.
  • A uniform metrical form, usually iambic pentameter.
  • Some kind of problem or statement, followed by a "turn" (volta) that resolves or comments on the problem/statement. In an Italian sonnet, the volta is normally between the octet and sestet (i.e., between lines 8 and 9); in an Shakespearian sonnet, the turn is often after the last of three quatrains in a final couplet.
I've seen modern sonnets that break any (and all) of these "rules" for example, this one by Ted Berrigan:
LXXXVIII
A Final Sonnet


How strange to be gone in a minute!......A man
Signs a shovel and so he digs......Everything
Turns into writing a name for a day
...............................Someone
is having a birthday and someone is getting
married and someone is telling a joke......my dream
a white tree......I dream of the code of the west
But this rough magic I here abjure......and
When I have required some heavenly music......which even now
I do......to work mine end upon their senses
That this aery charm is for......I'll break
My staff......bury it certain fathoms in the earth
And deeper than did ever plummet sound
I'll drown my book
It is 5:15 a.m.........................Dear Chris, hello.​
Depending upon how you read this it is 15 lines, unrhymed (or, at most, sporadically internally rhymed), erratic metrically, and if there is a clear statement and turn in it, I can't find it. In fact something like half the poem is directly quoted (though printed with rearranged line breaks) from Shakespeare's The Tempest.

Is it really a sonnet, then? Berrigan thought so (it's from his collection The Sonnets), and a whole lot of other people would think so, at least in part because he thought so.

Does that mean you can write anything you want and call it a sonnet? Maybe, maybe not. Certainly sonnets see much more "bend and flex" than other forms. In a sestina, the end words pretty much have to follow the prescribed pattern for people to consider it an example of the form, though pretty much any other requirements can be tossed). Forms with refrains or repetons (villanelle, terzanelle, pantoum, etc.) need the repeated lines to be identifiable as the particular form.

If you're asked to write a Shakespearian sonnet, then you probably don't have much leeway. That's fourteen lines of iambic pentameter, rhymed abab cdcd efef gg, where the closing couplet summarizes or makes a statement about the preceeding 12 lines.

if you're just asked to write "a sonnet," you can get a lot looser (or freer).
 
Tzara: your poems have fire! This sonnet and the other one about Little Annie make my head spin a little, but I love reading them. Wonderful work. Thank you for sharing.
 
Tzara: your poems have fire! This sonnet and the other one about Little Annie make my head spin a little, but I love reading them. Wonderful work. Thank you for sharing.
Um, I didn't write this sonnet. A very good poet named Ted Berrigan did. Blame (or credit) Angeline, who introduced me to him.

And, yeah. The guy is awesome.





Thank you, Ms. A, limply, belatedly.
 
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