Plotters v Pantsers

Life is not linear as most people live it. Snap decisions, twists and turns in everyday life changes things, sometimes in a pointless way. So why does a story have to follow a plot line.

For long stories, yes i plot it out as a series of points but they are never written in ink. Characters are the story as far as i'm concerned and my editor and publisher seem to agree. They keep taking my stories and publishing them after a little polishing.

"Plotter, Panster." Two sides of the same coin. You can plot all you want but you still don't have a story. You have to write it and take what comes to the ends of your fingers. It it fits what you plot, all is good. If not... you have a decision to make on how the characters lives are going to go.

Just MHO and your mileage may vary.
 
I read about all you folk who plot and make storylines, character notes, endless editing and so on, and think that's too much like project management to me.

I couldn't agree more. I've never plotted anything. I start from an angst or drama situation and let it develop. Like someone else said a movie playing out in my head.

The part that leaves me scratching my head though is where I write something early on in the story that seems fairly innocuous about a character. Yet by the time that story plays out, that trait becomes critically important to the ending or flipping the end. And it's already there :confused:

I love the "didn't see that coming" comments. Cause honestly, I didn't see it coming either. ;)
 
You have to have some idea of what your going to write even if it’s only a simple bullet point list.
 
Hmmm... plotter or pantser?

1. an idea comes to mind
2. I see it as a movie in my head
3. I think about it for awhile
4. I might write down the idea or not
5. I start writing
6. it may not go as planned (characters are fickle)
7. Which am I?

There are time I just sit and write without even having a plot. Are there really plots to stroke stories?

My methodology is similar. I always know the premise and the ending. How the characters get from one to the other can be known precisely or may develop as I write.

I have only once planned in detail - for my 2003 NaNoWriMo story of Flawed Red Silk. I had 36 possible chapters but reduced them to 12 when it was obvious I eould meet my target of number of words AND all chapter posted to Literotica within the month.
 
You have to have some idea of what your going to write even if it’s only a simple bullet point list.
That's the first rule of writing, sez one of my books: Figure out what you want to say. Everything else follows. Two of Larry Niven's Laws of Writing:

4. It is a sin to waste the reader's time.
5. If you've nothing to say, say it any way you like. Stylistic innovations, contorted story lines or none, exotic or genderless pronouns, internal inconsistencies, the recipe for preparing your lover as a cannibal banquet: feel free. If what you have to say is important and/or difficult to follow, use the simplest language possible. If the reader doesn't get it, then let it not be your fault.

Somehow, know what you want to say, then say it. Sometimes the message evolves i.e. the story goes elsewhere as the players or events demand. One series episode of mine expanded into a three-chapter arc because -- it had to. I had my plot points figured out but the in-betweens just grew and grew, like stronger connective tissue in a body.

Another writing model: it's sculpture. Take a script or journal, any set of events, and treat it as a statue's skeleton. You slap clay (words) onto the armature, mould the clay with your fingers, shave away excess, smooth it with your palms, shape it till it's what you want. Yes, three-dimensional, and tactile.
 
I couldn't agree more. I've never plotted anything. I start from an angst or drama situation and let it develop. Like someone else said a movie playing out in my head.

The part that leaves me scratching my head though is where I write something early on in the story that seems fairly innocuous about a character. Yet by the time that story plays out, that trait becomes critically important to the ending or flipping the end. And it's already there :confused:

I love the "didn't see that coming" comments. Cause honestly, I didn't see it coming either. ;)

This.
 
You have to have some idea of what your going to write even if it’s only a simple bullet point list.

My last story in the Old West.

1/ He's a gun fighter.
2/ He's going to be bad.
3/ Why is he bad?
4/ See #1

I guess if that's a bullet point list then I had one. Although it was entirely mental. :D
 
I just read an interesting thread on Twitter about why the feel of Game of Thrones has changed over the last few seasons. The author of this thread attributed it to the difference between "plotters" and "pantsers."

Plotters plot a story first, and then write it, while pantsers make up the story as they write. The advantage of a plotting style is that the plot of the story may be tighter and more cohesive, but the downside is that the characters may seem less real, and more as though they are devices to push the plot. Pantsers tend to flesh out the characters more, and the plot develops as a product of character, but the plot may be less cohesive.

This person reasons that the first five seasons of GOT had a "pantser" feel because they tracked the previously published books of GRR Martin. Since the last few seasons have outstripped the plot of the published books, the stories are being written by the producers rather than by GRRM, and they have more of a "plotter" feel to them. The characters are less satisfying.

I think this is dead-on with respect to GOT, and the general observations apply more broadly as well.

I'm a plotter. My stories arise from concepts rather than characters. I plot the storylines before I write. I think my story ideas and plots are pretty good but sometimes my characters can be a bit thin, or they do things that some readers don't find plausible or satisfying.

I'm curious what authors here think about this. Do you buy the plotter/pantser distinction? Are you a plotter or a pantser? Do you see the consequences that this person describes happening in your own stories?
I'm very much a plotter. I write long stories (7+ pages), and I think they are complex and tightly plotted.

A lot of times, I'll have a scene or idea that I find interesting. I'll turn it over in my mind until I come with something interesting. A lot of times when I get a plot, I get seven pages worth at once. But as I write, I'll realize that there's a problem with the story as I had conceived it and will make major changes.

With "My Sister Set Me Up on a Blind Date", I thought of the opening scene and the final sex scene separately. I had those scenes worked out in full detail. For a long time, I had no idea how to connect them. Then one day, it hit me. I wrote the first draft and as I was revising it, I realized that things happened too quickly and that I needed a whole bunch of additional minor events so that their relationship could develop some more. As I was doing that re-write, I realized what personality I wanted the sister to have. So I always have the premise and the key scenes worked out before I start writing, but I don't stop thinking creatively at that point.
 
My last story in the Old West.

1/ He's a gun fighter.
2/ He's going to be bad.
3/ Why is he bad?
4/ See #1

I guess if that's a bullet point list then I had one. Although it was entirely mental. :D

Sounds good to me.👍 I’ve often been described as being mental.😳 Most often by my wife. 🙄
 
You have to have some idea of what your going to write even if it’s only a simple bullet point list.
No, you don't. My last story sequence started from a real life encounter in the street, which I recounted. I then wrote what might have happened if the two parties continued to meet. I had zero idea where the story was going until it got there. A third major character just "arrived" in a scene that occurred to me about five minutes before I wrote it. That's how I write - my subconscious might be busy, but my conscious mind is very often astonished at what it conjures up.
 
Life is not linear as most people live it. Snap decisions, twists and turns in everyday life changes things, sometimes in a pointless way. So why does a story have to follow a plot line.

<snip>

I do both. I do plot out more involved stories. But I usually start with the characters or setting and I've had cases where a character's personality wasn't going to take me along the plot I'd planned so it becomes a seat of the pants journey.

I usually end up keeping the character(s) and modifying the plot since I'm 'in their head(s).' If I can't get into their heads then I'll go away for a while and if I still can't get them I'll drop them and try something else.

The story I'm submitting for Geek Pride does not end anywhere near how I'd originally envisioned but once I got into the head of my lead character she just wasn't going to go to the original destination. I decided she was more compelling than that original plotline so she stayed and the plot changed.
 
Sometimes it's patchwork. A few distinct incidents and scenes infest my head awhile and I idly ponder how to piece them together. BRIDE OF KONG and HOW I BECAME AN EVIL QUEEN and STANLEY STEAMER started like that. Just adjust pieces as needed for the story universe.

It's like quilting a pictorial mosaic. Embroider a few patches, stitch them into a storyline, and cut off the loose threads. Or it's a collage. I've many ragged fragments stored, ready to be pasted-in to make the picture. Don't sniff the glue.
 
While I realize this wasn't OP's point, I think George RR Martin would be at least a little amused at the notion of his being a pantser over a plotter. He has referred to himself multiple times as a 'gardener,' in that he plants seeds with the intention of them growing in a specific way (to complete the analogy, sometimes a seed will take it's own path, changing it's own small plot (heh) of the garden, but the larger project conforms to his design. He's made comments about how he writes out of order, and had written the entirety of A Storm of Swords before writing a pivotal chapter (you know which one), out of concern that he wouldn't like the way it turned out when events transpired.

And while I'm not a particularly great or prolific writer (my fantasy novel has been stalled for literal years and probably won't ever be completed, and my erotica output is a measly three stories to date), I'm definitely a plotter. However, I like to think that doesn't mean I leave character development behind (I try to ask 'why?' for any notable decision or action a character makes, and dig a few layers in the why's to make sure I'm not missing something).

I write by making an outline, in extremely broad strokes, and then filling in detail. I jump around in the outline, and that gives me easy opportunity to do my own bit of gardening where the mood strikes, and let seeds grow. If that means I end up writing something that will change future events that are already written, I just decide which version I prefer, and fix accordingly. It's really not a big deal, and at some point, this outline evolves into a finished product.

Maybe it's just how I'm wired, but the act of sitting down with a blank page or screen to construct prose just feels so lamentably joyless to me. Best case scenario: I would end up with worthless product that dwelt on imaginary minutiae which, in one form or another, would commit the sin of wasting the reader's time.
 
While I realize this wasn't OP's point, I think George RR Martin would be at least a little amused at the notion of his being a pantser over a plotter. He has referred to himself multiple times as a 'gardener,' in that he plants seeds with the intention of them growing in a specific way (to complete the analogy, sometimes a seed will take it's own path, changing it's own small plot (heh) of the garden, but the larger project conforms to his design. He's made comments about how he writes out of order, and had written the entirety of A Storm of Swords before writing a pivotal chapter (you know which one), out of concern that he wouldn't like the way it turned out when events transpired.

And while I'm not a particularly great or prolific writer (my fantasy novel has been stalled for literal years and probably won't ever be completed, and my erotica output is a measly three stories to date), I'm definitely a plotter. However, I like to think that doesn't mean I leave character development behind (I try to ask 'why?' for any notable decision or action a character makes, and dig a few layers in the why's to make sure I'm not missing something).

I write by making an outline, in extremely broad strokes, and then filling in detail. I jump around in the outline, and that gives me easy opportunity to do my own bit of gardening where the mood strikes, and let seeds grow. If that means I end up writing something that will change future events that are already written, I just decide which version I prefer, and fix accordingly. It's really not a big deal, and at some point, this outline evolves into a finished product.

Maybe it's just how I'm wired, but the act of sitting down with a blank page or screen to construct prose just feels so lamentably joyless to me. Best case scenario: I would end up with worthless product that dwelt on imaginary minutiae which, in one form or another, would commit the sin of wasting the reader's time.

What do you find to be the most important feature in your outline?
 
What do you find to be the most important feature in your outline?

One of two things:
1. The ability to jump around. If an idea strikes for later in the story, I jump to it immediately, drop it in the outline, and flesh it out. If I'm stuck in traffic and I come up with a snippet of dialogue I like, I put my microphone on and make it happen immediately. If I just don't feel like working on the part I was working on previously, I simply work on a different part. I don't have to work my way to this or that section that I just had a good idea for.

2. The ability to bury hints early in a story, and then skip to the payoff. This is useful in longer pieces, although it admittedly does little in shorter stories.
 
I'm definitely a plotter. But I do a lot of discovery writing while I'm in the planning phase. I free write character studies and am often surprised by what I learn about those characters. I also free write the basic plot points and take them in different directions to see which ones work best.

I love doing the free writing planning. I don't put any pressure on myself to get things right. The word choice can be all wrong, it doesn't matter. It's a fun stress free way to play with my ideas.
 
One of two things:
1. The ability to jump around. If an idea strikes for later in the story, I jump to it immediately, drop it in the outline, and flesh it out. If I'm stuck in traffic and I come up with a snippet of dialogue I like, I put my microphone on and make it happen immediately. If I just don't feel like working on the part I was working on previously, I simply work on a different part. I don't have to work my way to this or that section that I just had a good idea for.

2. The ability to bury hints early in a story, and then skip to the payoff. This is useful in longer pieces, although it admittedly does little in shorter stories.

What do you mean by this specifically? The ability to bury hints early in a story, and then skip to the payoff. I get the hints but what do you mean by skipping to the payoff? Do you mean writing the hint and then adding the payoff later right then?
 
What do you mean by this specifically? The ability to bury hints early in a story, and then skip to the payoff. I get the hints but what do you mean by skipping to the payoff? Do you mean writing the hint and then adding the payoff later right then?

Precisely this. My stories are written in a very nonlinear manner.

A spoilery example from one of my stories, Snowed In: In Two co-workers are stranded together on Christmas Eve. The story began life as a plot bunny that set in while I was stuck at work overnight, blocked in by a broken down train.

In the story, two co-workers end up being there for each other emotionally and physically while stranded together over Christmas. It's told in a flashback, and after the flash back ends, the narrator/male lead reveals that the female lead had planned, before being stranded, to quit the job to move away to be with her kids and estranged husband. The main character ends up a bit broken by this, especially with the fact that the female's youngest daughter could be his.

I like for twists and gut punches to be telegraphed for careful readers, so as soon as I decided that detail of the story, I wrote out the main character's reaction in the epilogue. Then, I went back in and dropped several hints that it was going to happen (a throwaway line from early in the story: '"Your van is full," I commented. "It's like you're moving."'). A few readers caught some of them, which made me very happy.

Could I have made the little hints I wanted to include happen while writing in a linear manner? Absolutely! Would I have been as excited to write them when the ideas weren't fresh? Hell, as slowly as I write prose, would I even have remembered? In all honesty, probably not.
 
Precisely this. My stories are written in a very nonlinear manner.

A spoilery example from one of my stories, Snowed In: In Two co-workers are stranded together on Christmas Eve. The story began life as a plot bunny that set in while I was stuck at work overnight, blocked in by a broken down train.

In the story, two co-workers end up being there for each other emotionally and physically while stranded together over Christmas. It's told in a flashback, and after the flash back ends, the narrator/male lead reveals that the female lead had planned, before being stranded, to quit the job to move away to be with her kids and estranged husband. The main character ends up a bit broken by this, especially with the fact that the female's youngest daughter could be his.

I like for twists and gut punches to be telegraphed for careful readers, so as soon as I decided that detail of the story, I wrote out the main character's reaction in the epilogue. Then, I went back in and dropped several hints that it was going to happen (a throwaway line from early in the story: '"Your van is full," I commented. "It's like you're moving."'). A few readers caught some of them, which made me very happy.

Could I have made the little hints I wanted to include happen while writing in a linear manner? Absolutely! Would I have been as excited to write them when the ideas weren't fresh? Hell, as slowly as I write prose, would I even have remembered? In all honesty, probably not.

Thank you for the explanation, these tips always help.
 
Pantsploting

This has been a really helpful thread in getting me to think a bit through what passes for my process.

I've written a lot, but never anything like what I'm writing here. For my one big story, I started with a broad and very vague arc of the main plot, with a couple of ideas for turning points, and some critical character traits of the main actors. What I've found most amusing and gratifying is when, kind of like what Gordo said, some throw-away bit of description or background ends up adding a nice bit of structure for a later scene.

Anyway, I did start writing super-short character bios - first it was just physical characteristics, then I added inspirational photos to recall specifics. Later I added more character info and plot connections. That has become really important for the less prominent characters that I keep forgetting about.

That chart moved into a chapter by chapter summary, but it was still almost all about things that had already happened, just to remind me of what everyone has gone through. I haven't made more than a brief bullet point list of critical future events. And even then, the story has shifted enough to make many of those bullet points unusable.

But the crux of it is that I'm basically where I wanted to be, at the end of the story I wanted to tell, and now the narrative is stalling. Perhaps I need to be more of a plotter than a pantser at the end of the story?

In any case, thanks all for an interesting conversation. Perhaps this is the way forward to bring my little smutfest to a graceful close.
 
...and now the narrative is stalling. Perhaps I need to be more of a plotter than a pantser at the end of the story?

In any case, thanks all for an interesting conversation. Perhaps this is the way forward to bring my little smutfest to a graceful close.

The Pantser's Dilemma.

Listen to the work. It'll tell you when it's time to wipe up, put your underwear back on, and curl up in the covers.

Stories written this way have a natural lifespan. It's what makes them organic. When they're ready to end, end them and give another story a chance to come out.
 
One of two things:
1. The ability to jump around. If an idea strikes for later in the story, I jump to it immediately, drop it in the outline, and flesh it out. If I'm stuck in traffic and I come up with a snippet of dialogue I like, I put my microphone on and make it happen immediately. If I just don't feel like working on the part I was working on previously, I simply work on a different part. I don't have to work my way to this or that section that I just had a good idea for.

2. The ability to bury hints early in a story, and then skip to the payoff. This is useful in longer pieces, although it admittedly does little in shorter stories.

1. The ability to jump around etc.
Extremely good advice. Particularly regarding if an idea strikes you somewhere impractical. I’ve scribbled a word of two on an envelope etc but I always do it lightly in pencil so I can erase it later. My most common one is in the notes on my phone. I, obviously, have more than one email and I’ve begun a draft of an idea and sent it to myself. Waking up during the night and putting the idea down because if I wait until the morning I’ll remember I had an idea but can’t remember it. How many times do you hear professional writers say they do things like that? If it’s good enough for them then it’s okay by me.

1. The ability to bury hints etc.
I don’t consciously bury hints but I do like a twist in the ending whether it’s one of my stories or one I’m reading. A friend, who hadn’t put a twist in their many stories, did so recently. It caught me completely by surprise, much to their amusement, of course. But I think that’s the ability of a good writer. One who takes you down the path not knowing where you are going to end up or, if the ending is a natural occurrence, not knowing how you are going to get there. So many stories on here are stereotypical A to Z.

It has been good reading a thread without the usual garbage being thrown around.
 
Re: plots and outlines -- I think of it more as 'sketching' the story. Know who's there and where. Have some ideas of start, end, and stuff along the way. Pencil a rough draft, keeping the eraser handy. Then instill a mix of premise, characters, plot points, and scenes. Elaborate; speculate; fornicate; redo as needed. Paint over the weak spots.
 
Re: plots and outlines -- I think of it more as 'sketching' the story. Know who's there and where. Have some ideas of start, end, and stuff along the way. Pencil a rough draft, keeping the eraser handy. Then instill a mix of premise, characters, plot points, and scenes. Elaborate; speculate; fornicate; redo as needed. Paint over the weak spots.

I'm a musician, so I always liken it to recording a demo. And just because you have an idea in an outline, sketch, or demo doesn't mean it can't change in the final product.

Keith Richards never intended for the guitar riff in 'Satisfaction' to be in the recording - he was making a demo and using his fuzz pedal to stand in for a horn section.
 
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