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Abuse in artistic expression - Game of Thrones and others

Recidiva

Recidiva

Harastal
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Posts
89,726
The question's come up lately in "Game Of Thrones" where there's a rape scene.


(Spoiler alert if you haven't watched)


In this case, Sansa Stark is raped, off camera. People are boycotting the show for portraying violence against women.

Interesting because:

In the book, it is soooo much worse. HBO rewrote this scene, which was originally experienced by another character, Jeyne Poole, who is supposed to pretend to be Arya. This woman is terrified, abused and tortured, as was Theon. I can't even go into it, it's so bad. It's against site rules bad. So why wasn't the show boycotted when Theon was tortured? It's violence against men. He had a dick in a box (not in the book) but why wasn't the show boycotted every single episode for violence against everybody?

I'm not boycotting because I'm fairly convinced it actually has nothing to do with the book anyway. I have read them over and over. Game of Thrones, the books, are superior writing. They're worth reading. He does excellent characterization, dialogue and plot.

Violence, rape, abuse, these things are historical and documented. Yes, HBO's Game of Thrones is exploitive and violent. No doubt. Why would you be watching it in the first place if you were upset by portrayals of things that happen in reality...plus dragons?

Trying to figure out the line here where you could have made it to the fifth season and now require a trigger warning.

At which point does avoiding portrayal of horrible things mean that you're unwilling to confront the fact that horrible things happen? Who is willing to blame an author for condoning it, compared to respecting them for representing it accurately?

I understand not watching yourself (Noor won't watch because of violence and I'm good with that) but what brings you to decide nobody should watch it?
 
Violence is violence, with an infinite number of subcategories. It's only a problem when someone decides a particular category is misclassified, or doesn't get sufficient indignity.

Take violence out of literature(story telling) and we won't have any stories. Hansel and Gretel cremated the witch alive, so we have a double whammy of a stereotypical elderly woman as a Satanic personality and violence against women, seen as getting what she deserved.

Beyond that, boycotting a TV show is a strange kind of protest. Watching TV is pretty much a solitary pursuit, even in a room full of people. How will anyone know the difference?

For every person who decides to watch Lost in Space reruns on the church channel, probably 50 people will tune in because they heard there was going to be some hot stuff on tonight.
 
bronzeage said:
Violence is violence, with an infinite number of subcategories. It's only a problem when someone decides a particular category is misclassified, or doesn't get sufficient indignity.

Take violence out of literature(story telling) and we won't have any stories. Hansel and Gretel cremated the witch alive, so we have a double whammy of a stereotypical elderly woman as a Satanic personality and violence against women, seen as getting what she deserved.

Beyond that, boycotting a TV show is a strange kind of protest. Watching TV is pretty much a solitary pursuit, even in a room full of people. How will anyone know the difference?

For every person who decides to watch Lost in Space reruns on the church channel, probably 50 people will tune in because they heard there was going to be some hot stuff on tonight.
Click to expand...

That is what stories are about. Conflict. Gillian Flynn wrote something like that in "Gone Girl" about how writing stories about the majority of nice people in the Midwest would be boring "Everyone did their best, and then they died."

Robert Heinlein posited a universe of "fictons" where what was written became true and a famous author could no longer in good conscience write a story with conflict in it.

I can understand being upset, but it's fiction, it's a distinct kind of upset, or should be. He wrote these guys so you'd be upset.
 
Recidiva said:
That is what stories are about. Conflict. Gillian Flynn wrote something like that in "Gone Girl" about how writing stories about the majority of nice people in the Midwest would be boring "Everyone did their best, and then they died."

Robert Heinlein posited a universe of "fictons" where what was written became true and a famous author could no longer in good conscience write a story with conflict in it.

I can understand being upset, but it's fiction, it's a distinct kind of upset, or should be. He wrote these guys so you'd be upset.
Click to expand...

It took me a while to figure out that the conflict in Lady Chatterly's Lover was the idea she wanted to have sex with a man below her station. I suppose that was shocking for the times, but I kept looking for the dirty parts. Conflict is a very subjective concept.

The majority of nice people are boring, everywhere in the world, because we limit the number of people who know the truth about us. That's why we work so hard to keep our secrets out of the public view. Everyone's private life is interesting on some level.
 
bronzeage said:
It took me a while to figure out that the conflict in Lady Chatterly's Lover was the idea she wanted to have sex with a man below her station. I suppose that was shocking for the times, but I kept looking for the dirty parts. Conflict is a very subjective concept.

The majority of nice people are boring, everywhere in the world, because we limit the number of people who know the truth about us. That's why we work so hard to keep our secrets out of the public view. Everyone's private life is interesting on some level.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree that everyone's life is interesting on some level. I began writing a story about this. A screen play actually. It revolves around a group of elders living in a nursing home.
 
bronzeage said:
It took me a while to figure out that the conflict in Lady Chatterly's Lover was the idea she wanted to have sex with a man below her station. I suppose that was shocking for the times, but I kept looking for the dirty parts. Conflict is a very subjective concept.

The majority of nice people are boring, everywhere in the world, because we limit the number of people who know the truth about us. That's why we work so hard to keep our secrets out of the public view. Everyone's private life is interesting on some level.
Click to expand...

Well, not having sex when you want to have sex is a huge enough conflict that romance wouldn't exist without it as a practice or as a genre.

In reality I absolutely embrace being boring. Live a boring life, think exciting thoughts. The subjective experience of living a happy life doesn't translate well to text because happiness isn't provoked by seeing someone happy with a few exceptions. We have all this alert brain chemistry intended to make us pay attention to threat, and so threat gets our attention.

Defiance of expectation is the basis of humor and conflict.
 
Sunshine said:
Yes, I agree that everyone's life is interesting on some level. I began writing a story about this. A screen play actually. It revolves around a group of elders living in a nursing home.
Click to expand...

Definitely it's interesting. Whether or not it makes a good story is harder to define.

This doesn't apply to your screen play, I hope it goes the way you want it to go. :)

A lot of stories have already been told and the first time someone told a story about someone rocking on a porch being happy it was probably amazing. Porch? What's a porch? A chair that rocks? Who has time? That's improbable.
 
Recidiva said:
Well, not having sex when you want to have sex is a huge enough conflict that romance wouldn't exist without it as a practice or as a genre.

In reality I absolutely embrace being boring. Live a boring life, think exciting thoughts. The subjective experience of living a happy life doesn't translate well to text because happiness isn't provoked by seeing someone happy with a few exceptions. We have all this alert brain chemistry intended to make us pay attention to threat, and so threat gets our attention.

Defiance of expectation is the basis of humor and conflict.
Click to expand...

The opposite of boredom is terror. You only have to experience terror a couple times to learn to appreciate boredom.
 
bronzeage said:
The opposite of boredom is terror. You only have to experience terror a couple times to learn to appreciate boredom.
Click to expand...

I have experienced terror enough times to be very happy to say when asked how was your day..."Absolutely nothing. It was great."

I used to put myself in a lot of stupid danger for the fun of it, which is nothing compared to the actual crap life hands you for fun.

My job means I review a lot of emergency room reports. Saturated with all that can and does go wrong.

Boring is good.
 
Recidiva said:
In this case, Sansa Stark is raped, off camera. People are boycotting the show for portraying violence against women.
Click to expand...

It's been simmering for some time. I like the show, but frankly it hasn't helped its case with its habit of gratuitous (and I'm not saying that as any species of prude, trust me) nudity and sexploitation. Against that backdrop it becomes easier to argue for the decision use Sansa in this way as some kind of titillation, or at minimum that one feels like it's functioning that way, even if it's off-screen.

(I'm disappointed that they decided to switch Sansa out for Jeyne Poole, though. The show has made some smart plays in departing from the books, but that doesn't sound to me like one of them.)

With all that said, many of the objections seem to come from people demanding that Game of Thrones should be a romance and shouldn't be about Unpleasant Things and that if Unpleasant Things are included they are being betrayed (a common defense is along the lines that "he's created this universe that has dragons in it but he can't magic away the rape?"). This came up from "fans" of the books, too, and it's a bit idiotic. More than a bit idiotic, really. Anyone who didn't notice from day one that Martin was setting out to subvert the hell out of any chivalric romance trope he could lay hands on was blinding themselves to what makes these stories work, and what makes them compelling. No, they are not romances. No, none of your favourite characters are bound for placid happy endings. If by this point you can't cope with that maybe you really shouldn't be watching.

Boy howdy is this from Sophie Turner going to stir the pot, though:

US Magazine said:
“I love the way Ramsay had Theon watching. It was all so messed up. It’s also so daunting for me to do it. I’ve been making [producer Bryan Cogman] feel so bad for writing that scene: ‘I can’t believe you’re doing this to me!’ But I secretly loved it.”
Click to expand...
 
CyranoJ said:
It's been simmering for some time. I like the show, but frankly it hasn't helped its case with its habit of gratuitous (and I'm not saying that as any species of prude, trust me) nudity and sexploitation. Against that backdrop it becomes easier to argue for the decision use Sansa in this way as some kind of titillation, or at minimum that one feels like it's functioning that way, even if it's off-screen.

(I'm disappointed that they decided to switch Sansa out for Jeyne Poole, though. The show has made some smart plays in departing from the books, but that doesn't sound to me like one of them.)

With all that said, many of the objections seem to come from people demanding that Game of Thrones should be a romance and shouldn't be about Unpleasant Things and that if Unpleasant Things are included they are being betrayed (a common defense is along the lines that "he's created this universe that has dragons in it but he can't magic away the rape?"). This came up from "fans" of the books, too, and it's a bit idiotic. More than a bit idiotic, really. Anyone who didn't notice from day one that Martin was setting out to subvert the hell out of any chivalric romance trope he could lay hands on was blinding themselves to what makes these stories work, and what makes them compelling. No, they are not romances. No, none of your favourite characters are bound for placid happy endings. If by this point you can't cope with that maybe you really shouldn't be watching.

Boy howdy is this from Sophie Turner going to stir the pot, though:
Click to expand...

I have no idea what they're doing any more, I mostly give up on trying to predict stuff. Who has greyscale? Where's Griffin? Why is that guy dead? Wait...what? Hold on...all right, never mind.

I cannot imagine that GRRM has given them actual hints to what's going to happen later so I keep thinking "You're gonna need that guy!"

I'm really bummed that there's no Lady Stoneheart.

This is great for Sophie Turner, she's a huge star now, which is why they used her. Otherwise she spends the next how many books sitting in the Eyrie being bored. Good for her, really. She's speaking as an actress with a part. On that note, this is a fun picture.

1kLcUW2.jpg
 
I have a problem calling the Sansa scene a rape scene.

She agreed to get married and she knew they had to sleep together. She agreed to it. It was under some very uncomfortable and unwanted conditions. File this one under the Reluctance (not full on non consensual) category.

That being said ... Hated it, then again, I enjoy the books far more than the show. This seasons has been terrible. Would I boycott the show for this one scene? No. Could this scene be the breaking point for some people who have been gradually finding the show no longer worth their time? Yes. The only reason I watch the show is because it's on a Sunday night and Martin takes far too long between books. I'm ready to give up on his books. I stopped reading the Wheel of Time for the same reason (although I did scan the ending of the last book to find out what happened).


One thing I've noticed is the writers of this series have a tendency to throw in tits when not needed and in truth, they don't even do it well. It's just a tit shot, there is nothing erotic about most of their sex scenes that weren't violent (not saying their violent scenes were erotic). If you're going to throw in sex, do it like Sparticus did the first & second seasons. Make it interesting, not flat and boring.

What I've found is HBO has bitten off for more than they can chew. This show would have been better on Network TV with a 24 episode season and cut away sex scenes. Martin defends this show, but whether that's ego or he's paid to do it, I don't know and I don't care. They might be two separate entities, but when one one of those entities has become crap, it's still crap.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Everyday_Man said:
I have a problem calling the Sansa scene a rape scene.

She agreed to get married and she knew they had to sleep together. She agreed to it. It was under some very uncomfortable and unwanted conditions. File this one under the Reluctance (not full on non consensual) category.

That being said ... Hated it, then again, I enjoy the books far more than the show. This seasons has been terrible. Would I boy caught the show for this one scene? No. Could this scene be the breaking point for some people who have been on gradually finding the show no longer worth their time? Yes. The only reason I watch the show is because it's on a Sunday night and Martin takes far too long between books. I'm ready to give up on his books. I stopped reading the Wheel of Time for the same reason (although I did scan the ending of the last book to find out what happened).


One thing I've noticed is the writers of this series have a tendency to throw in tits when not needed and in truth, they don't even do it well. It's just a tit shot, there is nothing erotic about most of their sex scenes that weren't violent. If you're going to throw in sex, do it like Sparticus did the first & second seasons. Make it interesting, not flat and boring.

What I've found is HBO has bitten off for more than they can chew. This show would have been better on Network TV with a 24 episode season and cut away sex scenes. Martin defends this show, but whether that's ego or he's paid to do it, I don't know and I don't care. They might be two separate entities, but when one one of those entities has become crap, it's still crap.
Click to expand...

She agreed to be married because what would happen to her if she didn't? I would say she's had a rough time there. I don't think that's really what she wanted to do with her day. I'm okay calling it rape. Ramsay is a rapist and a murderer and we're lucky she didn't have to go through what Jeyne did. Considering it's Ramsay, I'm going to give a thumbs up on it being called rape.

I really, really love the books for what expectations it doesn't satisfy. They're unique in a lot of ways. I would think GRRM knows the difference and figures why not play along. He sold it, so he considered this ahead of time.

I will say that the actors are good and the sets and particularly costumes are amazing. The disappointments of story I simply can't state here as they are Legion.

I was thoroughly bummed to see that Dario Naharis was not going to have a different color beard every day, I really wanted to see some good hair sculpting there.

Instead I'll just put in some Mathu Anderson. Give that man free rein on the Tyroshi!

0keC8hFS.jpeg
 
Back to actual reality, folks...

Crimes of Passion thread original post #9 deleted here...

...but imaged for posterity here:

Recidiva the Sex Offender said:
There was a guy I knew on the internet when I was in my 20s. Good gamer, tough talker, smart and funny. Ran a BDSM bondage sideline of cyber. The kinda guy that who when someone was threatening to come to my house and rape me, would say "Hah. Tell him you don't think he could get you off."

He had a cover story that he was in his 30s but had confessed to one nice lady that he was only 1* or so at the time. He and I became involved online and although I knew he how old he was, he didn't confess it for a few months, after which time I just said "Yes, I know."

I did get to meet him when his family traveled near to where I live, we met and fooled around a bit in the front seat of a car. I think he was 1* at the time.

Seriously, I couldn't have corrupted this guy, if anything I rehabilitated him.
Click to expand...
 
Recidiva said:
The question's come up lately in "Game Of Thrones" where there's a rape scene.


(Spoiler alert if you haven't watched)


In this case, Sansa Stark is raped, off camera. People are boycotting the show for portraying violence against women.

Interesting because:

In the book, it is soooo much worse. HBO rewrote this scene, which was originally experienced by another character, Jeyne Poole, who is supposed to pretend to be Arya. This woman is terrified, abused and tortured, as was Theon. I can't even go into it, it's so bad. It's against site rules bad. So why wasn't the show boycotted when Theon was tortured? It's violence against men. He had a dick in a box (not in the book) but why wasn't the show boycotted every single episode for violence against everybody?

I'm not boycotting because I'm fairly convinced it actually has nothing to do with the book anyway. I have read them over and over. Game of Thrones, the books, are superior writing. They're worth reading. He does excellent characterization, dialogue and plot.

Violence, rape, abuse, these things are historical and documented. Yes, HBO's Game of Thrones is exploitive and violent. No doubt. Why would you be watching it in the first place if you were upset by portrayals of things that happen in reality...plus dragons?

Trying to figure out the line here where you could have made it to the fifth season and now require a trigger warning.

At which point does avoiding portrayal of horrible things mean that you're unwilling to confront the fact that horrible things happen? Who is willing to blame an author for condoning it, compared to respecting them for representing it accurately?

I understand not watching yourself (Noor won't watch because of violence and I'm good with that) but what brings you to decide nobody should watch it?
Click to expand...

I think the difference was Theon was a bad man who betrayed the Starks and "got what he deserved" whereas Sansa is a good girl who has had nothing but bad luck and heartache since leaving Winterfell in the first book.

I don't think as highly of GRRM as an author as you do. I think he creates too many characters and plot lines and doesn't develop them coherently. I think Patrick Rothfuss is a far better author.
 
zipman said:
I think the difference was Theon was a bad man who betrayed the Starks and "got what he deserved" whereas Sansa is a good girl who has had nothing but bad luck and heartache since leaving Winterfell in the first book.

I don't think as highly of GRRM as an author as you do. I think he creates too many characters and plot lines and doesn't develop them coherently. I think Patrick Rothfuss is a far better author.
Click to expand...

Nobody deserves that. I think it has to do with accepting violence against men but not women. If we're going to be upset by violence, let's be upset by all of it.

I read a lot of Patrick Rothfuss, a few books into the Name of the Wind series. It's good, but not great. If he talked one more time about being broke I was really going to put it down. I like the potential of the character, I like the world building, I don't like the repetition and the fact that someone really smart shouldn't be making the same mistakes over and over out of "niceness."

"You're not good, you're not bad, you're just nice. I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right. I'm the witch. You're the world." - Into the Woods

I know GRRM grabbed a lot of his plot from history, and that's what makes him also unique in the sense that for every bit of implausible he can open a book and show you where it happened once (not the dragons, though.)
 
Forget even about violence toward men vs. women -- Game of Thrones' version of the Red Wedding had Robb Stark's pregnant wife disembowelled with a sword, if I recall correctly. It's not like there hasn't been violence against women on the show on a considerably higher level than this.
 
Recidiva said:
Nobody deserves that. I think it has to do with accepting violence against men but not women. If we're going to be upset by violence, let's be upset by all of it.

I read a lot of Patrick Rothfuss, a few books into the Name of the Wind series. It's good, but not great. If he talked one more time about being broke I was really going to put it down. I like the potential of the character, I like the world building, I don't like the repetition and the fact that someone really smart shouldn't be making the same mistakes over and over out of "niceness."

"You're not good, you're not bad, you're just nice. I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right. I'm the witch. You're the world." - Into the Woods

I know GRRM grabbed a lot of his plot from history, and that's what makes him also unique in the sense that for every bit of implausible he can open a book and show you where it happened once (not the dragons, though.)
Click to expand...

Please, books 4&5 of GoT were almost unbearable to get through. I just hate not finishing a book so I stuck to it. There was maybe one good page for every ten he wrote.

I like the fact that he came up with some novel ideas like Summer and Winter lasting for years but he really isn't very good. He also jumps around so much due to his multitude of half developed story lines that it is hard to follow. Rothfuss on the other hand, tells a story beautifully. I get your repetition gripe about being broke, but if you've ever been dead broke, thoughts of money are paramount on your mind.
 
CyranoJ said:
Forget even about violence toward men vs. women -- Game of Thrones' version of the Red Wedding had Robb Stark's pregnant wife disembowelled with a sword, if I recall correctly. It's not like there hasn't been violence against women on the show on a considerably higher level than this.
Click to expand...

“I can describe an axe entering a human skull in great explicit detail and no one will blink twice at it. I provide a similar description, just as detailed, of a penis entering a vagina, and I get letters about it and people swearing off. To my mind this is kind of frustrating, it’s madness. Ultimately, in the history of [the] world, penises entering vaginas have given a lot of people a lot of pleasure; axes entering skulls, well, not so much.” - GRRM

Yeah, so he's thought about this, so do I.

As a game player it is a bit of a disconnect to see that I can pretty much murder with impunity and take people's stuff, but if I start swearing or having sex, then whoah, hey. Back it up there.
 
zipman said:
Please, books 4&5 of GoT were almost unbearable to get through. I just hate not finishing a book so I stuck to it. There was maybe one good page for every ten he wrote.

I like the fact that he came up with some novel ideas like Summer and Winter lasting for years but he really isn't very good. He also jumps around so much due to his multitude of half developed story lines that it is hard to follow. Rothfuss on the other hand, tells a story beautifully. I get your repetition gripe about being broke, but if you've ever been dead broke, thoughts of money are paramount on your mind.
Click to expand...

I'm with you there, I think 3 was the best. I really hated 4 and 5 the first time through and then I listened to it a few more times to figure out WHY I hated it. I figured out that I really dislike the things you're mentioning, creating too many characters and not really telling full stories about them. I'm not saying he's the best at everything, because no. I did however take a guy on Caustic Soda podcast's advice - read it like a series of short stories, don't expect them to match up or connect. When I did that it got much better for me as an experience and I also realized my shortcomings as an author or reader by expecting certain things in a story that I am not owed.

I've been dead broke and I understand the predisposition to angst. I just got kinda bored by it. Especially since, face it, he could have solved all of the problems other ways.

It's a bit like my impatience with Anna Karenina "Come on, lady, go be a pirate, stop complaining!"

I agree that it's a good story, it's just not my favorite and I didn't read through it multiple times the way I do with others.
 
Odd to hear people say that sort of thing, A Feast for Crows was one of the best reads of the series for me. I thought Dance With Dragons was pretty excellent too save that Danaerys' storyline dragged.
 
CyranoJ said:
Odd to hear people say that sort of thing, A Feast for Crows was one of the best reads of the series for me. I thought Dance With Dragons was pretty excellent too save that Danaerys' storyline dragged.
Click to expand...

I think because strategically my two favorite people got really dumb. Nothing Danaerys or Tyrion did made much sense. Nothing like gaining the Unsullied or getting out of the Eyrie.

It was just "Hey these guys want me to...yeah...okay. Well. I'm going to think about it while this other crap happens to me and I can't do much about it."
 
Recidiva said:
I'm with you there, I think 3 was the best. I really hated 4 and 5 the first time through and then I listened to it a few more times to figure out WHY I hated it. I figured out that I really dislike the things you're mentioning, creating too many characters and not really telling full stories about them. I'm not saying he's the best at everything, because no. I did however take a guy on Caustic Soda podcast's advice - read it like a series of short stories, don't expect them to match up or connect. When I did that it got much better for me as an experience and I also realized my shortcomings as an author or reader by expecting certain things in a story that I am not owed.

I've been dead broke and I understand the predisposition to angst. I just got kinda bored by it. Especially since, face it, he could have solved all of the problems other ways.

It's a bit like my impatience with Anna Karenina "Come on, lady, go be a pirate, stop complaining!"

I agree that it's a good story, it's just not my favorite and I didn't read through it multiple times the way I do with others.
Click to expand...

Here's why I like him:
1) The pace of his story telling is superb. His story flows beautifully, never too fast, rarely too slow and makes sense.

2) Kvothe is a fully developed character - complex and deep.

3) Music as a factor in the storyline - I don't ever recall reading a fantasy book where music had such a strong presence in the plot.

4) Magic - I love how "magic" in this world is more of a science with rules and consequences than in other stories

5) The University - I love the way it is presented and developed.
 
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