the marks of a slave

eastern sun said:

Please, argue with me! How else will we learn anything?

I don't perceive myself as independently as you, perhaps.

Strength and power are related to each other quite closely in my view, as in the relative strength or weakness of a given force indicates the nature of its "power."

I think of the kind of internal strength that you are referring to as "will," but it could also be a strength of "habit" as well.

Why is it that you feel you do not have power to control or effect change externally?

Maybe you aren't recognizing the power that you actually have, because you're seeking to change things that are - in fact - beyond your individual control.

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I have strength to stand when others will fall, I can help others stand, but I have not the power to make them want to. I have the strength to do what is right rather than what is accepted. I can be the rock in the current but cannot change it. I can change things in my life and about myself for better or worse.
Other people seem to have the ability to create ripples in the pond of life. They can influence or manipulate the opinions, circumstances and ideas of others in even small ways. That to me is power. That is what I do not have.
I also have absolutely no willpower. Don't put a piece of chocolate or a pair of shoes in front of me because I won't be able to say no.

eta - A classic example of this: There will be a problem at work. I will offer a solution. I will be unheard or brushed off. Someone else will make the same suggestion a few minutes later and it will be applauded. This happens to me all the time. I have not the power to make myself heard.

intothewoods said:

The part in bold is soooo true -- First of all, I totally shut down if I feel like something is off. With my husband though, something else happens. Sometimes I am afraid to express my desire. And it's weird because he really knows me better than anyone else, so you would think that I would feel the most comfortable with him, right? I know I'm safe with him. I don't know why I do it other than perhaps it's difficult to express something that true. Something like that.

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*Nod*
Sometimes it feels that because he knows me better than anybody, keeping my deepest desires to myself is the last chance to keep something private, just for me and me only.

And with my Hubby specifically there is the fear that, depending on his place on the mood swing scale, it could be taken badly or too literally. *sigh*

To give oneself in slavery to someone else, you have got to be convinced of their brilliance. Inspired by it. Because then, it's easy.

eastern sun said:

Babies change things. Dramatically.

After our first child was born, I became the baby's slave. He's 16 now, and the two of them are still planting flags all over the territory that is me, trying to determine which one will rule the world.

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Do your son and husband have power struggles over you? Your time? That's so interesting. Our family dynamics are different since I'm no longer married to my firstborn's dad -- and besides my ex isn't at all into ruling anyone else. I wonder what that would have been like for me. Your dynamics with your first (maybe especially with a boy?) are so totally different from the one you have with your other kids.

eastern sun said:

Yes.



It's true. I think it's a very vulnerable position to take.

For me, there's a feeling like I'm going to die. Or cease to exist, in some way, like rida suggested.

And I've discovered, though I don't live in this state perpetually, that it is possible to "cease to exist" and still keep moving, making sound, taking up space, in all ways "existing" except as an internal psychic structure.

And, if for some reason, I am startled or frightened in that state, it doesn't take long at all for me to grab onto some kind of idea, like a life preserver, and form myself around it.

Sometimes I have thought that what I want more than anything in the world is to live in that "ceasing to exist" place all the time. But it hasn't happened yet. Inevitably, something frightens me back into shape again.

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I actually don't think I have ever had that "ceasing to exist" feeling. Shit, no wonder I suck at zen buddhism. Wait, I'm kind of serious! How disappointing. I really don't think I ever get there. I aquiesce to him, but that very word suggests that I really retain power over myself at all times and just sort of grant him what he wants. I have to sit with that for a while.

rida said:

*Nod*
Sometimes it feels that because he knows me better than anybody, keeping my deepest desires to myself is the last chance to keep something private, just for me and me only.

And with my Hubby specifically there is the fear that, depending on his place on the mood swing scale, it could be taken badly or too literally. *sigh*

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I think for me it is embarassment to be that naked.


Because evidently it's all about me!

1. the concepts of being happy and of being in one's rightful place have nothing to do with one another.

2. just because one miraculously finds a community in which others self-identify with the same labels, does not mean one will find a sense of belonging or commonality with said community.

(and, that's okay.)

ownedsubgal said:

1. the concepts of being happy and of being in one's rightful place have nothing to do with one another.

2. just because one miraculously finds a community in which others self-identify with the same labels, does not mean one will find a sense of belonging or commonality with said community.

(and, that's okay.)

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This is true. Being in one's rightful place can lead to all kinds of discomfort.

Have you ever found, though, that being in one's rightful place leads to greater peace of mind? Or a sense of ease? Even in the midst of physical or emotional pain?

(I always enjoy your voice, osg, and admire the strength of your mind.)

knot_sweet said:

I have strength to stand when others will fall, I can help others stand, but I have not the power to make them want to. I have the strength to do what is right rather than what is accepted. I can be the rock in the current but cannot change it. I can change things in my life and about myself for better or worse.

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Yes.

knot_sweet said:

Other people seem to have the ability to create ripples in the pond of life. They can influence or manipulate the opinions, circumstances and ideas of others in even small ways. That to me is power. That is what I do not have.

eta - A classic example of this: There will be a problem at work. I will offer a solution. I will be unheard or brushed off. Someone else will make the same suggestion a few minutes later and it will be applauded. This happens to me all the time. I have not the power to make myself heard.

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I would like to suggest that you do have the ability to create ripples, you just can't control the way those ripples respond to the obstacles they encounter. For instance, it is possible to interpret your experience at work as that met by those who are discriminated against. The idea you offered was still a ripple, but had to be picked up by the one who would be heard by your management.

Try an experiment. When you interact with strangers on the street, notice the effect your mood has. I firmly believe that if we meet others with a smile or a frown, it can make a very big difference in the world.

I acted as though I was invisible for many, many years. I wasn't. Even though I felt as though I was.

I am also of the opinion that it is important to keep taking actions, keep voicing one's opinions, etc. because we rarely know which ripple we set in motion is actually important.

knot_sweet said:

I also have absolutely no willpower. Don't put a piece of chocolate or a pair of shoes in front of me because I won't be able to say no.

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This may be why you think you don't have power. When we encounter a force stronger than "ourself," which can be internal as well as external, we start defining ourselves by our reactions to it.

ownedsubgal said:

1. the concepts of being happy and of being in one's rightful place have nothing to do with one another.

2. just because one miraculously finds a community in which others self-identify with the same labels, does not mean one will find a sense of belonging or commonality with said community.

(and, that's okay.)

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I think it depends on what "rightful" means to you. There can be the connotation that it's sort of ordained by God or fate or something like that, but I don't believe in fate and I'm agnostic. So my only "rightful" place would be a place in which I'm content -- or, maybe, yes, happy.

There has been a lot of talk about happiness in the past few years and whether it's a matter of personality or choice or what. There's that book -- the Happiness Project -- I think. I'm really of two minds on this and I find the subject kind of interesting. I admit I found the book totally annoying and couldn't get past the first chapter. On the other hand, I have been pretty actively making changes in my life that are definitely in large measure based on what makes me happy.

I have similar thoughts about positive thinking, though I'm probably more negative about positive thinking. Ha.

intothewoods said:

Do your son and husband have power struggles over you? Your time?

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Yes, they do. It's a defining characteristic of our family.

intothewoods said:

I actually don't think I have ever had that "ceasing to exist" feeling. Shit, no wonder I suck at zen buddhism. Wait, I'm kind of serious! How disappointing. I really don't think I ever get there. I acquiesce to him, but that very word suggests that I really retain power over myself at all times and just sort of grant him what he wants. I have to sit with that for a while.

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My husband thinks my son and I are two of the least submissive people on earth when it comes to meeting his demands. And yet I am his slave.

We've been arguing and chuckling about this for years.

intothewoods said:

I think for me it is embarassment to be that naked.

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Me, too.

(I love that you said this. . . )

Me: (in the middle of a heated argument about parenting) . . . What you can't see with your high and mighty -

Him: That's it. End of conversation. Nobody talks to me like that.

(long silence, while he reads and I work on my jigsaw puzzle, both of us steaming)

Me: Can I tell you if I apologize first?

Him: Yes, . . .

Me: I'm sorry I spoke to you that way. I shouldn't have said that.

Him: Ok.

(and I go on to make the point that I wanted to make, which he agreed was a valid point. conflict over. plan to address the problem made.)

Ever since I came back home, I've been struggling with feelings of...I don't know what. Maybe inadequacy? Or actually, strike that. Instead of being inadequate, apparently I'm being everything I'm expected to be and doing everything I'm expected to do, but it leaves me lacking. I feel like I'm not being used to the maximum.

I have so much more to give, sexually, emotionally, intellectually, but he doesn't seem to want it. And it seems like I'm not able to accept what he's taking from me and just keep the rest for myself.

I've been trying to keep myself busy, but there's only so much cleaning and cooking I can do. The place is spotless, the closets are organized, a lot of extra stuff has been donated to charity, I even went to another town to help a friend clean her place. I have an incredible need to feel myself useful and used. I'm craving all energy being sucked out of me. I'm craving that feeling of emptiness and nothingness, so that I can start anew.

He says he knows how I feel and it seems to make him smile. Then he goes off and cleans the bathroom and that leaves me with one less task to do.

seela said:

Ever since I came back home, I've been struggling with feelings of...I don't know what. Maybe inadequacy? Or actually, strike that. Instead of being inadequate, apparently I'm being everything I'm expected to be and doing everything I'm expected to do, but it leaves me lacking. I feel like I'm not being used to the maximum.

I have so much more to give, sexually, emotionally, intellectually, but he doesn't seem to want it. And it seems like I'm not able to accept what he's taking from me and just keep the rest for myself.

I've been trying to keep myself busy, but there's only so much cleaning and cooking I can do. The place is spotless, the closets are organized, a lot of extra stuff has been donated to charity, I even went to another town to help a friend clean her place. I have an incredible need to feel myself useful and used. I'm craving all energy being sucked out of me. I'm craving that feeling of emptiness and nothingness, so that I can start anew.

He says he knows how I feel and it seems to make him smile. Then he goes off and cleans the bathroom and that leaves me with one less task to do.

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It's hard when what he wants from you is not the experience you've been wanting yourself. I've struggled with that many times over the years.

My solution - for what it's worth - has been to look for other, diverse ways to give myself the experiences I'm seeking (i.e. jobs, volunteer work, creative work, hobbies, friendships, even lovers - with his blessing). Then, as I build my own life, independent from him - his demands invariably increase, his desire for my attention increases, and I am caught with more of what I've "craved" than I can possibly handle.

(And often, the experience that I am seeking is not of a sexual nature at all. I've just caught glimpses of it through my sexuality, but the paths in its direction are many - all of them scenic and worth the traveling.)

It is also, in my understanding, a fundamental quality of the human experience to feel that sense of dissatisfaction, or lack. I've found that folding it into the slave experience was useful, because it is a reminder that "satisfaction" of all my desires is not the goal; neither is it, in my experience, even possible. I need to have a different measuring stick to gauge my life and state of mind.

(Welcome home )

eastern sun said:

Why? Power is an exciting force to play with.

May I suggest that perhaps you are just having a hard time finding someone who is more powerful than you?

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I haven't figured it out yet. I imagine that love will leave me powerless one day, because without that L-type emotion, all my experiences are nothing more than me being an actress (like the time I laughed by accident over the knee). It wasn't real to me.
I enjoy reading the thoughts, and experiences here.

finding your thread really interesting.... it made me smile so thankyou
your relationship seems quite sweet in an odd way
xx

seragirl said:

I love this thread and wanted to acknowledge all the wonderful contributors.

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missfangbanger said:

finding your thread really interesting.... it made me smile so thank you
your relationship seems quite sweet in an odd way
xx

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Thank you. It's nice to know that you are finding it interesting. It encourages me to keep writing.

Always free free to throw your own thoughts and experiences into the mix.

sweepthefloor said:

I haven't figured it out yet. I imagine that love will leave me powerless one day, because without that L-type emotion, all my experiences are nothing more than me being an actress (like the time I laughed by accident over the knee). It wasn't real to me.

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The very thought of love leaving me powerless made me chafe at the bit. Tug at the ropes. Put on my running shoes.

But I think you're on to something. I think love is akin to surrender.

eastern sun said:

The very thought of love leaving me powerless made me chafe at the bit. Tug at the ropes. Put on my running shoes.

But I think you're on to something. I think love is akin to surrender.

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It's my last hypothesis!

eastern sun said:

My solution - for what it's worth - has been to look for other, diverse ways to give myself the experiences I'm seeking (i.e. jobs, volunteer work, creative work, hobbies, friendships, even lovers - with his blessing). Then, as I build my own life, independent from him - his demands invariably increase, his desire for my attention increases, and I am caught with more of what I've "craved" than I can possibly handle.

(And often, the experience that I am seeking is not of a sexual nature at all. I've just caught glimpses of it through my sexuality, but the paths in its direction are many - all of them scenic and worth the traveling.)

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Yes, I've been keeping myself busy with other things as well. I know a lot of my feelings stem from the stress of having my last, for this degree, exams at the university and just wanting to have some kind of release from being an intellectual being for a change.

And the more I have done things and met people outside home, the more I have noticed him starting to demand of me, too. But it still doesn't seem to be enough to create the hollow emptiness I'm craving. It isn't sexual, just like you mentioned your cravings often haven't been, but instead there's this weird (for me) motif of sacrifice.

Not making demands and accepting what he's taking has always proven to be the most difficult part of our relationship for me. Even more so than accepting what he gives me. There's often a part of me that wishes to give more, aspires to be more and isn't willing to understand, he doesn't need or want it.

He has started to do some house work. He had to do it by himself while I was gone, but I had assumed things would go back to normal once I come back. He keeps on cleaning and tidying up places, if he notices something needs to be done. Last night I asked him why he still does it even now that I'm here and am more than willing to do the dishes and so on.

He said he's screwing with my mind by taking away many of the sensible things I could occupy my time with and leaves me with my whirling thoughts and needs that go unsatisfied. Because it makes me restless and he likes to watch it unravel.

eastern sun said:

(Welcome home )

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Thank you!

Your posts always give me a lot to think about and I love reading your thread.

seela said:

Yes, I've been keeping myself busy with other things as well. I know a lot of my feelings stem from the stress of having my last, for this degree, exams at the university and just wanting to have some kind of release from being an intellectual being for a change.

And the more I have done things and met people outside home, the more I have noticed him starting to demand of me, too. But it still doesn't seem to be enough to create the hollow emptiness I'm craving. It isn't sexual, just like you mentioned your cravings often haven't been, but instead there's this weird (for me) motif of sacrifice.

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Yeah, me too.

seela said:

He said he's screwing with my mind by taking away many of the sensible things I could occupy my time with and leaves me with my whirling thoughts and needs that go unsatisfied. Because it makes me restless and he likes to watch it unravel.

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Uh-oh. Don't underestimate the entertainment value of your unravelling.

My husband is not a sadist, per se, doesn't enjoy inflicting pain outright, but he loves to watch me encounter my own edges. I used to wonder if it was because it made him feel better about himself to see me on edge, or that he could feel his own power more acutely to see me lose my comfort zone. Or if I just make really funny sounds and movements when I'm squirming or flailing psychologically (I never underestimate his desire for a laugh at my expense).

I've found it helpful to just be honest about who I am (even when "who I am" falls far short of any norm or ideal). I figure the more he knows about how I react to different circumstances, the better off we'll both be.

But sometimes it has put me in really awkward states.

(And, if I'm not nice, he doesn't like me.)

"I'm going to turn you out like a pimp does a whore."

Of our neighbor, the one all the guys around here crush on. . .

Him: Speaking of sub . . . you know those sad eyes? For her, it is hell. For you, it will be heaven on earth.

Me: Why is it hell for her?

Him: Because she can never leave.

Me: But I can?

Him: Yes.

And I think to myself as I have always thought, that her sad eyes are due to her loneliness. To the fact that the men have always left her for reasons she can't explain.

To him, they signal her vulnerability. And her willingness to open for him.

Me: I'm disappointed . . . (long pause) . . . about not being included.

Him: (silence)

(and all I can think is . . . "well, I know he heard me" . . .)

He said, "Brave girl. You did much better than me with this shit."

And, the pain went away. Completely. I felt so proud of myself.

It came back a little bit later, but that was the first time he ever said "brave girl."

And I'm engraving it on this wall.