He's not a Dom....

I think the points and opinions I was trying to express were missed. I'll try again.

Ok first and foremost, my example of my debate with my ex was simply one to describe that he could not fathom others "wet paint" until he touched it himself. The debate was about why people in his life (other than me) were "freaking out" about his aggressive boundary ignoring behavior that he found to be reasonable behaviour. I did not intend to suggest the OP was in or expressed that she was in any threat of physical harm.

That said, when SA suggested that the OPs emotional reactions were possibly due to faults in her behavior or even sense of self while I concurrently found her response of being frustrated with the lack of (what I have interpreted as) respect completely reasonable, I was compelled to respond directly to it. My intention was to suggest that given that everything that the OP stated about her "wet paint" made me believe that the ex was not behaving reasonably (regardless of his kinky letter size) and that her emotional response to all if it seemed reasonable to me. In addition, having an ex that ignored boundaries for attempting continued contact was something cringe makingly familiar to me, and maybe that made it easier for me to believe.

SA, my intention was to say that given how you responded to her reaction as maybe there is something false or wrong with her made me think that maybe you could not believe her paint was wet because you have simply not had experienced anything like it. The behavior of the ex and the current seemed to raise flags for me too, so it was odd to me that I read in you post the suggestion that her strained compliance was actually questioning her submissiveness. I sense from your later posts that you would agree that it is our job to protect, honor and nourish ourselves regardless of what labels we wear. It is in forums like these where there are so many more readers than there are posters, that securing safety and establishing trust with someone that is trustworthy is critical for all of us to champion, but maybe especially for those that have a need to follow. When boundaries are ignored, trust is strained or broken and that simply has to be addressed.

If someone finds themselves questioning their comfort and safety and find a need to act on that, it does not make them less submissive, it just keeps them safe and healthy. I am not less sexual if I'm miserable dating a certain guy and need to break up with him, I'm just with the wrong guy. The ways I have had to wrestle with my identity and what felt right while navigating a life that went entirely different directions than I had planned should probably have me ready for the WWF any day now... So yeah, it struck a nerve with me. FWIW, my post was actually intended in a much more passive observation tone than I guess it came across.

Lastly, with all that said, my intention of using dragonflies and water bugs as an example was to show that I generally disagree that we are only what we may someday realize or transform into. We are never without identity, even if we lack the clarity of definition or understanding of who we are well enough to express or even live into it. I think humanity could benefit from the practice of allowing acceptance "as is" instead of a "only if" or "someday when".

I hope that helps. :rose:


I don't think we disagree really. I didn't mean to suggest that there was something wrong or false with her. However, it seemed to me that her biggest issue was with how her ex was behaving in general with other people in their "scene". She was making judgments about who he is or isn't. Just like its not for me to say who is a true sub it isn't for her to say who is a poser.

The stalky part is a different matter. However, my read was that he wasn't being stalky with her but with her new partner, in which case the main issue is with the new partner.

The wet paint point is valid. Perhaps I don't see the wet paint.....and perhaps you see all paint as wet. In this case the paint was not wet. We each project our experiences. You are sensitive to the abusive partner. I am sensitive to the ex who thinks it is their place to continue to criticize a partner they aren't with anymore. He is clinging to her (albeit via the new partner) in an unhealthy way but so too is she clinging to her disdain for the ex in an unhealthy way.

Again I don't think we really disagree on water bugs and dragonflies. We are what we are and what we will be and everything in between. My perspective was really just on the concept of change. To stretch the metaphor I wouldn't even say that the water bug is irreversibly destined to become a dragonfly and certainly not that it should deny its water bugness - only that it is unlikely to become an eagle.
 
The stalky part is a different matter. However, my read was that he wasn't being stalky with her but with her new partner, in which case the main issue is with the new partner.

That's either oblivious or mealymouthed silliness. If her (the OP's) new partner were dating any other woman on the planet would the ex have a shred of interest in what this guy is doing?

I'm not saying SHE IS IN DANGER but I am saying that a lot of dangerous situations start looking exactly like this one. I'm saying that ANYTHING that noses into a woman's (or man's, fuck it, stalkers can be anybody) boundaries like this right after a breakup is a make or break event of sorts and a test, maybe a slightly harmless one, maybe not. Any contact with the ex is happening only to insinuate itself into her sphere, and to LET HER KNOW IT - don't be ridiculous.

Look, I was riding the same train as you completely up until the "and he's starting to talk to my ex about our intimate doings" - maybe he's just kinky and not in your flavor - well that's fine up until the issues become not his identity but his boundaries. That is some motherfucking wet paint - if it's not wet it's only because the OP managed to get out a hair dryer and change that situation with a laying down of the law. Early. Kind. Rational. Decisive. Passing this test may not guarantee a person's safety, but it can nip some people's craziness in the bud early and demonstrate "I am not that person who's going to dance this dance with you." And you're saying "well then you're not really a sub" for her doing this? Seriously WTF.

I'm all for people who may not have great game and the best of social skillz - they can be Dominant too, they can do BDSM, but I'm always amazed at the swiftness with which inappropriate behavior is excused by "oh, well this entire Dominance thing is so NEW to him!" It's usually a him, though there are femdoms who shouldn't be hitting anyone with an isotoner slipper let alone a whip out there with no critique. So many other women have been disgusted out of the scene that that's who's left. M/f couples make fun of them, new subs get hurt by them, but it would be rude not to invite Goddess Goofy to the party, right?

There are some certain behavioral norms that we don't get to stray outside of simply because we have kink. One of them would be that we get to control our sexual boundaries - having someone you don't want insinuating himself into your sexuality would not thrill you, and it doesn't thrill her either. It's not consent, it's not cool, and it's not defensible.
 
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I don't think we disagree really. I didn't mean to suggest that there was something wrong or false with her. However, it seemed to me that her biggest issue was with how her ex was behaving in general with other people in their "scene". She was making judgments about who he is or isn't. Just like its not for me to say who is a true sub it isn't for her to say who is a poser.

The stalky part is a different matter. However, my read was that he wasn't being stalky with her but with her new partner, in which case the main issue is with the new partner.

The wet paint point is valid. Perhaps I don't see the wet paint.....and perhaps you see all paint as wet. In this case the paint was not wet. We each project our experiences. You are sensitive to the abusive partner. I am sensitive to the ex who thinks it is their place to continue to criticize a partner they aren't with anymore. He is clinging to her (albeit via the new partner) in an unhealthy way but so too is she clinging to her disdain for the ex in an unhealthy way.

Again I don't think we really disagree on water bugs and dragonflies. We are what we are and what we will be and everything in between. My perspective was really just on the concept of change. To stretch the metaphor I wouldn't even say that the water bug is irreversibly destined to become a dragonfly and certainly not that it should deny its water bugness - only that it is unlikely to become an eagle.


Actually, you stated that her emotional struggles with a frustrating situation were a sort of test of her submissiveness. This to me seemed to imply that if she were a "true sub" she would be experiencing the situation differently. I would argue that you were suggesting that her struggles were due to an incorrect self identity as a sub, instead of her being a sub just dealing with an ex (or current SO) behaving inappropriately. Maybe you could not see that to me this smells quite similar to her saying her ex could not be a true dom?

The theme of so many posters that I can totally agree with is that this is not about who demonstrates a stereotype the bestest, but that they are simply a bad match that broke up. This seems like a sound decision given all that I have read here, but that the break is both reasonably complicated by shared community and children and that the people involved might still be sorting out boundaries. No one gets the right to define you but you, however it is your responsibility to define and hold the boundaries that protect and honor your health and happiness.

I'm a bit puzzled by your delineation that the stalking behavior was not about the OP. Like... maybe the ex had NO IDEA the OP was dating the new guy and seriously saw him as a domly mentor to learn from? Maybe it's as simple as both of them were somehow randomly attracted to the new guy? Possible, sure... But what about it being about reasonable boundaries being ignored to display dominance through aggression to prove true domliness in debate of her denial of it? Or maybe it's just button pushing made possible by a decades old relationship? I have my opinion, but I think we can all agree that only they can truly know. But if you are going to say that even with all she knows and has stated about being in a relationship with him that she is not allowed to define his identity, then you are by default not actually allowed to define hers.

I would like you to explain what you meant when you said I am sensitive to the abusive partner. At no point have I labeled any actions as "abusive" or people as abusers so I don't understand what you mean. The ex ignoring socially typical protocol of not communing with the new SO following a breakup could be due to many reasons that only he can truly answer, but the chasm between being rude and annoying and actual abuse is a lot wider a jump for me to make, and not one that I have taken here.

Regarding the OP being unhealthy in her emotional entanglements with the ex lingering, I would like to offer the thought that it's pretty typical to embrace the things about the ex that are not great in order to help you move on, but it also needs to be said that clinging to what you were attracted to is simply the other side of the same coin. We all have to find what works to help us to grieve and let go. Anger is normal and healthy part of that process. For some people this looks like getting angry and lashing out at the ex, for others it's getting angry and lashing out at themselves. What this looks like varies as much as the rainbow of human personalities does. Neither is wrong, but actions taken that are charged by these feelings can be detrimental to one or both of the couple in the process of breaking up and moving on to whatever life will look like after. The behavior during the break up can sometimes serve as a warning of potential problems to come and it is wise to pay attention if this is someone you will have to interact with in the future. People will always eventually show you who they are, it is our job to believe them and respond (or not respond) accordingly.

To think that you can untangle decades of sharing in one moment and decision to move on cleanly is beautiful and ideal, but usually and unfortunately pretty unlikely. However, just because it's unpleasant or uncomfortable doesn't mean it's actually unhealthy. In fact in the case of truly processing and accepting the death of something, discomfort is a necessary step. I'm not going to declare that it is impossible, but I have never witnessed any human successfully process grief that was not at least at times horribly messy and unpleasant.

Which brings me back to wet paint and dragonflies. Yes, I tend to believe people's statements of how they experience something because regardless of universal objective truth, it IS how they experience it. For me, this is when I forgo my need for understanding or agreement and replace it with just holding space and offering compassion. It's interesting that you are affirming my point when you declare the paint was not wet when she stated that it is based on her experience. Of course you can only speak from your own experience, and I from mine. Both are "true" for us. Hers is true for her. "This is who I am" to me sounds more like "this is how I experience and identify myself", so who am I to argue when I hold my right to define myself in this world so righteously?

My point about identity while in the process of self discovery and self expression is that we don't benefit the water bug by defining and limiting it as just a dragonfly because of the way we humans like to neatly group and classify creatures in such true/false ways. These projections and judgements are so often way more about our comfort than anything else. I have seen the pain in the eyes of a "dragonfly looking creature" as they tormented with a deep knowing they are actually an "eagle". I'm not comfortable seeing a dragonfly as an eagle, but is it really impossible? Maybe the ex is experiencing this now as he works to heal himself, and if he were here and declared it, I would believe it to be valid for him. My discomfort with my disagreements based on my opinion of him are really more my problem than his.
 
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That's either oblivious or mealymouthed silliness. If her (the OP's) new partner were dating any other woman on the planet would the ex have a shred of interest in what this guy is doing?

I'm not saying SHE IS IN DANGER but I am saying that a lot of dangerous situations start looking exactly like this one. I'm saying that ANYTHING that noses into a woman's (or man's, fuck it, stalkers can be anybody) boundaries like this right after a breakup is a make or break event of sorts and a test, maybe a slightly harmless one, maybe not. Any contact with the ex is happening only to insinuate itself into her sphere, and to LET HER KNOW IT - don't be ridiculous.

Look, I was riding the same train as you completely up until the "and he's starting to talk to my ex about our intimate doings" - maybe he's just kinky and not in your flavor - well that's fine up until the issues become not his identity but his boundaries. That is some motherfucking wet paint - if it's not wet it's only because the OP managed to get out a hair dryer and change that situation with a laying down of the law. Early. Kind. Rational. Decisive. Passing this test may not guarantee a person's safety, but it can nip some people's craziness in the bud early and demonstrate "I am not that person who's going to dance this dance with you." And you're saying "well then you're not really a sub" for her doing this? Seriously WTF.

I'm all for people who may not have great game and the best of social skillz - they can be Dominant too, they can do BDSM, but I'm always amazed at the swiftness with which inappropriate behavior is excused by "oh, well this entire Dominance thing is so NEW to him!" It's usually a him, though there are femdoms who shouldn't be hitting anyone with an isotoner slipper let alone a whip out there with no critique. So many other women have been disgusted out of the scene that that's who's left. M/f couples make fun of them, new subs get hurt by them, but it would be rude not to invite Goddess Goofy to the party, right?

There are some certain behavioral norms that we don't get to stray outside of simply because we have kink. One of them would be that we get to control our sexual boundaries - having someone you don't want insinuating himself into your sexuality would not thrill you, and it doesn't thrill her either. It's not consent, it's not cool, and it's not defensible.


I agree that the ex's behaviour was inappropriate and I would be uncomfortable with it if I were her. Yes, of course it is a weasly way to get back into her life. I was only saying it was an issue with the current partner because I understood that what the ex was doing was interacting with the current partner, not her directly. That doesn't make it more acceptable.....it makes it more creepy in fact.

However, in her position I think my approach would be to the current partner. If she raises it with the ex that ventures into the realm of interfering or taking an interest in his life. Perhaps that intervention is justified given the ex's behaviour but it doesn't seem like the best approach. It amounts to her telling him who he can be friends with and engaging him in dialogue when she really just wants to get away. Of the two men, the one with an obligation to hear her concerns is the current partner. The ex shouldn't be behaving the way he is, but if she tries to tell him who he can associate with he can simply ignore her.

Personally I was having a hard time distinguishing between her ex's inappropriate interest in her life (talking to the new partner) and her inappropriate interest in her ex's life (I think he is just a poser). Frankly I don't know how women navigate this lifestyle - most of the guys I know can't distinguish between being Dom and just being an abusive asshole. My guess is that she knows lots of posers - why such an interest in the ex?

Fair enough that if she perceived a danger from the ex there is no way that she should let it carry-on - sub or not. And no a sub should ever expose themselves to danger in the name of kink. Yes, the point about being a true sub was aggressive but it was aimed at her own inclination to question her ex's Dom nature. It was in effect a challenge. Maybe not well articulated the intent was to elicit the response of "who the hell are you to say I am not Sub." To which the answer is "nobody, who the hell are you to assess whether your ex is a Dom". Is she more qualified to "judge" her ex than I am to "judge" her? Yes, in the sense that she knows him. No, in the sense that she is not in a place to be objective. And either way that aspect of him is not her business anymore. His creepy stalky tendencies are her business - but she said she had raised this with her current partner and was satisfied with his response. I doubt I would be satisfied but she said she is. So IF she is satisfied with the response and IF she feels there is no danger and IF she trusts the current partner's judgment (all points made by her) then yes she would submit to the current partner's judgment.

My issue with your comments to me was that you seemed to believe that by simply observing that feminism has had an impact on men I was somehow demeaning or overlooking the legitimate issues of women when that simply was not the case. I think that part of the point of feminism is to have an impact on men and that is good. And you know darn well that my comments were directed at trying to analyze what is up with the ex, not justify it or blame it on feminism.
 
Actually, you stated that her emotional struggles with a frustrating situation were a sort of test of her submissiveness. This to me seemed to imply that if she were a "true sub" she would be experiencing the situation differently. I would argue that you were suggesting that her struggles were due to an incorrect self identity as a sub, instead of her being a sub just dealing with an ex (or current SO) behaving inappropriately. Maybe you could not see that to me this smells quite similar to her saying her ex could not be a true dom?

The theme of so many posters that I can totally agree with is that this is not about who demonstrates a stereotype the bestest, but that they are simply a bad match that broke up. This seems like a sound decision given all that I have read here, but that the break is both reasonably complicated by shared community and children and that the people involved might still be sorting out boundaries. No one gets the right to define you but you, however it is your responsibility to define and hold the boundaries that protect and honor your health and happiness.

I'm a bit puzzled by your delineation that the stalking behavior was not about the OP. Like... maybe the ex had NO IDEA the OP was dating the new guy and seriously saw him as a domly mentor to learn from? Maybe it's as simple as both of them were somehow randomly attracted to the new guy? Possible, sure... But what about it being about reasonable boundaries being ignored to display dominance through aggression to prove true domliness in debate of her denial of it? Or maybe it's just button pushing made possible by a decades old relationship? I have my opinion, but I think we can all agree that only they can truly know. But if you are going to say that even with all she knows and has stated about being in a relationship with him that she is not allowed to define his identity, then you are by default not actually allowed to define hers.

I would like you to explain what you meant when you said I am sensitive to the abusive partner. At no point have I labeled any actions as "abusive" or people as abusers so I don't understand what you mean. The ex ignoring socially typical protocol of not communing with the new SO following a breakup could be due to many reasons that only he can truly answer, but the chasm between being rude and annoying and actual abuse is a lot wider a jump for me to make, and not one that I have taken here.

Regarding the OP being unhealthy in her emotional entanglements with the ex lingering, I would like to offer the thought that it's pretty typical to embrace the things about the ex that are not great in order to help you move on, but it also needs to be said that clinging to what you were attracted to is simply the other side of the same coin. We all have to find what works to help us to grieve and let go. Anger is normal and healthy part of that process. For some people this looks like getting angry and lashing out at the ex, for others it's getting angry and lashing out at themselves. What this looks like varies as much as the rainbow of human personalities does. Neither is wrong, but actions taken that are charged by these feelings can be detrimental to one or both of the couple in the process of breaking up and moving on to whatever life will look like after. The behavior during the break up can sometimes serve as a warning of potential problems to come and it is wise to pay attention if this is someone you will have to interact with in the future. People will always eventually show you who they are, it is our job to believe them and respond (or not respond) accordingly.

To think that you can untangle decades of sharing in one moment and decision to move on cleanly is beautiful and ideal, but usually and unfortunately pretty unlikely. However, just because it's unpleasant or uncomfortable doesn't mean it's actually unhealthy. In fact in the case of truly processing and accepting the death of something, discomfort is a necessary step. I'm not going to declare that it is impossible, but I have never witnessed any human successfully process grief that was not at least at times horribly messy and unpleasant.

Which brings me back to wet paint and dragonflies. Yes, I tend to believe people's statements of how they experience something because regardless of universal objective truth, it IS how they experience it. For me, this is when I forgo my need for understanding or agreement and replace it with just holding space and offering compassion. It's interesting that you are affirming my point when you declare the paint was not wet when she stated that it is based on her experience. Of course you can only speak from your own experience, and I from mine. Both are "true" for us. Hers is true for her. "This is who I am" to me sounds more like "this is how I experience and identify myself", so who am I to argue when I hold my right to define myself in this world so righteously?

My point about identity while in the process of self discovery and self expression is that we don't benefit the water bug by defining and limiting it as just a dragonfly because of the way we humans like to neatly group and classify creatures in such true/false ways. These projections and judgements are so often way more about our comfort than anything else. I have seen the pain in the eyes of a "dragonfly looking creature" as they tormented with a deep knowing they are actually an "eagle". I'm not comfortable seeing a dragonfly as an eagle, but is it really impossible? Maybe the ex is experiencing this now as he works to heal himself, and if he were here and declared it, I would believe it to be valid for him. My discomfort with my disagreements based on my opinion of him are really more my problem than his.


I did sense that me questioning her submissiveness was exactly like her questioning whether her ex was a true Dom. That was the point. If she was truly moving on why is she dwelling on this? Whether or not her ex is a poser is no longer her issue and as long as she is still in that head space it is legitimate to question whether she has moved on as she said.

I know it is hard to make the clean break. And maybe you are right that she is just working through that. But so too maybe is the ex. Put all this in the context of one key factor - the OP has stated she perceived no danger from the ex. If she did, everything I have said changes. But she said she sees no danger so us mapping the possibility onto the situation is beside the point. By not factoring that into my comments I am not dismissing or minimizing the implications of the possibility of danger - I am just accepting her at face value.

Of course the stalky behaviour is ALL about the OP. Personally it would bug the hell out of me. But she made it clear that she did not perceive a danger, had raised the issue with her current partner and was satisfied with the response - I certainly wouldn't be but she said she was. If we take that at face value we can see a situation where both ex partners are taking some time to let go. I think the best way to encourage that is to look at both sides.

Sorry It didn't mean you are sensitive to the abusive partner. I meant you are sensitive to the possibility of an abusive partner. I totally get that, but as noted above the OP already said that isn't a factor here. With that established I become more focussed on the partner who thinks she is still entitled to judge the portion of her ex's behaviour that has nothing to do with her.

We aren't in disagreement about water bugs and dragonflies. Nobody has the right to judge who we are, will be, want to be. I was making a case that I don't think humans change all that much and when we think we do it is often because we have just found out new things about ourselves that were always there. I have no qualifications - that is just an opinion.
 
Personally I was having a hard time distinguishing between her ex's inappropriate interest in her life (talking to the new partner) and her inappropriate interest in her ex's life (I think he is just a poser).

You can't? Try this on for size:

OP - yo, if you are still around, have you been making an effort to get in touch with his dates to find out what he does in bed with them?

No? Yes?

If no, then you have ample basis to distinguish. Unless you really have no sense of proportion and you're looking to justify a guy being inappropriate and creepy any way you can.

Her solo speculations taken onto a message board anonymously are in no way equivalent to him actually doing the shit he's doing.

Questioning someone's "true dom" status is dubious, but you know what? This woman did live with the guy, have kids with him, and spend a good chunk of her life invested in him, for better or for worse. I think it's OK if she's wonders aloud for five minutes if his interest is genuine or if he's using it as a pretext to get closer to her.

You're a random pulling an internet devil's advocacy douche move to make a point with no actual basis for assessing her submissiveness.

No difference? Really?

I also don't understand how this is a problem for the current partner and no longer hers, when the current partner would not even be in dialogue with this guy at all if he were dating anyone else on earth.

I don't get the idea that OP is about to launch some kind of disinformation campaign to any and all potential GF's of this dude. I do think she's legitimately wondering whether he's coming at BDSM as a desperate rebound move to get near her, asking some neutral parties who have seen this kind of thing come and go from the outside of these situations, and if someone asks her for a reference, I don't see why she shouldn't say what she thinks. Maybe he's a great Dom to someone with less spine and pushback than she has, maybe he's just trying to get some feeling of control in his life for a while. I have no problem if it's the latter.

This "dyed in the wool, genetic Dom" thing is so freaking overrated anyway. No problem if he IS using it as an emotional counterpoint and salve - just know what you're doing, why, and have a pair of EMT shears on hand. We're not curing cancer here.
 
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Not to mention there's an enormous difference between someone passing judgement about someone they know pretty damn well-- after years of marriage, say-- even if that judgement is colored by disapproval, which we can all take with a certain grain of salt as I did in my reply--

and someone saying what a True Sub would do.
 
Wow, this thread has taken on a life of it's own.

To address a couple of points raised:

My divorce is final in two weeks. The local BDSM community is thriving and busy, but not large. No matter what, when I go to events, conventions and parties locally, I am guaranteed to see my ex-husband. There's no way to avoid it. In almost 30 years together, he never, ever expressed an interest in all of it. Ever. He's lived his life as a normal, slightly geeky, meek guy who keeps his head down, gets the job done and goes home. Nothing wrong with that.

I, on the other hand, have been trying for years to introduce my submission into our relationship. I tried being specific, I tried being general, I tried everything. If I specifically asked for some type of behavior, I got it once, then never again unless I asked for it again. Okay, he's not into that stuff. No biggie. I keep exploring submission by reading and learning, etc... Meanwhile, my kids get older and I realize that even though we have a seriously disabled child, I do not have to stay married to him the rest of my life for her sake, and that my other two kids deserve a happy mom and a happy dad. Both of us were miserable for many reasons that have nothing at all to do with BDSM, sex or D/s. So, I make some mistakes and missteps, but begin exploring my submission in my local community and the "scene". I separate from my soon to be ex. For months, I go to meetings and classes, learn about things, begin slowly trying some things such as flogging, caning, paddling, etc. while also still learning about the mental aspects of dominance and submission.

One day, he tells me he wants to start exploring the lifestyle too. He starts going to the same classes, etc..while still begging me to come back to him. For months this goes on. On the big fetish website, he starts becoming friends with lots of people who I am friends with without telling them he's my soon to be ex. When they find out, most are very uncomfortable and find his behavior "creepy". (Their words, not mine.) Finally, he asks me not to go to a certain large event in our city because he's going and doesn't want to have to watch me scene with someone else. I say, well, if you're going to keep in the lifestyle, we have to get used to seeing each other places and just learn to deal with it, so I am still coming. That's when he went behind my back and contacted my partner without my knowledge, asking him to stop me from going to the event.

I am not interested in my ex's love life or what he does in the lifestyle OTHER than when he makes my friends and our mutual friends uncomfortable, and when he does inappropriate things like bringing my friends into a marital/divorce drama when they never asked to be part of all that crap. Deal with me directly, move on. He just knew that he wouldn't change my mind about going to the event, and he knew my partner would force me not to go, so he did what he did. So, my issue is not with WHAT he is doing per se if I felt it was authentic and honest and he wasn't involving innocent bystanders in the "warfare". I think he's about as dominant as a waterbug, but as someone said, a super super submissive person (which I actually am) might find him incredibly dominating. His business. I don't care. If he is a poser, that's on them to figure it out or accept it or whatever. However, if he is going to be emailing people behind my back, making mutual friends feel awkward and doing other things that I suspect to be done ONLY to cause me grief and awkwardness, that stuff, I do care about. I still believe to the bottom of my heart he is only doing this because he is scared and lonely and afraid to be alone and it's a way to get out and meet people and it has the side benefit that he can be right there watching me and seeing who I play with, what I do, etc. I will have no privacy from my children's father as I try new things, have inevitable ups and downs in relationships, etc. He'll be right there, seeing it all. How many divorced people do that? I asked him to consider finding a couple of local groups he likes and I would too, then he could have "his"and I would have "mine" and we'd occasionally share the big events, but he didn't want that. I'm left only being able to think that this meek, geeky guy who is heartbroken I have left him is trying to stay in my life any way he possibly can, even if it's just on the periphery watching me getting whipped or flogged. That makes me uncomfortable. Perhaps some of you here would say that what he does is none of my business, and if it's with others, sure. But if it's involving ME and my personal activities, it is my business, and it's why I am concerned. No interest ever in Dominance/submission, even the years I explored it within our marriage, then suddenly when he knows I am leaving him, he wants to be in it too. Yep, it makes me suspicious. Yep, I get it that it's none of my business. I am just figuring out how to be comfortable with him leering and watching me be intimate with other men, then seeing him the next day taking my kids out to lunch. If it is his passion to be in the lifestyle, I will learn to live with it. Meanwhile, I have to be convinced he's not doing it just to bother me. And I'm not, yet.

I do NOT think that is an inappropriate interest in his life. In my best whiny voice, it's about meeeee..... I want him to leave me alone. If he's gonna be a poser, go be a poser around someone else, not meee or my friends.....::stomps foot::
 
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I've got to go public with this one..;)

While every situation is different, in my experience, NO divorce is ever final. There's the whole alimony/spousal support thing and then since there are kids involved, there is the exchange and continual custody struggles.

I HATE divorce and I would caution you MeltformySir, to be careful with the activities which your soon to be Ex has access to in your life. You've mentioned his just now being interested in your lifestyle choices and also his interference with current play partners etc.

I'm seeing Red Flags everywhere. You never know if these attempts to "hold on to you" are just mere tactics to create a plethora of public opinions and indictments against you to use in any future legal proceedings. Remember, the public at large is not as understanding as everyone here on Lit. Some outsiders may even pass judgement that your gift of submission is actually a case for an unfit parent and could cause you even more heartache and create more stress with support and more importantly your family. ( while 50 Shades may have opened the discussion, the argument is far from over.). Submission is a gift that YOU control who and when you gift it. Unfortunately, some may look at your gift as a character flaw and use it against you instead of as the treasure of what submission REALLY is.

Maybe it's because of MY own trust issues but I would caution you to keep YOUR life separate from HIS in every way possible!

This loitering around in order to keep tabs on you and your proclivities, may not be what they appear and I would just caution you to search and know if the relationship is over, sever the ties as cleanly as possible. Don't allow additional control when it is NOT mutual and consensual.

Remember, there is a reason a surgeon uses a scalpel for surgery and not a pocket knife. It makes much less of a scar.:eek:

I don't mean to sound like I'm passing judgement on you, your Ex or anyone in your community both in and out of the lifestyle or your circle of friends. Sometimes, a reminder of ulterior motives needs to be examined for ALL parties involved.

Again, sorry for the heartache you are experiencing. I just wouldn't want to see a heartache turn into a shattered, bitter, resentful person who was taken advantage of as no fault of her own.

Best wishes to you and your future. *HUGS*:rose:

Sig
 
I honestly think anyone can be anything they want to be. Did you consider that maybe he really loves you and instead of assuming him a poser that he is trying to be able to be with you?

Trust is important to me. I guess I trust a bit too easily sometimes, but its always been important to me. I respect it when I see someone trying to relate to me. I'm sorry if I am sound harsh, but from an outsider looking in maybe he is honestly a dom and trying to be with you.

Then again I believe in fairy tales and such so I may be a bit nuts.

Edit: and thats what I get for not reading the entire post... Yup... silly me...
 
Wow, this thread has taken on a life of it's own.

To address a couple of points raised:

My divorce is final in two weeks. The local BDSM community is thriving and busy, but not large. No matter what, when I go to events, conventions and parties locally, I am guaranteed to see my ex-husband. There's no way to avoid it. In almost 30 years together, he never, ever expressed an interest in all of it. Ever. He's lived his life as a normal, slightly geeky, meek guy who keeps his head down, gets the job done and goes home. Nothing wrong with that.

I, on the other hand, have been trying for years to introduce my submission into our relationship. I tried being specific, I tried being general, I tried everything. If I specifically asked for some type of behavior, I got it once, then never again unless I asked for it again. Okay, he's not into that stuff. No biggie. I keep exploring submission by reading and learning, etc... Meanwhile, my kids get older and I realize that even though we have a seriously disabled child, I do not have to stay married to him the rest of my life for her sake, and that my other two kids deserve a happy mom and a happy dad. Both of us were miserable for many reasons that have nothing at all to do with BDSM, sex or D/s. So, I make some mistakes and missteps, but begin exploring my submission in my local community and the "scene". I separate from my soon to be ex. For months, I go to meetings and classes, learn about things, begin slowly trying some things such as flogging, caning, paddling, etc. while also still learning about the mental aspects of dominance and submission.

One day, he tells me he wants to start exploring the lifestyle too. He starts going to the same classes, etc..while still begging me to come back to him. For months this goes on. On the big fetish website, he starts becoming friends with lots of people who I am friends with without telling them he's my soon to be ex. When they find out, most are very uncomfortable and find his behavior "creepy". (Their words, not mine.) Finally, he asks me not to go to a certain large event in our city because he's going and doesn't want to have to watch me scene with someone else. I say, well, if you're going to keep in the lifestyle, we have to get used to seeing each other places and just learn to deal with it, so I am still coming. That's when he went behind my back and contacted my partner without my knowledge, asking him to stop me from going to the event.

I am not interested in my ex's love life or what he does in the lifestyle OTHER than when he makes my friends and our mutual friends uncomfortable, and when he does inappropriate things like bringing my friends into a marital/divorce drama when they never asked to be part of all that crap. Deal with me directly, move on. He just knew that he wouldn't change my mind about going to the event, and he knew my partner would force me not to go, so he did what he did. So, my issue is not with WHAT he is doing per se if I felt it was authentic and honest and he wasn't involving innocent bystanders in the "warfare". I think he's about as dominant as a waterbug, but as someone said, a super super submissive person (which I actually am) might find him incredibly dominating. His business. I don't care. If he is a poser, that's on them to figure it out or accept it or whatever. However, if he is going to be emailing people behind my back, making mutual friends feel awkward and doing other things that I suspect to be done ONLY to cause me grief and awkwardness, that stuff, I do care about. I still believe to the bottom of my heart he is only doing this because he is scared and lonely and afraid to be alone and it's a way to get out and meet people and it has the side benefit that he can be right there watching me and seeing who I play with, what I do, etc. I will have no privacy from my children's father as I try new things, have inevitable ups and downs in relationships, etc. He'll be right there, seeing it all. How many divorced people do that? I asked him to consider finding a couple of local groups he likes and I would too, then he could have "his"and I would have "mine" and we'd occasionally share the big events, but he didn't want that. I'm left only being able to think that this meek, geeky guy who is heartbroken I have left him is trying to stay in my life any way he possibly can, even if it's just on the periphery watching me getting whipped or flogged. That makes me uncomfortable. Perhaps some of you here would say that what he does is none of my business, and if it's with others, sure. But if it's involving ME and my personal activities, it is my business, and it's why I am concerned. No interest ever in Dominance/submission, even the years I explored it within our marriage, then suddenly when he knows I am leaving him, he wants to be in it too. Yep, it makes me suspicious. Yep, I get it that it's none of my business. I am just figuring out how to be comfortable with him leering and watching me be intimate with other men, then seeing him the next day taking my kids out to lunch. If it is his passion to be in the lifestyle, I will learn to live with it. Meanwhile, I have to be convinced he's not doing it just to bother me. And I'm not, yet.

I do NOT think that is an inappropriate interest in his life. In my best whiny voice, it's about meeeee..... I want him to leave me alone. If he's gonna be a poser, go be a poser around someone else, not meee or my friends.....::stomps foot::


Thanks. I can see why you want to get away from him. At best the situation is irritating and unhealthy and at worst it is creepy and dangerous.

It may well be that he is fabricating his interest in BDSM to be near you. But the question of whether or not he is a real Dom, which is where this thread started, is kind of beside the point. That may be the premise he is using to stay in your life, but if it weren't that it would be something else. By engaging in that debate you increase your own frustration for no purpose and to the extent he has any sense of your perspective he may be more motivated to prove you wrong.

Does he perceives that the marriage ended because he wasn't dominant enough? If so he may view proving his dominance as the path to reconciliation. And even by conveying the message that you think he isn't Dom, he may infer that if he can change your mind he still has a shot. Better he should understand that you don't love him anymore whether or not he is a Dom. I am not suggesting that will solve everything, but maybe give him one less thing to cling to.
 
You can't? Try this on for size:

OP - yo, if you are still around, have you been making an effort to get in touch with his dates to find out what he does in bed with them?

No? Yes?

If no, then you have ample basis to distinguish. Unless you really have no sense of proportion and you're looking to justify a guy being inappropriate and creepy any way you can.

Her solo speculations taken onto a message board anonymously are in no way equivalent to him actually doing the shit he's doing.

Questioning someone's "true dom" status is dubious, but you know what? This woman did live with the guy, have kids with him, and spend a good chunk of her life invested in him, for better or for worse. I think it's OK if she's wonders aloud for five minutes if his interest is genuine or if he's using it as a pretext to get closer to her.

You're a random pulling an internet devil's advocacy douche move to make a point with no actual basis for assessing her submissiveness.

No difference? Really?

I also don't understand how this is a problem for the current partner and no longer hers, when the current partner would not even be in dialogue with this guy at all if he were dating anyone else on earth.

I don't get the idea that OP is about to launch some kind of disinformation campaign to any and all potential GF's of this dude. I do think she's legitimately wondering whether he's coming at BDSM as a desperate rebound move to get near her, asking some neutral parties who have seen this kind of thing come and go from the outside of these situations, and if someone asks her for a reference, I don't see why she shouldn't say what she thinks. Maybe he's a great Dom to someone with less spine and pushback than she has, maybe he's just trying to get some feeling of control in his life for a while. I have no problem if it's the latter.

This "dyed in the wool, genetic Dom" thing is so freaking overrated anyway. No problem if he IS using it as an emotional counterpoint and salve - just know what you're doing, why, and have a pair of EMT shears on hand. We're not curing cancer here.


I didn't say I couldn't tell the difference with a series of additional questions. I was referring to the original posting.

As for whose problem it is. Yes of course it is hers. But she has obviously cut the ties and he keeps coming. The more she engages with him the harder it will be to get rid of him. Irritating as it may be she doesn't have the right to tell the ex who to socialize with and since they aren't in a relationship he doesn't have any "obligation" to respect her desire for him to not socialize with certain people. The current partner is in a relationship with her so she has some right to ask him to not socialize with the ex.
 
What I would do

I would try to hire a mediator, if not deal with attorneys completely. This overstepping of boundaries includes viewing you partially naked, and I would divide up the scene legally like you would assets.

I would put pressure on the custody front if you have room for it. Would you be comfortable with that?
 
I've got to go public with this one..;)

While every situation is different, in my experience, NO divorce is ever final. There's the whole alimony/spousal support thing and then since there are kids involved, there is the exchange and continual custody struggles.

***Clipped

Sig

So I wandered into this forum and found this thread... My concern is not so much about what he does, it's about the why. I have a similar train of thought as Sig.

While it is possible that the years of your coaxing and trying to kindle the "Dom" inside your ex may have found spark too late to matter, it seems far more probable that his intentions are not on the level.

I know I'm a cynical bastard, and that depresses me, but what depresses me more is that I often find I'm not cynical enough. Have you ever seen him play with someone else at an event? If not, I would hold off on public displays until you do. The reasoning for this is simple: everything you do can be used against you in court, divorce proceedings are less about the law and more about the picture you can paint. It's about leverage and pressure points, and what you are willing to possibly have on the public record.

My ex had an affair which I found out about during the divorce process. In the months prior to finding out, the terms of the divorce were greatly skewed in her favor. When I found out, and found out the way in which she had conducted the affair (fellow employee at the school she worked at, trysts during school hours, almost caught by her class, and had actually introduced her affair partner to my child...) I had leverage to get 50% parenting time and 50% legal custody. All on the basis of her not wanting to have to sit on the stand and have my attorney question her about it.

So I told you all that to make this point, be careful what he sees you doing. If his intentions are truly to explore and learn, then great. But if not, then the drama may just increase.
 
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