Getting the right fetish mix in erotic long-fiction

I'm close to embarking on a new project, a noir erotic thriller novel with strong fetish elements to it, but I feel like I'm missing something in understanding the landscape for erotic novels. So often it seems like erotic novels are somewhat less diverse than the short story landscape, are divided into two categories: standard, and BDSM (and BDSM and fetish are occasionally used synonymously). This, of course, leaves out a great deal of fetishes. There are the occasional novels dealing with specific common fetishes (like voyeurism, or incest, or cuckolding, for example), and it seems like such novels are typically targeted people of that particular fetish. So what if your story requires exploring a lot of different fetishes but doesn't really fit within BDSM territory? Should a writer worry that the audience of one fetish is going to be turned off from another fetish? Should one worry that a reader who would enjoy, say, the public exhibitionism elements might be turned off by interracial, or impregnation themes? It seems to me there are 'soft fetishes' that the average kinky reader can get behind without being put off (even when they don't share those fetishes), vs. 'hard fetishes' where you seriously start to alienate readers. Would others agree with this? How do you draw those lines? I find that as a reader, if I'm buying into a well-crafted character, I can usually see whatever they're into through their eyes. But even then, there are points where it goes too far and the character's enjoyment of something that would revulse me is enough to cause me to disconnect from them (and in extreme cases I'm never able to connect with the character the same way again). In long fiction, this makes fetishes a significant risk.

This isn't my first novel (though it is my first attempt at an erotic novel). I feel very comfortable with what I'm attempting, and I think I have the bones in place for a solid structure. I'm not including anything simply for shock value. I'm not just throwing fetishes against the wall and seeing what sticks. I have plot that's both tight and complex, and character-driven reasons for exploring the various different fetishes that my main character encounters.

The storyworld is part steampunk, part noir, with heavy detective-story elements, and it and depends on a smart, strong, although somewhat damaged female protagonist. There's a distinction between the sex that the protagonist explores and enjoys, what they fantasize about but do not experience, and what else is going on within the story world. One of the hallmarks of good noir stories is a grappling with moral right, both for yourself and others. As such, the story would have her own increasingly kinky experiences, coupled with her awareness that there is a point somewhere that she is not willing to go. And that point must exist within the story world so that the character can reject it (and in some cases, fight against it). Yet I worry that the very mention of these themes will offend some readers who will assume that they're included to titillate (which they certainly aren't).

Specifically, my main character experiences and enjoys, over the course of the novel:
voyeurism
exhibitionism
bondage
submission
lesbian
threesomes, both mmf (with minor homosexual elements) and mff
toys
strapons (receiving from another female)
interracial
moderate pain
moderate verbal degradation
foodplay

She experiences and does not enjoy:
coerced sex
anal sex
extreme pain

She enjoys either observing or fantasizing about (but does not experience):
forced sex (this is the most difficult one for her because she enjoys a fantasy that she strongly objects to on moral grounds)
impregnation
male homosexuality
prostitution
more formal BDSM culture and relationships

Other themes within the storyworld that she sees as immoral and highly objectionable are:
forced sex / rape
forced impregnation
nonconsensual sexual slavery
(As well as non-sexual dark elements including drug addiction and murder)


I'd love some input on this. Is there anything here that stands out as not working alongside the others? Anything that would seriously turn-off readers who might enjoy the rest of the book? I worry that foodplay is a little too light and fluffy alongside some of the others. Or that any mention of male homosexuality (even as a female fantasy) is going to turn off most potential male readers. Or that her complex guilt/desire feelings toward non-consensual sex will offend (even if the story ultimately deals with her righting some major wrongs in this regard).

Anything non con does not fit with the rest of the fetishes.

Although you're not exclusively delving into BDSM the three rules of that lifestyle apply across the board in the fetish worlds.

Safe Sane and consensual.

So what I see in your long list that might put people off is rape and outright sexual slavery(please tell me you know the difference between a sub and an actual slave?)

If you're using the non con as something the "bad guys" do, it may be acceptable. if you are going to have your protagonist raped along with all these other fetishes going on its going to tip the scales.

It also to me starts to cry shock value. Rough kinky sleazy underground world of sex, fine, you cross the universal line you may lose people

Sounds like you're looking to write a version of 8mm.

One question I'd like to ask is how much experience/knowledge do you have in that long list of kink? With all that in there you're targeting the fet crowd more than the 50 shades vanilla reader so you best be able to do all this accurately. The Fet crowd smells poser a mile away.

Write what you want. You invariably will find an audience if you write well. One of my best-selling e-book/paperbacks is titled Fetish Galore! and is over 260,000 words. You can imagine how wide-ranging on fetishes that one is.

Do think about marketing--but not more than you think about writing what you want to write. You may overthinking this one and need to just sit down and write and then see what the marketing issues are.

sr71plt said:

Write what you want. You invariably will find an audience if you write well. One of my best-selling e-book/paperbacks is titled Fetish Galore! and is over 260,000 words. You can imagine how wide-ranging on fetishes that one is.

Do think about marketing--but not more than you think about writing what you want to write. You may overthinking this one and need to just sit down and write and then see what the marketing issues are.

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But your fetish galore is an anthology. So people can skip a story if it hit their squick zone and move to the next.

The OP is talking about tossing all this into one novel and it is going to be hit or miss. Not to many share all of those kinks. Its going to depend on how deep he explores each one.

I don't see the problem in doing it as a novel, either. The story in the anthology with the "Fetish Galore!" title is one storyline, covering most of the fetishes.

The point is to write a novel. If there are fetishes that don't fit with the others, they won't fit in the storyline anyway. You find out if it will work by stop worrying about if it will work--and doing massive busywork planning--and just write it.

sr71plt said:

I don't see the problem in doing it as a novel, either. The story in the anthology with the "Fetish Galore!" title is one storyline, covering most of the fetishes.

The point is to write a novel. If there are fetishes that don't fit with the others, they won't fit in the storyline anyway. You find out if it will work by stop worrying about if it will work--and doing massive busywork planning--and just write it.

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Pretty much.

If I thought every little thing out I wouldn't have anything written.

My personal take is everything he has listed is an overload of "look how kinky I can be" sometimes less is more.

But that's my opinion, no one has to take it.

To me, the main thing that stands out in the novel is multiple sex themes. I'm not one to enjoy a story where there's too many themes. I've enjoyed the steampunk stories I've read, but if they had had that many themes in them, I wouldnt have read them. Steampunk on its own is sometimes hard enough to wade through. I just read one where remembering the terminology and the history of the world was hard enough, and if the author had added any more to the world she created, I would have been overwhelmed. The sex scenes, which didn't start til mid story made up for the learning curve, although I have to say some of the dialogue was ridiculous. It was based on a Victorian England after a war, but still in the Victorian era, so some of the dialogue defied reality, especially by the female protagonist. Overall, the book was a good read, though.

LadyVer said:

To me, the main thing that stands out in the novel is multiple sex themes. I'm not one to enjoy a story where there's too many themes. I've enjoyed the steampunk stories I've read, but if they had had that many themes in them, I wouldnt have read them. Steampunk on its own is sometimes hard enough to wade through. I just read one where remembering the terminology and the history of the world was hard enough, and if the author had added any more to the world she created, I would have been overwhelmed. The sex scenes, which didn't start til mid story made up for the learning curve, although I have to say some of the dialogue was ridiculous. It was based on a Victorian England after a war, but still in the Victorian era, so some of the dialogue defied reality, especially by the female protagonist. Overall, the book was a good read, though.

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Are you saying the dialogue was ridiculous because it was anachronistic and didn't fit for the era, or because dialogue of that era sounds ridiculous to us today (particularly when trying to be sexy)? Dialogue will certainly be one of the toughest things to nail for it, and I'm trying to brush up on my Vic Lit to get it down. Sexuality was discussed more through euphemism and suggestion then. And to us today, too much euphemism sounds silly. I think there's a balance somewhere between suggestion/euphemism and direct discussion (with era-appropriate terminology), where it's both historically plausible and sexy.

I think you might be right that it's a mistake to combine this many themes with steampunk. My character's primary fetish at the beginning of the story is voyeurism, and I could scale her actual experiences back somewhat and instead have those things explored through the context of her being a voyeur to them. I think I could tighten it down to voyeurism, bondage, toys, and consent/non-consent being the primary themes for her own sexuality.

lovecraft68 said:

Anything non con does not fit with the rest of the fetishes.

Although you're not exclusively delving into BDSM the three rules of that lifestyle apply across the board in the fetish worlds.

Safe Sane and consensual.

So what I see in your long list that might put people off is rape and outright sexual slavery(please tell me you know the difference between a sub and an actual slave?)

If you're using the non con as something the "bad guys" do, it may be acceptable. if you are going to have your protagonist raped along with all these other fetishes going on its going to tip the scales.

It also to me starts to cry shock value. Rough kinky sleazy underground world of sex, fine, you cross the universal line you may lose people

Sounds like you're looking to write a version of 8mm.

One question I'd like to ask is how much experience/knowledge do you have in that long list of kink? With all that in there you're targeting the fet crowd more than the 50 shades vanilla reader so you best be able to do all this accurately. The Fet crowd smells poser a mile away.

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One challenge of this (again going with anachronisms) is that the story takes place in an era before the contemporary BDSM community, where there was less self-policing of good practices, less understanding (or caring) of modern medicine, and when it was easier for someone to turn financial/social power into unchecked sexual power. Everything about the sexuality in this story needs to plausibly come from either Victorian and Japanese Imperial culture, and where it differs, that explanation for the difference needs to come from the story world. I've been trying to research what the fetish community was during that era. There was a strong connection between such kinks and brothels during that era, which gives rise to the fact that not everyone involved in it was necessarily there of their own choice. I think one could say that while 'safe, sane and consentual' wasn't a universal concept at that point, there were similar consequences for people who operate outside that: the potential for harm both emotionally and physically.

Slavery, in the context that I'm using it in the book, refers to people who have been taken against their will into a certain life (although where the imprisonment occurs on a psychological level more than physical). While submission as I'm using it is about someone making the choice to enter into a submissive role, either for an encounter or for a longer relationship.

It's been a while since I've seen 8mm, and while my story does have some similar detective elements, I remember it as being a film that tended to be condemning of kink (and sex in general); I prefer stories in which both the positive and negatives are explored; that kink can ultimately be a positive place until it crosses certain moral lines, though it's not always easy to see exactly what the moral lines are when immersed in it.

callmeismael said:

Are you saying the dialogue was ridiculous because it was anachronistic and didn't fit for the era, or because dialogue of that era sounds ridiculous to us today (particularly when trying to be sexy)? Dialogue will certainly be one of the toughest things to nail for it, and I'm trying to brush up on my Vic Lit to get it down. Sexuality was discussed more through euphemism and suggestion then. And to us today, too much euphemism sounds silly. I think there's a balance somewhere between suggestion/euphemism and direct discussion (with era-appropriate terminology), where it's both historically plausible and sexy.

I think you might be right that it's a mistake to combine this many themes with steampunk. My character's primary fetish at the beginning of the story is voyeurism, and I could scale her actual experiences back somewhat and instead have those things explored through the context of her being a voyeur to them. I think I could tighten it down to voyeurism, bondage, toys, and consent/non-consent being the primary themes for her own sexuality.

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Yes, some of the sexual dialogue was anachronistic. It just wasn't plausible. And the female protagonist was a 30-year-old virgin who supposedly didn't know much about sex, or the language of it. Then when she does have sex, she speaks and acts like an erotica character in 2014.

And the book is classified as steampunk romance, not erotica. In a way, I felt the author had lied about the category. If she had classified the book as erotica, the dialogue would have worked because I would have expected it. Which tends to make me think that the author either doesn't know what erotica is, she thinks it's OK to advertise a book as something it's not to appeal to more readers (which annoys the hell out of me because it's artistic switch and bait), or she doesn't care that some of her readers don't read erotica and were simply looking for a Victorian steampunk story that was advertised as such. I was actually looking for a Victorian steampunk story with believable dialogue.

callmeismael said:

One challenge of this (again going with anachronisms) is that the story takes place in an era before the contemporary BDSM community, where there was less self-policing of good practices, less understanding (or caring) of modern medicine, and when it was easier for someone to turn financial/social power into unchecked sexual power. Everything about the sexuality in this story needs to plausibly come from either Victorian and Japanese Imperial culture, and where it differs, that explanation for the difference needs to come from the story world. I've been trying to research what the fetish community was during that era. There was a strong connection between such kinks and brothels during that era, which gives rise to the fact that not everyone involved in it was necessarily there of their own choice. I think one could say that while 'safe, sane and consentual' wasn't a universal concept at that point, there were similar consequences for people who operate outside that: the potential for harm both emotionally and physically.

Slavery, in the context that I'm using it in the book, refers to people who have been taken against their will into a certain life (although where the imprisonment occurs on a psychological level more than physical). While submission as I'm using it is about someone making the choice to enter into a submissive role, either for an encounter or for a longer relationship.

It's been a while since I've seen 8mm, and while my story does have some similar detective elements, I remember it as being a film that tended to be condemning of kink (and sex in general); I prefer stories in which both the positive and negatives are explored; that kink can ultimately be a positive place until it crosses certain moral lines, though it's not always easy to see exactly what the moral lines are when immersed in it.

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Before the days of modern BDSM?

A woman being led into all these kinks, some willingly some against her will?

Got it.

It's already been written its called The Hundred and Twenty Days of Sodom.

Is your character named Justine by any chance?

That's pretty much what it sounds like your going for.

But regardless of it being a time before any "rules" we live in a day of them and my opinion(and that is all it is is mine) is that you will still lose some target audience.

People who are into the lifestyle tend to get offended when people take it to be something its not. You're also going far to deep for the mainstream crowd.

Write whatever and however you want. I am sure you will find the audience(or it will find you) but the more you throw in the smaller that audience may be.

Nothing like anything by Sade, who's writing I personally detest (won't get into all the reasons here). I'm first and foremost about telling a thrilling, complex, plot-driven detective story, in which the sexuality of the characters and their society form the driving elements. I won't claim that I'm doing anything totally original, but neo-noir detective stories with a heavy (sometimes positive, sometimes negative) sexual element (Larsson, Vachss, for instance) are probably the best comparison.

I do appreciate your feedback though. I feel like writing for a BDSM audience is going to be too constraining for me.

Which might mean I need to tone the kink level down a couple notches and focus in on the few fetishes that are most central to my character and still reasonably mainstream.

My 2 cents from a fairly vanilla POV

I somehow came across, coming from an entirely vanilla world, the Club Shadowlands series of novels by Cherise Sinclair and absolutely loved them. I had already heard about the 50 Shades but the rumors of the writing quality of those completely turned me off, so I have never read them. Sinclair covers pretty much all the themes you mention, though not in a single novel, and she does a great job of raising the stakes with each new novel - she does a great job, IMO, of pulling the reader in. In that series, she has one that deals specifically with the sleaziest and most dangerous side of sex slavery and I found it a great if quease-inducing read.

I agree with Pilot that you should write it, then edit it mercilessly. The hard part is getting it down in the first place - if you are, or have access to, a great editor, you'll be able to pull it into shape.

I also agree with LC that you seem to have everything and the kitchen sink planned for one book. As you write it, it may turn into more than one, or see my previous comment regarding Pilot's advice.

I also agree that steampunk is hard to pull off - I haven't read all that's written in that style, but none of what I've read has been truly jaw-dropingly good (any pointers here would be appreciated). To me, that means there's an opportunity for more to be written - so good luck!!