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article: The Female Price of Male Pleasure

weftandwarp said:
Thank you, it was fun to read.

Prostate cancer is bigger than breast and cervical combined. I have been going to doctors every year for 15 years, for a prostate check. I have only had it done this year. Every other year they refused to do it. I don't think I'm unusual in this. So, it isn't only men who need to be informed, it is doctors too. So much for fliers-they are only an embarrassment, more than the procedure its self.
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If they have 'refused' to do it, then I would suspect it is because there are no clinical indications for the test to be done, and performing it would result in no Medicare benefit and as such you would be wholly out of pocket. Doctors don't refuse to perform tests and risk medical malpractice because of feminism and a desire to kill men off. That's not how it works. Going forward, if you are concerned about an issue and your GP is reluctant, I would suggest switching GP's or asking why they are refusing and the possibility about paying (in full) for the test to be done.

I suspect you are failing to separate 'women want rights' from a mistaken belief that 'women want to run the world at the expense of men'. It should be quite reasonable to discuss women's issues without having to sidetrack into men's issues. I have never, for example, felt the need to knock on the door of a Men's Shed and talk about domestic violence and how it affects women, yet one bloody post on Literotica - which most comments, myself included, are critical of - has provoked a anti-feminist rant and a 'what about the menz?' Mate, men run the fucking world. If you are being let down by our leaders, it is not women doing you wrong, but other men.
 
8letters said:
Things porn stories frequently get wrong about sex:
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Funny thing you should bring this up. Athalia, who started this thread, started a thread many years ago:

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=720599

about what men get wrong when writing about what a woman experiences during sex. I remember that she got some flak about it, mostly from people who were telling her that porn wasn't supposed to be realistic. (It was one of her first experiences with Lit, which I introduced her to, and she told me, "Jehoram, what the hell did you get me into?") You might find the thread interesting, since it addressed the sort of thing you were talking about.

But I have been thinking some more about the article. I think it's fair to say that most women aren't traumatized by sexual pain, any more than most of my Black friends have the expectation that they won't be stopped and shot by cops when driving to the grocery store. Where we get into trouble is mistaking that normality as a Universal Truth, to the point where we have trouble believing those instances where deviations from that norm really did happen. What we've been learning over the past few years is that these instances, while still rare, happen more than we thought they did, and what's more, nobody was talking about them until now. I think that's what the article is bringing up.
 
jehoram said:
Funny thing you should bring this up. Athalia, who started this thread, started a thread many years ago:

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=720599

about what men get wrong when writing about what a woman experiences during sex
Click to expand...

I read the first couple pages of that. Of course, only the first few responses were on-topic, but it was interesting to see responses from people who aren't active now, people who are still active (get a life?), and people who are still here, but with different lives.

So getting back to the idea of the "hot splash," I think that's bunk. It's a man's literary idealism that it should be hot, or maybe 'hot.' It's not. From what I've read in non-erotic blogs, women really don't feel it going in. They are more likely to feel it oozing out. Probably the only reason she knows he's done is that he stopped.

Actually, I think a woman posted that here not too long ago.

It might be a bigger misconception that women are going to get off from being humped. Maybe some will, but the best generalization I've ever read about sex is 'The person on top gets to come.'

jehoram said:
But I have been thinking some more about the article.
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I can imagine that you would think more about that article because of your friendship with Athalia. I thought the author used pain during sex as a very flimsy soap box to stand on while she delivered a little, poorly-supported rant on gender politics.

I've read 'The Week' before and generally like it. They publish a range of political views. Probably most of their articles are better than this one.

I've been curious about the response on this thread. Athalia, did you get what you expected?
 
NotWise said:
I can imagine that you would think more about that article because of your friendship with Athalia. I thought the author used pain during sex as a very flimsy soap box to stand on while she delivered a little, poorly-supported rant on gender politics.
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(Explanatory note here: Athalia and I have known each other for ... thirty years now? ... and edit each other's stories.) It's true that collaborating with her has "raised my consciousness" at least to the point of my no longer being as confident in my perceptions of women as I once was. But for me the article wasn't so much about the pain-during-sex thing as the fact that people don't talk about it, and don't study it as much as they should. The author saw a parallel between that and the recent revelations about harassment of women in the workplace and in Hollywood. I'm not sure that this identifies the article as a rant on gender politics, any more than the Black Lives Matter people are ranting over racial politics.

I've been curious about the response on this thread. Athalia, did you get what you expected?
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I'm curious about that, too. Also input from other women on this forum.
 
Erotica authors need to take note of this because there are so many sex scenes that are laughably written because of a lack of ability to identify with the female character. I am thinking of scenes where the woman would be in obvious pain but she miraculously cums over and over in spite of it. Our mindset is skewed. We expect women to accept and even prefer pain during sex. It’s a lady boner killer to read it in erotica.
 
I thought the author used pain during sex as a very flimsy soap box to stand on while she delivered a little, poorly-supported rant on gender politics.


That is what I thought. I'm tired of it. I think gender politics is closely associated with control. It isn't about exchanging cliches. It should be more than that if it is to be fair. Both genders are too often poorly represented in stories. Portrayals of sensitive men don't do well here but I look for them constantly. I'm much more interested in men and women who lack confidence, who haven't had blue whale transplants, who are real and honestly portrayed. I've noticed the longer a story is the less whole the charactors in it seem to be, like a Disneyfication. Charactors don't seem to have many neural synapses at their disposal and the few neural pathways established are so used they should be fried with overuse. The pain of rejection for example is often inadequately dealt with. Physical pain is also a male thing, not just a female thing, yet it is so rarely represented except in an aggressive context. Emotion is usually inadequately developed. That's what I try to explore, not always with success. I find it beautiful, though I delete a lot of it for here because it is so poorly tolerated. I enter competitions with small, truncated explorations to see what happens. There isn't much point to winning, the prizes aren't for us, so it's an opportunity to explore, try things that are different, that I find interesting and aren't cliches.
 
jehoram said:
But for me the article wasn't so much about the pain-during-sex thing as the fact that people don't talk about it, and don't study it as much as they should.
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Pain during sex is well-known. The medical diagnosis is dyspareunia. You can Google "vaginal pain during intercourse" and learn all you want about it. It isn't unknown. It probably doesn't need a big new study effort. WebMD and other sites list many possible causes for the discomfort, which are likely to vary from case to case.

How common is it? One of the top selections on the Google list gave this:

Pain during intercourse is very common—nearly 3 out of 4 women have pain during intercourse at some time during their lives. For some women, the pain is only a temporary problem; for others, it is a long-term problem
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That means that 25% of women have never had pain during sex. I don't believe it.

Another one came up with:

Recent studies suggest that more than many women report current or previous episodes of pain during sexual relations.

Fewer than half of these women discussed this pain with their doctors.
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What the hell is "more than many?"

I don't dispute the article's evidence of pain during sex at all, but that discussion probably was about 20% (tops) of the content of the article. The rest was largely off the topic of pain during sex, which was actually barely explored. It wandered into (among other things) questionable reinterpretations of history (done without reference), and seemed to represent a view that women don't enjoy heterosexual sex--there is pain, bu no upside.

So how about a nice erotic story where the woman is experiencing dyspareunia? It could be very short. "Honey, that hurts! Again? The End."
 
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RubenR said:
Are we talking 'Erotic' or, 'Porn'? Erotic is so much more than just a dick in a cunt. Actually, I think it has all the drama for Romance
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I think it has the makings of a Romance. She calls him 'Honey,' after all. His response indicates that this is a burden they've struggled with before. I guess the 'The End' was premature. Wait for part two to find out how it all works out.

Any takers? I'm willing to lend the 'Honey, it hurts' universe to willing writers.
 
NotWise said:
So how about a nice erotic story where the woman is experiencing dyspareunia? It could be very short. "Honey, that hurts! Again? The End."
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I've heard that a time or two.
It can make one feel less of a man.
 
8letters said:
Things porn stories frequently get wrong about sex:
* The hymen is not located a distance down the vagina. Your penis can't run into her maidenhead after it's inside the vagina
* A woman (18+) who's been using Kotexes since her periods have started is unlikely to have a hymen left. If she does, it's barely there
* The vast majority of women do not orgasm from fucking. If she's going to cum, the man should make her cum before they have intercourse
* She'll be much more lubricated and will enjoy intercourse more if she cums before intercourse
* In situations typically described in porn stories (a young, inexperienced male who is very sexually stimulated and it's his first time with this partner), the guy is not going to last very long (< 1 min)
* Given the above two, her cumming two or more times from his fucking her is cranking implausibility up to 11
* If the sex consists of the male character whipping it out and pounding her, it's unlikely to be an enjoyable experience for her
* If she is someone who does orgasm from intercourse, the chance of her cumming at almost the same time that he does is very small
* I've never had someone put their finger up my asshole during sex, but given how much I enjoy prostate exams, I don't think I'd enjoy it during sex
* I've never done anal. My impression is that it's nothing she's going to find enjoyable without a lot of lube and a lot of time getting her sphincter to slowly relax. I don't see spitting on her asshole and then fucking her ass like it's her vagina turning out well
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Would this be a good place to link to Emily Nagoski's Come As You Are? http://www.wbur.org/radioboston/2015/03/12/emily-nagoski
 
NotWise said:
Pain during sex is well-known.
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The more interesting point is that pain during sex for women is well accepted and even celebrated. We read it in erotica all the time. Gargantuan cocks stretching tiny pussies, gripping and yanking hair, painfully twisting nipples - and all outside of stories tagged as bdsm. Societally a woman on the receiving end of sexual pain is sexy. And women believe it too so this isn’t a male vs female thing. But there is a sickness in that and it should be questioned. If we reversed the roles and had the finger nails sinking into his scrotum or her grip snapping shut on his cock right before the cum could squirt, we’d call it a festish scene rather than sex as usual.


NotWise said:
how about a nice erotic story where the woman is experiencing dyspareunia? It could be very short. "Honey, that hurts! Again? The End."
Click to expand...

Oh we can write this better. Let’s try!


Ramon backed up and redoubled on his efforts. His hard cock twanged stubbornly at the small entrance of Elena’s rose-colored entrance. She bucked back against him and lip-chewed through the resulting sting of road rash that his unsympathetic thrusts were causing on her most sensitive regions. She considered her options: Request lube and some sexual finesse - of which she knew he had neither, grin and bear it because ‘meh, female pain produces male pleasure’, or get up and leave.

“‘-Scue...excuse me, Ramon?” she tentatively interjected before his next fouled blow could be delivered.

“Uh - huh, yeah?” he responded with surprise.

“I..I’m sorry” she said clearing her throat to speak more clearly. “Ramon, this isn’t working for me. I’ll be shredded in no time at this rate. I really...I’m sorry. I gotta go.”

“Oh. Ah. Shit. I had no idea. Can I walk you out?”

The zip of her jeans and flash of her cardigan being hastily slipped on were almost as quick as her reply.

“No, thank you. I have a friend down the dorm hall that I can visit. I’ll walk myself out.”

Elena gave Ramon a weak smile that spread to a full grin as she turned around and rehearsed in her mind the turns to Josh’s door. His hands and next tongue would work slowly down her body allowing her body the pleasure of responding with feminine juices, tangy and slick. The only thing getting mercilessly banged now would be Josh’s university-issued metal bed frame.
 
Handley_Page said:
I've heard that a time or two.
It can make one feel less of a man.
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RubenR said:
I think that goes both ways.
Click to expand...

Ok, at the risk of destroying my carefully cultivated Puckish persona...

A long, long time ago in a galaxy- *cough* Okay, so not really all that far from where I'm sitting by galactic standards...

Any road, for a wide variety of reasons, I had some fears that bordered on phobic about sex. Fears that my first time actually having it only enhanced. Namely, that I wasn't going to be good enough at the whole sex thing to keep a girlfriend/fiancee/lover/wife. So, I did a lot of studying. Nope. More than that. Seriously.

Now, at the risk of sounding like I'm toodling my own horn, I never had any complaints and quite a few later laments when that particular relationship played out but we got back in touch later. Most of that was, honestly, I just flat paid more attention and was willing to do whatever it took to make sure she got hers (and more than once) before I found mine.

The thing is when I took up with the woman who would become my wife, while she appreciated all the tricks I'd come up with over the years, she really preferred a not so gentle... well, "pounding" is really the only word to describe it. Often gouging her nails in my ass like spurs since once that vein in her forehead started to bulge even just "harder" and "faster" was beyond her conversational abilities.

But, wait.

About a decade and a half or so after we were married, she had to have a hysterectomy. And if you guys haven't had a chance to visit a gynecologist with your gal and it comes up, don't.

Although, in fairness, it might not have been so bad if she hadn't been a tall, rather attractive, woman with a thick accent reminiscent of Dr. Ruth and an appearance that was a tad on the prim side.

Well, "the procedure" went well and we went back for the follow-up. And we were informed there was massive uterine bruising. While she was peering over her glasses at me! :eek:

In my defense, and I tried to defend myself to her at the time, I tried to be slow and gentle! It was my delicate flower who was prodding me with her five-inch Freddy Kruger claws in my ass cheeks that cause me to lunge like a horse in traces!

And, of course, my shy and retiring, demure wife found it all abso-fucking-lutely hysterical!

But, hold up. I'm still not done.

Because you see, we were one of the fortunate few that a hysterectomy didn't diminish her sex drive or her ability to be wet. And after she healed up, it was back to rodeo sex with her spurring me on (although it lasted a whole hell of a lot longer than 8 seconds :devil:).

But, time wore on as it had a tendency to do and some problems unrelated to the hysterectomy started to interfere. We weren't completely sure if it was the spinal injury, the "mass" in her brain, or something else that started to cause a problem with numbness. And eventually pain. It was longer between times that she could manage. And when she could, I had to be much gentler with her than she preferred.

The last time we tried was about a month and a half before she passed away, and she flat could not do it at all. I held her and stroked her hair for over an hour as she cried into my chest and tried to help her to understand that I still loved her and she was still a woman in my eyes.

But, yeah. My long-winded point there is that it's not only a mistake to think all women (or men) like the same things, but that the same woman would like the same thing in all circumstances. And that, yes, it can hit her harder than it will us when she can't perform.

*****

As far as the original opinion piece by Ms. Loofbourow...

Well, I'll just mention that my wife got her minor in "Femi-nazi" (my term for Women's Studies when I wanted to wind her up) for her Bachelor's. And I'm fairly certain she'd be frothing at the mouth if she'd read it.

For my part, I was already inclined to not take it too seriously since it was clearly labelled "opinion" in the header and that was just reinforced when I tracked her link to "Pain experienced during vaginal and anal intercourse with other-sex partners: findings from a nationally representative probability study in the United States" to find that she had only bothered with the abstract. And having read enough abstracts in my checkered past (and written a fair few), I know just how much "baffle 'em with bullshit" is lurking therein.

I was too lazy for more than a cursory try to access the full date to check the efficacy of the quoted study when my first few attempts didn't pan out. But, I've seen enough to question the methodology in several particulars.

But, the piece is an opinion piece and as such is not subject to even the modern lax standards of journalistic integrity. So, I shrugged it off and read through to the end.

I can't say I'm sorry I read it. But, I also take it with a leavening of salt as I sensed a fair amount of front end loading on Ms. Loofbourow's part which she then wandered too far afield and failed to adequately support any of her arguments beyond the bare minimum of a blogger "it's important because I say it is."

Then again, that's really all I'm doing here too. So, I'll take my machismo and move on, I suppose.
 
Agree with Puckit on the article, 100%. Plus or minus.

Charmolypi said:
Oh we can write this better. Let’s try!
Click to expand...

Oh, okay. I'll take my shot at part 2.

Honey, I saw my gynecologist today. Cool! Did he fix everything? Well yeah, sorta. He said that it hurts because your dick is too big. But I'm just average sized! Here's the prescription. I have to be on top from now on so you don't bounce on my cervix. Don't worry, I'll let you cum on Saturday nights -- if I haven't been drinking too much. Uh... He really said my dick was too big?

See! They worked it out, so it's a romance. Okay, at least it looks like they worked it out (cliffhanger).
 
PuckIt said:
Ok, at the risk of destroying my carefully cultivated Puckish persona...

A long, long time ago in a galaxy- *cough* Okay, so not really all that far from where I'm sitting by galactic standards...

Any road, for a wide variety of reasons, I had some fears that bordered on phobic about sex. Fears that my first time actually having it only enhanced. Namely, that I wasn't going to be good enough at the whole sex thing to keep a girlfriend/fiancee/lover/wife. So, I did a lot of studying. Nope. More than that. Seriously.

Now, at the risk of sounding like I'm toodling my own horn, I never had any complaints and quite a few later laments when that particular relationship played out but we got back in touch later. Most of that was, honestly, I just flat paid more attention and was willing to do whatever it took to make sure she got hers (and more than once) before I found mine.

The thing is when I took up with the woman who would become my wife, while she appreciated all the tricks I'd come up with over the years, she really preferred a not so gentle... well, "pounding" is really the only word to describe it. Often gouging her nails in my ass like spurs since once that vein in her forehead started to bulge even just "harder" and "faster" was beyond her conversational abilities.

But, wait.

About a decade and a half or so after we were married, she had to have a hysterectomy. And if you guys haven't had a chance to visit a gynecologist with your gal and it comes up, don't.

Although, in fairness, it might not have been so bad if she hadn't been a tall, rather attractive, woman with a thick accent reminiscent of Dr. Ruth and an appearance that was a tad on the prim side.

Well, "the procedure" went well and we went back for the follow-up. And we were informed there was massive uterine bruising. While she was peering over her glasses at me! :eek:

In my defense, and I tried to defend myself to her at the time, I tried to be slow and gentle! It was my delicate flower who was prodding me with her five-inch Freddy Kruger claws in my ass cheeks that cause me to lunge like a horse in traces!

And, of course, my shy and retiring, demure wife found it all abso-fucking-lutely hysterical!

But, hold up. I'm still not done.

Because you see, we were one of the fortunate few that a hysterectomy didn't diminish her sex drive or her ability to be wet. And after she healed up, it was back to rodeo sex with her spurring me on (although it lasted a whole hell of a lot longer than 8 seconds :devil:).

But, time wore on as it had a tendency to do and some problems unrelated to the hysterectomy started to interfere. We weren't completely sure if it was the spinal injury, the "mass" in her brain, or something else that started to cause a problem with numbness. And eventually pain. It was longer between times that she could manage. And when she could, I had to be much gentler with her than she preferred.

The last time we tried was about a month and a half before she passed away, and she flat could not do it at all. I held her and stroked her hair for over an hour as she cried into my chest and tried to help her to understand that I still loved her and she was still a woman in my eyes.

But, yeah. My long-winded point there is that it's not only a mistake to think all women (or men) like the same things, but that the same woman would like the same thing in all circumstances. And that, yes, it can hit her harder than it will us when she can't perform.

*****

As far as the original opinion piece by Ms. Loofbourow...

Well, I'll just mention that my wife got her minor in "Femi-nazi" (my term for Women's Studies when I wanted to wind her up) for her Bachelor's. And I'm fairly certain she'd be frothing at the mouth if she'd read it.

For my part, I was already inclined to not take it too seriously since it was clearly labelled "opinion" in the header and that was just reinforced when I tracked her link to "Pain experienced during vaginal and anal intercourse with other-sex partners: findings from a nationally representative probability study in the United States" to find that she had only bothered with the abstract. And having read enough abstracts in my checkered past (and written a fair few), I know just how much "baffle 'em with bullshit" is lurking therein.

I was too lazy for more than a cursory try to access the full date to check the efficacy of the quoted study when my first few attempts didn't pan out. But, I've seen enough to question the methodology in several particulars.

But, the piece is an opinion piece and as such is not subject to even the modern lax standards of journalistic integrity. So, I shrugged it off and read through to the end.

I can't say I'm sorry I read it. But, I also take it with a leavening of salt as I sensed a fair amount of front end loading on Ms. Loofbourow's part which she then wandered too far afield and failed to adequately support any of her arguments beyond the bare minimum of a blogger "it's important because I say it is."

Then again, that's really all I'm doing here too. So, I'll take my machismo and move on, I suppose.
Click to expand...

Brave
Persona enhanced.
 
*shakes head at some of the responses AND the article*

Sad, just sad.

There are many women who ENJOY! sex without any pain or discomfort. (Unless that is how they want their sex.) From personal observation and experience, there seem to be more who do than those who don't. For some reason we rarely hear from the ones who LIKE sex and who LIKE their male partners. Especially in this day and age of rampant male bashing in the news and on the web.

Sex isn't about feminism, or political correctness or servitude or societal inculcation either. It's not even about prostate exam flyers posted in bathrooms. The idea that sex can be reduced to any of these things is ridiculous because ALL of these things fail to encompass the entirety of the physical relationship between adults.

Sex is not piecemeal. It's not a listing of things "to do and not do." It's as much mental as it is physical and good erotica (or even porn) encompasses both of those things and leaves out the rest of the garbage mentioned here. Most of the posts in this thread AND the article miss that point completely.

That's my take, but what do I know; I'm constantly being told my stories suck and aren't worth reading by anyone. Maybe I should write a story about a raging feminist who storms off to work everyday to stomp on and bash every male she sees, including complete strangers, while hubs stays home and is "the perfect man" in her life because he's handsome; strong; successful in business and financially even though he kept passing over that promotion and huge pay raise so some "more deserving" woman could have it; is assertive and always stands up for himself; and does a good job licking her boots when she comes home after her long day of menial labor slaving away at work for half the pay of her male underlings. Oh yeah, and sex doesn't hurt because there isn't any. Unless she wants it. Which she never does because; ewww! he has a penis.

Hmmm, whadya think? Good?
 
NotWise said:
I've been curious about the response on this thread. Athalia, did you get what you expected?
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I'm not really sure what I expected, although I sort of hoped that more women would chime in with both their take on the article and and with their own experiences. Maybe I should have gone first on the latter issue, in which case I should add that I have, on rare occasion, experienced pain in sex for various reasons including size mismatch, sore tissues, or strained muscles. None of these has been incapacitating. I have talked to women who had worse experiences that I've had, and this makes the article's allegations more persuasive to me.

The Judeo-Christian culture has long had a rather cavalier attitude regarding female pain .. consider Genesis 3:16 "“Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children" which has been used to justify withholding anesthesia from women giving birth. We've thus been told that female pain is just one of those things that you shouldn't make an issue of. Thankfully, the trend has been away from that in the last century, but I think there are still vestiges of it in western culture.

I appreciated Jehoram comparing the #MeToo movement to Black Lives Matter, because I find that analogy apt. In both cases, the silence, until recently, has been deafening. Now we have video, we have women coming forth to tell their stories. It's apparent now that these issues are Real Things, not feminist/racist paranoia. Maybe this discussion about our reluctance to accurately discuss the female sexual experience stems from the same source ... a desire to illuminate that which has previously been in shadow.

I appreciate everybody's takes on this, for or against the article. Everybody is expressing what they see as the truth from their point of view. And it's important that we understand each other's points of view, because otherwise, how could we have a discussion at all?
 
Athalia said:
The Judeo-Christian culture has long had a rather cavalier attitude regarding female pain .. consider Genesis 3:16 "“Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children" which has been used to justify withholding anesthesia from women giving birth.
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Which brings up something that I should have thought of before. Men's sexual equipment is pretty straightforward. We use our penises to pee and fuck, and that's about it. Except for prostrate trouble and VD, there's nothing to complicate the issue. Women, on the other hand, have periods, occasional infections, and this thing where they have to push a fifteen-pound person down the chute. Talk about your apples and oranges...

Of course, we men understand all this on some level, at least if we've had pregnant spouses or friends. But I don't think we can really appreciate it. I know I didn't, especially when I was younger.

I appreciated Jehoram comparing the #MeToo movement to Black Lives Matter, because I find that analogy apt.
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Well, you know me. I make this sort of connection all the time. I just don't bring it up much here, because I'd hate to have this thread moved to the "General Board" or "Politics Board." (Every time I visit those boards, I feel like I have to take a shower afterwards.)

I appreciate everybody's takes on this, for or against the article. Everybody is expressing what they see as the truth from their point of view. And it's important that we understand each other's points of view, because otherwise, how could we have a discussion at all?
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This.
 
Kindofhere, that’s a good point about male pain in non-sexual contexts. Societally we do expect men to take pain and not complain. It is a demented social expectation. That should change.

Getting back to sexual contexts though, can you recall having sex and feeling like you needed to endure pain to the point that it forfeit your orgasm for that session of sex? That is a sexual experience that I can say confidently the majority of women have and some lesser, though still significant portion, experiences regularly. It comes down to expectations during sex. Women’s pleasure isn’t prioritized the way a man’s is. He must cum; She can cum. It produces disappointing sex. Women are discouraged from pursuing pleasure. Men aren’t as informed as they could be about how to aid instead of hinder their partner’s pleasure. Everyone is complicit and everyone is losing out on having better sex. Let’s just all have better sex, right?:D
 
Athalia said:
The Judeo-Christian culture has long had a rather cavalier attitude regarding female pain .. consider Genesis 3:16 "“Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children" which has been used to justify withholding anesthesia from women giving birth.
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I don't get it. "in sorrow thou shalt bring forth . . ."
Note that, given possible problems of translation, it does not say:
"in pain thou shalt bring forth. . . "
Surely we owe our womenfolk a duty of care as much as possible ?

Or have I missed something ?
 
Charmolypi said:
Kindofhere, that’s a good point about male pain in non-sexual contexts. Societally we do expect men to take pain and not complain. It is a demented social expectation. That should change.
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This isn't limited to men. My mother-in-law was raised to never complain about pain, and she raised her children that way. That attitude probably caused my sister-in-law's death and it shortened my mother-in-law's life by a few years. I think my wife knows better.

Charmolypi said:
It comes down to expectations during sex. Women’s pleasure isn’t prioritized the way a man’s is. He must cum; She can cum. It produces disappointing sex. Women are discouraged from pursuing pleasure. Men aren’t as informed as they could be about how to aid instead of hinder their partner’s pleasure. Everyone is complicit and everyone is losing out on having better sex. Let’s just all have better sex, right?:D
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I often look for primitive, even biological, reasons for some of our odd cultural features. The difference between men's pleasure in sex and women's pleasure in sex could come down to a simple reproductive fact. The guy usually has to come or there are no babies. The woman? Not so much. Maybe pleasurable sex makes it less likely she'll fight about it.

The idea that women should enjoy sex has probably existed within some couples since at least the beginning of the romantic era. I've read excerpts from women's diaries going back to the early 1800's where they described exploring their own sexual fantasies with their husbands. Society as a whole has been slow to catch up.

I disagree with your last sentence. We don't usually interfere in other people's sex lives, so of course we are complicit when it comes to "everyone's" experience, and we aren't all losing out on having better sex.

Nor do I really think that there is one route toward better sex. The sad truth is that there are plenty of misogynists in the world. The sadder truth is that they don't have trouble finding women to love them. Their solutions are likely to be different from yours, and there are a lot of other deviations from the norm you generalize. Really, there are masochists and there are sadists to please them.

To put things into the erotic lit context, vaginal pain during sex isn't especially erotic. I'd expect most people to write around it, or to spin it.

In five of my last six stories the female protagonists experience pain during sex. In the first four of those, she's a cougar who gets an emotional charge from her young lover's clumsy over-excitement, and for that she puts up with uncomfortable penetrations and other bad behavior that her lovers frankly can't avoid because they don't know better. Realistic? I don't know. I do know that some women like to be "pounded."

In the last (just submitted), the female protagonist invites painful sex with the antagonist so she can use his post-coital relaxation to pump him for information. She gets the information she needs, then tells another character ('Doctor') "Maybe I should be ashamed of the way that pain turned to pleasure, Doctor. Maybe I should be ashamed of the way he pulled my trigger, but I’m not."

In the one story in between, the female protagonist admits to participating in bondage games with her abusive ex-husband. Pain during sex isn't described, but it's easy enough to imagine it was there.
 
jehoram said:
Which brings up something that I should have thought of before. Men's sexual equipment is pretty straightforward. We use our penises to pee and fuck, and that's about it. Except for prostrate trouble and VD, there's nothing to complicate the issue. Women, on the other hand, have periods, occasional infections, and this thing where they have to push a fifteen-pound person down the chute. Talk about your apples and oranges...

Of course, we men understand all this on some level, at least if we've had pregnant spouses or friends. But I don't think we can really appreciate it. I know I didn't, especially when I was younger.

Well, you know me. I make this sort of connection all the time. I just don't bring it up much here, because I'd hate to have this thread moved to the "General Board" or "Politics Board." (Every time I visit those boards, I feel like I have to take a shower afterwards.)



Men have more problems than that. Cysts are common and inflict pain, particularly testicular cysts. There are a lot of conditions that cause men pain. I found that the worst thing was the ledger that my wife kept. If she didn't get some enormous gift she wasn't interested. I figured I wasn't interested either when i realised. She enjoyed inflicting pain. I wanted children. She killed them. The doctor told me after she died. I know it isn't only women who can be hurt. Men can be too. One thing I have discovered is that many women who have had an hysterectomy have extremely short vaginas that cause problems. I think it should be of interest to women before having it done so they can register their desire to have a vagina sufficiently long that they can enjoy sex.

Another thing not discussed is circumcision, especially the botched ones..testicular cancer, penile cancer hasn't been discussed. Peyrones disease hasn't been discussed. Varices in the scrotum, there really are a lot of conditions that cause pain in men. Socially it is easier to talk about feminine conditions, there are gynaecology wards in hospitals but no andrology wards for men. They are normally included in general surgical wards or paediatric wards which demonstrates that a man having problems isn't as socially acceptable, I think
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