Categorization

Three straight guys are telling me, a gay woman (although in reality gay doesn't begin to cover it), that the smaller venue I have been given to showcase my art is enough and that I should be grateful because not only is that is for my benefit, but the benefit of all.

I hope you'll pause and consider that before responding. Please stop and think about that. I'm begging you to think before knee-jerk responding.

kurrginatorX said:

Dude … Really? I am bisexual. Trust me. There is nothing prejudicial about it. A homosexual act is just that, a homosexual act. This does not necessarily denote that the person performing the act is a full-fledged homosexual, but let that not beleaguer the fact that the act is what it is. Are you at odds with this because of categorization of your own sexuality?

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No, I'm at odds that you aren't giving the heterosexual and homosexual in bisexual equal billing. You're classifying bisexual as homosexual in what you actually post, so I, again, don't think you understand what bisexual is no matter what you claim you are. I think you're posting as a homosexual who sometimes happens to fuck the other gender. That's what you're actually posting.

And I have no idea what Awkward is nattering on about.

KeithD said:

And I have no idea what Awkward is nattering on about.

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Of course you don't. That would have required you to remember what this thread is about.

AwkwardMD said:

Of course you don't. That would have required you to remember what this thread is about.

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It wasn't about genres, dear. Lit. categories and genres aren't the same thing.

KeithD said:

It wasn't about genres, dear. Lit. categories and genres aren't the same thing.

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You really would cut off your nose to spite your face, wouldn't you?

LupusDei said:

This is much more about modern academic music, heavy metal, and rap mixed in the same album or concert. You may be world's best performer in all of them, but most of your audience won't understand at least one of the different flavours you offer. You will be better off performing three distinct concerts, or publishing three albums.

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I don't think the history of music bears this out, though?

There are plenty of bands who've been very successful with fusing genres. Rage Against The Machine and Faith No More play rap/metal fusion, and there are plenty of symphonic and neoclassical metal bands out there e.g. Apocalyptica. Metal hybridises with just about everything. Rap/classical is harder to find, but I'd argue that Falco's "Rock Me Amadeus" is in the neighbourhood - enough so that it's been covered by a couple of different rap acts.

Cross-pollination between genres is an important part of how music evolves, and we have a very large vocabulary for describing hybrid sounds.

By contrast, I'm having difficulty thinking of any musicians who achieved success with a strategy of maintaining separate audiences in separate genres. I've known metal bands who did unplugged concerts, etc. etc. but it seems to be the same audience listening to the plugged and unplugged sides.

Plus: "Rap" and "classical" are two different, competing sounds. If you put them together, you have to make some difficult choices about how you're going to reconcile them and how much you're going to use of each. You can make rap/classical hybrid stuff, it's probably fair to say you can't make music that is pure rap and pure classical.

But "Romance" and (e.g.) "Lesbian" are not competing attributes. It's entirely possible to write a story that is 100% romance and 100% lesbian. It doesn't stop being a "romance" just because the lovers are of the same gender; it just becomes a particular type of romance, alongside (and overlapping with) "military romance", "billionaire romance", and all those others.

Most retailers understand this. For example, Amazon lists "Call Me By Your Name" both in the "LGBT" subcategory of "Romance", and in the "Romance" subcategory of "LGBT" - they don't require it to be one or the other.

The current Literotica system probably works well for readers whose tastes are straight and map well to the existing categories, but it's poor for everybody else. As somebody who leans towards F-F stories (both writing and reading), I know from reader feedback that the category system makes it hard for the right kind of readers to find my stories.

At the same time, it doesn't do much to protect me from disgruntled readers, because if people want to read lesbian-themed stroke they're going to look for it in Lesbian, and they're not going to enjoy my slow-paced romances. Better navigation would fix that problem too.

LupusDei said:

Once again, you are missing the point entirely. We don't discuss the genres here. It is about consumer preferences. If enough fans that want their performers to wear leather absolutely hate women drummers, those groups will have different scenes. It's justhow marketing works.

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Amazon is the most successful bookseller in human history. I think they know a wee bit about how marketing works, and they're not taking the approach that Literotica has taken on this subject.

Just to reiterate, because it seems like everyone has forgotten that, I am a proponent of a filter system. I mark all my stories as containing whatever content they contain, and then readers set up whatever filters they want in their profiles. Want to see gay material? Check a box. Don't want to see lesbian material? Uncheck a box.

It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.

RubenR said:

I don't think we are necessarily talking about Gay and Lesbian writers here (in comparison to women drummers), but about Gay and Lesbian topics. That's not the same.

Added. I know, you can also have Lesbian Romance, Gay BDSM, and so on, but as well you can have Romantic Horror and Sci-fi Incest, etc. etc. Some topics have been chosen, and I think Gay and Lesbian are rightfully considered specific enough. There is sufficient interest for those topics to exist

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There are fifteen thousand stories in Lesbian, and 18k in Gay Male. Looking at some of the much-smaller niches that get their own categories, seems like that should be more than enough interest to justify finer categorisation within L and G.

Something like "Lesbian Romance", for instance, would dwarf existing categories like Toys, Review, and so forth.

Bramblethorn said:

There are fifteen thousand stories in Lesbian, and 18k in Gay Male. Looking at some of the much-smaller niches that get their own categories, seems like that should be more than enough interest to justify finer categorisation within L and G.

Something like "Lesbian Romance", for instance, would dwarf existing categories like Toys, Review, and so forth.

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Agree - it seems to me that the niche niches are mostly "hetero-norm" type kinks, which probably reflects the overall hetero bias of Lit. The fact that there isn't a specific category for bi-sexual content illustrates this - which was the point being made at the top of the thread. I mean, it's not as if bi-sexuality is rare.

The sooner the site implements a "see tags at the beginning of the story" system, the better. It would solve a whole bunch of issues and shouldn't be so hard to do. The tag search system seems to work reasonably well, but the story tags should be right up front, with a bloody great sign, "If you don't like this writer's declared content, back out now. Do not proceed to the end of the story, do not score it down because it upsets you, do not write a silly comment. Just read something else, okay?"

AwkwardMD said:

You really would cut off your nose to spite your face, wouldn't you?

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That's neither on point nor is it adult. You made a snide comment about me not knowing what the thread was about. The Op (what the thread was about) was a proposal for the need for an intersexed category at Lit. Post 3 brought in the longstanding request for a bisexual category as more--and long previously--requested and as having better separated category standing than intersexed would. Post 4 was the OP poster providing a discussion of his/her view of what bisexual was. All of my posts have addressed the spin out of this post by the OP writer, demurring on what bisexual is, and are very much connected with Lit. categories (as I have long requested a bisexual category here) than anything you have posted to this thread..

You digressed with a post on general genres, which isn't the same as the OP's Lit. categories discussion, and yet you were nasty enough to post that I'm the one who hasn't kept up with the subject of the thread. So, I think you need to look into your own posting behavior, not mine on this thread.

electricblue66 said:

The sooner the site implements a "see tags at the beginning of the story" system, the better. It would solve a whole bunch of issues and shouldn't be so hard to do. The tag search system seems to work reasonably well, but the story tags should be right up front, with a bloody great sign, "If you don't like this writer's declared content, back out now. Do not proceed to the end of the story, do not score it down because it upsets you, do not write a silly comment. Just read something else, okay?"

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Agreed EB. I have several stories with bi (male, because bi girls are always welcome) content and I always warn readers it's there, but invariably I get multiple comments. It would be best to save those that can't be saved from themselves.

KeithD said:

That's neither on point nor is it adult. You made a snide comment about me not knowing what the thread was about.

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Almost, but if you scroll back a little further, you'd find...

KeithD said:

And I have no idea what Awkward is nattering on about.

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Don't get it twisted. You are a petty human being who can't help taking shots at everyone around you. Don't blame me for returning fire.

EDIT: Picking a fight with someone and then blaming them for it is an attribute of a narcissist, a sociopath, a psychopath, and a host of other personality disorders that I wouldn't wish on anyone. At best, it's hypocritical, and it's manipulative if nothing else. Get help.

KeithD said:

The Op (what the thread was about) was a proposal for the need for an intersexed category at Lit. Post 3 brought in the longstanding request for a bisexual category as more--and long previously--requested and as having better separated category standing than intersexed would. Post 4 was the OP poster providing a discussion of his/her view of what bisexual was. All of my posts have addressed the spin out of this post by the OP writer, demurring on what bisexual is, and are very much connected with Lit. categories (as I have long requested a bisexual category here) than anything you have posted to this thread..

You digressed with a post on general genres, which isn't the same as the OP's Lit. categories discussion, and yet you were nasty enough to post that I'm the one who hasn't kept up with the subject of the thread. So, I think you need to look into your own posting behavior, not mine on this thread.

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You picked a fight over Kurriginator's word choice in post 4 because there was nothing in the first 3 that you could pretend had offended you somehow. You go out of your way to be insulted and everyone knows it. Maybe it's time to change usernames again so you can get away with this ridiculous victimization again.

And yes. I disagree with the system by which stories are stored, sorted, and viewed on this site. I'm not a fan of it and I'm not the only author who is put at a disadvantage by it. I take every opportunity I can find to try and get more people on board with change that I believe in. More 'categories' is not the answer. Sorting stories by genre with a filter would benefit a lot of us LGBT writers, and it's a shame you're too short-sighted to see that.

RubenR said:

I completely agree that it would make sense. My comment, however, was to someone suggesting even less categories, and, if I get it correct, placing "Lesbian Romance" stories in Romance.

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That's half of what she suggested. The other half of that suggestion was "Fewer categories. Better filtering and tags." In other words, lesbian romance stories go in Romance alongside gay, straight, and bi romance, but readers can easily filter by those attributes.

My preferred solution would be to take that all the way and get rid of mutually-exclusive categories altogether, just do it entirely by filtering. I recall at least one other erotica site which did this, and it worked fine. For every tag of interest you could choose between "must have", "must not have", and "don't care", and it would return all stories that fit the filter rules.

But as long as we have a category-based approach, the way those categories are delineated says something about the site's priorities. I read your previous comment as "the reason we don't have subcategories of Lesbian or Gay is not enough interest", and I was responding to that - apologies if I misinterpreted that.

AwkwardMD said:

TL;DR we have to keep separate bathrooms for whites and blacks because if we don't then the lines will be too long. Plus all my black friends say they prefer to be marginalized and isolated.

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This is a foolish comparison. Nobody is segregating people. Stories are being categorized. They are not at all the same thing, and they don't have the same ethical implications in any way.

You are not given a smaller venue than others. Your venue is Literotica. Readers have perfect freedom to search wherever they wish on the site to find the stories they like. The site evidently believes that its category system is the most effective system to enable readers to do that.

Is it correct? I don't know. I don't have the data available to know if a filtering system, or a system with fewer categories, or more categories would be more effective. But there's nothing discriminatory or unfair about the site choosing a system based on consumer preference. There's no such thing as illegal or unethical discrimination against a story type.

Bramblethorn said:

I don't think the history of music bears this out, though?

There are plenty of bands who've been very successful with fusing genres. Rage Against The Machine and Faith No More play rap/metal fusion, and there are plenty of symphonic and neoclassical metal bands out there e.g. Apocalyptica. Metal hybridises with just about everything. Rap/classical is harder to find, but I'd argue that Falco's "Rock Me Amadeus" is in the neighbourhood - enough so that it's been covered by a couple of different rap acts.

Cross-pollination between genres is an important part of how music evolves, and we have a very large vocabulary for describing hybrid sounds.

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And yet when one goes to a record store (the few that remain), records are arranged physically into categories. The classical section is separate from the jazz section, which is separate from the rock section. It's imperfect, because of artists that span musical types, but it works, more or less, for the consumer. That's sort of what Literotica does.

I'm not sure if any of us have sufficient information to know whether what Literotica does really works better than some other system, like a filter system. I certainly would favor a more sophisticated filter/tag/preference system that would be ADDED to the existing system, so a reader could set up a profile or profiles for matching his or her preferences with Lit stories. I'm less enthused about replacing the system altogether but could be persuaded if it was clearly better from the reader point of view.

SimonDoom said:

This is a foolish comparison. Nobody is segregating people. Stories are being categorized. They are not at all the same thing, and they don't have the same ethical implications in any way.

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I don't know how you view your art, but mine is like a child to me. For better or for worse I am emotionally invested in what I create, so I take it personally when that creation is limited by anything other than my own imagination.

SimonDoom said:

You are not given a smaller venue than others. Your venue is Literotica. Readers have perfect freedom to search wherever they wish on the site to find the stories they like. The site evidently believes that its category system is the most effective system to enable readers to do that.

Is it correct? I don't know. I don't have the data available to know if a filtering system, or a system with fewer categories, or more categories would be more effective. But there's nothing discriminatory or unfair about the site choosing a system based on consumer preference. There's no such thing as illegal or unethical discrimination against a story type.

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You take readership for granted.

AwkwardMD said:

I don't know how you view your art, but mine is like a child to me. For better or for worse I am emotionally invested in what I create, so I take it personally when that creation is limited by anything other than my own imagination.



You take readership for granted.

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Possibly.

If you have reason to believe that the number of your readers is limited by the way Literotica handles its categories, that's a legitimate complaint. But it's a different sort of complaint from one that characterizes the site as discriminatory in the sense of racial discrimination. If I wrote a gay-themed story, and I probably will at some point, it would be treated the same as anyone else's gay-themed story, regardless of the background of the author.

I suspect we're all operating on incomplete information, as is often the case with Literotica discussions. I imagine Lit could do a lot to enhance reader searching capabilities and perhaps also to enhance author abilities to reach an audience. But I don't really know what works at this site and what doesn't. I would be reluctant to see Literotica get rid of the system it has now entirely, because as a reader I've come to depend upon that system and I find it works pretty well when I'm looking for stories.

SimonDoom said:

Possibly.

If you have reason to believe that the number of your readers is limited by the way Literotica handles its categories,

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I do write bisexual stories. The number of my readers for bisexual stories on Lit. is limited because there's no category here in which to put them without inviting a significant "it doesn't belong here" backlash. So, I don't submit many of those stories to Literotica. That has nothing to do with reader demand, though. There are readers for the category. I reach them elsewhere.

While I've urged Lit. to have a bisexual category, I recognize Literotica's right not to host that category, just as I recognize its right to host twenty-something permutations of heterosexual categories and only two and a half categories of gay. That doesn't mean I feel I have to stop requesting more representation of gay categories or any representation at all of a bi category. The readers are there for these categories.

Back to the OP, I believe that readers would find and accept "transexed" stories in the existing Transsexual and Crossdressing category, so I don't think a separate category for these stories is needed at all--especially since other, more distinct, categories, with, I think, a larger reader base, aren't being fully/equitably served here.

KeithD

#1. It's "Intersexed," not "Transexed."

#2. Back to my original post, I placed my story under the heading "Erotic Couplings" because there was nowhere else it would fit, and I am content with the categorization for the most part. Those who read my stories know that I am about 90% incest, but they also know that all my stories, for the most part, have a twist. For those not familiar with my stories, will they want to look at something under Erotic Couplings if they have formulated an idea as to what kind of stories are usually there (I certainly don't know what kind are)? When all is said and done, intersexed does not belong with transgendered, end of story.

KeithD said:

I do write bisexual stories. The number of my readers for bisexual stories on Lit. is limited because there's no category here in which to put them without inviting a significant "it doesn't belong here" backlash. So, I don't submit many of those stories to Literotica. That has nothing to do with reader demand, though. There are readers for the category. I reach them elsewhere.

While I've urged Lit. to have a bisexual category, I recognize Literotica's right not to host that category, just as I recognize its right to host twenty-something permutations of heterosexual categories and only two and a half categories of gay. That doesn't mean I feel I have to stop requesting more representation of gay categories or any representation at all of a bi category. The readers are there for these categories.

Back to the OP, I believe that readers would find and accept "transexed" stories in the existing Transsexual and Crossdressing category, so I don't think a separate category for these stories is needed at all--especially since other, more distinct, categories, with, I think, a larger reader base, aren't being fully/equitably served here.

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Do you think it would make sense to have sub-categories of the gay/lesbian categories that track the other existing categories, i.e., incest, exhibitionist, nonconsent, mature, etc. etc.?

Sorry about "intersexed."

When all is said and done bisexual even more doesn't belong in gay male.

kurrginatorX said:

#1. For those not familiar with my stories, will they want to look at something under Erotic Couplings if they have formulated an idea as to what kind of stories are usually there (I certainly don't know what kind are)? When all is said and done, intersexed does not belong with transgendered, end of story.

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Erotic Couplings is a broad grab-bag of a category, and as such doesn't have the same rigidity of category policing (by the self-appointed) as do most of the other categories. You could well find a more accepting, more tolerant audience there.

Ironically, your last sentence above is an example of absolutist category policing. In the absence of a tag search, T&C is probably the first place I'd look if I wanted to find intersexed content, on the basis, where else would it be?

SimonDoom said:

And yet when one goes to a record store (the few that remain), records are arranged physically into categories. The classical section is separate from the jazz section, which is separate from the rock section. It's imperfect, because of artists that span musical types, but it works, more or less, for the consumer. That's sort of what Literotica does.

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Yes, because the records they're selling are physical objects and any given disc can only be in one place on the shelves. Hence, the need to assign each album to a single unique category.

This is not a selling point. It's a reaction to a physical limitation, one which does not exist on a site like Literotica, and there is no earthly reason why we need to reproduce that limitation here.

Bramblethorn said:

Yes, because the records they're selling are physical objects and any given disc can only be in one place on the shelves. Hence, the need to assign each album to a single unique category.

This is not a selling point. It's a reaction to a physical limitation, one which does not exist on a site like Literotica, and there is no earthly reason why we need to reproduce that limitation here.

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"No earthly reason" -- that's going too far. You may believe that, on balance, Literotica's use of categories is inferior to some other system, but you cannot rationally argue that there is "no earthly reason" for its system.

I'm on earth, and I'm generally a reasonable person, and I think the system is OK. Not perfect, maybe, but OK. Categories exist everywhere, including online in systems like Amazon or Spotify. Categories relieve consumers of the need to think about what they are looking for and let them look via preexisting categories. Sure, they could use a filter/search system instead, but they might find such a system more work than they want.

Some advantages of the current system from the reader's point of view:

1. The reader doesn't have to think about creating a search. If the reader wants a recent incest story, the reader just visits the current incest story hub. There's nothing easier than that.

2. There's historical information easily available about popular and highly-rated stories in particular categories. Again, it's easy, and it doesn't require as much thinking as a filtering/searching system.

3. It's familiar. Literotica has been this way for 20 years and its readers expect it to be this way. It's part of the value of the site. Presumably, many of its readers regard these familiar features as having value. That can't be dismissed.

4. It may not work for some of the less popular, hybrid categories, but it works really well for the most popular categories, and therefore it probably works just fine for the great majority of readers and authors. I'm sympathetic to authors who claim it doesn't work for them, but there's a balancing act to be made and it's not clear why that balancing act should give more due to the minority at the expense of the majority. The system works fine for me (although I would like better search/filter tools), so you can't tell me that I'm totally irrational for thinking there's reason to keep it the way it is.

5. Scrapping the current system would entail significant costs for many readers and authors. My guess is that many, many readers never do searches. They just use categories and hub pages to find stories. Those readers will be pissed if you scrap the current system.

Those are just a few reasons I can think of. Are there reasons that outweigh them? Maybe. Is there a better system? Probably. But we should steer clear of "no earthly reason" thinking when talking about a position we disagree with. We're all speculating about what system would maximize the satisfaction of Literotica readers.