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Subspace

All_4_Love said:
Is it possible that subspace could be brought on by a psychological stimulus versus being solely a physiological response?
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You can have a physiological response to a psychological stimuli.
Having a signal substance high from psychological stimuli during non- physical BDSM play is no different than heart pounding when you are nervous, blushing when you are embarrassed, for example.
 
DesEsseintes said:
I don't want to dominate (sic) this thread, because it really isn't about me or people like me. But it is certainly true that, with a Dominant and submissive both in tune, who know each other deeply and have a profound trust, and who are experienced in non-physical Dominance, that sub-space can be reached without obvious physical impact. It takes longer as a rule, and happens less frequently, but I have experienced it at times. I have also known the right words and commands bring a sub to the very edge of orgasm, so that even a brush of the hair or a light kiss on the lips can send her over the edge. The mind is itself a physical organ, after all. It would be fascinating to wire up a D/s or M/s couple to an EEG or similar, to see how subspace aligns with and is different from orgasm. As far as I know it has never been done, but I would volunteer like a shot.

Oh - and I agree with those who say that subspace should not be the inevitable end-aim of every session. Too many Doms will push too far and fast if they believe that, and find it hard to understand that it is not all about them.

Anyway - that's my contribution ended. I shall withdraw to the shadows and watch this fascinating discussion continue. Thanks to all involved.
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For those also on Fetlife, there is a neuroscientist in Pittsburgh named Neuromancer28 who publishes a lot of his studies on kink and the brain on his profile and/or his group there, called The Science of Kink. It's fascinating stuff. I saw a presentation he did a few months ago where he hooked someone up to an EEG and showed how her brain waves changed as he did various things to her, such as causing her pain and forcing her to orgasm. Amazing similarities to how our brains react to pain and to pleasure. Once you reach a certain point, intensity is intensity. :)
 
MeltformySir said:
For those also on Fetlife, there is a neuroscientist in Pittsburgh named Neuromancer28 who publishes a lot of his studies on kink and the brain on his profile and/or his group there, called The Science of Kink. It's fascinating stuff. I saw a presentation he did a few months ago where he hooked someone up to an EEG and showed how her brain waves changed as he did various things to her, such as causing her pain and forcing her to orgasm. Amazing similarities to how our brains react to pain and to pleasure. Once you reach a certain point, intensity is intensity. :)
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I'm not on Fetlife, but that sounds absolutely fascinating. Thank you for drawing it to my attention.
 
IrisAlthea said:
You can have a physiological response to a psychological stimuli.
Having a signal substance high from psychological stimuli during non- physical BDSM play is no different than heart pounding when you are nervous, blushing when you are embarrassed, for example.
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This.

I don't doubt that you can induce wacky chemical things from psychological fun and games, and that therein lies a lot of the fun. What's humiliation without the dread and sweaty palms?
 
CutieMouse said:
I developed a [possibly annoying] pragmatic attitude about subspace very early on.

It's an endorphin hit. Biochemically, X happens, flooding the body with Y hormones/ etc, and Z [subspace] is the result.

I don't consider it to be a "goal" or even anything close to "the point" [of BDSM], much less a "priority"... If I don't hit that fuzzy-headed space, no biggie; my subspace is an afterthought, in the big picture sort of way. If I do hit that fuzzy-headed place, my lover tended to just chuckle, and take pride in their abilities. ;)

Of course, I'm also the sort of person who doesn't expect "aftercare". We might lay tangled up in bed for a bit, talking books, philosophy or politics... but it's just as likely I'll get him a drink of water, make sure there's an ashtray nearby (one of my former lovers smoked), and go make dinner while he relaxes or takes a shower. Being fawned over, or tended to would probably irritate the hell out of me, though. lol

I did notice that I handled the transition back to everyday responsibilities/ reality more easily, if I grabbed a chocolate dipped ice cream cone on the way home. I considered that to be more ritual/ habit/ routine, than aftercare...
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This.

I've often gotten my partners there with a vigorous mutualistic vanilla fuck just as much as a caning. Uh oh, trouble in paradise? Could subspace just be jargon for "holy shit, that was amazing, honey!"
 
Netzach said:
This.

I've often gotten my partners there with a vigorous mutualistic vanilla fuck just as much as a caning. Uh oh, trouble in paradise? Could subspace just be jargon for "holy shit, that was amazing, honey!"
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That's exactly why I started this thread... Thank you for your contributions.
I'm thinking that[ "holy shit, that was amazing, honey!] is my personal definition/understanding of subspace as of this point.
 
honeybee_345 said:
That's exactly why I started this thread... Thank you for your contributions.
I'm thinking that[ "holy shit, that was amazing, honey!] is my personal definition/understanding of subspace as of this point.
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I'll be placing my order for some of this later today.

I may or may not be available to report back. :D
 
My definition of subspace seems a bit different than y'all. For me, subspace is when I'm lost in my partner. I can tell I'm getting there when my pleasure derives directly from theirs (more so than normal), I am physically incapable of cumming without their command, and (the biggest indicator) I have trouble looking away from their eyes.

I can enter subspace online, but it's more difficult because subspace is such a vulnerable space and requires trust. Also, in subspace my reflexes are slower and I'm not processing things the way I normally would. In person, a Dom has some control over our environment and can take care of me if things go wrong, whether inside or outside the scene. Online, my Dom can't do shit if I have to deal with a situation.

To me, subspace is more of a spectrum than one specific location. There's the point where I'm very relaxed and willing to please but still feisty, and on the other end there's the point where I would be willing to do literally anything he told me (a point I've only ever reached once or twice). I can pull myself out of the lower levels without too many ill effects, but getting wrenched out of the higher ones is incredibly unpleasant and I generally need aftercare.

Subspace is more triggered emotionally and psychologically for me than it is physically. A lot depends on how I'm connecting with my Dom. Of course, physical restraint and pain will definitely get me there faster ;)

For me, the shaky legs and wobbly feeling is more from either a lot of sex or a lot of pain. Luckily, sex, pain, and submission tend to go hand in hand for me. :) The spaciness occurs with both.

And I concur--chocolate is amazing.
 
All_4_Love said:
No, not the night that it happened. I was in a very high state of arousal and fantasizing that night. I hardly slept at all.

The next day, I plummeted. I started crying inconsolably and then I started having the disorientated feelings, inability to concentrate, etc.

Oddly, and embarrassingly enough to describe, it almost felt like a nervous breakdown, if you will.
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That sounds like subdrop to me. It's happened to me in the past when I was left in deep subspace with no aftercare. I think the lack of sleep made it much worse.

For me at least, subdrop happens when a scene is very intense and/or there's not enough aftercare. Sleep deprivation, dehydration, and PMSing make it worse. For me, it's characterized by mood swings, neediness but not wanting to bother anyone, inability to concentrate, (sometimes) strange cravings, and lots of crying. Those are the days when I type a 500-word message to my partner, only to delete it and just write, "Hey."

Could anyone else chime in on whether they've had the same experiences?
 
Netzach said:
Uh oh, trouble in paradise? Could subspace just be jargon for "holy shit, that was amazing, honey!"
Click to expand...

Speaking only for myself, subspace is far and away beyond Really Great Sex/Play. For me it's an almost trance-like euphoria that mostly comes from a build-up of need/desire and very well-paced sex and pain together (though just pain/stimulus can get me there, too, but not as easily). I'll be very much in the moment, until this wave just overwhelms me and takes me under. It's warm and fuzzy but also like soaring quietly someplace else.

The only thing I've ever experience that was close to it was with some awesomely good hashish back when I was in college, and that was a shadow of what subspace is for me. Regular Very Good Sex is nowhere close. Even regular endorphin highs (like intense lap swimming, for me) don't compare.

And Kyla, I agree, that last description sounds exactly like subdrop to me. Sometimes, even with good aftercare, it will jump me a few days later. I always figured it was my body resetting to 'normal' (or a reasonable facsimile) and just plain missing the whole experience. It's also much less common for me now, living with Master, than when we were long-distance.
 
Kyla_girl said:
and on the other end there's the point where I would be willing to do literally anything he told me
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Just reading this makes me weak. A psychological form of subspace, perhaps? Where he is in complete, undeniable control? You are so blessed to have experienced this. Maybe I did, too, in some indirect way. I'll never really know.

Kyla and Desertslave, I have enjoyed reading your responses. :rose:
 
Wow, there's a name for it! I'd heard that it was possible to effectively get a 'high' from pain, but I've only ever experienced it the once, around the end of last year, during a pretty intense session involving a lot of flogging, amongst other things. The pain from the flogging wasn't over my limit by any means, but it had gone on for much longer than usual, and with being clamped as well, I seemed to reach a point of warm fuzzy detachment that is probably best described as a 'high'. I didn't feel the need for any aftercare as such, although I did spend an hour or so afterwards just chilling, and I did hit the chocolate at little hard later (funny that, I'd never connected the two before). It isn't something that I've repeated since, but I wouldn't rule it out, if I felt I needed that state of mind. I tend to go with my moods over what I like to do in a session, and some things I reserve for a particular frame of mind. When I need it, I find there's nothing quite as peaceful as being hooded and gaged, strapped down in body bag with some electroplay going on, and being left to my own devices for a while. I just sort of drift away into myself, and the odd few times that I've needed that, it's perfect. After reading the discussions here, perhaps it's a different side to the same coin?
 
StrangeView said:
When I need it, I find there's nothing quite as peaceful as being hooded and gaged, strapped down in body bag with some electroplay going on, and being left to my own devices for a while. I just sort of drift away into myself, and the odd few times that I've needed that, it's perfect.
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I do something similar to my sub husband during our Sadistic Sundays (that one day of the week which we try to dedicate to regular play sessions). I tie / tape him up to the bars on our bed, usually on his side, fully naked of course. Then I plug him either with a regular plug or with Aneros Progasm, depending on the situation... I also tie a little bullet vibe or similar to his dick, leaving it to buzz softly but "irritatingly" enough, place ice cubes on his side to melt and drip, maybe gag him with his panties etc. Usually he's had some teasing / humiliation / slapping or sorts done to him earlier, so he's quite "in the zone" already.

After I've set him up, I leave him alone for anything from 20 minutes to 1,5 hours. I check up on him of course, add lube or whatever, but generally it's his "nap time" and his alone with himself. He says this relaxes him almost like nothing else, and eventually he gets a fuzzy and warm feeling, sort of drifts away to his own world. It stops when the stimulation gets too intense, and he has to beg help or permission to cum.

So I don't know if it has something to do with subspace as there's usually hardly any pain involved, but then again his submissiveness isn't driven by pain in general. For us it's just a spice. Anyway, it's wonderful to see and know I can send him off in his own mind, after proper mental and physical preparations have taken place.
 
Very nice mental image of a very effective way of putting someone into subspace. I like the part about tying a bullet vibe to his cock, having it constantly stimulating him for extended periods.... mmmmm! :D
 
Kyla_girl said:
My definition of subspace seems a bit different than y'all. For me, subspace is when I'm lost in my partner. I can tell I'm getting there when my pleasure derives directly from theirs (more so than normal), I am physically incapable of cumming without their command, and (the biggest indicator) I have trouble looking away from their eyes.

...

And I concur--chocolate is amazing.
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Agree Kyla. Same for me. I had a Dom I was so in tune with -- He taught me to cum on command with no touching and often from/while sucking his cock. Jesus, the places he could take me. I think the fact that he told me all I needed to know and what he wanted and taught me how to just let go. It was amazing and he's the only one who's ever gotten me to that place.
 
I have to agree with Kyla and Red.

In my experience, subspace is not about an endorphin high, but an entirely different psychological response. Sure, mixing in pain play can make it easier/more intense, but it's just as unnecessary to it as sexual arousal/stimulation is, no matter how much we may like them together. I have been there without pain, physical or otherwise, and still had my response to pain that came once I was there altered. I've also been there without physical contact, sexual arousal, or having any idea what subspace was.

It's not just a high, but a different state of consciousness. You can loose yourself and/or be lost in yourself, so it seems to be affecting self-other boundaries. In that sense, you could even call it transcendent in a way, and it certainly feels that way.

If you want to get clinical, I highly suspect that the happy submissive 'buzz' I get from doing things for my Dominant is a oxytocin, serotonin, & dopamine cocktail, but that subspace itself is an altered brain-wave pattern comparable to meditation usually accompanied by several neurotransmitter highs. Sure the equivalent of a runner's high may be wonderful mixed into subspace, but I'd say that the core of subspace is more alike to meditation or [extended] sensory deprivation.
 
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To me sub space is surreal.
Closest I can compare it to is like, watching the movie monster during the day and getting so sucked into it you think its dark outside.
Or being so engrossed in a movie or tv show where it is raining that you actually feel like it's raining outside. Does that make sense?
It's transcendental. I feel, like an, almost out of body experience.
Have you ever been to a concert or performance and left feeling emotionally altered, mellowed, just "on a different plane" emotionally, spiritually, and the feeling lasts long after the event was over? So, so surreal. Btw, the concert thing happened to me once. 2001 melissa etheridge live
and alone tour. I felt the effects of it for almost a month after. Pretty cool.
 
watsit2ya said:
To me sub space is surreal.
Closest I can compare it to is like, watching the movie monster during the day and getting so sucked into it you think its dark outside.
Or being so engrossed in a movie or tv show where it is raining that you actually feel like it's raining outside. Does that make sense?
It's transcendental. I feel, like an, almost out of body experience.
Have you ever been to a concert or performance and left feeling emotionally altered, mellowed, just "on a different plane" emotionally, spiritually, and the feeling lasts long after the event was over? So, so surreal. Btw, the concert thing happened to me once. 2001 melissa etheridge live
and alone tour. I felt the effects of it for almost a month after. Pretty cool.
Click to expand...

I can totally relate to that. It is pretty much how I feel when I go into top-space.
While my sub "zones out", I "zone in". I get so absorbed in the scene that everything else fades away - like glaucoma of the attention.

I then develop a very close bond with my sub, it is almost as she is an extension of myself, and I know exactly where to apply sensation next - flogging, caning or licking - and how intense. It is almost psychic and I can halfway "feel" the next strike in advance, which means that I can provide "good pain" (which is where we want to go) with no effort.
 
All_4_Love said:
Is it possible that subspace could be brought on by a psychological stimulus versus being solely a physiological response?
Click to expand...

I'm glad you posted it. In meeting a new partner I get that 'high school virgin crush' feeling when we're just hanging out. I'm hypersensitive to everything. It feels like my whole body is one big clitoris. Any touch is intoxicating. This is all before any play happens. With that said, I do wonder if it can be brought about by psychological stimulus.
 
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