#metoo

Stag of Oberon said:

The violent non-consensual touching of a person's genitals for the sake of incapacitation is about as black and white sexual assault as it gets.

Not the same league? sure. fine. because women don't commonly curl up in a ball on the ground in agony after having their breasts touched. And in the modern age, a woman has legal recourse to said touching, while a little boy in the current year is still told to walk it off.

women are dehumanized through sexualizaion, men are dehumanized by being told their sexuality doesn't matter, which is exactly what you've just done here.

Click to expand...

No, it’s regular assault.
The difference between the two is intent and context.
A fight on the playground between to boys which results in someone getting kicked in the junk as an act of aggression or self defense, is vastly different than a female being molested by someone bigger or in a position of power. That is all I said. How it is handled or mishandled beyond is not something I’m disputing here. By your rationale, someone defending themselves by kicking their attacker in the balls, could be brought up on sexual assault charges. Which would be ridiculous.
And no, I’ve not dehumanized anyone nor am I dismissing your point, simply pointing out the disparity between two situations that are unrelated to one another, except that you seem to want them to be.

Stag of Oberon said:

well now that would be a comparison, wouldn't it.

Click to expand...

No, it’s not, because there isn’t.
Equal pay and being passed over for promotions because of gender is not an issue amongst men with men. Men are not considered unstable and their opinions are not openly and jokingly dismissed in the workplace/social gatherings/home because of their hormones or menstrual cycle. Men were not brought to orgasm by their doctors to cure “ hysteria “ partially brought on by the emphetamines they were prescribed by the same doctor. It’s socially acceptable for men to be openly promiscuous, while women are demeaned and shamed for it. Low sex drives in men are met with concern, sympathy, and have millions of dollars dumped into research and curing them, meanwhile women are still being butchered by careless doctors during mastectomies. And the list goes on. Do you really need me to continue to drive home the fact that there’s an OBVIOUS difference between how things are approached based on gender?
And EVERYONE has the right to defend themselves, I don’t give a shit who or what is attacking whom.

Stag of Oberon said:

But yeah, keep telling yourself that men aren't oppressed. I hope for your sake that pretty little bubble you live in never bursts, because I understand it to be particularly ugly for BDSM enthusiasts.

Click to expand...

Friend, I’m not saying that men don’t have their share of social issues and hardships, they certainly do. But claiming that they are oppressed in even half as many ways or as often, is bullshit. Not to mention, has absolutely NOTHING to do with the metoo movement and only serves to highlight the issue. Also, just because I don’t advertise my issues or what I’ve been through, doesn’t mean I live in some reality proof bubble full of sunshine and puppies and shit. I don’t feel the need to dump my luggage out and invite people into my problems, nor are they anyone’s fucking business unless I make it such, so you can check that bit of attitude at the door if you want to have any kind of real dialogue with me.

Stag of Oberon said:

yeah. you just fucking did. Fuck You.
Silencing victims IS THE PROBLEM. You just made yourself part of that problem. Congrats, you're a rape culture denier.

Click to expand...

*Sigh
See, this is why I put that aside in there, so you wouldn’t take that as an attack on you. My words are directed at both the OP for calling this thread what he did, when it should have been called “ I’m too shit scared to be the Domliest Dom that ever Dom’d, because no means no and I can’t handle that.” as well as any other guy that is taking personal offense to the metoo movement having nothing to do with men, so they have to make it about them in some way.
Now, how does this make me a rape culture denier? I didn’t belittle your pain or dismiss your situation, I even went out of my way to make sure you knew that those words weren’t aimed at you ( which I don’t usually do ). I didn’t tell you to not speak, nor did I say victims of sexual abuse not speak up. Quite the opposite. I called out those who stand by and don’t get involved, and claim that they aren’t doing anything wrong, as well as those who cant stand the fact that this has nothing to do with them, so they try to twist it in some way so they also get to be part of it.

Think about it, go back and read through. This thread is titled #metoo. What part of anything this thread has devolved into, is about that hashtag and what it represents? The answer is nothing, beyond the few that continue to point out that very fact. That’s my point. Fuck me indeed.

Stag of Oberon said:

I DO NOT. Not even from you.

excuse me, i've been crafting this post in spite of a lot of pain. I'll be off to pain vomit in the shower now. I mention this because this headache is the only reason i'm delaying judgement on ignoring you.

I think the only traitor that ever cut me deeper on this board (excluding myself) was Stella, who frankly, happens to be one of my personal heros. You're in fine company.

Click to expand...

Clearly I’ve either not articulated myself properly or you’ve misinterpreted what I’ve said, since I’m not possessed of the lack of character to perpetrate the kind of thing you seem to think I am. I’m a lot of things, some pretty bad, but not anywhere near the kind of thing you just accused me of. Hopefully, this clears that up. If you want to take it to pm, I just turned mine back on.

But, if you are still so twisted up by what you’ve experienced, that you can’t see the forest for the trees in terms of my meaning, and still fully believe that ( not only are women no more oppressed, demeaned, and abused than men, but that ) I’m the kind of person you seem to think I am given your response to my previous post. Then I’m no longer interested in interacting with you, so feel free to block me or whatever. Do what you gotta do man. Your choice.

Nezhul said:

Ahem.

Click to expand...

Quit clearing your throat, pissant.
I know you’re there, I just don’t care.
Adults are talking.

_Necrosomantic_ said:

See, this is why I put that aside in there, so you wouldn’t take that as an attack on you.
[..]
Clearly I’ve either not articulated myself properly or you’ve misinterpreted what I’ve said, since I’m not possessed of the lack of character to perpetrate the kind of thing you seem to think I am. I’m a lot of things, some pretty bad, but not anywhere near the kind of thing you just accused me of. Hopefully, this clears that up. If you want to take it to pm, I just turned mine back on.

Click to expand...

You knew stag's anecdotal evidence of how your country's police and judiciary punished him for being a victim of abuse, quite clearly because he's male and undoubtedly not an isolated issue, and you dismissed it with;

_Necrosomantic_ said:

Men are not oppressed in this country. Period. End of story. I don’t give a shit what chip on the shoulder you think you have that means the world owes you something and you take offense to sweeping statements about how easy guys have it. Fuck you, you selfish, pompous, straw man argument vomiting, borderline retarded, callow and flaccid little cowards. You’re not even remotely oppressed, and if you claim to be, you ARE part of the problem. Because this isn’t about you, try as you might to constantly make it about you.

Click to expand...

I mean, you can say that wasn't directed at him but you did say it while addressing what he said about playground assault and it implicitly involves him.

Blue said:

You knew stag's anecdotal evidence of how your country's police and judiciary punished him for being a victim of abuse and barred him from seeking justice for it, quite clearly because he's male and undoubtedly not an isolated issue, and you dismissed it with;

I mean, you can say that wasn't directed at him but you did say it while addressing what he said about playground assault and referred to "cowards" so it obviously wasn't just directed at Nezhul.

Click to expand...

No. He’s saying that as a VICTIM that what he was writing didn’t apply to Stag. What Stag experienced is a huge problem for men, especially since it is so shaming.
But it is not metoo.

Yes. Not all men. We get it. You, Con, are not all men. Hopefully my kids are. My brother.
This thread is called metoo. The metoo movement is about women speaking up against men like the idiots that started the thread.
The “good guys” protest a lot, IMO. And we women and a lot of men are sick of once again having to make men feel all better about it.

Farawyn said:

No. He’s saying that as a VICTIM that what he was writing didn’t apply to Stag. What Stag experienced is a huge problem for men, especially since it is so shaming.
But it is not metoo.

Yes. Not all men. We get it. You, Con, are not all men. Hopefully my kids are. My brother.
This thread is called metoo. The metoo movement is about women speaking up against men like the idiots that started the thread.
The “good guys” protest a lot, IMO. And we women and a lot of men are sick of once again having to make men feel all better about it.

Click to expand...

I was just saying why stag was upset because I don't think Necro saw why.

If this was about black people being opppressed none of you would say a word.
But it’s about women.
Why do you presume to know what we women go through?

Blue said:

I was just saying why stag was upset because I don't think Necro saw why.

Click to expand...

Im sure he did. He cares about Stag.
I’m upset for Stag. Not only my brother, but I’ve worked with male rape victims. Abuse victims.
Most of the rapists were other males.
Not always.
But mostly.
It’s a real thing. And it needs to be less shamed so that more men come forward.

But that is not this.

How you guys can’t see how society is towards women is further proof of how deep rape culture runs.

Farawyn said:

Im sure he did. He cares about Stag.
I’m upset for Stag. Not only my brother, but I’ve worked with male rape victims. Abuse victims.
Most of the rapists were other males.
Not always.
But mostly.
It’s a real thing. And it needs to be less shamed so that more men come forward.

But that is not this.

How you guys can’t see how society is towards women is further proof of how deep rape culture runs.

Click to expand...

Please stop putting words in my mouth.
I don't know what you think my argument is but my entire point this whole time has just been that I don't agree that innocent men should feel personally responsible when a small fraction of malicious men rape people.
As far as I know I haven't commented on social conventions at all.

Blue said:

Please stop putting words in my mouth.
I don't know what you think my argument is but my entire point this whole time has just been that I don't agree that innocent men should feel personally responsible when a small fraction of malicious men rape people.
As far as I know I haven't commented on social conventions at all.

Click to expand...

I wasn’t talking about rape. I was with Kim talking about rape culture.
And you guys means you guys. In a general way. Not you.

I’ll amend it to men. Oh wait.

Not all men.

*sighs*
A small percentage of men.

Sure.

Ok.

They must be REALLY fucking busy.


No, not all men. Just some

LostGirlTink said:

*sighs*
A small percentage of men.

Sure.

Ok.

They must be REALLY fucking busy.


No, not all men. Just some

Click to expand...

Even if 99.999% of men were rapists I would still be saying the 0.0001% should not be considered responsible for the majority's actions because I don't believe culpability for individual crimes is or should be collectively applicable.

~ ~ ~

Unless of course anybody in that 0.0001% incited or facilitated their actions which I understand is the caveat some of you are arguing with, and I agree with.

Blue said:

Even if 99.999% of men were rapists I would still be saying the 0.0001% should not be considered responsible for the majority's actions because I don't believe culpability for individual crimes is or should be collectively applicable.

~ ~ ~

Unless of course anybody in that 0.0001% incited or facilitated their actions which I understand is the caveat some of you are arguing with, and I agree with.

Click to expand...

You really need to get over this idea that anyone is saying you are responsible for the actions of others.
You are simply responsible for your own.
If you choose to ignore shitty human behavior that doesn’t make you responsible for rape.

It might mean you are responsible for perpetuating rape culture by ignoring shitty behavior but unless you are a rapist you aren’t responsible for rape.

You do understand that the difference don’t you?

Of course I do, it's my point.
One person suggested it as an incentive to make men more actively resisting to sexual assault since it would have a personal connotation. I wasn't trying to argue this with anyone else because I know that's not what you're saying and don't believe.

I'm going to take pointers from stag and just shut up I guess.

Blue said:

Even if 99.999% of men were rapists I would still be saying the 0.0001% should not be considered responsible for the majority's actions because I don't believe culpability for individual crimes is or should be collectively applicable.

~ ~ ~

Unless of course anybody in that 0.0001% incited or facilitated their actions which I understand is the caveat some of you are arguing with, and I agree with.

Click to expand...

Then what’s the big deal?
For those men that it does not pertain to, carry on. Walk the walk.

#metoo was started by women for women. The fact that this thread is titled “#metoo” means it’s about that movement specifically. What gets me every time is that whenever a topic pertaining to the shitty behavior women put up with comes up, there’s always a man to say “#notallmen” and “men have it bad too!”

The thing is, we know men don’t have all sunshine and puppy-cats. But we’ve chosen to band together and let it be known what is wrong in the hopes that the problem can be remedied. If we don’t speak out together, no one would know how widespread the problem is.

And when it comes to men with the “not all men” and “we have it bad too” arguments, I say “OK! Make it known, start your movement! Band together and make a positive change!”

But while you do that, please don’t put down or take away from the collective message of women dealing with sexual assault.

This is the one thing that really gets me in these threads. I don’t want to take away from the plight of men. I’m not a man, I don’t know what the major concerns are. If men band together and make it known while not putting women’s movements down, I’d be more likely to listen. Not that I’m not listening, but I can’t help my knee jerk reaction to someone taking away the point and focus of #metoo.

MeekMe said:

#metoo was started by women for women. The fact that this thread is titled “#metoo” means it’s about that movement specifically. What gets me every time is that whenever a topic pertaining to the shitty behavior women put up with comes up, there’s always a man to say “#notallmen” and “men have it bad too!”

The thing is, we know men don’t have all sunshine and puppy-cats. But we’ve chosen to band together and let it be known what is wrong in the hopes that the problem can be remedied. If we don’t speak out together, no one would know how widespread the problem is.

And when it comes to men with the “not all men” and “we have it bad too” arguments, I say “OK! Make it known, start your movement! Band together and make a positive change!”

But while you do that, please don’t put down or take away from the collective message of women dealing with sexual assault.

This is the one thing that really gets me in these threads. I don’t want to take away from the plight of men. I’m not a man, I don’t know what the major concerns are. If men band together and make it known while not putting women’s movements down, I’d be more likely to listen. Not that I’m not listening, but I can’t help my knee jerk reaction to someone taking away the point and focus of #metoo.

Click to expand...

Well said.

Stag of Oberon said:

Bramblethorn's post was enlightening, but I would add to that list of caveats; if men don't even know they *can* be raped by half the population, whether or not they are willing to disclose it is a moot point.

Click to expand...

That would certainly be an issue if the survey simply asked something like "have you ever been raped?" but that's not how it's done.

Here's the questionnaire for the Personal Safety Survey that I mentioned earlier. The word "rape" is never used. Respondents are asked questions specifically about experiences with male perpetrators, and then separately about experiences with female perpetrators.

Questions that would be asked include:

"Has a woman ever touched you, without your permission, in a sexual way, such as unwanted touching, grabbing, kissing or fondling?"

"The next questions are about any sexual activity you may have been forced into by a woman, since the age of 15. Has any woman ever forced you, or tried to force you, into sexual activity against your will?" (A previous question asks whether the respondent is currently in a relationship; if yes, the words "including your current partner" are inserted.)

"Apart from any incidents you have already mentioned, has any woman ever threatened to force you into any sexual activity?" (Again, "including your current partner" inserted if applicable.)

Stag of Oberon said:

So it deliberately restricts itself to forcible rape, and then fails to make that distinction later? You don't see the gender bias there?

If you're going to make generalized assertions about rape, based on a study, that study needs to also use generalized definition of rape, not just one narrow type.

For better or worse, the definition is without or against consent. Force is no longer part of it.

BTW, for whatever reason, I can't follow thst questionare link, so I only have what you show me.

Click to expand...

Sorry, looks like the URL got mangled. Try here: http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/4906.0.55.0032016?OpenDocument

Past that, I'm going to leave off this conversation, because I sense that we're getting back into that "incompatible discussion styles" bit and I don't have the spoons for that right now.

Blue said:

I was just saying why stag was upset because I don't think Necro saw why.

Click to expand...

I appreciate the attempt to clarify, but I understand why he’s upset, and I attempted to be civil and make sure it was understood that I wasn’t dismissing his trauma or mocking it, merely pointing out that it has nothing to do with #metoo and how I feel about men somehow having to relate this back to them whenever the issue comes up. It’s annoying, demeaning to women, and only serves to reinforce the need I feel to apologize for my gender and call them out for being self absorbed dipshits.

If you’ll notice, no part of any of that is victim blaming, rape enabling, or culture denying. But I guess that’s what you’d expect from a villain like me, right friend?

Blue said:

You knew stag's anecdotal evidence of how your country's police and judiciary punished him for being a victim of abuse, quite clearly because he's male and undoubtedly not an isolated issue, and you dismissed it with

Click to expand...

Let’s just go ahead and ignore the fact that this law that treats men a certain way in domestic disturbances exists for a REASON ( in this thread titled after a movement about how women are grossly mistreated by men and their problems largely ignored in this country ) and go ahead and look at what I said and why I’m so awful.

” Men are not oppressed in this country. Period. End of story. I don’t give a shit what chip on the shoulder you think you have that means the world owes you something and you take offense to sweeping statements about how easy guys have it. Fuck you, you selfish, pompous, straw man argument vomiting, borderline retarded, callow and flaccid little cowards. You’re not even remotely oppressed, and if you claim to be, you ARE part of the problem. Because this isn’t about you, try as you might to constantly make it about you.

Stag ( and this short paragraph is the only part of this statement I’m addressing to you ), I’m sorry for what happened to you and I’m not downplaying your trauma, you know I wouldn’t do that to you, this dumpster fire of a thread is hardly the place to have that discussion. But ( again ) that’s not what this is about. It’s not about the OP’s jackassy persecution complex. It’s not about whether or not men can be assaulted and dismissed or shamed into not speaking up too.”

I stand by my words.
Calling out OP and others that take the stance of themsleves being oppressed too in some way, in a country that majorly and loudly caters to, and favors those with a Y chromosome is all of those things I said, on top of just being wrong. My use of hyperbole is meant for emphasis, not to be taken as a literal statement, I assumed that was a given.
I’m not in the habit of walking eggshells around anyone, and yes, I was disagreeing with Stag. Still am. But I wasn’t attacking him or even referencing what happened to him, except to clarify that I wasn’t referencing what happened to him or attacking him for it. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.
His views are obviously a very touchy subject, and for good reason, but that doesn’t mean I won’t argue with him or tell him he’s wrong if I disagree. Playground fights and sexual assault aren’t the same thing. Men have it easier than women in this country, by and large. The metoo movement isn’t a soapbox to promote male issues. And people that stand by and do nothing or tolerate the kind of disgusting criminal behavior in question, are also guilty ( they just didn’t PHYSICALLY do anything wrong ). That’s what my point was and still is.

As for his being mad/hurt/betrayed/etc, that’s not my problem. I went out of my way to point out that I wasn’t directing things at him. Which I don’t do. I even went back to try to clarify and open a separate line of dialogue to clear things up. Which I NEVER do. Beyond that, I stop giving a shit when someone accuses me of something I didn’t do and labels me as something I’m not. He can be a child and block me. I am not here for drama, and I don’t have time for this little pity party, high school, ineffectual, Mickey Mouse bullshit. Fin.

Men are not oppressed in this country. Period. End of story.

Click to expand...

Well, you could argue that.

If terrorists are taking a bunch of hostages, who the police negotiates for first? Women. Is that fair? No, because in my mind a life is a life, regardless of your gender.

Another example. During divorce wife often gets a good share of man's property, even if she didn't work at all for that. Is it fair? No. It would be really hard for a man to get 50% of property out of a divorce if the wife earned it and he did nothing. For a woman? Easy peasy.

In case you didn't know, a woman can cheat on her husband, have a baby from another man, divorce her husband and BY LAW he still has to pay her for the upbringing of this child. Which is not his, but that was birthed while she was with him.

There was an event where a woman cut man's dick off and dumped into garbage disposal and turned it on. Barely got mentioned. People were joking about it as a comical event.
Now, imagine what would have happened if a man cut woman's tit off and shredded it in a garbage disposal? This would be a national tragedy, no one's joking, everyone are outraged and all sports events start from the minute of silence.
*example taken from elsewhere. Real example still.*

Women often complain that they earn less than men for the same job. Now guess who's being saved first from a burning building? Guess who goes to the battlefield in case of war? Is it women? Sure, there's a small amount of volunteers in the army, but they are rarely ever sent to the front lines.
Now, on another note - who pays for dating? Man is expected to spend A LOT of money on a woman if he is serious. Is that fair?

Look, you can't call this all "fair". This is all are forms of inequality, oppression. Sure, women face a lot of crap in other areas - but don't you say that men are not oppressed. It's just that you are so used to this oppression that you view it as normal. More than that - if you dare say that it isn't, the entire society will turn on you.

Women have their hardships, but they have their benefits. Those benefits are considered totally OK for them to have.
Men also have hardships, and also have benefits. But for some reason, those benefits are considered an awful proof of gender oppression. Woman's benefits? No, they are entitled to them just because.
Men, however, should be entitled to nothing that women don't get also.

Men are oppressed all around the world. Women are ALSO oppressed differently, no one denies that. But this is not a one-sided issue. it's just that women's issues are vocalized by society and are loudly discussed, while male issues are shunned and shushed and shamed at every opportunity.

p.s. Several days later, I like hot this thread just grinded to a halt instantly because no one can argue these points so let's just pretend they're not there. #metoo, I think, goddamit!