sub has its own definition or is an abbreviation for submissive...?

Okay So...
I was having a conversation with a wonderful new friend, from Lit actually, and we came to the topic of "subs" and submissive/mission...

With no disrespect to her I'd like to say we did not completely understand each other, and I wanted to bring it here for further discussion. But if you're reading this, K, I enjoy your perspective... and hope not to offend you.

I am sure this has been talked to death here...

I was wondering if I could like drop what ideas I have formed and maybe the people here could like weight in... tell me if my perception is totally offbase, or I am just forming my own ideas. (I am known for this)

Am I just forming my own opinion based on what I am seeing and though I may not be dead on about everything, Am I comming along well in my reasoning the information I have read and heard....

Okay here goes my questions and reasons...

I had understood that D/s is either Dominant/nation(dominant or domination) and submissive/mission (is that making sence) and that this is a umbrella term (or mostly encompassing term... including (but not limited to) diffrent forms of D/s relationships... ie M/s relationships or D/lg relationships, or Domme/sub or the Rope Tier/tiee (whatever that's called) and even Top/bottom in the sense that the bottom is submissive to the sexually dominant Top...

These types of submission are all very diffrent and not exchangeable... but can all be called "types of submission"... right?
Now...

sub to me means submissive... its a shortened verision of submissive... yes?

It (to me) does not imply ANY personality traits except at least at some point (wether selective about the person you submit to and/or frequency/degree of submission or not) this person doesn have the submissive personality trait (to whatever degree).

I say this because there are submissive people who don't even practice BDSM, they just submit and its just their personality to do so,
My mother in law is one... she doesn't even know it, and she would be so much happier if she knew why she felt she had to do the things she does... its hard to explain, but if you knew her, you'd understand.
She submits to the boys all the time and she doesn't even know that she is doing it. Its about power exchange (or one sided power hogging in this case)

Or someone like me, who is a socially dominant woman, but enjoys to be sexually submissive, that's not implied with sub, it has to be specified.

However, it can reffer to a sexual cituation, when I hear it I do not automaticly think, "that's so and so's bottom... or that's so and so's sex partner..." when someone says that's so and so's sub.
I would think that this person was the submissive one in the power exchange between them, regardless of type of kink or sex they enjoyed (assuming one even knows)...

It only says submissive, not any other traits
(like strength of character, or social approach regardless of how "some" subs may be the term sub doesn't reffer to a socially dominant, carreer oriented, selectively submissive people... that's just one type...)

the other traits must be specified... they are not implied with the label sub.

I was under the impression that if you don't know someones exact type of relationship calling the pyl the sub is a decently unoffensive general term a person could use in reffrence to someone... always politlely... of course...
Like you can call almost any kind of Dominant a Dom, and thought he may be a Master... its not offensive as you are reffering to Him with regard to his postition of power.

Also I was under the impression D/s reffered to the way the PYLs/pyls interacted with each other, and does not IMPLY sex...
like in the case of the ProDomme and sub that do not actually have intercourse, and just to say he is her sub or submissive in a power exchange or D/s relationship doesn't imply she will have sex with him, she may get him off throught sexual acts, like cbt or a strapon in the ass with a good old fashioned reach around, in his wildest wet dream, but that's the extent for them.
-so it would have to be a innacurate to say a sub implies sex... right?

I am not saying other kinds of D/s don't have lots of sex, I am not saying the inverses of what I am saying are true... (just because a slave is a sub doesn't make a sub a slave... I know this...)

I know people say there is no D/s rulebook or whatever so maybe you can help me by telling me if my deductions are correct...?

Because I sometimes think people assume because I am young that I am just some naieve kid... and I do think I have a decent idea of how this works...

I guess I will soon find out...

Thanx in advance...

After wading through this quickly, I will give an abbreviated, quick response to a couple of points.

unfoundiamond said:

and even Top/bottom in the sense that the bottom is submissive to the sexually dominant Top...

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A Top does not have to be sexually dominant in any sense, just as a bottom does not have to be sexually submissive...in fact often no sex is involved at all, and some people will even dispute it is anything to do with domination or submission at all.

unfoundiamond said:

sub to me means submissive... its a shortened verision of submissive... yes?

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For most, but some people really hate the shortened version of sub....think there is a thread around here somewhere about it.

unfoundiamond said:

I say this because there are submissive people who don't even practice BDSM, they just submit and its just their personality to do so,
My mother in law is one... she doesn't even know it, and she would be so much happier if she knew why she felt she had to do the things she does... its hard to explain, but if you knew her, you'd understand.
She submits to the boys all the time and she doesn't even know that she is doing it. Its about power exchange (or one sided power hogging in this case)

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As you say, some people do not practice or have an interest or affinity with BDSM, so I would be careful about assuming someone like your m-i-l does what she does, acts as she does, because she has submissive personality traits.....life can sometimes be a lot more complicated or simplistic than that, resulting in having nothing to do with being submissive in nature.

unfoundiamond said:

Because I sometimes think people assume because I am young that I am just some naieve kid... and I do think I have a decent idea of how this works....

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A lot of younger people assume this is what people think when the reality may be closer to they are trying to share something with you based on experience you cannot have had simply due to your age (eg. someone of 20 cannot claim to have had as much as, or the same life experiences of someone of 40....many of those experiences such as parenting a child to adulthood, or knowing what it is like to be 60yo, or how it feels to be caned when you have multiple health issues including age, planning for and building a career, would be physically impossible...but if that is mentioned, a lot take offence instead of seeing it for just what it is, reality). It is natural you are going to be niave about many things because you have not even reached a stage in your life where you would have experienced it...it doesn't mean you will have the same experience, but nor does it mean the older person is putting you down, discounting your experience and thoughts, or has nothing to share from which you could learn in some way. LOL, try not to be touchy about your age because believe me, you will get to that older bracket quicker than you anticipate, and to date no-one has found a way to reverse it....enjoy being young, accept you cannot know everything (ever in fact), and take from the experiences of others what might be of benefit to you. Funny thing about life is what we expect it to be when we are 20, 30, 40, is rarely picture perfect what it actually becomes..some things may be better, some things may be worse.

unfoundiamond said:

Thanx in advance...

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You're welcome.

Catalina

This is why Pyl/pyl is a great abbreviation. People who are acquiescent (five dollar word to try to avoid saying submissive) to another are going to label themselves as how they see themselves. If someone labels themselves the same they will understand. Everyone brings their own mindset to their label.

What is great about this wonderful world we have been drawn to is that it literally includes all kinds. Trying to put it into terms that everyone can understand is difficult. I will go ahead and say impossible. A slave will not understand an lg anymore than a sub will understand a slave. And that is fine. Age has nothing to do with it. Everyone starts somewhere. When the call is heard and answered comes at different times for different people.

There are commonalities as there are differences. Think of it as making a stew. We both choose to use the same vegetables. However, you may choose to include beef where I will choose to include veal.Technically the same thing, but at the same time very different. In the end both are stew. It is a matter of which one you prefer the taste of.

I am woman
I am friend
I am sensual
I am brave
I am strong
I am intelligent
I am sometimes equal
I am sub~

I see...

Cat...
I wasn't saying all older people think my age is a reflection if my expiriences... Most older people give me a lot of credit...
But some people don't... and lately I have felt it wasn't simply peoples informative nature.... And....
Not from you Cat, but I have gotten a few blatant accusations on this board... so I felt I had to add my perspective... but I don't mean to sound like I am defensive...

I seem to have gotten some incorrect information on T/b, because I have heard people calling themselves this, who where talking about sexually...

But people say things that are wrong ALL the time...

I sometimes tend to think people know what they are talking about... and find out later... the information is wrong...

Thanx...

Oh and I didn't mean to start another bottom conversation... I was trying to get all my thoughts out... so maybe it would "leave no stone unturned" and make sure its all covered...

I've always..at least until being seriously and sarcastically reminded by other lit posters that a sub is a sandwich and that a submissive is a submissive... thought that the terms were interchangeable...

My first gut thought is .. who fucking cares... I mean really who cares if someone disagrees to the term YOU use to describe who you are. What right do they have to dictate to you something so subjective. Unless your PYL wants you to use a certain term or spell it a certain way.. no one has the right to tell you which word is right or wrong..

So.. if I offend someone with this.. I'm sorry, it's not my intent.. but why should i have to conform with what someone else says.

So..from now on..

I am a sub. I am proudly a sub. I am proud to be his sub, his pet. And when I say "sub" ... I mean it as an abbreviation of the word submissive. And if you dont like that I do that.. you can bite my left toe

EmpressFi said:

I've always..at least until being seriously and sarcastically reminded by other lit posters that a sub is a sandwich and that a submissive is a submissive... thought that the terms were interchangeable...

My first gut thought is .. who fucking cares... I mean really who cares if someone disagrees to the term YOU use to describe who you are. What right do they have to dictate to you something so subjective. Unless your PYL wants you to use a certain term or spell it a certain way.. no one has the right to tell you which word is right or wrong..

So.. if I offend someone with this.. I'm sorry, it's not my intent.. but why should i have to conform with what someone else says.

So..from now on..

I am a sub. I am proudly a sub. I am proud to be his sub, his pet. And when I say "sub" ... I mean it as an abbreviation of the word submissive. And if you dont like that I do that.. you can bite my left toe

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I totally agree Fi. I mean does it really matter what word we use. I tend to call myself a subbie a lot. *shrugs* Sub, subbie, submissive, it all means the same to me..I see differences between submissive, slave, and bottom though.

I see.

Madeto...
I like your p.o.v.... and thanx for the beef stew metaphor, I am starving... (and how's you know I wouldn't use veal? You are right... and you must be psychic...)

Always a pleasure to read your posts Made!

And what you wrote makes a lot of sence...

And also...

I just want to be well informed... I don't wanna open my mouth and look like a tourist... =D

EmpressFi said:

I've always..at least until being seriously and sarcastically reminded by other lit posters that a sub is a sandwich and that a submissive is a submissive... thought that the terms were interchangeable...

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Didn't mean to offend over it, just alerting a newbie who expressed a desire to learn, that some people take offence over such things. Personally it doesn't bother me, but for those who might be more social in their interactions, it never hurts to be aware because as can be seen on this board alone, it doesn't take much to upset some.

Catalina

unfoundiamond said:

Cat...
I wasn't saying all older people think my age is a reflection if my expiriences... Most older people give me a lot of credit...
But some people don't... and lately I have felt it wasn't simply peoples informative nature.... And....
Not from you Cat, but I have gotten a few blatant accusations on this board... so I felt I had to add my perspective... but I don't mean to sound like I am defensive...

I seem to have gotten some incorrect information on T/b, because I have heard people calling themselves this, who where talking about sexually...

But people say things that are wrong ALL the time...

I sometimes tend to think people know what they are talking about... and find out later... the information is wrong...

Thanx...



Oh and I didn't mean to start another bottom conversation... I was trying to get all my thoughts out... so maybe it would "leave no stone unturned" and make sure its all covered...

Click to expand...

T/b can be sexual, or it may be totally non sexual, depends on the people involved.

I honestly see it as an abbreviation, and think we spend way too much time on trying to nail this down and hone it to a really narrow assumed set of behaviors/responses. It's why I have no interest in the labelling, no matter how much I may ever love letting my Bull boss me around (note that I prefer terminology out of my cuckolding lifestyle, not my SM one for him) and why, frankly I think the relentless arguing over real versus unreal submissive or merely bottom is overplayed.

For most people the line between physical and emotional surrender is not a brick wall. And for a lot of people the emotional surrender component is never going to be enough for them to claim an identity "sub." Or the emotional surrender to them enough to revamp a primarily submissive ID as "Dominant."

Sub is a sandwich... *laughing*

EmpressFi

I figured it doesn't really matter in the end... but when I want advice I go to people and ask... I don't have anyone in my life who can give me any information about this, since the only one who knows is Him...

And since He and I enjoy both sides of the power exchange, I don't think we are the authority on submissive...

Which is where you lovely people come in...

I know it doesn't matter... but thx for reminding me not to be such a nerdy definition freak...

I thought T/b was basically just sexual.

Yes... labels are over-rated...

I hate labels too... (I often refuse them to be put on me, or my relationships too)

But I am sometimes forced to use them when reffering to and speaking about other people... or the "lifestyle"

Which is how this came up.

(And I am not trying to start another T/b thread... but that was part that was somewhat incorrect... so it was touched on, but the real topic here was ment to be if sub is or is not ment to be an abbreviation for submissive)

In a conversation with someone else I was told it isn't... it is its own term or title... with a diffrent meaning or implications than submissive...

I just need to be able to understand others, and maybe that means having people give me their definition is the only way to do that...

Because occasionally I will be refferring to someone else, or reading in the forum, and I want to make sure what I understand what the words mean... .

That's all..

Sub, here, is shorthand for submissive.
Sub, elsewhere, is shorthand for submarine, or a prefix to mean lower or beneath.

Context is very important. Here, context tells us that sub = submissive. People that get uptight are just that, uptight. The whole uptight thing is why folks use the PYL/pyl thing. Frankly, I think it is a ludicrous term, but it fails to offend, so it gets used.

I don't care if someone calls my gal a sub, submissive, bottom, or slave. I care if they use the word "my" before any of those.

I don't care if anyone refers to me as a dom, dominant, top, or master. I care if they put "my" in front of it. Though in the case of the last word, I will be unhappy if someone uses it as a term of address simply because it implies a specific relationship. Am I going to get insulted? No, but I will correct that person. Gee, I'm not uptight. Hell, I'm not even uptight enough to capitalise those words in this context.

And good terms for the person what does the tying with rope would include rope top and rigger, among others. Those are the ones I use at least.

intothewoods said:

I thought T/b was basically just sexual.

Click to expand...

T/b, at least in my experience, and in the context of BDSM, just refers to people involved purely in the physical side of BDSM practice. In other words, spanking, but no D/s power exchange.

You can Top or bottom without it explicitly being sexual. I do it quite a bit.

For most people labels are a shortcut to give an idea of themselves. Some find them to be evil things while others wear theirs proudly waving it like a banner. To each their own. I'm in the middle. I don't want to only be referred to as that, but I will gladly claim it. The only time a label bothers me is when it is incorrect. Which for me means my definition of that label. I will not become angry or offended. I will however try to explain my definition and why one label fits me and others do not apply.

intothewoods said:

I thought T/b was basically just sexual.

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Nope. Myself for example. Sometimes I need pain, just for pain's sake. A top can provide that pain for me, without any sexual activity at all. When I'm that way I want the pain but I don't want any sexual activity.

intothewoods said:

I thought T/b was basically just sexual.

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For me, with my play partner (who is a Top) I call myself a "spanking bottom" which happens to be a non-sexual relationship between us. I don't submit to him but he does dominate me to a degree, with his floggings and spankings. (this might not make sense to other people but it makes sense to me, and that's important)

Of course a T/b can be sexual, or not non-sexual, perhaps without any D/s power involved.

Oh the always interesting, Homburg...

Homburg said:

Sub, here, is shorthand for submissive.
Sub, elsewhere, is shorthand for submarine, or a prefix to mean lower or beneath.

Context is very important. Here, context tells us that sub = submissive. People that get uptight are just that, uptight. The whole uptight thing is why folks use the PYL/pyl thing. Frankly, I think it is a ludicrous term, but it fails to offend, so it gets used.

I don't care if someone calls my gal a sub, submissive, bottom, or slave. I care if they use the word "my" before any of those.

I don't care if anyone refers to me as a dom, dominant, top, or master. I care if they put "my" in front of it. Though in the case of the last word, I will be unhappy if someone uses it as a term of address simply because it implies a specific relationship. Am I going to get insulted? No, but I will correct that person. Gee, I'm not uptight. Hell, I'm not even uptight enough to capitalise those words in this context.

And good terms for the person what does the tying with rope would include rope top and rigger, among others. Those are the ones I use at least.

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Very cool Hom, thx for the info in the last part...
Ha! A girl can always count on you to "show her the ropes"... Ha! (I am such a dork)

*giggle*

unfoundiamond said:

Very cool Hom, thx for the info in the last part...
Ha! A girl can always count on you to "show her the ropes"... Ha! (I am such a dork)

*giggle*

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Awful pun =)

I spent time last night showing some rope, as it were. Should be posting pics relatively soon. Have to do some editing to obscure faces as before.

And last night was a perfect example of non-sexual Topping. I tied two women and topped one (for quite a long, involved scene) and no sex was involved. And even though the bottom came a number of times, her naughty bits stayed untouched the whole time. Wel, okay, my knife did wander near her nipples here and there. No sex though!

ud,

Ive read this thread and though I rarely post outside my comfort zone, I felt compelled to here. As some have said already, it comes down to what makes you feel comfortable and what makes sense to you. All aspects of any power exchange can be, and are, both sexual and non-sexual in nature.

In answer to what seems to be your root question here, it literally comes down to a personal definition of tems. When speaking to others about it, never assume that you know until you know about that persons personal definitions of the terms they are using. I understand that this can be akward at times especially in initial conversations but with time and experience (not a reference to being young, I have a 37 year old friend who is just now embracing the fact that he is naturally a dominant and stepping out of the vanilla world) you will pick up on little verbal clues as well as subtle but pointed questions and phrases to fish out this information. There are people, a very vocal group, I will add, that seem to have decided for everyone that their definitions of terms are the correct ones. The only correct ones are the ones that you can wrap your mind around and be able to process well enough to apply to different situations.

I, myself, have a master in both sexual and nonsexual aspects of my life his wishes are my own. I couldn't care less what terms are used to identify what my role is, if pinned down, generally there are more than a dozen words that I throw out there and all apply. As long as my master is happy, thats all that matters to me. That is not to say that this has always been as I have sought out those of dominant nature for relationships of one kind or another since I figured out what I wanted in a partner. Not all relationships have been all encompassing and while I am still me, the nature of the relationships have sometimes excluded either sexual aspects or non-sexual aspects. That doesnt mean that some lablels didnt apply though because again, I believe that all this/that defined relationships can have either or aspects depending on the wishes of the participants of said relationship.

I wish you successful hunting in your learning process,
OG

Homburg said:

T/b, at least in my experience, and in the context of BDSM, just refers to people involved purely in the physical side of BDSM practice. In other words, spanking, but no D/s power exchange.

You can Top or bottom without it explicitly being sexual. I do it quite a bit.

Click to expand...

Oh, hi, I shouldn't post when I'm this tired. I meant bdsm play, not sex. Lol.

unfoundiamond said:

I hate labels too... (I often refuse them to be put on me, or my relationships too)

But I am sometimes forced to use them when reffering to and speaking about other people... or the "lifestyle"

Which is how this came up.

(And I am not trying to start another T/b thread... but that was part that was somewhat incorrect... so it was touched on, but the real topic here was ment to be if sub is or is not ment to be an abbreviation for submissive)

In a conversation with someone else I was told it isn't... it is its own term or title... with a diffrent meaning or implications than submissive...

I just need to be able to understand others, and maybe that means having people give me their definition is the only way to do that...

Because occasionally I will be refferring to someone else, or reading in the forum, and I want to make sure what I understand what the words mean... .

That's all..

Click to expand...

I see "a sub" or "a submissive" as analagous. IE: I have no idea what the person who said a sub and a submissive are different things. If they meant "a submissive" and "submissive" are different, I might agree.

Submissive as an adjective is whatever you mean in a Websters or sociological or regular day to day sense and maybe how that applies to their relationships or maybe not. I think a person can be submissive in a BDSM sense with OR without being remotely so in a social sense, same with Dominant.

But "a submissive' which really automatically launches the discussion in a BDSM/D/s context and "a sub" are basically the same thing, and it sounds like someone else playing "impress the new person with my esoteric knowledge I made up last week."

catalina_francisco said:

Didn't mean to offend over it, just alerting a newbie who expressed a desire to learn, that some people take offence over such things. Personally it doesn't bother me, but for those who might be more social in their interactions, it never hurts to be aware because as can be seen on this board alone, it doesn't take much to upset some.

Catalina

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I wasnt directing my statement at you... but I have, in the past been instructed about the difference between sub and submissive. At first, I thought I'd stepped on some toes, on some unwritten rule that as a newb I wasnt aware of.. I figuratively backed up with my hands in the air in apology at offending someone.. but now, after being Master's sub, pet, slut.. whatever he feels like calling me... for a year.. I've learned that the only way to stop worrying about offending someone is to always speak for myself... which is what I did. It's still a sore spot for me.. obviously but I wasnt upset with any of the posters in this thread...

intothewoods said:

Oh, hi, I shouldn't post when I'm this tired. I meant bdsm play, not sex. Lol.

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You had me wondering, itw