Your feedback is appreciated...

Greetings,

I am a male in my early 40ties and I write the kind of stories I would like to read. My work draws on a lot of different experiences (including my 20+ game master career as well as a lot of time wasted in front of video games) and generally presents dark fantasy settings (sword, occult and low magic) with attention to realism. I am especially fond of descriptions, in particular trying to write specifically what I see and imagine in best possible detail. English is my second language though I have been using it for 20+ years in principal capacity.

For some time now I have been writing a series of short stories connected by characters and events. Something that one day could become a novel (though much would need to be done for that to happen). I have had some feedback on the work from friends, but there is only so much you can share with friends. So I decided to publish some of it here all while looking for further feedback.

Here is the link to one of the chapters, recently published here on Literotica.

https://www.literotica.com/s/ascension-4

While this version does not feature sex, it does contain violence, nudity and other mature content. Your feedback is much appreciated and since I am a male writing a female character I would particularly welcome a feedback from women. I am also looking for an early reader and an editor.

Kind Regards
EH

EbonHawk said:

Greetings,

I am a male in my early 40ties and I write the kind of stories I would like to read. My work draws on a lot of different experiences (including my 20+ game master career as well as a lot of time wasted in front of video games) and generally presents dark fantasy settings (sword, occult and low magic) with attention to realism. I am especially fond of descriptions, in particular trying to write specifically what I see and imagine in best possible detail. English is my second language though I have been using it for 20+ years in principal capacity.

For some time now I have been writing a series of short stories connected by characters and events. Something that one day could become a novel (though much would need to be done for that to happen). I have had some feedback on the work from friends, but there is only so much you can share with friends. So I decided to publish some of it here all while looking for further feedback.

Here is the link to one of the chapters, recently published here on Literotica.

https://www.literotica.com/s/ascension-4

While this version does not feature sex, it does contain violence, nudity and other mature content. Your feedback is much appreciated and since I am a male writing a female character I would particularly welcome a feedback from women. I am also looking for an early reader and an editor.

Kind Regards
EH

Click to expand...

Second paragraph : Need to change the words, "she has have".

Or perhaps the woman speaks English as a second language for later she says, "What did you had in mind...?"

But then there is, "He turned away, knowing well what was to come. A small part of him wished for other way to deal with it all." That should either read as "other ways" or "another way". Not really sure what you meant.

I did read the rest of it but didn't really want to. Perhaps this is because that particular genre isn't of much interest to me. But I also felt that it was written in a very formal and matter of fact fashion. Perhaps that is how you intended it to be written, but it had about as much interest to me as an instruction manual for some newfangled tool or something.

You did spend a lot of time describing details but for me, there seemed to be far too many. My mind got lost in the details and I didn't see much of a plot. Perhaps this is because I am a female but I prefer to get some sort of feelings from or about the characters. I want to either love or hate them or find that they are stupid or funny or...whatever. I want to feel their emotions.

I don't want to be too harsh since this is a genre that I wouldn't normally read. Hope that helped!

Fair enough, though it should be noted that this is a small part. One of many. In a way you are reading a fragment that would see characters already defined. Still that is my fault not yours. Thank you for your comments.

You have noted that this genre does not hold your interest. May I ask what does? For no other reason that to know the point of view from which your comments are arriving?

EbonHawk said:

Fair enough, though it should be noted that this is a small part. One of many. In a way you are reading a fragment that would see characters already defined. Still that is my fault not yours. Thank you for your comments.

You have noted that this genre does not hold your interest. May I ask what does? For no other reason that to know the point of view from which your comments are arriving?

Click to expand...

I mainly write comedy, erotica and poetry. Sometimes a combination of these things. So these are the things I prefer. Once in a while, I like to read a mystery.

I read it with a mind to critiquing the female pop, s you requested, but as Jada said, there is so little emotional content that it is hard to get a feel for it. Does she think or feel like a woman? Hard to say, because we get so little of what she thinks and feels. We need to know who your characters are, not just what they do.

You are in love with your ellipses, my friend. They are way overused, as are commas. It would read much smoother if you rephrased sentences to eliminate about half the commas.

In my writing, I only use ellipses in dialogue, never in exposition.

Interestingly enough this is most likely a carry over from my original language where those things you mentioned (content aside of course) are not a problem

That being said, I am wondering if you could offer a link/suggestions to a work of fiction that meets the discussed emotional requirements. I would be keen at examining the feedback in comparison to an example that you think fulfils emotional elements of a female protagonist.

Of course I appreciate your comments, but without a point of reference it is akin of trying to see a value of colour while having been raised in black and white environment.

Hollywood said that in order to facilitate more opportunities for women one could simply shift the gender of any one particular character. Clearly by your comments that is not enough as any such character would need elements added/removed from its design.

EbonHawk said:

Interestingly enough this is most likely a carry over from my original language where those things you mentioned (content aside of course) are not a problem

Click to expand...

Understood, but to a native English speaker, a sentence like this:

"Keeping her whole, naked body, submerged Juno swam the length of the private, luxurious pond breaking the surface on the other end."

Click to expand...

Reads like:

"Keeping her whole (pause) naked body (pause) submerged Juno swam the length of the private(pause) luxurious pond breaking the surface on the other end."

Isn't this better?

"Keeping her naked body wholly submerged, Juno swam the length of the luxurious private pool before breaking the surface on the other end."

As for the ellipses, you end almost every bit of dialogue with them. When I see dialogue end in an ellipse, I read it as if the speaker has trailed off, or that there is a pause after they've spoken.

"I understand you placed the mark on the head of your predecessor..." it was a statement more than a question.

Click to expand...

Well, no, it wasn't. A statement ends in a period or an exclamation mark.

This is an example of where they work (but don't leave spaces between the ellipses and the following words):

"I... m'Lord... I only asked that... whore... to persuade him politely into retirement and not to butcher him like a pig in the depth of the night."

Click to expand...

I hope you find these notes helpful and accept them in the spirit in which they are offered.

EbonHawk said:

That being said, I am wondering if you could offer a link/suggestions to a work of fiction that meets the discussed emotional requirements. I would be keen at examining the feedback in comparison to an example that you think fulfils emotional elements of a female protagonist.

Of course I appreciate your comments, but without a point of reference it is akin of trying to see a value of colour while having been raised in black and white environment.

Hollywood said that in order to facilitate more opportunities for women one could simply shift the gender of any one particular character. Clearly by your comments that is not enough as any such character would need elements added/removed from its design.

Click to expand...

Fair enough, I'll offer up one of mine. It's done well, it has a rating of 4.79 so I guess I can say it was successful.

My Fall and Rise, Chapter 11: Sugarpie, Honeybunch

Once again, thank you for the feedback and the spirit in which it was given. I am not offended if that is what you are worrying about. I understand that writing is subjective and (to quote an episode of Star Trek) context is for kings. I also acknowledge that my grammar and sentence structure is lacking (a reason why I am looking for an editor).

I have posted my writing to get the better feel for it from people who do not know me and do not have an established context for where the writer, the character and the story are coming from.

That being said I think that if there is one important lesson here, at least for me, is the fact that I seem to be writing from a point of view of game master and not a point of view of a novel writer. In particular, I am presenting you with a character per say and expecting you to earn the right to know more about her, be that through interaction, persistent investment or fictional game mechanics (that are not applicable in this case) rather than actually treating you are a member of the so called inner circle and or an informed/entitled to know reader.

EbonHawk said:

That being said I think that if there is one important lesson here, at least for me, is the fact that I seem to be writing from a point of view of game master and not a point of view of a novel writer. In particular, I am presenting you with a character per say and expecting you to earn the right to know more about her, be that through interaction, persistent investment or fictional game mechanics (that are not applicable in this case) rather than actually treating you are a member of the so called inner circle and or an informed/entitled to know reader.

Click to expand...

Sounds more like role play scenario building than story telling. For story telling it's up to you the writer to disclose your characters to the reader, the interaction is only one way.

Fair enough...

However, in the interest of exploring the subject, while I appreciate the feedback, one could argue there is no such thing as "the right way to write". Clearly there are things that work and things that do not work at least where some readers are concerned (putting the genre aside).

Is there such thing as a requirement to disclose everything about the character up front? Sure, some people may prefer it that way so that they can make up their mind straight away, but isn't it a point of the story to grown with the character and to learn things about the character through say actions, not words? And for actions to take place a particular event needs to be setup, described and introduced?

Then again? Am I missing the point by discussing it on a site that is primary dedicated to mature, erotic stories (not that there is anything wrong with that as the story I am writing would fall into that category).

I don't normally write in correct English in the forums (I don't think in words and it is a major effort to make them, and even more effort to make them correct) but I am making the effort here because there seems to be a lot of miscommunication here.
People are giving you advice on how to write stories using English formations that will not distract the reader from the story. You are responding with excuses (not reasons) for ignoring that advice because you are accustomed to world-building and creating a scenario without considering the characters as people.
In building a story in romance or erotica, or, in fact, most genres (there are exceptions - science fiction can be one) the characters are MORE important than the world-building and equal to setting the scenario.
As for the ellipses and excessive commas, there are no languages that use them the way you do. That is an artifact of not knowing the proper usage, nothing more. You have said you have been using English as your primary language for twenty years. It does not show.

I would take the advice you are being given more seriously and stop being defensive.

...
DAMN that was work to said! (an wasn't a quick reply like the button promised!)

FaeLissa said:

I don't normally write in correct English in the forums (I don't think in words and it is a major effort to make them, and even more effort to make them correct) but I am making the effort here because there seems to be a lot of miscommunication here.
People are giving you advice on how to write stories using English formations that will not distract the reader from the story. You are responding with excuses (not reasons) for ignoring that advice because you are accustomed to world-building and creating a scenario without considering the characters as people.
In building a story in romance or erotica, or, in fact, most genres (there are exceptions - science fiction can be one) the characters are MORE important than the world-building and equal to setting the scenario.
As for the ellipses and excessive commas, there are no languages that use them the way you do. That is an artifact of not knowing the proper usage, nothing more. You have said you have been using English as your primary language for twenty years. It does not show.

I would take the advice you are being given more seriously and stop being defensive.

Click to expand...

I find it rather disappointing to see you arrive at this conclusion without so much as exchange of opinions with me. To set the record straight, I am asking for advice and offering counter position, while providing reason for doing so. I am acknowledging feedback but asking for context or comments related to experience, preferences and perceptions, I am certainly not ignoring any of it, especially in light of me acknowledging my short comings.

That being said, thank you for demonstrating why is it impossible to have a conversation on a matter of interest without someone jumping in and turning it into an equivalent of lecturing or self supporting monologue. You must be fun to talk to at writers' meetups.

Please allow me to recommend a review of netiquette and to recommend gaining some understand that a forum, as originally invented by Ancient Greeks was a place to exchange ideas and not necessary to lecture others.

As for your supposed knowledge of languages, might I recommend some Slavic ones for your review. I am sure you will find a difference in the use of commas surprising.

I would like to thank you all for providing your feedback. It has given me something to work with. Thank you for your time.

EbonHawk said:

Is there such thing as a requirement to disclose everything about the character up front? Sure, some people may prefer it that way so that they can make up their mind straight away, but isn't it a point of the story to grown with the character and to learn things about the character through say actions, not words? And for actions to take place a particular event needs to be setup, described and introduced.

Click to expand...

Absolutely not, there is no "requirement" to spell out your character up front. Indeed, it's far better (I think) to trickle your character out through their actions, as you say. But you need to make them believable through those actions, not some kind of blank cipher. That's where story telling is different to a game scenario (where a player has to discover character elements by playing the game), or role play(where two or more participants make up characters as they go along).

With story telling, there's no reader interaction to discover or create a character. The character must form in the writer's mind, and can be disclosed however the writer chooses. It's a one way feed - writer to reader.

If actions take place, yes, you have to be describe the scene. The reader is not an active participant in how the scene unravels - you need to paint them the picture for their imagination to take hold.

Kay. Was referring to what was already said, didn't require talking direct. Sos you did the same at me as did at others what offered help. Is done - you can't be helped till you is did being defensive. Bye.

I would like to weigh in on a few points.

1) Hollywood is right. There is no inherently-womanlike process that one needs to capture in order to vary the cast of your story. You wrote a female protagonist, and that is admirable.

2) Melissa's offered story will not help you write women. A first person narrative is an entirely different beast than a third person narrative. Also, the inner monologue of a 21st century woman would be a bad model if you were attempting to write the inner monologue of a fantasy character. Our mindset is rooted in 21st century morals and we grapple with 21st century problems.

3) FaeLissa is trolling you. I didn't read your responses as disrespectful or combative. It's one thing to defend a stylistic choice, and it's an entirely different thing to "be defensive".

4) There are a lot of grammar mistakes and incorrect homonyms. They seem like the kinds of things that, if you were to say it out loud with an accent, most native English speakers wouldn't recognize as mistakes because it 'sounds' right and we tend to give each other the benefit of the doubt when the meaning is understood.. When written down, however, they stand out. I would love to go through the raw document with a red pen.

5) You have correctly surmised that there are different needs when writing a story than there are in telling a story (D&D), watching a story (movies), and playing a story (video games). The biggest opportunity for you is to embrace the rule of "Show, Don't Tell". What that means, in practice, is this;

Let's say we have Character X. In the narrative, we state that Character X is menacing. However, during the scenes where Character X is present, he does nothing scary. No one expresses fear around him, or gives him a wide berth. There is no record of body language being expressed by characters like leaning away from Character X, or never letting him out of their sight.

Show, Don't Tell is a rule that is part of a larger principle I like to call Literanarrative Agreement (or in this case, Literanarrative Disagreement). When the story purposefully feeds us information that it does not back up in any other way (or outright contradicts), that is bad. Most of the time, the root of that is either laziness or inexperience.

Let's suppose for a moment that we are writing a character with a deformity. It's unnerving to look at this character. That kind of flaw could and should influence EVERY SINGLE INTERACTION with EVERY OTHER CHARACTER because that's how humans are. We react instinctively to the different. While it might be exhausting to write a story where your protagonist is constantly noticing people treating them different AND writing people treating them different, that is SHOWING us the deformity.

If you tell us once, at the beginning of the story, that the character is hideously deformed but then write your story like your protagonist is completely normal, that is TELLING us that there is a deformity.

Obviously, over the course of a long story, there will be times where the plot requires that important information needs to be transmitted to your protagonist, and simply TELLING us this information is acceptable. There are always exceptions to rules.

An example from your story would be the appearance of your character. The narrative includes several judgement-based assessments of her looks, subjectively referring to her as hot or good-looking rather than objectively describing her various features. That in-and-of itself is not great, but THEN none of your other characters really reinforce this. Sure, the one noble stares at her before she kills him, but there's really nothing else in the story that backs that up.

"But Doc," you say, "She's in the water the whole time."

Only because you put her there.

"But Doc," you say, "this is just a fragment! A teaser!"

There was room for the primary male character to offer her compliments about her appearance if her appearance (in this case, her beauty) is important in the scene (and it is).

"But Doc," you say, "he's cold blooded and objective and would never say that!"

He's only like that because you wrote him that way. Additionally, if you need a character that is dispassionate and cold, perhaps you could have started your story where the protagonist is in the arms of someone else who will reinforce her looks for the sake of the reader.

Or write the scene in a way where her looks are simply not an important factor. By crafting the scene as you did but then surrounding her with characters who cannot or will not give the reader the information they need, you were forced to TELL us what she looks like, and it shows.

6) For now, throw out the idea that there is no correct way to write. There are basics you can master. There are good rules you can adhere to (like Chekhov's Gun and Show Don't Tell) that will help you understand how information affects pacing, or what pacing really means.

Later, when you have a grasp on these basics, you can go back to "no correct way to write". Musicians will tell you that they had to practice playing scales first, and the principle here is the same.

EbonHawk said:

I find it rather disappointing to see you arrive at this conclusion without so much as exchange of opinions with me. To set the record straight, I am asking for advice and offering counter position, while providing reason for doing so. I am acknowledging feedback but asking for context or comments related to experience, preferences and perceptions, I am certainly not ignoring any of it, especially in light of me acknowledging my short comings.

Click to expand...

You asked for advice and counter example, but you are not really responding when it is given, so some of the responsibility for your dissatisfaction at the conversation is yours. You asked for an example of a story that includes the emotional content yours lack, and I provided you with one of mine. I was hoping you would read it and offer some thoughts about the contrast between them. If you would, that could be fertile ground for a discussion that we might both find helpful.

AwkwardMD said:

I would like to weigh in on a few points...

Click to expand...

Thank you, this makes a lot of sense and is a good summary that I can certainly take on-board and work with. I sincerely appreciate it especially that it is detailed with plenty of examples and comments. I can imagine it took a lot of time to write and you were under no obligation to do so. In light of all that, perhaps I was bit rush with posting the fragment I did directly to the site rather than sharing it first in writers forum. You are right that this is just a fragment/example per say, but I was the one who chose to publish it and as a result submit myself to the above observations.

MelissaBaby said:

You asked for advice and counter example, but you are not really responding when it is given, so some of the responsibility for your dissatisfaction at the conversation is yours. You asked for an example of a story that includes the emotional content yours lack, and I provided you with one of mine. I was hoping you would read it and offer some thoughts about the contrast between them. If you would, that could be fertile ground for a discussion that we might both find helpful.

Click to expand...

I think you misunderstood my position, perhaps because we are communicating via text forum. I understand my shortcoming well, I have discussed them on the first night after reading some of the feedback with similarly minded person on my end. I don't have a smart come back to any of responses or criticism. I may disagree with small parts of it but that is purely me pursuing my own artistic license perhaps even at the cost of appropriate writing style.

I have read your story, but as noted above by AwkwardMD the format (1st person) and the mindset (modern woman) are different and it is taking me time to reconcile those and draw any applicable/useful (to myself) conclusions. I am a slow thinker who tends to consider things for extended period of time before offering a response so please do not see my lack of response as a disinterest in engagement. I am simply not ready to respond to some of your points, nor have I had a time to process them appropriately, which should not be seen as me not being thankful for them.

As noted before I appreciate all the feedback and help, though I remain unsure what would be an appropriate engagement method where further discussions are concerned. In particular are we interested in discussing the writing, the genre, the methods? Are we turning this conversation into a specialised writer's workshop or should we just leave it at the feedback provided?

Kind Regards
EH

In general, the responses generated by this forum are focused on improvement of the technical aspects of writing and storytelling. Some will go further and leave subjective comments on stories (I loved it! Great characters!), but the bulk of it will be critical suggestions. That is the purpose of this forum.

EbonHawk said:

I have read your story, but as noted above by AwkwardMD the format (1st person) and the mindset (modern woman) are different and it is taking me time to reconcile those and draw any applicable/useful (to myself) conclusions. I am a slow thinker who tends to consider things for extended period of time before offering a response so please do not see my lack of response as a disinterest in engagement. I am simply not ready to respond to some of your points, nor have I had a time to process them appropriately, which should not be seen as me not being thankful for them.

Click to expand...

"That being said, I am wondering if you could offer a link/suggestions to a work of fiction that meets the discussed emotional requirements. I would be keen at examining the feedback in comparison to an example that you think fulfils emotional elements of a female protagonist."

That is what you asked for, and that's what I provided. I'm sorry it wasn't helpful.

Sorry for my posts. Was not taken the way was intended. Apologies to EbonHawk. Also sorry for getting mad.

EbonHawk said:

I understand my shortcoming well, I have discussed them on the first night after reading some of the feedback with similarly minded person on my end.

I don't have a smart come back to any of responses or criticism.

I may disagree with small parts of it

Click to expand...

I am not going to give you any advice on your work. That’s because, having only had three stories published, I dont think I have the experience to do so. But I still believe I can make a valid comment.

I also asked for constructive criticism on my first story. Naturally I thought it was marvellous and that any criticism would be minor. Instead I got ripped apart. But in a helpful way. I took all the advice into account and my second story was an improvement and my third story even more so.

Moving on to your saying that you discussed the comments with “similarly minded person.” I don’t have any friends who know about my writing so no one with whom to discuss. But surely “similarly minded person” would only reinforce your own opinion? You need to discuss the comments with someone who is not biased in your favour or against it.

I am, with all due modesty, perfectly capable of responding with a smart comeback. But wouldn’t do so. I also wouldn’t say anything that could be construed as an excuse. But I would give a response.

All the advice you have received is, as in my case, genuine. Please respect the time that these writers have spent in reading your work, considering it, and giving you a response.

Don't let your agreement with my earlier critique affect the way you interpret the following:

I did not think you did a bad job of writing a woman. I also think that the sample size is too small to tell if you did it well.

That is my purely subjective assessment, and my opinion should only count as much as one person's opinion ever should (basically none).