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Where do you draw the line on plagiarism?

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SpratGilfis

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Joined
May 18, 2013
Posts
15
What was for me the best and most effective erotic story I have ever read was published nearly 20 years ago. Sadly it does not appear on Literotica although three other excellent stories by the same author do. The story is well written and there is nothing about it that would go against Literotica guidelines.
It seems impossible to contact the author as his email address is no longer current and he does not reply to the Literotica Feedback facility. He has not published in Literotica or modified his profile since 2001. He probably either no longer wants to be associated with erotica or he is now incapacitated or dead.
I assume Literotica would not republish a story without the original author's permission.
I could, but definitely wouldn't, simply copy the story and publish the story as my own. I might even get away with it.
I am currently writing a new story closely copying the storylines of the old story but with different characters in a very different setting in almost entirely my own words and writing style and with some slightly different twists. I doubt whether anyone would recognise it except perhaps the original author or someone else who knows the original story intimately.
I guess I have a number of alternatives:
a. Drop the idea;
b. Proceed without any acknowledgement;
c. Proceed and add a footnote acknowledging the storylines are not original but without naming the author or his story;
d. Proceed and add a footnote acknowledging the storylines are not original and naming the author and his story.
One could argue that almost all new stories on Literotica follow the same basic storylines of old ones.
 
I have a story here that was inspired by a Victorian retelling of a Native American tale. I added an end note that recognized the original story.
 
It is an amusing coincidence that trillian_astra21 started her thread on the same subject while I was in the act of typing mine!
 
SpratGilfis said:
I am currently writing a new story closely copying the storylines of the old story but with different characters in a very different setting in almost entirely my own words and writing style and with some slightly different twists. I doubt whether anyone would recognise it except perhaps the original author or someone else who knows the original story intimately.
I guess I have a number of alternatives:
a. Drop the idea;
b. Proceed without any acknowledgement;
c. Proceed and add a footnote acknowledging the storylines are not original but without naming the author or his story;
d. Proceed and add a footnote acknowledging the storylines are not original and naming the author and his story.
One could argue that almost all new stories on Literotica follow the same basic storylines of old ones.
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Using a previously used storyline as you describe isn't plagiarism. Using the previous author's words either verbatim or in demonstrably similar chunks, is.

Plagiarism is using somebody else's words. If you have different characters in different settings doing different things, written in your own style using your own words, that's your story.
 
In the first instance, I would confirm that the story wasn't withdrawn to be published. Some have, e.g. Monocle's excellent tales, Tang88's demonic world swapper.
They may not be here any more, but they may have those stories as novels available elsewhere.

Then I would follow what I said on the other thread:
Tropes? Yeah. That's why they're tropes.
The actual structure of the work including actions and names? Nopey nope nope.
 
redzinger said:
In the first instance, I would confirm that the story wasn't withdrawn to be published. Some have, e.g. Monocle's excellent tales, Tang88's demonic world swapper.
They may not be here any more, but they may have those stories as novels available elsewhere.
/QUOTE]

The original story is still available on the site where it was first published as a whole. The story includes in its heading "You may post freely to non-commercial "free" sites, or in the "free" area of commercial sites." I think I can assume it has not been deliberately withdrawn.
Click to expand...
 
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As others have said, taking the words in large chunks verbatim is the definition of plagiarism.

Taking the basic plot of the story but telling it your way in your words is called writing.

I can't quote the source but I remember my English lit teacher going off on several long rants about how much of William Shakespeare's works were just rehashes of older works, legends and Greek and Roman plays. Didn't seem to hurt him any.

Most of them follow the same plot line anyway, boy meets girl, boy bangs girl. Except for the ones where boy meets girls, boy bangs girls and does other fun stuff when he can't get it up anymore.

james
 
All literature follows three or six or eleven or twentyseven or fortyone basic plot lines, depending on which academic writes the lists. Shadowing an existing trope is not plagiarism. Editing a story to change only names but nothing else IS plagiarism... unless obvious parody, like swapping current political figures into Dracula or 50 Shades. That can be fun.
 
There are two different issues: copyright infringement and plagiarism. They're different.

Plagiarism is using the words or ideas of another without attribution. It usually arises in an academic context. It's an ethical rather than legal matter.

Copyright infringement is the unauthorized use or reproduction of the creative expression of another's work. Copyright infringement exists even if you give credit, if you haven't obtained authorization. The key concept in copyright law is that copyright protects expression, but not ideas. But expression isn't limited to words and names: characters and plots can be creative expression. If you were to re-write Star Wars with the same plot but with completely different dialogue and different character names, it still would be copyright infringement.

Unlike plagiarism, copyright infringement is against the law and may be the subject of civil liability. It's very unlikely you'll face liability on a site like this. I think most authors, however, regard respect for another's copyright as a matter of ethics and integrity, as well.

There's nothing wrong with taking the basic idea of someone's story and making your own story based on that idea. You don't have to give attribution, and you don't need to seek permission.

After Jaws came out in 1975, the 1970s were full of killer animal movies. They had many of the same ideas and tropes as Jaws: a mysterious killer animal that is only slowly revealed, corporate and political toadies trying to keep the public from finding out, jump scares, skimpily dressed women in peril, a scientist expert trying to warn everybody, an everyman hero, etc., etc. None of that is protectable or off limits. Authors were free to write screenplays with these ideas without concern.

But it sounds like what you are doing may go well beyond that. If you are reproducing the entire plot, with all of its very specific plot points, it may cross the line. It's hard to respond in the abstract.

My suggestion would be not just to change the names and dialogue but to rewrite the plot sufficiently that you are comfortable that you are only borrowing the ideas of the original story and not any of its original creative expression, including the plot.
 
Hypoxia said:
All literature follows three or six or eleven or twentyseven or fortyone basic plot lines, depending on which academic writes the lists. Shadowing an existing trope is not plagiarism.
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing. I'm a Blake Snynder disciple, so the number is nine for me.


Editing a story to change only names but nothing else IS plagiarism... unless obvious parody, like swapping current political figures into Dracula or 50 Shades. That can be fun.
Click to expand...

I mean... I'd like to write a story called "Tucker Carlson gets kidnapped and anal raped by Strap-on teen beauty queens who've had enough of his creepy shit" but that might alienate my audience that loves fox news, and I don't like Beauty contests.
 
These conversations are unhelpful in the abstract. I'll give a specific example.

Somebody, at some point, wrote the first "mom gets on son's lap and stuff happens" story at Literotica. I don't know who. Maybe the first such story was written and published somewhere other than Literotica. Probably, the first such story was written recently enough that it could, theoretically, be subject to copyright protection. I have no idea.

But it's an idea, not expression. It's not protectable. Subsequent pervy authors, like yours truly, are free to write their own "mom on son's lap" stories without concern. It's only when you borrow specific unique plot incidents, dialogue, narrative, names, character traits, etc. that you have a problem. There's no obligation to get permission from, or give attribution to, the author of the original "mom on lap" story.
 
Maeven_quinn said:
I mean... I'd like to write a story called "Tucker Carlson gets kidnapped and anal raped by Strap-on teen beauty queens who've had enough of his creepy shit" but that might alienate my audience that loves fox news, and I don't like Beauty contests.
Click to expand...

Do keep in mind that this story will only fly here at Literotica if Tucker Carlson ENJOYS this treatment. But I assume that's where you were headed with this.
 
While we're on the subject, I should point out that there is another branch of law that bears on this: trademarks.

Even if you're writing an original plot featuring the Marvel Avengers, and you're making any money at it, you're going to get a very nasty letter from Disney's lawyers (and, believe me, they're the ones to send it). That's because Marvel Studios took the trouble to enter all their characters as trademarks, giving their use legal protection for even longer durations than copyrights.

Several sites, including this, are a little more lenient than others, although you'll always see disclaimers that the stories are "fan fiction." I'm not sure that this would be an adequate defense against trademark infringement, but fan fiction has been around long enough to convince even lawyers that there's no money to be made from suing fan fiction writers, so it's extremely low on their list of priorities and they let it slide.
 
Plagiarism defined

IIRC Plagiarism is taking another persons work and passing it off as my own.

So if I retype Plato's Republic, but acknowledge that it was written by Plato its a copy. Its not a Plagiarised work.

The Republic is safe, but there could be copyright issues on a more recent work.

Similarly if I take a plot and write my own unique story around it, it is not plagiarism, although personally I would acknowledge the genesis.

PARAGRAPH DELETED 3/13/19

Of course I am not a lawyer. So my opinion is worth exactly what you paid to get it.

Lisa Ann
 
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CuteSlaveLisa said:
There is also a "fair use doctrine" that serves to protect people who are not benefitting financially from such work. IMHO anything on Literotica qualifies.
Click to expand...

*Sigh* Fair Use is for libraries and college courses, not erotica. Try it in court and see what happens.
 
CuteSlaveLisa said:
There is also a "fair use doctrine" that serves to protect people who are not benefitting financially from such work. IMHO anything on Literotica qualifies.



Lisa Ann
Click to expand...

I've studied this issue some. This is wrong. Whether or not you make money is just one factor to consider in determining if it's fair use. The fact that you are not making money does NOT automatically make it fair use. Most of the works on this site would not be fair use unless they are parodies of the original works. But a straight-up sex story involving characters from, say, Twilight, would not be a fair use.

Here's the verbatim text of section 107 of the Copyright Code, which states the fair use doctrine in US law:

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.


No one factor is decisive. You have to look at all the factors.
 
"Plagiarize!
Let no one else's work evade your eyes
Remember why the good lord made your eyes
And plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize
(But be certain always to call it 'research')"
--T.Lehrer
 
SimonDoom,

Thanks, I deleted the paragraph referring to Fair Use.

Context as always is important. The attorney who made the statement I paraphrased was answering a specific question proffered by a private grade school. And while his answer was essentially "it's ok if you don't charge money SPECIFICALLY for accessing scanned works (that parents paid tuition was not deemed a factor)" he WAS addressing his opinion to someone engaged in the field of education.

Although, this site can be educational...

Lisa Ann
 
SimonDoom said:
Do keep in mind that this story will only fly here at Literotica if Tucker Carlson ENJOYS this treatment. But I assume that's where you were headed with this.
Click to expand...

Maybe? What would be the best way to make the GOP upset?
 
Plagiarism tempts me. I almost want to grab a famous non-erotic tale, replace names and places, change all the fights to fucks, and see if anyone notices.
 
Hypoxia said:
Plagiarism tempts me. I almost want to grab a famous non-erotic tale, replace names and places, change all the fights to fucks, and see if anyone notices.
Click to expand...
I've got a sex scene in one of my Humor and Satire stories that's pretty much the chasm stanza from Coleridge's Kublai Khan, paraphrased. No-one spotted it, not even the English Lit majors like Naoko Smith. So much for a literary education ;).
 
Something I have wondered about are the really excellent stories that you want to see the next chapter of and realize the author has not been active since say 2009. Part of you might feel called to pick up the tale. But without permission its pretty much a no go but i wish there was some mechanism on Lit to address that other than sending a message that you never know if the original author ever saw or not.
 
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