About Voting

TamLin01 said:

Really? Seriously? We're complaining about 4's? For crying out loud...

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Are you surprised? There are authors who receive dozens of positive remarks on a story and post to whine about the one troll who said something nasty.

What some here really want it a feature to only allow 5 votes and to only accept glowing feedback that tells them they are the greatest author ever.

I am waiting for things like H's/W's and E's to be removed for the same reason some schools are getting rid of honor rolls, cause it makes the other kids feel bad

RejectReality said:

The red Hs need to go away. Now that scores are available everywhere, they're causing more angst than they're worth.

The difference between 4.49 and 4.50 would immediately become irrelevant. Authors wouldn't have to stress over losing their H. Trolls wouldn't have an easy target that can dramatically affect an story's readership.

Fuck the Hs.

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You have some good points, but trolls will always find a reason and way to troll. Personal trolls will hit anything by a certain author regardless of score and category trolls will do the same.

I think the H is in place to give authors a sense of accomplishment if they get them a sort of incentive a form of "payment" on a free site. I think an author losing sleep over a 4.49 to get to 4.50 is an issue for the author not the voters, I mean get over yourself its not that big of a deal.

But if you drop H's because its target practice then abolish the top lists as well. Get rid of the most favorite story list and even the most favorite author list because anything that shows a story or an author has risen above the others around it is a reason to troll that person and their stories.

All I see focused on with scoring is the bad. People with 4.4 scores complaining of trolling, how have you been trolled? A 4 is the equal to a B+ on a report card, is that so terrible?

If the H is causing issues it stems from the authors not the H or the system.

I hate to say it, but JBJ's constant mentioning of everyone here wants a gold star is not far from the truth.

Readers can see the score no matter what, though. If a story is at 4.49, they can see perfectly well that it's right on that line. The H doesn't mean anything on its own. It's more of a road sign.

Don't get me wrong, I like having them as much as the next guy. But it's only a psychological distinction, if that.

Yes, people can see the score. The thing is, that bright red H is much easier to see. It's pure human nature. Look at the shiny!

So, that story that has 4.49 isn't going to get read as much as the one with 4.50.

The trolls know that. It makes the Hs an easy target with tremendous impact that is both psychological and practical. They're fucking with your head and doing genuine damage to your readership.

Up to around 650 votes, it takes only a single 1 to kill the H of a 4.50 story.

Without the H, that 1 changes it to 4.49. Big whoop. Another 1? Still 4.49. Another 1? Finally 4.48.

How much are the readers going to care about those .01 changes without that bright red signpost screaming it at them?

If the troll wants to have the same impact, they're going to have to work harder for it. The more they have to do, the more likely it is they'll slip up and create a traceable pattern that will get all their hard work swept away.

At this point, the Hs have way more negative potential than positive, and they need to go.

Different readers have different levels of strictness when voting. The tougher judges will bring your score down, but they bring everybody else's score down too; if we didn't have them there'd be a huge number of 5.0s on the site with no distinction between "pretty good" and "great".

Bramblethorn said:

Different readers have different levels of strictness when voting. The tougher judges will bring your score down, but they bring everybody else's score down too; if we didn't have them there'd be a huge number of 5.0s on the site with no distinction between "pretty good" and "great".

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See: Lushstories

That's exactly what they have there, and it's because every time authors cry for some way to stop people from bringing their score down, they get exactly what they want.

90 stories on the first 3 pages. Of those that have votes, only 22 aren't perfect fives. Only 12 are less than 4.80. Only 3 are less than 4.50.

Does anyone have a 5 score posted? How many H's to how many stories?

Comparing scores between authors shouldn't be based on votes, but whether it was what you yourself found enjoyable to read. Every reader is looking for something unique in a story, it all depends on what's unique in yours that draws a large following that in turn garners high scores. The first 50 votes will stabilize your score more and it won't fluctuate so much between votes.

RejectReality said:

At this point, the Hs have way more negative potential than positive, and they need to go.

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But I just got one!



Yeah I know the trolls will get me before long, but since it's a well known fact that people with red H's have wilder sex I'll enjoy it while it lasts....

lovecraft68 said:

I never let a score determine if I am going to read a story. If the title and tag line catch my attention I will read it.

....

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I look for stories to read the same way Lovecraft does, Title and tag line are the main things I look for. (Although often I'm looking for those things after I've created a list of stories by way of the Tags Portal.

TamLin01 said:

Really? Seriously? We're complaining about 4's? For crying out loud...

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And I too think anything above a 4 is a good score, even below 4 stories are often great. Heck, a 4 is what, 80%? If Rotten Tomatoes scores a movie at 80 that's fantastic, even 60% is good there - that's just a 3. What's a three say? "Liked it - keep on writing".

That's not to say I don't get excited when a H shows up. But it is arbitrary. And even with my few stories I can see that some categories score higher than others.

StrangeLife said:

But I just got one!

Yeah I know the trolls will get me before long, but since it's a well known fact that people with red H's have wilder sex I'll enjoy it while it lasts....

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Yeah, I just had one too, for a few hours. When my summer loving story first got posted on Friday it shot up to 4.55 for a few hours. Unfortunately that was just looking from my side. Anyone looking at my stories list just got x.xx for score until late in the day, after it dropped to 4.40.

But I know it once soared into greatness for one brief moment, sigh.

There are different types of voters on Lit.

I vote 5 to a story if I really liked it, otherwise I don't. Most writers are here to learn and if my vote helps their confidence, I'll gladly do it.

Exceptions are made when a story is truely a disgrace to the art of writing. I'll feel guilty if I didn't give it a 2/3 *.

Some voters take their jobs more seriously and vote a story critically than others, like in your case.

You, as an anon. Author, SHOULD NOT expect a 5* on your story from every passing voter. You don't have the right to tell the voter how much he/she should vote your story.

Your views regarding your own story will differ from others, no matter what.

It stings to know that someone didn't vote a 5 on my story, but learn to accept it as honest critcism.

Lastly, I'm not including trolls here. They're a different breed.

Judging by your mail, that person didn't sound like a troll, but rather a person with an honest opinion on your work.

To piggy back onto Soulful's last post, it's not like a rural county fair kid's division for finger painting or whatever - Not everyone here gets a ribbon regardless of how good or bad their work is.

Get rid of the H and people won't stress so much over 4s.

Yes, I'm going to keep flogging that horse

To me, this issue isn't about the score itself, it's about the difference in readership between a story with an H and one without one. Anybody who thinks it doesn't matter is kidding themselves. ( or is writing in LW where nothing gets one )

Get rid of them and put that focus back on the title and tagline. Without that chunk of largely meaningless bling, those are the most prominent feature of every listing, followed by author and category.

RejectReality said:

Get rid of the H and people won't stress so much over 4s.

Yes, I'm going to keep flogging that horse

To me, this issue isn't about the score itself, it's about the difference in readership between a story with an H and one without one. Anybody who thinks it doesn't matter is kidding themselves. ( or is writing in LW where nothing gets one )

Get rid of them and put that focus back on the title and tagline. Without that chunk of largely meaningless bling, those are the most prominent feature of every listing, followed by author and category.

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People need motivation to post their story on a free website. That 'H', 'E' and 'W' do just fine.

Not every story can recieve an 'E' or 'W' or both, but 'H' is achievable by any good story.

I don't think that the problem is in the building, but with the occupants itself.

My advice:

Stop whining about not getting a red 'H'. You won't get a nobel prize for it.

Learn to be apathetic to scores on a free website. I just can't understand the emotional melodrama regarding scores.

Your story is as much worth to the reader as the cost taken to read it.

Any good story can earn an H? I think people who write in LW would like to differ with you on that.

Again, it's not all about scores, it's about the drop in readership that happens at that 4.49-4.50 barrier.

That is entirely caused by the H. Without it, the move from 4.50 to 4.49 is no different than the move from 4.51 to 4.50, or 4.49 to 4.48.

And no matter how many times you tell people not to stress over scores, some people ( especially new writers ) can't do that. And that bit of meaningless bling is another chunk of salt rubbed in the wound.

RejectReality said:

Any good story can earn an H? I think people who write in LW would like to differ with you on that.

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That's an exception.

I don't understand why people give a counter argument with LW. That whole category has become an exception in Lit.

Again, it's not all about scores, it's about the drop in readership that happens at that 4.49-4.50 barrier.

That is entirely caused by the H. Without it, the move from 4.50 to 4.49 is no different than the move from 4.51 to 4.50, or 4.49 to 4.48.

And no matter how many times you tell people not to stress over scores, some people ( especially new writers ) can't do that. And that bit of meaningless bling is another chunk of salt rubbed in the wound.

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Sounds right. But you know what?

I've stopped caring about the number of comments, votes or appreciation about anything I submit.

Want critical Feedback? Ask the reviewers or pop up a thread in the Story Feedback section.

My views are pretty apathetical, but unless I'm getting paid for my $.02, I don't want to sweat over that.

And thus, the Bard lives...happily ever after.

Serafina1210 said:

... I've got just enough little haitches to make me not believe they mark "lowest common denominator" stories, but rather exquisitely crafted exemplars of the storyteller's art....

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I'm sure you're right. My lowest common denominator comment was based on periodic excursions into the top lists, looking for stories under 3 or 4 pages for a quick read. For the most part, they were formulaic and predictable - perhaps because they were so short? Today I checked again. The top story in one particular category was actually a story, but at 9 pages it had to be.

Funny thing though, I kept seeing untagged dialogue starting a new paragraph, but then the paragraph would be completed with the other speaker's thoughts? WTF? Don't we separate one person's dialogue from the other person's thoughts with a paragraph break? I suppose it's a nitpicky error, but it does make the story harder to follow. I wouldn't call this an example of exquisitely crafted writing, and yet it's on the top of the list? Hokay. (I admit it was an exquisitely crafted story. I'm glad the voters weren't distracted by a little rule-breaking in the mechanics of the writing.)

RejectReality said:

Get rid of the H and people won't stress so much over 4s.

Yes, I'm going to keep flogging that horse

To me, this issue isn't about the score itself, it's about the difference in readership between a story with an H and one without one. Anybody who thinks it doesn't matter is kidding themselves. ( or is writing in LW where nothing gets one )

Get rid of them and put that focus back on the title and tagline. Without that chunk of largely meaningless bling, those are the most prominent feature of every listing, followed by author and category.

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I'm all about flogging the horse here(on certain topics) but I think in this case I agree with Soulful Bard's post below the one I am quoting from you.

I think the H gives some form of a sense of accomplishment and about the only one a free site. E's are rare and are only given to stories one person here takes a liking to and not every category is one they enjoy so its almost a teacher's pet type of thing.

W's? 18 a year for the themed contests. If Laurel is truly planning on catching up and making the monthlies current again then 36 W's a year for those. So 54 W's a year and how many stories listed in that time? About 3500?

But most any story has a chance to be an H except for LW which all kidding aside is really starting to be a useless pit and drag on the site in general. The trolls are by far the worst there and they will follow an author to other categories they write in. I would love to see what would happen to the site if that category was abolished. Its like the slum of a ritzy neighborhood and not because of the authors, but the trolls.

Votes/comments should be the only incentive, but the readers-who are getting our hard work for free-do not feel obligated to click on a star, that seems to much work for many of them- and of course comments are even more rare.

So the H is something to shoot for. Does it cause stress? To some people yes to some no. Are they bullseyes for trolls, I am not so sure. The top lists sure, but every single H? I don't think so.

As far as do they get more readership? I will take your word for it, so again that adds to the incentive and thrill when someone gets one.

But as I said earlier if they should be gotten rid of because its an unfair advantage in readership then you have to eliminate everything.

Top lists give an advantage in categories. The site wide favorite 250 stories is an advantage. The favorite author list is, the most popular author list for each category is as well.

Hell even stories with a lot of comments have an advantage because they keep popping up in the feedback forum and more people click on them. If all that can show is vote total, people will start looking for stories with the highest vote totals, should we ditch voting as well?

So what you are looking for is to eliminate anything here that sets one story/author apart from the other. You want a 100% level playing field so its fits my analogy of the PC BS that goes on these days. Nothing superior can be rewarded because its not fair to other people?

Some writers are better or at least more popular than others that is the nature of anything and if you take everything here away.

For me? I no longer care about that stuff, but many do and I think you'd lose some people if the only reward they get here is taken away.

Bramblethorn said:

Different readers have different levels of strictness when voting. The tougher judges will bring your score down, but they bring everybody else's score down too; if we didn't have them there'd be a huge number of 5.0s on the site with no distinction between "pretty good" and "great".

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I don't think scores tell you what's good or great anyway. There are too many factors that affect the scores.

patientlee said:

I don't think scores tell you what's good or great anyway. There are too many factors that affect the scores.

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You're right, as is Bramblethorn. But I think we see that more because we are authors. I do think RR has a point that there are a lot of readers who will let the H determine where they read first which is an advantage, but if you get the H does that not mean you earned that advantage?

That thought process is similar to saying that only generic brands can be sold in stores because name brands have an advantage.

SikFuk said:

I'm sure you're right. My lowest common denominator comment was based on periodic excursions into the top lists, looking for stories under 3 or 4 pages for a quick read. For the most part, they were formulaic and predictable - perhaps because they were so short? Today I checked again. The top story in one particular category was actually a story, but at 9 pages it had to be.

Funny thing though, I kept seeing untagged dialogue starting a new paragraph, but then the paragraph would be completed with the other speaker's thoughts? WTF? Don't we separate one person's dialogue from the other person's thoughts with a paragraph break? I suppose it's a nitpicky error, but it does make the story harder to follow. I wouldn't call this an example of exquisitely crafted writing, and yet it's on the top of the list? Hokay. (I admit it was an exquisitely crafted story. I'm glad the voters weren't distracted by a little rule-breaking in the mechanics of the writing.)

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My "exquisitely crafted exemplar" remark was about as seriously intended as your remark that prompted it. Of course I have never written such a story. But I can fantasize, right? This site is all about fantasy, after all.

Yeah, the mechanics of the writing can be pretty bad here. Yesterday I looked at one of the Hall of Fame stories in an unfamiliar category I'm thinking of writing in--you know, to learn how it's done. The way it was done seemed to be to write largely without apostrophes. But the story was terrific! There's a lot of great storytelling around here along with a lot of rule-breaking.

lovecraft68 said:

You're right, as is Bramblethorn. But I think we see that more because we are authors. I do think RR has a point that there are a lot of readers who will let the H determine where they read first which is an advantage, but if you get the H does that not mean you earned that advantage?

That thought process is similar to saying that only generic brands can be sold in stores because name brands have an advantage.

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True. Until I started writing, I chose highly rated stories. Now I know better.

Serafina1210 said:

My "exquisitely crafted exemplar" remark was about as seriously intended as your remark that prompted it. Of course I have never written such a story. But I can fantasize, right? This site is all about fantasy, after all.

Yeah, the mechanics of the writing can be pretty bad here. Yesterday I looked at one of the Hall of Fame stories in an unfamiliar category I'm thinking of writing in--you know, to learn how it's done. The way it was done seemed to be to write largely without apostrophes. But the story was terrific! There's a lot of great storytelling around here along with a lot of rule-breaking.

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No apostrophes, huh? And all this time I thought the key was to blow the judges.

patientlee said:

No apostrophes, huh? And all this time I thought the key was to blow the judges.

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I thought of that, but hubby said there would be no takers.

I read somewhere that maybe 15% of us recognize quality in anything, and when quality is observed it intimidates most of us or tempts theft.

The real measure of a story is its theft. No one steals or repeats lame stories.

Back in 1994 I created something I called the I DONT CARE BEARS. Real assholes. I'll post the original cartoon. I did it at work and forgot about it. Google it and see what you get.