the marks of a slave

Feedback that you're doing well at this, right? I get that.

I think my desire for certainty goes deeper than that. It's pretty obvious when I'm doing the s thing well or not, and we don't have too much trouble determining its relative merits.

The bigger problem is with life itself. I want some certainty that the actions I'm taking in regards to my children's welfare, my career, my interactions with my family and my community are "right." That the mistakes I'm making are not so obvious that anyone with their eyes open would see them.

Isn't that the basis of much of our socialization? Do this, this and this, and you'll get the education, job, moral well-being, friendship and love, etc. that will help you sleep well at night?

In choosing an M/s relationship, I have to acknowledge that what I'm really craving - at least in part - is relief from the limbo of life's uncertainty.

I haven't followed the traditional tracks that our society lays down for success.

I've been thinking a lot lately about that poem by Antonio Machado I quoted early in this thread -

Wanderer, the road is your
footsteps, nothing else;
wanderer, there is no path,
you lay down a path in walking.

In walking, you lay down a path
and when turning around
you see the road you'll
never step on again.
Wanderer, path there is none,
only tracks on the ocean foam.


We gain some confidence in following the paths that others have walked before us. Confidence that we're not straying too far off the mark, and drowning in the ocean of confusion.

Having rejected many of the traditional paths, how much am I looking to my relationship to offer that kind of guidance?

I think I'm wrong to expect to find that kind of certainty there. I think I'm asking too much.

You may already know this, and be able to see it so clearly. But it's time for me to realize the proper size of the M/s dynamic.
 
I also want to acknowledge, as difficult as that conversation was for both of us, it was effective. We both responded to the other in ways that were meaningful and not empty, offering each other the kind of attention and thoughtfulness that we were trying, however painfully, to say we needed.

What that means in practical terms is that he stayed home on Sunday and offered to cook dinner, while I watched the football game with him. It comes down to acknowledging the importance of the small things that the other one values, and spending time together.

And that, it seems to me, is the very best you can hope for in any relationship.
 
Thank you, Homburg. This was very helpful for me to read. :rose:

A question: I think we all agree that a "need" is by definition something that must be addressed. How can I express something that I feel I need, without making him feel like he's being "forced" to give it to me? I guess I'm asking - literally, how can I word it so it doesn't pinch?

Well, I think the more naked unguarded scary thing you actually wanted in the first place - love, attention, help - and being willing to express a need for these things might actually fly better.

It's far more frustrating to be told "you're not pulling your weight" by your submissive than "I need your help." It sounds like you guys figured that out, but that's what leapt out at me.
 
I think my desire for certainty goes deeper than that. It's pretty obvious when I'm doing the s thing well or not, and we don't have too much trouble determining its relative merits.

The bigger problem is with life itself. I want some certainty that the actions I'm taking in regards to my children's welfare, my career, my interactions with my family and my community are "right." That the mistakes I'm making are not so obvious that anyone with their eyes open would see them.

Isn't that the basis of much of our socialization? Do this, this and this, and you'll get the education, job, moral well-being, friendship and love, etc. that will help you sleep well at night?

In choosing an M/s relationship, I have to acknowledge that what I'm really craving - at least in part - is relief from the limbo of life's uncertainty.

I haven't followed the traditional tracks that our society lays down for success.

I've been thinking a lot lately about that poem by Antonio Machado I quoted early in this thread -

Wanderer, the road is your
footsteps, nothing else;
wanderer, there is no path,
you lay down a path in walking.

In walking, you lay down a path
and when turning around
you see the road you'll
never step on again.
Wanderer, path there is none,
only tracks on the ocean foam.


We gain some confidence in following the paths that others have walked before us. Confidence that we're not straying too far off the mark, and drowning in the ocean of confusion.

Having rejected many of the traditional paths, how much am I looking to my relationship to offer that kind of guidance?

I think I'm wrong to expect to find that kind of certainty there. I think I'm asking too much.

You may already know this, and be able to see it so clearly. But it's time for me to realize the proper size of the M/s dynamic.

I think everyone looks to something for order, certainty and purpose in life. If you're someone who questions your purpose in life (and a lot of people do, right? Or do I just hang out with a bunch of pains in the ass?), traditional paths are not going to provide you with much guidance either. Maybe nothing will.

I have been an agnostic for most of my life, but I recently was struck by a weird feeling - faith. It is such a cliche, but maybe it was either insanity or faith, and my brain chose faith to keep me sane.

There is sort of a parallel with religion, isn't there? I have always seen the parallels between D/s or M/s and religion, but maybe I'm nuts. I'm in a weird place at the moment.
 
Well, I think the more naked unguarded scary thing you actually wanted in the first place - love, attention, help - and being willing to express a need for these things might actually fly better.

It's far more frustrating to be told "you're not pulling your weight" by your submissive than "I need your help." It sounds like you guys figured that out, but that's what leapt out at me.

I love that you said "naked unguarded scary thing" about wanting love, attention, and help. :heart: It is exactly how it feels.

I find it very hard to simply ask for help.
 
There is sort of a parallel with religion, isn't there? I have always seen the parallels between D/s or M/s and religion, but maybe I'm nuts. I'm in a weird place at the moment.

I don't think you're nuts, and I'm very curious what you're thinking.

In my own life, I know that the M/s relationship is one expression of my desire to know God.

It's very important for me to recognize today that I can and do use the structures of this relationship to "stand in" for spiritual practice, but they are not one and the same.

I am too prone to be like the religious follower who fixates on his/her own interpretation of the word, twisting it to support whatever action s/he wants to take.

I am too prone to replace the acceptance and yielding that I think is fundamental to spiritual practice with submissive sexual arousal.

I'm hoping that I don't have to surgically remove my sexuality from my spirituality in order not to fall into that kind of confusion. But I'm beginning to see how I lose my bearings by attaching too much importance to "intermediaries." Suddenly I'm in full devotion to something far too fixed and solid, with the hope of penetrating the subtle and mysterious.

There is another way to go.

He thinks I should just enjoy the sex, and do the next right thing.
 
Have you ever been so angry at him about something that you could hardly spit?

How do you deal?

When he's beyond language, or it's been talked to death, but there's still tension, he has an outlet/recourse; beating my ass. That doesn't work the other way around, obviously.

How do you get the anger in you blood out?
 
I don't think you're nuts, and I'm very curious what you're thinking.

In my own life, I know that the M/s relationship is one expression of my desire to know God.

It's very important for me to recognize today that I can and do use the structures of this relationship to "stand in" for spiritual practice, but they are not one and the same.

I am too prone to be like the religious follower who fixates on his/her own interpretation of the word, twisting it to support whatever action s/he wants to take.

I am too prone to replace the acceptance and yielding that I think is fundamental to spiritual practice with submissive sexual arousal.

I'm hoping that I don't have to surgically remove my sexuality from my spirituality in order not to fall into that kind of confusion. But I'm beginning to see how I lose my bearings by attaching too much importance to "intermediaries." Suddenly I'm in full devotion to something far too fixed and solid, with the hope of penetrating the subtle and mysterious.

There is another way to go.

He thinks I should just enjoy the sex, and do the next right thing.

I've always poo-poo'ed (um, how do you spell that?) highly structured and ritualistic D/s relationships as being too much like religion (and often embraced by people who sneer at religion, but that's a whole other subject), but it's entirely possible I find the structure we have comforting for the same reasons. He has recently stepped up how often and to what degree he exerts his authority, and it has really been a source of comfort and solace. I have zero desire to fight against it right now.

I feel like, yep, no contradicting the man, sounds good to me, whereas there used to be more of a verbal tug-of-war. I felt like, you are in charge of me because I agree to it, not because men should be in charge of the universe. And then we'd have this kinda hot sparring over it. Now I feel like, oh, fuck it, he's in charge, my husband rules my home (somewhat quietly, since I don't need my kid repeating shit about male supremacy), etc. I want to stay at home, clean, cook and take care of the family. I'm certain I'm having an emotional reaction to my recent pregnancy loss, but that's where I'm at. I realize I sound like a privileged insufferable cliche, but wtf, that's me, I guess. At least I won't be one of those bitches who says, I'm a mom, not the maid!

The hard part is that I'm feeling all of these emotions, and they bleed over into work, where they have no place. I have never been like this. I strive, and am largely successful, at keeping emotions out of my workplace. I think logically, I make my case logically, and I basically get what I want. Well, anyway, that's a whole other topic, but maybe this whole thing will pass. I just wonder if this is some fundamental shift (has happened before for me with significant hormonal changes) whereby the whole, in charge at the office, submissive in the home/bedroom, thing is over. I don't know. Thanks for letting me vent.
 
I've always poo-poo'ed (um, how do you spell that?) highly structured and ritualistic D/s relationships as being too much like religion (and often embraced by people who sneer at religion, but that's a whole other subject), but it's entirely possible I find the structure we have comforting for the same reasons. He has recently stepped up how often and to what degree he exerts his authority, and it has really been a source of comfort and solace. I have zero desire to fight against it right now.

I feel like, yep, no contradicting the man, sounds good to me, whereas there used to be more of a verbal tug-of-war. I felt like, you are in charge of me because I agree to it, not because men should be in charge of the universe. And then we'd have this kinda hot sparring over it. Now I feel like, oh, fuck it, he's in charge, my husband rules my home (somewhat quietly, since I don't need my kid repeating shit about male supremacy), etc. I want to stay at home, clean, cook and take care of the family. I'm certain I'm having an emotional reaction to my recent pregnancy loss, but that's where I'm at. I realize I sound like a privileged insufferable cliche, but wtf, that's me, I guess. At least I won't be one of those bitches who says, I'm a mom, not the maid!

The hard part is that I'm feeling all of these emotions, and they bleed over into work, where they have no place. I have never been like this. I strive, and am largely successful, at keeping emotions out of my workplace. I think logically, I make my case logically, and I basically get what I want. Well, anyway, that's a whole other topic, but maybe this whole thing will pass. I just wonder if this is some fundamental shift (has happened before for me with significant hormonal changes) whereby the whole, in charge at the office, submissive in the home/bedroom, thing is over. I don't know. Thanks for letting me vent.

I'm sorry to hear about your recent loss. My own experiences of loss have always softened me. And put things into perspective, so that whatever I thought was the driving principle at the time became part of a much, much larger picture.

I have found that it's possible to bring submission into leadership roles at work, and get quite a lot done. The task becomes the dominant factor. And everyone, with your guidance, works to get it done. (It can get interesting when someone is sabotaging the process, because you have to bring them back into the team by honestly acknowledging the reasons why they're unhappy. And "you" might be one of the reasons.)

I also want very much to stay at home, cook, clean, and care for my family. It's really the theme of this chapter in my life. I get nagged by the goals of my youth, thinking I'm not living up to some potential that I once had and I'm now letting slide away. Never mind that I've had lots of chapters in my life before this one in which those goals were the prime movers.

Things change. Priorities change. And loss does shed light on the things we have valued. Thanks for venting. :rose: I appreciate your perspective.
 
Have you ever been so angry at him about something that you could hardly spit?

How do you deal?

When he's beyond language, or it's been talked to death, but there's still tension, he has an outlet/recourse; beating my ass. That doesn't work the other way around, obviously.

How do you get the anger in you blood out?

Yes, I have. And I have done a lot of things to vent the anger - like yelled, cursed, thrown things, hit, gone silent. I've said things that were really mean, intentionally trying to hurt him, going for his weaknesses and vulnerabilities.

I have never, ever been proud of those behaviors. They have always released the tension and made me feel ashamed of myself afterwards.

And he doesn't beat my ass to release anger. I have felt his anger in his hands, but he has always restrained himself in those circumstances. He will usually turn his rage against the house, and occasionally himself.

There's no value, in my opinion, in violence as an outlet for anger. Anger that comes out in physical violence is, in my opinion, too raw and damaging. Having that type of temper myself, I totally understand where it comes from. I know from experience how much it hurts the people to whom it's directed.

I spent a number of years working with my anger - I could go into the details, if you're interested. Most of it had to do with reshaping my expectations, learning how to care for myself, and recognizing that most people are doing the best they can in any given moment.

On a very practical level, today, when I get that angry (and I do), I try to treat it like a storm passing through my mind, recognizing that I'm not going to see anything clearly while I'm that angry, and the first action I need to take is to calm myself. I calm myself by walking or driving or crying or singing or calling someone on the phone. Deep breathing helps. (I was thinking how both smoking and eating allow you to touch the same place that deep breathing does - I wonder if that is why we use those things to stuff our anger?)

A long time ago, I used to take my anger straight to him. I would call him ten times in a row, leaving message after message after he'd stop picking up, because I couldn't bear the feeling I was having and wanted him to change it.

That never worked.

It's up to me to change the way I feel. And it is possible to find people who are willing to help you learn how to do it. (And maybe, though we want our Doms to be able to meet every need, in this case, it shouldn't be your Dom you turn to for help.)
 
I get nagged by the goals of my youth, thinking I'm not living up to some potential that I once had and I'm now letting slide away.

"Potential" can be one of the most dire, cursed weights life can lay on your shoulders.
 
How do you get the anger in you blood out?

In the same boat ... :(

Yes, I have. And I have done a lot of things to vent the anger - like yelled, cursed, thrown things, hit, gone silent. I've said things that were really mean, intentionally trying to hurt him, going for his weaknesses and vulnerabilities.

I have never, ever been proud of those behaviors. They have always released the tension and made me feel ashamed of myself afterwards.

And he doesn't beat my ass to release anger. I have felt his anger in his hands, but he has always restrained himself in those circumstances. He will usually turn his rage against the house, and occasionally himself.

There's no value, in my opinion, in violence as an outlet for anger. Anger that comes out in physical violence is, in my opinion, too raw and damaging. Having that type of temper myself, I totally understand where it comes from. I know from experience how much it hurts the people to whom it's directed.

I spent a number of years working with my anger - I could go into the details, if you're interested. Most of it had to do with reshaping my expectations, learning how to care for myself, and recognizing that most people are doing the best they can in any given moment.

On a very practical level, today, when I get that angry (and I do), I try to treat it like a storm passing through my mind, recognizing that I'm not going to see anything clearly while I'm that angry, and the first action I need to take is to calm myself. I calm myself by walking or driving or crying or singing or calling someone on the phone. Deep breathing helps. (I was thinking how both smoking and eating allow you to touch the same place that deep breathing does - I wonder if that is why we use those things to stuff our anger?)

A long time ago, I used to take my anger straight to him. I would call him ten times in a row, leaving message after message after he'd stop picking up, because I couldn't bear the feeling I was having and wanted him to change it.

That never worked.

It's up to me to change the way I feel. And it is possible to find people who are willing to help you learn how to do it. (And maybe, though we want our Doms to be able to meet every need, in this case, it shouldn't be your Dom you turn to for help.)

Thanks for the reminder on how to deal with anger.

It does not help being easily obsessed with things and having a fervid imagination. More often then not I run this imaginary dialogues and situations in my head, work myself up to a real seething angry monster and when he says something I just blow up and bit his head off.

I need to learn to separate my mind from the real world. :(
 
"Potential" can be one of the most dire, cursed weights life can lay on your shoulders.

Why do you say that?

Though I don't disagree with you on the days when I feel like a mediocrity and a failure, I also think the assessment that I had "potential" when I was a kid encouraged me to take risks that I might not have taken otherwise. Risks that have made my life very interesting.
 
I'm sorry to hear about your recent loss. My own experiences of loss have always softened me. And put things into perspective, so that whatever I thought was the driving principle at the time became part of a much, much larger picture.

I have found that it's possible to bring submission into leadership roles at work, and get quite a lot done. The task becomes the dominant factor. And everyone, with your guidance, works to get it done. (It can get interesting when someone is sabotaging the process, because you have to bring them back into the team by honestly acknowledging the reasons why they're unhappy. And "you" might be one of the reasons.)

I also want very much to stay at home, cook, clean, and care for my family. It's really the theme of this chapter in my life. I get nagged by the goals of my youth, thinking I'm not living up to some potential that I once had and I'm now letting slide away. Never mind that I've had lots of chapters in my life before this one in which those goals were the prime movers.

Things change. Priorities change. And loss does shed light on the things we have valued. Thanks for venting. :rose: I appreciate your perspective.

Thank you. I feel kind of lame writing about it on Lit. I wasn't going to. But you know what, shit happens in life. It helps for me to write about it.

Seriously, I don't know if I can do this at work! I'm going to think about. The only thing that strikes me as submissive about me there is that I sometimes think, oh, I'll just do it myself, and take on too much. The task is the dom. Seriously, I used to preach that, and really try to push the team work ethic. But it hasn't quite caught on at this workplace. I can't make people care. That's the thing. I will think more about this though.
 
Thank you. I feel kind of lame writing about it on Lit. I wasn't going to. But you know what, shit happens in life. It helps for me to write about it.

I feel lame, too, sometimes, laying myself out on the table.

But there aren't that many places to talk about the shit that happens and it's relation to this particular mindset we're cultivating. For instance, I can talk to other moms about my frustrations with my kid's school, and get a certain kind of feedback. I can even question whether or not I've taken the right actions. But I can't relate it to habits I've actively cultivated as a slave without radically changing the topic of discussion.

I'll be curious what you discover at work. How your thoughts evolve.
 
Why do you say that?

Though I don't disagree with you on the days when I feel like a mediocrity and a failure, I also think the assessment that I had "potential" when I was a kid encouraged me to take risks that I might not have taken otherwise. Risks that have made my life very interesting.

I don't think that being told about your supposed potential has anything material to do with risk-taking. Plenty of talentless folks take risks every day. I think being told time and again about your 'potential' can create unrealistic expectations in one's self and those around you. The old saw, "If you're so smart, why ain't you rich?" comes to mind.

In my own case, 'potential' was a millstone around my neck emotionally-speaking. It was not until I realigned my own thinking and expectations (at the precocious age of fifteen) that I was able to start to see my own way with a bit of clarity. Even nowadays, my 'potential' comes up here and there. I'm resentful of it.

I am, by and large, content with my life. I do what I want to do for a living, and live how I want to live. I don't have the same material desires and expectations as many of my peers and am just not motivated by wealth or prestige. Somehow, this translates into wasted potential. To me, I was bright enough to realise what motivated me, and to go for it. My own overall contentment is my measure of success, yet that potential is still there to drag me down when some disapproving observer brings it up.

The net result is that I don't pressure my kids on performance. They are exhorted to work hard, and do good things. I don't tell them that they need to live up to their potential. I don't tell them constantly how smart they are, and that they 'should' be able do/understand whatever it is that is vexing them. Not my thing, as I've seen too many parents do that.
 
Thanks for the reminder on how to deal with anger.

It does not help being easily obsessed with things and having a fervid imagination. More often then not I run this imaginary dialogues and situations in my head, work myself up to a real seething angry monster and when he says something I just blow up and bit his head off.

I need to learn to separate my mind from the real world. :(

Or maybe focus your mind on the most tangible aspects of the world. Like simple physical sensations of texture or heat. Simple social interactions. Simple self-care, eating, resting, drinking enough water.

That's how I ground myself when I find myself caught in a whirlwind of my own making.

(I've been really curious about the "bombs" you mentioned dropping a few posts back. Do think you do it to find out what's important to you, or what's important to other people?)
 
I don't think that being told about your supposed potential has anything material to do with risk-taking. Plenty of talentless folks take risks every day. I think being told time and again about your 'potential' can create unrealistic expectations in one's self and those around you. The old saw, "If you're so smart, why ain't you rich?" comes to mind.

In my own case, 'potential' was a millstone around my neck emotionally-speaking. It was not until I realigned my own thinking and expectations (at the precocious age of fifteen) that I was able to start to see my own way with a bit of clarity. Even nowadays, my 'potential' comes up here and there. I'm resentful of it.

I am, by and large, content with my life. I do what I want to do for a living, and live how I want to live. I don't have the same material desires and expectations as many of my peers and am just not motivated by wealth or prestige. Somehow, this translates into wasted potential. To me, I was bright enough to realise what motivated me, and to go for it. My own overall contentment is my measure of success, yet that potential is still there to drag me down when some disapproving observer brings it up.

The net result is that I don't pressure my kids on performance. They are exhorted to work hard, and do good things. I don't tell them that they need to live up to their potential. I don't tell them constantly how smart they are, and that they 'should' be able do/understand whatever it is that is vexing them. Not my thing, as I've seen too many parents do that.

It's true that "potential" sets up a certain expectation of achievement, which I agree can be used against you. But I also know my own high standards for myself have contributed greatly to the quality of my work and consequently my self-esteem.

I am going to go way out on a limb and wonder aloud whether there could be gender issues reflected in the differences between our attitudes (my husband agrees with you, by the way).

Whereas our culture upholds the myth that a man is what he makes himself, a woman can comfortably point to a number of different factors "outside her control" that kept her from living up to that early potential.
 
I am going to go way out on a limb and wonder aloud whether there could be gender issues reflected in the differences between our attitudes (my husband agrees with you, by the way).

Whereas our culture upholds the myth that a man is what he makes himself, a woman can comfortably point to a number of different factors "outside her control" that kept her from living up to that early potential.

That would sound like an excellent explanation for those differences.
 
It's true that "potential" sets up a certain expectation of achievement, which I agree can be used against you. But I also know my own high standards for myself have contributed greatly to the quality of my work and consequently my self-esteem.

I am going to go way out on a limb and wonder aloud whether there could be gender issues reflected in the differences between our attitudes (my husband agrees with you, by the way).

Whereas our culture upholds the myth that a man is what he makes himself, a woman can comfortably point to a number of different factors "outside her control" that kept her from living up to that early potential.

i don't think this is a male/female thing. i can relate painfully well to the "millstone around the neck" of wasted potential Homburg refers to. from very early childhood onward i was constantly told by peers, teachers, adult relatives, etc. of how exceptionally bright and gifted i was. a "B" on a report card was met with shock and disappointment. the expectations for my future were enormous...it was assumed by everyone that i would be a renowned novelist someday. kids who either ignored or bullied me throughout high school wanted me to sign their yearbooks, because they just knew i would be "big time" someday.

i enjoyed writing...it was a passion and more importantly an escape. but everyone's perceptions of my potential totally killed that for me. it feels like bricks on my shoulders, paralyzing me into inaction. i was always the classic underachiever, and i fear writing to this day.
 
Yes, I have. And I have done a lot of things to vent the anger - like yelled, cursed, thrown things, hit, gone silent. I've said things that were really mean, intentionally trying to hurt him, going for his weaknesses and vulnerabilities.

I have never, ever been proud of those behaviors. They have always released the tension and made me feel ashamed of myself afterwards.

And he doesn't beat my ass to release anger. I have felt his anger in his hands, but he has always restrained himself in those circumstances. He will usually turn his rage against the house, and occasionally himself.

There's no value, in my opinion, in violence as an outlet for anger. Anger that comes out in physical violence is, in my opinion, too raw and damaging. Having that type of temper myself, I totally understand where it comes from. I know from experience how much it hurts the people to whom it's directed.

I spent a number of years working with my anger - I could go into the details, if you're interested. Most of it had to do with reshaping my expectations, learning how to care for myself, and recognizing that most people are doing the best they can in any given moment.

On a very practical level, today, when I get that angry (and I do), I try to treat it like a storm passing through my mind, recognizing that I'm not going to see anything clearly while I'm that angry, and the first action I need to take is to calm myself. I calm myself by walking or driving or crying or singing or calling someone on the phone. Deep breathing helps. (I was thinking how both smoking and eating allow you to touch the same place that deep breathing does - I wonder if that is why we use those things to stuff our anger?)

A long time ago, I used to take my anger straight to him. I would call him ten times in a row, leaving message after message after he'd stop picking up, because I couldn't bear the feeling I was having and wanted him to change it.

That never worked.

It's up to me to change the way I feel. And it is possible to find people who are willing to help you learn how to do it. (And maybe, though we want our Doms to be able to meet every need, in this case, it shouldn't be your Dom you turn to for help.)

Violence: My life would be so much easier if my philosophical views about love, sex and anger lined up with what I actually want from a man. In any case with him, punishment is always controlled, but never dispassionate.

It suddenly struck me that acceptance comes easier when you've decided leaving a situation isn't an option. Once that's settled or the decision is made it frees your inner resources up just enough to consider solutions OTHER than getting the hell out of Dodge.

Thank you for sharing what you do. The storm analogy in particular.
 
Or maybe focus your mind on the most tangible aspects of the world. Like simple physical sensations of texture or heat. Simple social interactions. Simple self-care, eating, resting, drinking enough water.

That's how I ground myself when I find myself caught in a whirlwind of my own making.

(I've been really curious about the "bombs" you mentioned dropping a few posts back. Do think you do it to find out what's important to you, or what's important to other people?)

It is hard to focus my mind on tangible aspect of the world when after walking in from work I'm not given even the space to have a glass of water and go pee before being thrown in the whirlwind of a "crisis" ... :eek:

As for the bomb talk ... I had to go dig it out to refresh my memory.

When I don't have a clear "attraction" or "aversion", my most common course of action is a sort of "study, wait and see". I used to get mighty frustrated with the uncertainty of living in limbo, and that is when it would get dangerous for me, as I would then try the "let's throw a bomb and see what happens" approach, with the end results that I had to spend all my energy to mend the broken pieces of what I actually wanted (a sort of let's destroy everything so I can see what I really miss and as such really cared for ...).

I've learned since to be patient. Sort of. Instead of throwing a real bomb I do "what if" bombs and play out the scenarios and consequences in my head/writing. Much safer that way.

I hate not knowing what will the future bring. I hate not having a path or course of action. I hate not knowing what I mean to somebody. I don't deal well with prolonged gray areas. Patience is my lesson in this life, and a hard one indeed.

So when I'd get totally frustrated with the let's thing run their course, or the let's wait and see if we get more elements for a decision approach, I'd do like a mad scientist and introduce a perturbance in the system, mostly in the form of an explosive destruction of the status quo.

Was it to find out what's important to me or what's important to other people?
Good question. It was probably both. Once you destroy something and you have to piece it together, you inevitably face your priorities and also the priorities of the other people involved.

Conflict is when the most progress is made. Perhaps that was (is) the rational behind my creating a conflict to get out of a stalled situation or to speed up the process ...
 
i don't think this is a male/female thing. i can relate painfully well to the "millstone around the neck" of wasted potential Homburg refers to. from very early childhood onward i was constantly told by peers, teachers, adult relatives, etc. of how exceptionally bright and gifted i was. a "B" on a report card was met with shock and disappointment. the expectations for my future were enormous...it was assumed by everyone that i would be a renowned novelist someday. kids who either ignored or bullied me throughout high school wanted me to sign their yearbooks, because they just knew i would be "big time" someday.

i enjoyed writing...it was a passion and more importantly an escape. but everyone's perceptions of my potential totally killed that for me. it feels like bricks on my shoulders, paralyzing me into inaction. i was always the classic underachiever, and i fear writing to this day.

I have so many thoughts in relation to this post.

1. Hey, no pressure - :) - but I would love to read anything you wrote - and make it a point to do so on this board. I have a fledgling writing group up here in the city and if you're ever interested in participating long distance, please let me know.

2. I think you're right that the experience is not exclusive to one gender. I have struggled my whole life with my failure to live up to my early "potential," don't consider it over yet, and have learned a lot in the process.

I don't think there's any harm in the initial observation that someone is good at something, and has the potential to be very good. I think the problem is in our fixations on wealth and fame.

The message stops being about being a good writer, musician, athlete, thinker, etc. It becomes about being a "star." This area of "potential," properly developed, is going to be a ticket to a new level of being for the whole family. All the unfulfilled potential of the ancestors is now coming to fruition in this child. Add some dysfunction and a lot of suffering is set in motion.

3. I've always been glad that I was given the message that I had "potential." I can't imagine that it would feel better, in this culture of ours, to feel like you don't have "potential."

Maybe that's an argument for giving it up altogether.

We, as a species, are prone to build social hierarchies and rank people vertically on a number of different scales. I spent most of my youth railing against the way class issues were hidden within the assessment of skills and talents.

Being socialized into these hierarchies is incredibly painful. For everyone. But I honestly think they're an integral part of the human experience. The current trend is to find everyone "gifted" on different scales. It will be interesting to see how that plays out.

I know that finding my "right" place in the world has been a very difficult and meaningful experience.

4. Even though both genders could have the same emotional experience, I still think there are different cultural expectations for men and women. For instance, childcare is a huge issue that does, in fact, interrupt a career trajectory. The glass ceiling is another common experience.

5. I was struck by the thought that M/s relationships are great opportunities for under-achieving over-achievers to express themselves. :D
 
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Violence: My life would be so much easier if my philosophical views about love, sex and anger lined up with what I actually want from a man.

In my experience, one source of recurring turbulent feelings is the internal conflict between two opposing cherished ideas. (i.e. your philosophical views and your sexual fantasies)

Untangling these psychological knots is part of the fun. :)
 
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