what's your poetic achilles'-heel?

or, as wiki describes it so well, your ' deadly weakness in spite of overall strength, which can actually or potentially lead to downfall'?

for me, it's not noticing i've repeated certain words till too late. i use reps frequently (even deliberately!) but i am often surprised reading back over the piece i've just posted to see i've done it again where another word would have been better. occasionally they actually work ok, other times it's back to the editing board or, as in the case of live-writes, simply e-slapping myself for not noticing. *sigh*

so c'mon, what're yours? don't leave me dangling here like some uncomfortable participle.

For starters, mixing grammatical tenses throughout the poem. Eg, starting out in the past tense and inexplicably moving into the present tense, visa versa, or any combination such as future, conditional, subjunctive, etc.

This has the potental, butters, of being a very interesting thread, like a workshop of what not to do craft wise. I have some other shortcomings, seriously, but I'll wait to see how things develop before adding more to the mix.

Perhaps my most dangerous spot is my preoccupation with rhyme which in its turn brings repetition.
Given that English is not the greatest language for rhyme, English poetry has grown to its unbelivable glory despite that fact.
Sometimes I feel that I don’t write what I must, but what I lust for, (sometimes only).

I don’t feel that, what greenmountaineer describes above, can necessarily be a deficiency: Writing in past tense and reverting suddenly and without apparent reason to present, to me is a grammatical concept known as "Historical Present" tense and in poetry can be very effective, but I don’t know if it exists as such in English grammar. But I have grown up with Greek grammar as my discipline and I don’t even accept its grammatical restrictions, let alone the English ones.

My deadly weakness is a lack of "overall strength".

Uncomfortable danglings ..... shortcomings ..... what did I stumble into here?

I often fall victim to the notion that when writing something more lyrical in nature, the reader is going to pick up on the rhythm. I invest an inordinate amount of effort incorporating that rhythm into the write without any musical instrumental assist ..... when I should probably just take it for granted the reader is going to invent his or her own through the process of association. Then I fixate on using specific symbology in order to limit the amount of associations that could be conjured up.

It's a control freak thing.

Laziness. I find writing in rhyming forms so easy it more or less seems to come naturally, although I have been doing more free form since my early days here, I do need to stretch myself more.

• Having to conform to a specific meter
  Falling into a sing-song patter when it comes to end rhymes
  Not reworking cliches or commonly used phrases in ways that make them seem fresh

That's three...should be a good start, yeah?

Remec said:

• Having to conform to a specific meter
  Falling into a sing-song patter when it comes to end rhymes
  Not reworking cliches or commonly used phrases in ways that make them seem fresh

That's three...should be a good start, yeah?

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Ditto, Remec, although I think I'm in recovery regarding the 2nd.

Your comment about clichés reminded me of a point 1201 made once. Often clichés aren't "either or." The poet can come dangerously close to inserting one in which case it can still distract the reader, a subtlety perhaps, but noteworthy.

greenmountaineer said:

For starters, mixing grammatical tenses throughout the poem. Eg, starting out in the past tense and inexplicably moving into the present tense, visa versa, or any combination such as future, conditional, subjunctive, etc.

This has the potental, butters, of being a very interesting thread, like a workshop of what not to do craft wise. I have some other shortcomings, seriously, but I'll wait to see how things develop before adding more to the mix.

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i think i see where you're coming from with this, gm: that switch thing is something i've seen you do, and others, and have fallen foul of myself.

it's not the switch i see as the problem (if it's intentional and not some blind spot thing we do) so long as it makes sense - you pin it with the word 'inexplicably'. what might be clear in our mind's eye as we shift back and forth between the memory/history, the now, and looking ahead is only clear because we also understand the context. if we can work half-way with the reader, give them enough clues, they might read it and not become confused. some readers just won't even make the effort.

Tsotha said:

My deadly weakness is a lack of "overall strength".

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*chucks a ripe tomato at tsotha* booooo!
now come back and talk sense

UnderYourSpell said:

Laziness. I find writing in rhyming forms so easy it more or less seems to come naturally, although I have been doing more free form since my early days here, I do need to stretch myself more.

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hi annie.

stretching can be good for the soul, sure, but don't knock what you're good at, just work at improving! and i would lay odds most of us are guilty of the same kind of laziness in our own comfort zones. some people are simply stronger in any given area than others, as the recent amercian sentences thread and various challenges go to show. i admire those who work hard at the polishing and the editing, not giving in till they've honed a piece to perfection. that takes determination and the sort of dedication i find daunting, editing as i write on the fly for the most part.

pelegrino said:

Perhaps my most dangerous spot is my preoccupation with rhyme which in its turn brings repetition.
Given that English is not the greatest language for rhyme, English poetry has grown to its unbelivable glory despite that fact.
Sometimes I feel that I don’t write what I must, but what I lust for, (sometimes only).

I don’t feel that, what greenmountaineer describes above, can necessarily be a deficiency: Writing in past tense and reverting suddenly and without apparent reason to present, to me is a grammatical concept known as "Historical Present" tense and in poetry can be very effective, but I don’t know if it exists as such in English grammar. But I have grown up with Greek grammar as my discipline and I don’t even accept its grammatical restrictions, let alone the English ones.

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perhaps experimenting more with near-rhyme, avoiding e-o-l rhyming and utilising more the tool of sound-linking throughout lines for continuity might help?

it's not unusual to read a piece that feels rhymed but isn't obviously so; re-reading and 'listening', it can quickly become apparent that it's a smattering of certain sounds across lines and even verses that tie a piece together, particularly when used with an ear to softening or strengthening the mood/image/dialogue.

Magnetron said:

Uncomfortable danglings ..... shortcomings ..... what did I stumble into here?

I often fall victim to the notion that when writing something more lyrical in nature, the reader is going to pick up on the rhythm. I invest an inordinate amount of effort incorporating that rhythm into the write without any musical instrumental assist ..... when I should probably just take it for granted the reader is going to invent his or her own through the process of association. Then I fixate on using specific symbology in order to limit the amount of associations that could be conjured up.

It's a control freak thing.

Click to expand...

what did you stumble into here? we call this sort of collectiveness a shortcoming of poets

we can only lead so far, with the natural musicalty of words, line-break application, and metre - there will always be variations on how a piece is read due to regional accents and dialect, and since you're trying to control things with associated symbology/references then you're probably doing your fair share of trying to meet a reader half-way. all we can ever do is hone and hope.

Remec said:

• Having to conform to a specific meter
  Falling into a sing-song patter when it comes to end rhymes
  Not reworking cliches or commonly used phrases in ways that make them seem fresh

That's three...should be a good start, yeah?

Click to expand...

anything that starts with 'having to...' puts up barriers right from the off

can't say i've ever noticed your writes becoming sing-songy *ponders* guess you must work to eradicate most of it.

and i don't have you red-flagged in my head for overuse of dull, uninspirational wording.

could it be you're a little hard on yourself with this list?

For me it's coming up with fresh ideas and perspectives. There are things I write about over and over--I believe we all do that, thematically speaking--but it's hard to find new ways to state our themes. I never fear that words will fail me because I can always fix words, but ideas and new ways to express them is generally my big challenge.

That's why it's as important to me to read (something 12 has always said) as it is to write because when I read new stuff I get ideas.

butters said:

we can only lead so far, with the natural musicalty of words, line-break application, and metre - there will always be variations on how a piece is read due to regional accents and dialect, and since you're trying to control things with asociated symbology/references then you're probably doing your fair share of trying to meet a reader half-way. all we can ever do is hone and hope.

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Well, on the upside, there is always the challenge ( or obsession compulsion ) to write something lyrically unique. I never recycle any rhyme scheme belonging to myself or anyone else.

The downside is that I usually end up with something similar to a Superbowl halftime show going on in my mind, while I have my doubts that any readers are tuning into the same spectacle.

butters said:

*chucks a ripe tomato at tsotha* booooo!
now come back and talk sense

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Well, I'm kinda serious. I was telling Angeline the other day, over PM... I've been pasting my stuff into a word document, and so far I have 75 "poems". And if you took those written (years ago) in my native language, that count would still be under 100. Intuition is all I have going for myself. That, and a way of communicating to people which is intrinsically convoluted and reliant on imagery (hi, INFJ here!).

So, shortcomings? I have a list, but I dare say that the worst deficiencies for anyone are those that cannot be seen. On the topic of blindness, I'll say this: I know what I enjoy reading, but I don't know if what I'm reading is a poem, much less a good poem. And I write whatever comes to my mind, whether it's a poem or not. That is not to say that I'm not concerned with the quality of what I'm writing—just that I'm not sufficiently skilled to judge. E.g., I learned not to capitalize every line halfway through the 30 in 30.

I like it whenever people give me feedback—positive or negative—because it helps me pinpoint what is right/wrong, and hopefully at some point in the future I'll know what the hell I'm doing.

I was going to start a feedback thread, recently, so I decided to search the forum for previous feedback threads, to see the format being used. I ended reading through dozens of threads. It was amusing to see others post their "masterpieces" here, ask for "feedback", and then throw a tantrum as it was picked apart in a harsh, but fair, way. I was also able to read what others here consider to be "poems", and "good poems".

In the end, I gave up on the feedback thread. I don't need help with one particular poem, I need some kind of far-reaching wisdom to judge what I'm overall doing right/wrong.

(If anyone wants to go through my poems in the 30/30 and tell me which are salvageable, I'll appreciate it. )

Tsotha said:

(If anyone wants to go through my poems in the 30/30 and tell me which are salvageable, I'll appreciate it. )

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Quite honestly, all of them are salvageable because:

The brilliance in a great poem is the editing.

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You have 30 poems, some might need a bit of polishing, others you may end up taking a line and making a whole new poem. That's what is great about 30 in 30, it gives you plenty to work with and editing practice

Tristesse2 said:

P-R-O-C-R-S-T-I-N-A-T-I-O-N
​

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...and proofreading? (procrAstination...)

I agree by the way. Poet Enemy #1.

lack of education,
the struggle to write anything from the third person view point
an inability to seriously look at and edit my writing!
too many live writes not enough serious writing!
tense shifts mid poem
spelling, grammar, punctuation

dammmmmnnnnn I think I might as well quit, the list keeps going

UnderYourSpell said:

Laziness. I find writing in rhyming forms so easy it more or less seems to come naturally, although I have been doing more free form since my early days here, I do need to stretch myself more.

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This is mine, along with an inability to put anything on paper when I'm in the middle. My stuff comes from emotional extremes. I don't actually have to be pushed to the edge. The memory of the edge will do, but fortunately, that is a limited amount of time in anyone's life.

I also have trouble with flower and kitten poems. I know poets who can knock out a couple pages of lyrics when they chrysanthemums are in bloom. I try that sort of stuff, but I have too many other things to do.

todski28 said:

too many live writes not enough serious writing!

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SADFACE.

Neonurotic said:

Quite honestly, all of them are salvageable because:

The brilliance in a great poem is the editing.

Click to expand...

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Thank you for this advice. Whom are you quoting? Or is it the odd anon wisdom?

Neonurotic said:

You have 30 poems, some might need a bit of polishing, others you may end up taking a line and making a whole new poem. That's what is great about 30 in 30, it gives you plenty to work with and editing practice

Click to expand...

Well, that is the thing. I'm not really sure what you're supposed to do while editing. Sure, I can replace the odd word, or change things around, or take the idea and rewrite from scratch. But are the changes good? Do they improve anything? And if so, what?

As for all being salvageable... Reading through the feedback threads, one of the best comments I read (I don't remember if it was posted by Champagne or Senna Jawa) was that the person needed not concern herself with the quality of her poem, because it wasn't a poem at all. That's a sobering thought for those who just want to sit down and write "poetry" in a carefree manner...

I like some of mine better than others. Some I really like, and some I have gained enough perspective to consider truly awful.

Thetis didn't dip me in the Styx
I'm vulnerable everywhere

HarryHill said:

Thetis didn't dip me in the Styx
I'm vulnerable everywhere

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but you are pretty waterproof

Tsotha said:

I'm not really sure what you're supposed to do while editing.

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Tsotha, why don't you post one of the BEST of your poems in a separate thread (on PF&D), and let's see what happens.

Best regards,

And what of you, senna jawa? what would you pinpoint as your poetic achilles' heel?
(or are you invincible? )

butters said:

And what of you, senna jawa? what would you pinpoint as your poetic achilles' heel?
(or are you invincible? )

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Hi butters!

Suddenly I feel like at a communist party meeting. Am I supposed to self-criticize (self-incriminate) myself?

Best regards, peace,