Tax the Rich?

How to cut taxes whilst retaining gov't services etc: Gov't owned profitable enterprises. Maybe not controlling "the means of production" of anything beyond auto license plates. I've suggested Sin Cities where customers voluntarily hand over lotsa money for otherwise illicit fun. Establish gov't monopolies on brothels, designer drugs, pleasure implants, pro sports arenas, donkey shows, ethical suicide, etc.

For balance, anyone entering a Sin City will see their health insurance premiums double. Some venues will mandate total loss of insurance coverage. This will filter the genepool, eh?

Taxes can be cut if we stop paying DoD for massive military programs that don't work and generals who can't win wars. Cut off an NSA that can't keep secrets. Kill huge agribiz price supports that drive up consumer costs. Quit filling private and public prisons with low-level perps of victimless crimes. Et fucking cetera.

BoyNextDoor said:

This is a false statement or at best, very incomplete statement. Some of the value created by the worker goes to their pay. The remainder, the surplus value they created, is appropriated by the corporation, owner, employer.

That surplus is where the wealth concentration is. That surplus is what should be taxed for the purpose of maintaining all of the infrastructure necessary for that corporation to keep taking the surplus.

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Well, you're part right. A company provides goods and/or services and takes in revenue. A large part of that revenue goes to workers' pay and benefits and another large part goes to COGS, if the company is a seller or manufacturer. There are many other expenses and, after they have been paid, the remainder of the revenue is profit. This is apparently what you call "surplus." This is the amount on which state and federal income taxes are paid.

Unless there is a profit, the company does not continue to operate. When this happens, the jobs disappear and the workers receive no more pay and benefits. All the businesses who depend on payments received from that business also lose, and may even have to cease operations also. This is an over-simplification, but I hope it illustrates how important profits are to the whole economy.

Hypoxia said:

How to cut taxes whilst retaining gov't services etc: Gov't owned profitable enterprises. Maybe not controlling "the means of production" of anything beyond auto license plates. I've suggested Sin Cities where customers voluntarily hand over lotsa money for otherwise illicit fun. Establish gov't monopolies on brothels, designer drugs, pleasure implants, pro sports arenas, donkey shows, ethical suicide, etc.

For balance, anyone entering a Sin City will see their health insurance premiums double. Some venues will mandate total loss of insurance coverage. This will filter the genepool, eh?

Taxes can be cut if we stop paying DoD for massive military programs that don't work and generals who can't win wars. Cut off an NSA that can't keep secrets. Kill huge agribiz price supports that drive up consumer costs. Quit filling private and public prisons with low-level perps of victimless crimes. Et fucking cetera.

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No need to do all that retarded shit you're suggesting to filter the gene pool.

Only thing needed for that is freedom and an open market. No need for all the universal nanny state, you and your ilk who need the nanny state to wipe their ass and feed them would be ULTRA fucked.

As for the agribiz subsidies they don't drive up consumer cost, they lower it to keep the US from flying apart at the seams. It's one of the things the government has done to kick the can of paying up down the road.

You pull the plug on those and watch the price of food fucking DEVASTATE this country like never before seen. 3/4 of Americas farms go under over night and the food shortage will cause MILLIONS to starve to death and many millions more will be eating themselves into the poor house. The cities will go 3rd world hell about 48 hrs after food stops showing up in everyone's driver window and the USA as it's been known will be over.

BotanyBoy said:

No need to do all that retarded shit you're suggesting to filter the gene pool.

Only thing needed for that is freedom and an open market. No need for all the universal nanny state, you and your ilk who need the nanny state to wipe their ass and feed them would be ULTRA fucked.

As for the agribiz subsidies they don't drive up consumer cost, they lower it to keep the US from flying apart at the seams. It's one of the things the government has done to kick the can of paying up down the road.

You pull the plug on those and watch the price of food fucking DEVASTATE this country like never before seen. 3/4 of Americas farms go under over night and the food shortage will cause MILLIONS to starve to death and many millions more will be eating themselves into the poor house. The cities will go 3rd world hell about 48 hrs after food stops showing up in everyone's driver window and the USA as it's been known will be over.

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But can you actually justify subsidies to tobacco growers.

Boxlicker101 said:

But can you actually justify subsidies to tobacco growers.

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Not any more than any other subsidies.

I'd like to see the ones in food even peeled back, I don't think the tax payer should be propping up an outdated agricultural system.

I think we need to make major changes to our agricultural systems and even if we were to do the socialist thing and throw money at that instead of letting markets handle it, that would be a great improvement over the current state of affairs.

I just think that one in particular should be done carefully and likely relatively slowly, because hungry people get fuckin' crazy.

BotanyBoy said:

No need to do all that retarded shit you're suggesting to filter the gene pool.

Only thing needed for that is freedom and an open market. No need for all the universal nanny state, you and your ilk who need the nanny state to wipe their ass and feed them would be ULTRA fucked.

As for the agribiz subsidies they don't drive up consumer cost, they lower it to keep the US from flying apart at the seams. It's one of the things the government has done to kick the can of paying up down the road.

You pull the plug on those and watch the price of food fucking DEVASTATE this country like never before seen. 3/4 of Americas farms go under over night and the food shortage will cause MILLIONS to starve to death and many millions more will be eating themselves into the poor house. The cities will go 3rd world hell about 48 hrs after food stops showing up in everyone's driver window and the USA as it's been known will be over.

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There's enough stored fat in Americans to last at least a week.

dan_c00000 said:

Dawn got fucking destroyed again. Does anyone else find it odd that "she" is replying to shit at 7am? Who's up that early trolling for evil rich people and corporations to have more money? I mean besides Orange Nazi supporters....

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Here I was, kind enough to recognize some improvement in you polemical skill, and you return to emotional and ineffective ad hominem diatribe. And I was so proud of you! Now you disappoint me.

I wonder why you need to question that I'm a woman. Is it that you cannot bear that you are constantly out-classed, both intellectually and rhetorically, by a female? Tell me, have you ever kissed a girl or even been on a date? How's mom doing, and does she still nag you to move out of her basement?

As to my early-rising habits, those of us who actually go out and contribute to society tend to do that. Maybe you should give it a try. If you started getting up earlier, you might even get a job you're not secretly embarrassed by.

BoyNextDoor said:

This is a false statement or at best, very incomplete statement. Some of the value created by the worker goes to their pay. The remainder, the surplus value they created, is appropriated by the corporation, owner, employer....

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The owners and investors must be sufficiently compensated for the risk they take in investing in the enterprise, or they stop investing. That destroys economies. Venezuela is a recent example of that, as well as the European PIGS.

As for paying for the societal infrastructure that allows all this to happen, allow me to reiterate the point everyone seems to want to avoid: The top 1% pay 39.5% of federal income taxes; the top 50% pay almost the entirety of these taxes. The lower 50% pay essentially no federal income taxes, some even get "refunds" exceeding what they pay in. Yet that same lower 50% still benefits from the infrastructure. By your logic, and I agree with it, the lower 50% should pay at least some federal income taxes.

tabt said:

A decrease in corporate taxes from 35% to 20%.

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There are two major reasons for this change. Both have been identified repeatedly by the President and Congressional leaders:

1) To spur economic gowth, as is discussed throughout this thread.

2) To make the USA more competitive compared with other highly developed industrialized countries.


D. Kurtzleben, FACT CHECK: Does The U.S. Have The Highest Corporate Tax Rate In The World?, NPR (Aug. 7, 2017). This lack of competition has caused many big corporations to move not just their manufacturing, but also their headquarters and corporate operations, overseas.

Boxlicker101 said:

But can you actually justify subsidies to tobacco growers.

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This is an example of what I called the government picking winners and losers. We should do away with all federal business subsidies ("corporate welfare").

phrodeau said:

There's enough stored fat in Americans to last at least a week.

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Survival and mass panic because all the instant gratification food troughs are out of food and you're totally fucked because of it are two totally different things.

And the % of those able to use that to survive the collapse of our agricultural base are in the minority. You and those like you generally refer to these people a paranoid, dumbfuckistani rednecks and hillbillies. The major metro areas will be horrifying.

BotanyBoy said:

Survival and mass panic because all the instant gratification food troughs are out of food and you're totally fucked because of it are two totally different things.

And the % of those able to use that to survive the collapse of our agricultural base are in the minority. You and those like you generally refer to these people a paranoid, dumbfuckistani rednecks and hillbillies. The major metro areas will be horrifying.

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So which one are you?

phrodeau said:

So which one are you?

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Well seeing as I don't think white men and the USA are the most horrible thing to ever happen and I prefer not living an unstable existence in a metro ant pile take a wild guess.

DawnODay said:

The U.S. has the highest top corporate tax rate at least among advanced economies. Compared with nations in the OECD — the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, a group of highly developed countries — the U.S. has the highest top corporate tax rate in the world. The top corporate tax rate in the U.S., a combination of federal and state and local taxes, is nearly 39 percent this year. That's well above most other OECD nations.​

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That's the nominal top rate, not what corporations actually pay after tax attorneys shift and squeeze beans. Many biggies pay little or no taxes.

Corporate tax cuts do not trickle-down into the economy. Only shit trickles down. Voodoo economics does not work. Does. Not. Work. You're welcome to waste effort trying to prove otherwise. And high-tax areas tend to be more productive, prosperous, and vibrant than low-tax areas where you likely would NOT like to reside.

DawnODay said:

Read up on the French Revolution and see what happens when a revolution is based on class envy.

E.g., The Reign of Terror; Napoleonic Wars; etc.​

Is that what you favor, Hypoxia?

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Where you here? http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=1407530

dan_c00000 said:

This was the point I made, which "she" didn't read.

Also, "she'll" forget that after cutting taxes Reagan raised them repeatedly throughout the rest of his two terms and the debt increased to the tune of trillions.

I'm also glad "she" pointed to the Heritage Foundation because if you look at the Freedom Index they create countries with higher tax rates are more "free" than America. I'm sure if Dawn was something more than a dick pretending to be a pussy "she'd" get that.

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You better pray it's a pussy and not a dick; coz whatever it may be, it's owning you royally; and you ain't got enough lube.

Hypoxia said:

.... And high-tax areas tend to be more productive, prosperous, and vibrant than low-tax areas where you likely would NOT like to reside.

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I posted a map of the shifting tide of population. People are now, and have been leaving the 'rust belt' for years. They are moving because jobs are moving, and because they are taxed to death. North Carolina should impose a travel ban on immigration from Michigan, New York, New Jersey, etc.... We're building like crazy here, while Detroit is returning to nature. High tax areas are slowly dying.... choking to death on taxation.

tabt said:

A decrease in corporate taxes from 35% to 20%.
Jesus.

Did Trump offer some rationalizations for that like BotanyBoy did,
or he just proceeded without any justifications? (You guys elected me, now I do what I want).

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DawnODay said:

There are two major reasons for this change. Both have been identified repeatedly by the President and Congressional leaders:

1) To spur economic gowth, as is discussed throughout this thread.

2) To make the USA more competitive compared with other highly developed industrialized countries.

The U.S. has the highest top corporate tax rate at least among advanced economies. Compared with nations in the OECD — the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, a group of highly developed countries — the U.S. has the highest top corporate tax rate in the world. The top corporate tax rate in the U.S., a combination of federal and state and local taxes, is nearly 39 percent this year. That's well above most other OECD nations.​

D. Kurtzleben, FACT CHECK: Does The U.S. Have The Highest Corporate Tax Rate In The World?, NPR (Aug. 7, 2017). This lack of competition has caused many big corporations to move not just their manufacturing, but also their headquarters and corporate operations, overseas.

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tabt said:

Thanks. And that sounds kike a reasonable move.

I'm just ranting here: Who opened Pandora's box?

A few decades ago there were few billionaires, now they're mushroom-ing all over the world. And next you know, China will reduce Corporate tax even further to compete with Trump, then Trump will have to decrease their taxes to 15% and soon Corporations will pay 5% in tax and we'll oay 50% to compensate for that.

As for us?
Half of us should just freakin' commit suicide, because we're too many and won't be able to compete with robots, and all we do is increase the CO2 and killing the Plannet. According to their rhetoric.

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A few points, if I may:

1: Remember that in the USA, at least, corporate investors are taxed at least twice on corporate profits. First, corporate profits are taxed at the corporate income tax rate. Then, when these profits are distributed to investors as dividends, they pay income tax at their personal income tax rates on that income. (They might be taxed a third time if inherited as part of a large estate, but that's a complex and subtle matter I won't address here, especially as I am somewhat ambivalent on the subject of inheritance taxes.)

2: There only seems to be more billionaires now. This is due to two things. One is inflation. Consider this chart:



Thus, someone with a "mere" $50,000,000 in 1913 was the equivalent of a billionaire today. Given the millions made by all manner of industrialists, rail barons, and, in my neck of the woods, lumber barons in the century leading up to WW I, I'd bet there were a lot more people worth >$50,000,000 back then than there are billionaires now.

The second reason there seem to be more billionaires now is that we are all just better informed, especially when it comes to sensational things. And saying someone is a "billionaire" at any time is a lot more sensational than saying someone is a "fifty-millionaire," even in 1913.

3: "As for us" and saving the planet, please see (click on graphic):



Seriously, even if the planet warms by the amount predicted by the most pessimistic of respectable scientists, that's about 1 degree C into the foreseeable future. That simply gets us back to the planetary conditions during the Renaissance and, before that, the time of the Classical Era, two of the most productive periods of human history. Personally, living in Wisconsin, I would like things a tad warmer.

Global warming, even if real, is not a big threat. It is just easy to politicize and turn into a tool for wealth distribution. There are far greater threats to the environment that politicians and grant-seeking scientists ignore, because they are harder to explain than supposed global warming. Also, because these threats come primarily from China, India, and other emerging and third world countries, they do not support income redistribution.

Ultimately, the most important thing for us to do as a species is colonize space and other worlds. That way, if something really bad does happen to Earth, whether it's our fault of not, the species and all we have accomplished will survive. We owe this to our descendants at least as much as a clean planet.

PrincepsCyberius said:

(edited)
3: "As for us" and saving the planet, please see (click on graphic):

Seriously, even if the planet warms by the amount predicted by the most pessimistic of respectable scientists, that's about 1 degree C into the foreseeable future. That simply gets us back to the planetary conditions during the Renaissance and, before that, the time of the Classical Era, two of the most productive periods of human history. Personally, living in Wisconsin, I would like things a tad warmer.

Global warming, even if real, is not a big threat. It is just easy to politicize and turn into a tool for wealth distribution. There are far greater threats to the environment that politicians and grant-seeking scientists ignore, because they are harder to explain than supposed global warming. Also, because these threats come primarily from China, India, and other emerging and third world countries, they do not support income redistribution.

Ultimately, the most important thing for us to do as a species is colonize space and other worlds. That way, if something really bad does happen to Earth, whether it's our fault of not, the species and all we have accomplished will survive. We owe this to our descendants at least as much as a clean planet.

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The earth has warmed about 0.93 degrees already, and we are witnessing major ecological damage right now.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ngeo3031

If humans can't manage to survive on the planet that gave rise to them, what makes you think they can survive on alien planets?

Trump open to dropping healthcare provision in Senate tax bill: aide

Health care, Scheamelth care, cut his taxes a few hundred mill, and he'll be happy!

phrodeau said:

The earth has warmed about 0.93 degrees already, and we are witnessing major ecological damage right now.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ngeo3031

If humans can't manage to survive on the planet that gave rise to them, what makes you think they can survive on alien planets?

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I don't think you need to worry much about it.. Humans are going to kill themselves off long before a climate catastrophe does..

PrincepsCyberius said:

1: Remember that in the USA, at least, corporate investors are taxed at least twice on corporate profits. First, corporate profits are taxed at the corporate income tax rate. Then, when these profits are distributed to investors as dividends, they pay income tax at their personal income tax rates on that income.

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If a corporation uses its profits for R&D, better benefits (like 401k matching), improved production and marketing, and careful expansion -- y'know, like tax cutters promise businesses will invest their windfalls -- then there's no second or third taxation, as there is if personal SALT deductions are axed. Also, how many corporations PAY the full rate? Are their tax attorneys incompetent?

2: There only seems to be more billionaires now. This is due to two things. One is inflation. <snip>
The second reason there seem to be more billionaires now is that we are all just better informed.

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I recently had reason to note USA dollar inflation from 1904 to 2016. It's about 2650% so US$100 then would be $2650 now. Does the world now have only 27 times more billionaires (or less) than then? If more than a 27-fold increase then yes, more inflation-adjusted billionaires exist now. And the rich then gloried is ostentation. How many billionaires remained hidden?

3: "As for us" and saving the planet... <snip> Global warming, even if real, is not a big threat. It is just easy to politicize and turn into a tool for wealth distribution. There are far greater threats to the environment that politicians and grant-seeking scientists ignore...

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Sorry, Pentagon and the insurance industry disagree as to the threat. Shifting climate patterns, the sort that drove Suharto's overthrow and Syria's civil war, will drive more mass migrations of refugees. Unmitigated, climate change will kill billions.

So climatologists worldwide are in on the conspiracy? No, not merely grant-seeking USA boogeymen... who could earn much more money in private industry. They all only want to boost their miserly stipends? Yeah, right.

Ultimately, the most important thing for us to do as a species is colonize space and other worlds. That way, if something really bad does happen to Earth, whether it's our fault of not, the species and all we have accomplished will survive. We owe this to our descendants at least as much as a clean planet.

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At last, a point where we agree completely. I consider myself a pragmatic Green. Rendering Terra unfit for living might be the only incentive strong enough to force humanity off-planet. We won't have John Varley's mysterious aliens sweeping humanity from Earth; we'll do it ourselves.

coachdb18 said:

High tax areas are slowly dying.... choking to death on taxation.

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I thought you put me on iggy. Guess not. Meanwhile, California has moved from the 7th to the 6th largest global economy. Unemployment is low. I drive various routes around the state and see it booming... unlike neighboring low-tax Nevada or stagnating Arizona. The latest I could find on state economies (2015) ranks NY as the 9th strongest, Calif at #11, Nevada at #31 and Arizona at #40. Worst is low-tax Mississippi. Try again.

Hypoxia said:

That's the nominal top rate, not what corporations actually pay after tax attorneys shift and squeeze beans. Many biggies pay little or no taxes.

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Good point. Here's a classic example: D. Greenfield, How Obama and Senate Democrats Freed GE from Paying Corporate Taxes, Frontpage (Jan 7, 2013).

This is why we need to reform the tax code. Rather than have high taxes with a bunch of loopholes, we need low tax rates with no special treatment for anyone.

Hypoxia said:

I thought you put me on iggy. Guess not. Meanwhile, California has moved from the 7th to the 6th largest global economy. Unemployment is low. I drive various routes around the state and see it booming... unlike neighboring low-tax Nevada or stagnating Arizona. The latest I could find on state economies (2015) ranks NY as the 9th strongest, Calif at #11, Nevada at #31 and Arizona at #40. Worst is low-tax Mississippi. Try again.

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It's also one of the most overpriced states in the union with million dollar single wide trailers, 12 dollar gallons of milk and 4$/gal gas.

For all of California's "progressiveness" they sure do fuckin' HATE poor AND middle class folks....elites only!!!

DawnODay said:

This is why we need to reform the tax code. Rather than have high taxes with a bunch of loopholes, we need low tax rates with no special treatment for anyone.

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First, cutting corporate taxes by raising taxes on working people sucks. Killing SALT, mortgage, and other personal deductions double-taxes earned incomes. Money from dividends and inheritances was not earned by the recipient. Apples & oranges, hey? And the corporate cashflows will enrich shareholders, many offshore, who won't likely be developing jobs in USA. Tax cuts don't grow economies. Trickle-down voodoo economics don't work.

Next, loopholes can "promote the general welfare" in specific ways. Mortgage deductions encourage home ownership -- y'know, the American Dream. SALT deductions keep local govt's solvent so they don't have to raise taxes to pay for public safety, schools, etc. Charity deductions promote charitable giving, away from the claws of gov't beasts. Et fucking cetera.

Do too many loopholes further enrich the rich and screw everyone else? Yup. And as long as a corporation is a person and cash is speech, it ain't gonna change. The first century of the American democratic republic imposed tight gov't regulation of corporations. We see what happens when they own gov't.

Hypoxia said:

First, cutting corporate taxes by raising taxes on working people sucks.

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Awwwww someone doesn't feel like paying their fair share!!!!

Hypocrite leftist......typical.

Bot and Dawn are getting absolutely ruined on this thread. Even fucking Forbes! came out against this travesty of a "tax plan" and Steve Forbes cheats on his taxes by declaring his one chicken a farm!