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Well it's Waffle House after all. This stuff is gonna happen.

beew said:
Yes, I agree with those who say that part of the issue is related to poor mental health care.

But I don't agree with part of what belisarius said , that deinstitutionalization plays a big role here.
What should we do? Lock'em all up forever and throw away the key? And don't forget, only a very, very small percent of psychiatric patients pose a potential risk to society.. The majority of criminals don't have major mental health disorders.

Richard and Ogg made good points regarding the poor funding of Mental Health, which means poor follow-up in community. ( Obamacare is almost as bad as it's predecessor. )
Belisarius was right too. As if poor funding wasn't enough, the US Mental Health Act makes it very hard for clinicians to intervene more aggressively when they have concerns about specific patients. Yes, the NHS might be underfunded too, Ogg, but unlike the US, the legal part gives clinicians more leverage when it comes to treating patients.




But in this case, there were two factors which probably played a role in the tragedy.

1. poor 'mental health care'..
2. the gun culture.
The FBI took his guns away, probably in consult with his doctor. But his father gave them back to him.
Like she said:
Click to expand...

What "poor" mental health care. Be explicit. There is NO evidence that health care was ordered. There is NO evidence that health care was even sought. How can that which was never administered be "Poor?"
 
Taint_mAnn said:
What a stupid paki. He always recaps what 1st world people say trying to look smart or in the know. Pathetic as always.
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Yeah, your insults really hit the nerve.
Since I'm neither Asian, nor do I come from a third world country.
They even make me :rolleyes: or :D sometimes, because you look like a buffoon or a puppy.

Why don't you follow the GB tradition and call me fat or a retard instead?
 
He self-identifies as a sovereign citizen, so there is no doubt that he is mentally ill.
 
bellisarius said:
What "poor" mental health care. Be explicit. There is NO evidence that health care was ordered. There is NO evidence that health care was even sought. How can that which was never administered be "Poor?"
Click to expand...

I don't know the specifics of this case, so you might be right.

I was referring to the general aspects of the problem, which most discussions focused on.
 
beew said:
I don't know the specifics of this case, so you might be right.

I was referring to the general aspects of the problem, which most discussions focused on.
Click to expand...

And again, you have no evidence of that. Mental health care is readily available in the US. Not necessarily in Podunk IA., but small towns have a way of dealing with the nut cases on their own. But in the larger towns and cities, it's there and available. There is an issue regarding cost, but that is for a separate discussion. There is also the issue of 'quality', which is the province to the state that regulates and certifies the mental health providers.

That brings us to administration. Those that seek help from a mental health provider are for the most part quite sane and self-aware. Confused, going through a temporary crisis, whatever, they are at least aware enough to know that they need some help and that in and of itself is a huge step.

The truly fucked up are not only unaware that they're fucked up, they actually believe that all of their delusions are in fact real. And because they are 'real' they have no need of treatment, at least in their own mind. As a matter of fact in their own mind it's the rest of us that are insane. These are the folks that are truly in need of treatment, so how do you get them there? And you have to get them there before you can argue whether the treatment is 'poor' or not.
 
bellisarius said:
And again, you have no evidence of that. Mental health care is readily available in the US. Not necessarily in Podunk IA., but small towns have a way of dealing with the nut cases on their own. But in the larger towns and cities, it's there and available. There is an issue regarding cost, but that is for a separate discussion. There is also the issue of 'quality', which is the province to the state that regulates and certifies the mental health providers.

That brings us to administration. Those that seek help from a mental health provider are for the most part quite sane and self-aware. Confused, going through a temporary crisis, whatever, they are at least aware enough to know that they need some help and that in and of itself is a huge step.

The truly fucked up are not only unaware that they're fucked up, they actually believe that all of their delusions are in fact real. And because they are 'real' they have no need of treatment, at least in their own mind. As a matter of fact in their own mind it's the rest of us that are insane. These are the folks that are truly in need of treatment, so how do you get them there? And you have to get them there before you can argue whether the treatment is 'poor' or not.
Click to expand...

man isnt getting them there part of treatment?
 
RocketLauncher said:
I don't think Thomas Becket would be driving anyone, since he's been dead for a long time.
Samuel Beckett, tho? Srsly? I hope you're not pulling my leg cuz Beckett is my fourth favourite playwright.
Click to expand...
My bad. But otherwise true.
 
bellisarius said:
1. And again, you have no evidence of that. Mental health care is readily available in the US. Not necessarily in Podunk IA., but small towns have a way of dealing with the nut cases on their own. But in the larger towns and cities, it's there and available. There is an issue regarding cost, but that is for a separate discussion. There is also the issue of 'quality', which is the province to the state that regulates and certifies the mental health providers.

That brings us to administration. Those that seek help from a mental health provider are for the most part quite sane and self-aware. Confused, going through a temporary crisis, whatever, they are at least aware enough to know that they need some help and that in and of itself is a huge step.

2. The truly fucked up are not only unaware that they're fucked up, they actually believe that all of their delusions are in fact real. And because they are 'real' they have no need of treatment, at least in their own mind. As a matter of fact in their own mind it's the rest of us that are insane. These are the folks that are truly in need of treatment, so how do you get them there? And you have to get them there before you can argue whether the treatment is 'poor' or not.
Click to expand...

1. That's what I was told: that the Mental Health Legislation in the US is more 'permissive' and much less paternalistic than in other first world countries.
The US has been historically more focused on rights and individual autonomy, but in such cases it ends up doing patients more harm than good.

Mine could be a wrong impression, so I should have been more tentative when expressing myself.

2. Yes, but they do have families who notice things, and in the case of those already 'in the system' they should have case managers who catch up with them periodically, and all sorts of stuff.
Many people claim that the US insurance system doesn't allocate sufficient resources for that (apparently neither does the UK one, see ogg's post as well).
 
beew said:
1. That's what I was told: that the Mental Health Legislation in the US is more 'permissive' and much less paternalistic than in other first world countries.
The US has been historically more focused on rights and individual autonomy, but in such cases it ends up doing patients more harm than good.

Mine could be a wrong impression, so I should have been more tentative when expressing myself.

2. Yes, but they do have families who notice things, and in the case of those already 'in the system' they should have case managers who catch up with them periodically, and all sorts of stuff.
Many people claim that the US insurance system doesn't allocate sufficient resources for that (apparently neither does the UK one, see ogg's post as well).
Click to expand...

And now we're right back to the courts, aren't we? So a judge orders someone to treatment, how is that enforced? Throw them in jail for contempt of court if they refuse to go and where's the treatment now? The bar for incarcerating someone in a mental institution is very high in the US now so that path is unlikely until AFTER the individual has committed some hideous act. And then everyone sits around pointing the finger of blame instead of finding solutions, and any solution is NOT going to be simplistic.
 
bellisarius said:
And now we're right back to the courts, aren't we? So a judge orders someone to treatment, how is that enforced? Throw them in jail for contempt of court if they refuse to go and where's the treatment now? The bar for incarcerating someone in a mental institution is very high in the US now so that path is unlikely until AFTER the individual has committed some hideous act. And then everyone sits around pointing the finger of blame instead of finding solutions, and any solution is NOT going to be simplistic.
Click to expand...

We're both on the same page here, I agree with everything that you said.

That + the insurance system which doesn't allow for allocation of more resources towards such cases.
 
Lol…

Btw
I'm not saying this to defend my 'racism' or whatever retarded things our SJWers might have to say

I just watched the press conference of the guy who prevented more killings.
I just loved the guy! He was so humble and young and cute "We went clubbing and then we wanted to eat some waffles etc etc. " :D
 
phrodeau said:
Spin, spin, spin, like your eyes.

The topic addressed was non-firearms related mass murder, which is four or more.
Click to expand...

Including injured... or did you already forget how how the anti-gunners like to spin it?

At least be consistent with your propaganda.
 
RocketLauncher said:
Really? They quantify mass murders?
Click to expand...

When you need to make an anti-gun point, they do!

Very few of the people clamoring for gun control care about murders, or other people. They are driven by emotion and fear.

They are the anti-abortionists of the center-left.
 
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